1000 yards 2 inch group or less



Author Topic: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less  (Read 1550 times - 1 votes) 
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Offline triggertreat

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2018, 01:36:21 PM »
Great challenge.  At least you would know just how well you could do at that distance when giving it your best effort.  If you actually were able to pull if off, wouldn't that be the talk...Good luck.
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Offline Kmanca1

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2018, 07:13:37 PM »
There's a guy on YT -upnorthairgunner--
He wanted to do basically the same thing.   
Texan .357.
It took him a bunch of tries to even hit a 21" target.


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Offline Blue

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2018, 07:31:31 PM »
There's a guy on YT -upnorthairgunner--
He wanted to do basically the same thing.   
Texan .357.
It took him a bunch of tries to even hit a 21" target.

Yep, Chris is a member here.

I remember watching that video and another where the target was propped on a branch in the water a little closer.  Absolutely great achievement!

And yeah, I remember a lot of shots to just figure out where things were landing. There's a lot going on between trigger and target at that distance.

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Offline Blue

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2018, 07:37:57 PM »
Look at the rail he's got his scope on.  It's more like lobbing artillery shells than shooting a rifle.

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Offline AncientSword

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2018, 07:43:43 PM »
It can be done a lot easier with a PB and it is possible. It isn't common even in that world.  Good shooting is 1 MOA per 100 yards.  That would be roughly 10" (or in reality 10.47") . 

A lot of guys in the PB world are shooting very high dollar guns to get their sub-moa groups. At least they can just use a good scope with a normal 20 MOA base. Taking a PB to 2500 or 3000 yards starts to become closer to what we are trying to do at 1000.

Most people come in and ask if they can do it, I get the idea and the desire. I have the same desire, but even hitting a large target at 1000 yards is good for us. Let's be real.

I will just throw this out there. It is going to cost you a ton of money. Know that up front. Carl has been shooting his long range stuff with guns that I believe run in the $3500+ range.

One of the biggest issues to solve is with how you are going to see your target at that distance. You need a great scope with a lot of adjustment and some kind of adjustable scope mount or base.

A couple option are something like a cold shot adjustable scope base or even better would be a Charlie Tarac unit to get anywhere close. There are no scopes with 300 MOA of adjustment, which is what Carl had dialed in at 1100 yards.  A cold shot base runs a minimum of $430 and Charlie Taco units are $1700.

Carl and Chris were both using the cold shot base.

Not saying it is impossible, just very, very improbable.

Change the OP question to can I shoot 2 MOA at 1000 and we have something really worth discussing.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 07:46:31 PM by AncientSword »
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Offline regularguy11B

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2018, 07:50:31 PM »
I think the way forward to be successful at this kind of shooting is to use bracketing.  As in, learn to adjust fire the same way you would in the Army, and apply the same priciples.
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Offline regularguy11B

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2018, 07:52:37 PM »
Look at the rail he's got his scope on.  It's more like lobbing artillery shells than shooting a rifle.

Blue

Sure is.  Trajectory is almost like a mortar.
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Offline Wildcatter

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2018, 08:20:59 PM »
Image if Orville and Wilbur Wright had some of THESE guys on their side.  You go, boy.  Logic and science may dictate it can't be done, but that's no what the human mind is all about.
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Offline truckr6969

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2018, 09:14:05 PM »
Thank you all for your input. You should know I have done the math and realize it is not going to be easy but that doesn't mean I'm going to give up and not try... 146gr spitzer has a bc of .456 and with a muzzle velocity of 1300 fps and a zero at 500 yards I will need 89.56 moa at 1000 yards and the bullet will still be traveling at 812fps at target. Your input is strengthening my resolve to achieve this goal.  Thanks again!!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 09:26:42 PM by truckr6969 »
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Offline regularguy11B

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2018, 09:48:32 PM »
Thank you all for your input. You should know I have done the math and realize it is not going to be easy but that doesn't mean I'm going to give up and not try... 146gr spitzer has a bc of .456 and with a muzzle velocity of 1300 fps and a zero at 500 yards I will need 89.56 moa at 1000 yards and the bullet will still be traveling at 812fps at target. Your input is strengthening my resolve to achieve this goal.  Thanks again!!

The long range airgun game is all about achieving the impossible.  Only way you get there is by trying.  Somebody is going to do it one day, might as well be you!
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Offline rsterne

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2018, 11:00:55 PM »
Over 500 FPE in .308 cal will require you to run Helium.... I assume you have already factored that in?.... Also, your choice of 1300 fps may help flatten the trajectory, but your wind drift will be much worse, and IMO that is the most difficult thing to deal with at long ranges....

I designed a 200 gr. Bob's Boattail I called the "Whiteout" (like a Blackout, but from the Great White North, as I am in Canada). The guys who built the gun were from Carolina, I believe, and they started with an Extreme Big Bore running on 4500 psi Helium.... They found the best accuracy was right around 1000 fps, although they could push that big bullet nearly Supersonic.... It was quite an accomplishment to duplicate the ballistics of the .300 AAC Blackout (Whisper) round on air....

Here is a chart showing what happens with the wind drift at only 200 yards.... The drift at 1400 fps MV is about 50% more than at 900 fps....



Trajectory is mostly about velocity, whereas reducing wind drift is mostly about BC, and not shooting Supersonic (unless you can do 3000 plus).

