Considering first PCP - Flashpup?

[puddleglum]

The first thing I ask is that you all talk me out of this, for the sake of my checkbook. But assuming I am not swayed ...

I am thinking about a PCP, with squirrel hunting as my primary consideration. I have never hunted but have always wanted to (I like eating, I like being outside, I like shooting; seems like it should be a fit). I am turning 40 this year, so maybe it is time, and bushy-tails seem like a good place to start (bunnies as well, should I get a shot at one). I have a Crosman 1322 carbine that I modded and it is a ton of fun but, if I am going out in the woods looking for tree rats, I like the idea of a repeater that I don't need to pump. I also enjoy putting holes in paper, and having an excuse to mess around with a chronograph to figure out fill points and shot curves sounds like a ton of fun too.

I would want to do this on something of a budget; under $400 for the gun. I want a decent trigger, decent power for hunting, and weight not much over 7 lbs, pre-scoped. I have looked at a lot of reviews and videos of PCPs under $400, and the one that strikes my fancy most is the Hatsan Flashpup. The Gamo Urban looks almost as tempting. There is also the M-rod carbine as a classic favorite.

Edit: I have wrist issues, that I am pretty sure will not get better with age, and I find I prefer a more vertical, pistol style, grip.

Advantages I see of the Flashpup are:
-.25 option for wind resistance, since I will be hunting in WI just a few miles inland from Lake Michigan, and there is usually a breeze
-More power offers potential for longer shots at game
-Bullpup's compact size will be easy to maneuver through the woods
-Very nice balance of a bullpup design
-Super weird looking, in a very good way

Advantages I see of the Urban are:
-Seems to have better fit and finish
-May be easier to shoot, at least at first, as bullpups can take more practice to steady the light front end
-Cheaper to shoot in .22

Marauder pistol:
-Looks like a lot of fun
-Very compact and easy to carry
-Some customization options
-Capable at limited ranges, but seems like it would limit the shots at tree rats I could take

I welcome any feedback on my reasoning, other viewpoints more experienced people have, and maybe suggestions for airguns I may not have investigated yet.

Thank you,
pg

[SwampHunter]

Interested to see the replies you get, have been looking at those two myself! As far as the Prod goes, I have owned one of those, while I loved it , I would not choose it for hunting over around 30yrds. It can be made to do a lot better but it will cost money. My solution, buy the flashpup used, there is one in the classified section now and buy the urban when they go on sale for $200 again!

[Lefusil]

I recently got my first PCP.  Still figuring it out, but its a significant increase in accuracy over my break barrel, and a boatload of fun to shoot.
I asked a similar question to yours before I got it, and received lots of good advice here.  I think the best was “go with your heart”.
I eneded up doing just that, and I have no regrets.

[VaporTrail]

I recently just got my first PCP as well, a Hatsan Bullboss. The journey has just begun, but if I may offer my observations:

1) If you have wrist issues that may get progressively worse, I would also figure in a SCBA tank into your budget. Pumping is good if your wrists can handle it, but from my experience so far, a shooting day is cut in half by pumping times. Just the other day I pumped from about 120BAR back up to 200. That took me 15 minutes and about 130-135 pumps. That's with a 1 second stop at the top and the bottom and deliberate strokes both up and down. If your wrists are bugging you now, wait until you're supporting half your weight on them pushing down on the bar.

2) Compare weights on the Flash and the Flashpup. My Bullboss is nice and compact, but on my jungle walks I often clear about 2 miles. The Bullboss is light enough for me (~11lbs) being a big strapping lad, but carrying it 2 miles will definitely make it's weight noticeable, no matter how young and strong you are. I laugh about it now, but I thought my Gamo Magnum was heavy until I started lugging around the Bullboss. Now the Magnum feels like a carbine.