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Offline Tonykarter

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2018, 11:23:31 PM »
Go for it.  But work your way out.  I'd love to see you do the cloverleaf thing at 100, 200, 300 and see how it progresses from there.  Should be a fun process.  See just how far out 2" can be maintained. 
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Offline AncientSword

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2018, 01:16:18 AM »
Thank you all for your input. You should know I have done the math and realize it is not going to be easy but that doesn't mean I'm going to give up and not try... 146gr spitzer has a bc of .456 and with a muzzle velocity of 1300 fps and a zero at 500 yards I will need 89.56 moa at 1000 yards and the bullet will still be traveling at 812fps at target. Your input is strengthening my resolve to achieve this goal.  Thanks again!!

I would love to see you do it.  I never said you couldn't, I just think it is way harder than people want to think it is. There are many guys who want to do similar. Carl is the only one I have seen really pull it off well and he isn't close to 2" at 1000. He is a champion .50 BMG shooter as well, so he has some serious experience behind him, along with some ego.

Just wondering, where are you getting the BC for your bullet? I haven't seen an airgun bullet with that high of a BC.  BC is velocity dependent, so is that based off the bullet and your velocity or just pulled from some bullet specs?

Also, what scope are you planning to use?

Last but not least, how are you going to push your Texan to 1300 fps? Planning to use helium? I saw that Chris shot some helium out of his big Texan, but I am not aware of a lot of guys doing it. Not sure on how safe helium is in an Airforce gun. I would want more solid answers on that before I tried it personally.  Maybe you are going to run an AAO setup off of 4500 psi? It is an interesting undertaking, I will be subscribed to the thread.
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Offline DHunter

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2018, 04:57:39 AM »
Bob, do you have your own website with all these graphs you post, or can you give a link to a site that has all this gun science?  I always find it interesting.  I'm an engineer, electronics, not mechanical but I eat this stuff up.  So thanks.

Quote
Not sure on how safe helium is in an Airforce gun.
I can't think of anything about helium that would put any additional stress on any part of the gun.  It's just that with helium being lighter, you're not wasting so much of your energy accelerating the gas itself, so the energy you save becomes available to push the pellet or bullet.  It would be like reducing the weight of a car or other vehicle.  At full throttle, there won't be any additional torque on the drive shaft, axle, transmission, etc., but the same force with less mass results in better acceleration.
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Offline truckr6969

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2018, 07:27:41 AM »
I'm gonna be using either a vortex viper hs lr 6-24x50 or an Athlon ares etr 4.5-30x56 both are ffp scopes. The bc comes from a bc calculator.
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Offline Frank in Fairfield

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2018, 09:56:27 AM »
Trajectory is the least of your worries.
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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2018, 12:22:06 PM »
Bob, do you have your own website with all these graphs you post, or can you give a link to a site that has all this gun science?  I always find it interesting.  I'm an engineer, electronics, not mechanical but I eat this stuff up.  So thanks.

Quote
Not sure on how safe helium is in an Airforce gun.
I can't think of anything about helium that would put any additional stress on any part of the gun.  It's just that with helium being lighter, you're not wasting so much of your energy accelerating the gas itself, so the energy you save becomes available to push the pellet or bullet.  It would be like reducing the weight of a car or other vehicle.  At full throttle, there won't be any additional torque on the drive shaft, axle, transmission, etc., but the same force with less mass results in better acceleration.

You might be right, I was thinking about charging to high psi on helium, like I do in my Extreme and Badger ... No one mentioned what charge they were taking things to.

I do believe that helium will put more stress on parts in general. Probably won't be an issue on an Airforce. Don't think I would want to do it consistently on a cheaper made gun.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 01:31:37 PM by AncientSword »
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Offline rsterne

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2018, 02:08:14 PM »
I don't have a website with all my graphs, they are simply saved in Photobucket, and on my computer.... I just pull up what I need....

Quote
I can't think of anything about helium that would put any additional stress on any part of the gun.  It's just that with helium being lighter, you're not wasting so much of your energy accelerating the gas itself, so the energy you save becomes available to push the pellet or bullet.  It would be like reducing the weight of a car or other vehicle.  At full throttle, there won't be any additional torque on the drive shaft, axle, transmission, etc., but the same force with less mass results in better acceleration.

I know Brent at Extreme Airguns would disagree with me, but I agree with the statement in quotes above.... Yes, the overall FPE in the BULLET increases, but that comes from the gas being 1/7th the mass.... In a high powered big-bore, the air mass equals or exceeds the bullet mass.... Air at 3000 psi weighs 60 gr. per CI.... In a .308 cal 34" Texan barrel at 4500 psi (gun modified for safety) the air would weigh about 210 gr.... The same amount of Helium, at the same pressure, only about 30 gr.... Brent posted a photo of a bolt in a .308 running Helium that blew back and destroyed the receiver.... but because of the solid construction of his Extremes, there was no other damage (or injuries).... I think it likely the bolt was not properly in battery, rather than the damage caused by using Helium....

Bob
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Offline Wildcatter

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2018, 02:28:26 PM »
Here's a weird thought for you all....helium seems to be the go to gas for trying to get more speed and power while air gunning.  Just heard last night that there is a helium shortage - it's not a man made gas and needs to be mined far below the earth's surface and we're experiencing a shortage right now.  Seems that helium may be working itself out of the air gunning world...
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Offline aceflier

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Re: 1000 yards 2 inch group or less
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2018, 03:00:09 PM »
Id shoot for 2 at 100 first. Then Figure out how you are getting 540fpe out a .308 Texan. But I wish you luck on pushing the envelope.
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