3) As for pellet choices, bear in mind that some of the .22 pellet selections are as heavy as some .25 offerings. Currently the ammo of choice is JSB 25gr pellets since that keeps the speed down to usable ranges. 21gr Baracudas are unstable at the speeds the rifle is throwing them out at, unless you're talking about towards the lower end of the fill effectiveness. At 130-120BAR, it was launching the Cudas at 900FPS. Anything lighter (18-14gr) and I get that supersonic crack; I also get wild pellets. Yes, I can turn down the HS to lower that FPS, but 50FPE is nice to have since it allows a little more range and bigger quarry. You also need to take into account .25 availability versus .22.

4) I will be getting another PCP and the Urban or the Flash are what I'm eyeing. I don't mind the bullpup configuration, but IMHO, a well balanced carbine can also be just as effective in terms of mobility. My 10/22 is a lightweight thumper, and I often have to resist the urge to grab it over my airguns. But, it's definitely a different kind of challenge to use the air rifles. It's frustrating at times (a lot, actually), but the feeling of accomplishment when you achieve what you set out to do is quite gratifying.

5) Take everything I said with a grain of salt and FWIW to you. Everyone's experience will be different, so do what you feel would serve you best. I've used a long rifle and a bullpup, so a carbine will be next on the list followed by a pistol.

Hope this helps!

[MaineJim1821]

Well if you prefer a more vertical, pistol style grip then you will love the Urban and i dont find it hard to hold steady at all.
They only mod i have done to mine is to replace the trigger adjustment screw with a longer one.
Accuracy is there ,i'm talking .300 inch at 35 yds and on a widless day  a half an inch  or a little under is doable with JSB 18.13s.

[Toddspeed]

I’m going to +1 MaineJim and recommend the Urban. I’ve had mine for over a year now and I think it’s great. I shoot at 40 yards, and 25 yards,  At 40 I regularly (maybe 1 out 6 groups) shoot <3/8” groups. So the accuracy is there, I’m still learning how to get the best of what the refle can do. Plus, it does very well with Crosman domes so you can save a lot on pellets.

I don’t have the other guns you mentioned, but I agree with you that according to all the videos, threads and articles the Urban has a + $500 fit and finish compared with other price point PCPs.

As stated above, how you plan to fill is important. If your thinking cheap pump, then the Urban looks even better. With an only 105cc tube, it’s very easy to pump, which is going to make you enjoy shooting more. Mine is currently set to about 20 ftlbs of energy, and I get 20 shots out of 40 pumps. I could get 30 good shots, but the only reason I don’t is because 40 pumps is nothing, but 60 seems to take away some of the fun.

If you plan to modify the ‘you know what’ out of you first PCP, don’t get the Urban. The platform seems to ideal for low 20s ftlb energy and lower, but not well suited for anything over 25. The 10mm trigger screw is a must, but other than that there’s not a lot of modifying to be done. Of course some can turn anything into a project, but as far as performance, this is no Mrod, or QB.

I wish I could spend thousands of dollars building a collection of air rifles, but that’s not going to happen. I love shooting, I do it almost every week, and I don’t have any regrets that I chose the Urban.

[Pelletjunkie]

I am with Vaportrail on this. First and foremost, if you have wrist issues, your $400 gun budget is going to get eaten up almost completely by any of the alternative ways of hand pumping. I am in great shape but pumping is no joke. I couldn’t imagine doing it with wrist or knee issues.

[Airnut]

I would recommend the Urban, no question. But if you have issues with knees, shoulders, back, ect. Then hand pumping any gun is out of the question. As stated above. You will need a fill source be it a tank or compressor or both! And that will more than likely double your budget. Just some food for thought. Good luck in what ever you decide to do!!

[SteveP-52]

Have the Flashpup and in .25. Not hard to fill (my Galatian takes twice the effort with the bigger cylinder) and I do with a hand pump even after having 3 knee surgeries, lower back and right shoulder. Definitely need some better weather to get it out and put it through it's paces and over the chrony but not regretting the money I spent buying it.

Lightweight front end I solved with a front grip that doubles as a weapons light and if I want to shoot from my table, it's easy enough to swap out for my bipod.

[Johnsairmadness]

I have had both, here is my info.-

Flash pup .22cal.- Great little light pup. Extremely and surprisingly accurate. Can easily adjust the HSt for optima performance and I got 40 shots per fill. Would be easy to pump with such small air cyl. Trigger needs some tender loving care and can be adjusted.

Urban- Decent accuracy. Shoulders very well. trigger will need a mod done to it. HST can easily be adjusted. Have mine set at 750fps for 50 shots. Magazines are pricey. I did find them on amazon for $35.

If I would have to pick between these 2 it would be the Flash. 

[puddleglum]

Appreciate all of your thoughts and input. Thank you, all.

I am not too worried about pumping. My wrists seem to do fine with strenuous activity, so long as they are positioned correctly. For instance, I can do push ups on closed fists without trouble. This makes me think the pump should be fine if I can keep my wrists straight and locked while bearing down my upper body weight. I am over 6' and weigh 220 (trying to get down to 180, so the exercise should do me some good) so I should be fine to pump. Of course more shots between pumping is better; keep the reward:work ratio high.

And now for something completely different (queue the Monty Python music)

I just found a good number of threads with people reporting success, even long term success, with inexpensive hand pumps off ebay/amazon. If this is a possibility, and I don't necessarily need to budget for something like a Hill Mark 4 pump, I could look a little higher in price for the rifle.

I also had an epiphany: the Marauder in synthetic is pretty close to the weight I am looking for, and the new Gen 2 stock has a fairly vertical grip, which is what I prefer. I was thinking of the marauder as just the kind of beastie I would like if it weren't an 8 1/2 pound, traditional angled grip gun, but the SynthRod might be right up my alley. Probably in a .22 for higher shot count since I will realistically be spending more time practicing that hunting.

So now I have another dog in the race.

Thoughts?

[Rallyshark]

I'm voting Flashpup, given you want power, and they can certainly make it right out of the box.  The trigger is fully adjustable too.  I would also recommend looking into the regular Flash as well!  It is slightly lighter still, and the grip on it works out pretty well for me(and $100 cheaper).  You will appreciate the light weight on the Flash or Flashpup, especially for hunting.  As I mentioned they can make good power out of the box.  They can make even more, if you like to "tinker"   The .22 can easily get over 50fpe with some tuning, and the .25 can easily do 55+fpe with some tuning. 

I COMPLETELY understand your wrist issues, because I have the same problem.  I too, can do pushups close fisted, but not with an open hand.  You'll be fine hand pumping.  I've heard of people having good luck with the cheap pumps too, but I haven't personally tried one.  I have problems shooting standard stocked guns like the Galatian, due to my wrist, but the Flash doesn't bother it at all, fwiw. 

All of that being said, I certainly don't have anything against the Urban.  I'm mainly going on your wanting power.  I don't put the Marauder in the same category of the Flash or Urban.  It is pretty heavy, and more expensive(+ more $$ if you go down the aftermarket rabbit hole).  There is a TON of aftermarket parts for them, and they are good guns, but apples and oranges in this case I think. 

[Lefusil]

I just found a good number of threads with people reporting success, even long term success, with inexpensive hand pumps off ebay/amazon. If this is a possibility, and I don't necessarily need to budget for something like a Hill Mark 4 pump, I could look a little higher in price for the rifle.

I am using one of the inexpensive hand pumps.  It's still new, but seems reasonably well built and so far it is working just fine.  It came with some spare bits to rebuild/maintain it.  The instructions are not easy to read, it's in English, but it's a real word salad.  Pumps up my 130cc air tube from 100 to 200 bar in about 50-60 strokes.

[Pelletjunkie]

Now that you added the Marauder to your list, that would make the decision easier. Parts are only a phone call away. All the orings in the gun can be found in a hardware store. That is a very comfortable feeling that you won't have with some of your other choices. No, I don't have a Mrod but I do own several guns that if they break, things will be much more complicated for me than a Crosman owner.

[gendoc]

I have had both, here is my info.-

Flash pup .22cal.- Great little light pup. Extremely and surprisingly accurate. Can easily adjust the HSt for optima performance and I got 40 shots per fill. Would be easy to pump with such small air cyl. Trigger needs some tender loving care and can be adjusted.

Urban- Decent accuracy. Shoulders very well. trigger will need a mod done to it. HST can easily be adjusted. Have mine set at 750fps for 50 shots. Magazines are pricey. I did find them on amazon for $35.

If I would have to pick between these 2 it would be the Flash.

well said !!     

[puddleglum]

I think I would like the Synrod even if it is a little heavier than my original criteria, but is the dreaded "Crosman Barrel Lottery" still a problem? Have they been putting out the intermittent lemon barrels in the last couple years, or are they now consistently accurate?

[robertr]

 Stay away from the Marauder if you want to keep your budget down. Stock it is an average rifle. More pumping to fill also.

[Hawkeye51]

Puddleglum

I have both the P-rod & the Flashpup in 22.  They are both fun. The P-rod is super light weight & if you enjoy tinkering around, can be tuned to be a nice hunter from 35 yards or so. Lower shot count, smaller air reservoir. Flash pup great shooter right out of the box, can buy a referb for about $275.00.  I bought a referb and have no regrets, everything looks and works as it should. Very accurate.

I would like to throw out another thought. The Nova Liberty, from American Tactical Imports, is a full featured PCP that is regulated, accurate and IMHO well worth the money.  It can be purchased in synthetic stock (with discount code) for less than $250.00.  Tunable to shoot 18 gr .22cal pellets around 900 fps or better.

I have a Nova Liberty in wood (a little heavier ) and I love it.  There is a thread of 80+ pages on this gun titled "Any US importers carrying this gun?"  & several others about Nova Liberty etc.

I think the  discount code is "HardAir20",  but I'm not sure. Someone else will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong. You have to call on the phone & talk to sales to get the discount.  If you're not already familiar with this gun, you should check it out before you pull the trigger. Lots of YouTube videos.  Use the savings to get a cheap compressor. Good luck & happy hunting.

[anti-squirrel]

I skipped everyone's posts since my advice is always the same:
Figure out the exact purpose for your first PCP, compile a list of PCP guns that you are interested in, then put everything on a spreadsheet and let logic dictate what you should buy.  The gun that meets the greatest number of requirements is the on you should buy.

And if you cannot abide by the logic, then you are letting personal inclination AKA "feelings" dictate what you buy, so no matter what anybody here says, it won't matter since it will be based on feelings.

[puddleglum]

Thank you all for your input, lots of useful and informative advice.

I did a lot of research this weekend and I think the Flash is probably my best option.

It all pretty much comes down to ease of hand pumping, so it is between the smaller reservoirs of the Flash and the Urban. Since I would want a few extra magazines, I am thinking of the Urban as having a noticeably higher price sticker than it initially seems. The trigger on the Flash also seems to be a bit more adjustable. Finally, add in that I would like the extra power and wind resistance of the .25 caliber pellets, and I think the Flash wins out for my needs/wants.
(How is my logic so far, anti-squirrel? )

Now for the personal inclination, AKA "feelings". Between the two iterations of the Flash, the bullpup version and traditional carbine version, I definitely am drawn more toward the Flashpup. However I noticed in the AEAC review video that he found it could not be cocked while prone, since rear placement of the bolt does not allow enough leverage in that position. Not being able to make a quick follow up shot while in the most accurate field position would be a deal breaker for me, and would mean it would be time to look at the skeletonized plastic stock.

Has anyone else that has a Flashpup found that it can't be cocked while laying prone?