Is FX Airguns really that bad?

[T3PRanch]

Glem,

I like FX. I think they have an innovative product and design team. There are things behind the scenes that the consumers cannot know. I wanted to make selling FX a success in my dealership and I purchased for resale from FX-USA a number of guns this year. I can tell you categorically that 60 percent of these guns has issues out of the box that require a return to FX for repair . I can further state that I had one customer that I sold 2 Crowns. He had to send BOTH into FX for repair very soon after receiving them (before the Hurricane quite a few months ago). I then traded him a NEW FX Wildcat MK II for one of the Crowns since he was now jaded heavily by the FX experience. I checked out the Wildcat and it had to be returned to FX BEFORE being sent on to him due to regulator issues. 3 bad guns 1 customer = business LOSS! To make matters worse FX STILL has not returned the Crown he sent them in August. As a dealer I could not deal with a 60 percent or more defect rate. I could not deal with a 4 month plus repair time. I could not deal with injustices to my customer base (FX promises of it will be done next week for several months) I therefore sadly had to abandon my dream of being an FX dealer. They have effectively led me to the brink of total airgun business failure due to these issues and my being a "tiny" dealership and my "investment in FX".

As another poster said FX needs to back off the numbers and return to the quality they had a few years ago before the release of the Impact.

[Glem Chally]

Glem,

I like FX. I think they have an innovative product and design team. There are things behind the scenes that the consumers cannot know. I wanted to make selling FX a success in my dealership and I purchased for resale from FX-USA a number of guns this year. I can tell you categorically that 60 percent of these guns has issues out of the box that require a return to FX for repair . I can further state that I had one customer that I sold 2 Crowns. He had to send BOTH into FX for repair very soon after receiving them (before the Hurricane quite a few months ago). I then traded him a NEW FX Wildcat MK II for one of the Crowns since he was now jaded heavily by the FX experience. I checked out the Wildcat and it had to be returned to FX BEFORE being sent on to him due to regulator issues. 3 bad guns 1 customer = business LOSS! To make matters worse FX STILL has not returned the Crown he sent them in August. As a dealer I could not deal with a 60 percent or more defect rate. I could not deal with a 4 month plus repair time. I therefore sadly had to abandon my dream of being an FX dealer. They have effectively led me to the brink of total airgun business failure due to these issues and my being a "tiny" dealership and my "investment in FX". As another poster said FX needs to back off the numbers and return to the quality they had a few years ago before the release of the Impact.

Well that's a dang shame,  to be honest I only have hands on experience with the Royale and Boss.   Thanks for your input Thurmond,  some pretty inexcusable stuff there.

[Wildcatter]

I just gotta say my experience with the Wildcat is nothing like what I'm hearing here.  The first air gun I purchased after watching Ted's Holdover on youtube was an FX Wildcat (the first version) in .22.  It has shot in the 3 years I've owned it, the 18.13 grain JSB's into the same hole at 30 yards.  Hasn't failed yet.  Hasn't leaked, hasn't had any problem cycling.  It has been out hunting quite a bit with tremendous success.  It is light weight, balanced and has one of the best triggers I've felt on an air gun.   The only bod is a 3D lazer printed insert that fills the small hole in the rear of the stock with a magazine holder.  I have 4 magazines with 8 shots for about 32 shots and that is perfect.  From a full fill down to the need to fill is 4 magazines.  Shoots them at 875 fps for around 30 fpe.  No problems.  Nada.

IMHO there seems to be some bias against higher end air guns and FX in particular.  I have a buddy who can't stand em.  Doesn't really know why, even HE admits they're great guns.  Some folks just can't get over the price and feel there are other equally productive rifles at a much lower cost.  Much like the difference in the top of the line Ferrari and the top of the line Corvette.  Both achieve about the same performance results, but there's a mile of difference in the two.

[Wildcatter]

Now I haven't heard FX quality being so poor as to affect a person's income or air gun store.  That is INEXCUSABLE.  While my experience with the gun has been great, I can't speak to that side of things.  I sure hope things turn around for you, Thurmond.  What a crappy deal.

[Marc In Iowa]

As a dealer I could not deal with a 60 percent or more defect rate. I could not deal with a 4 month plus repair time.

...FX needs to back off the numbers and return to the quality they had a few years ago before the release of the Impact.

This is disappointing to hear.

There's a natural tension between volume and quality customer experience that is not always easy to manage.

I've worked for software companies where all the emphasis is on "the next new thing" and almost nothing on keeping things working for the existing customer base. That drove me crazy. We just kept digging the poor customer quality experience "hole" deeper with each release. We parted ways and both parties were happy to be rid of the other.

In one start up I ran the customer service interface. At our first annual users meeting, a customer stood up at the beginning and said "I do have some gripes to air but before I do that, I want to say your customer service is the BEST for ANY product or company I've ever heard of or seen." The rest of the attendees all applauded loudly.

THAT is something I will never forget.

But!

That start up was always holding on by its finger nails the whole time we existed until it got bought by a bigger company with more capital.

Like I say, not always easy to manage the balance when you are a relatively new and innovative company.

Now, I'm retired and all I have to worry about is which gun to buy! 🙂

After a lifetime in business and industry I'll say this ... there's no perfect world and getting it right is not so easy.

[rsterne]

Thurmond, your experience is truly sad, and inexcusable.... Let us all hope that FX regains the focus on quality they appear to have had at one time, so that these complaints and "gripe" threads become a thing of the past.... I love the idea of beautiful, great shooting, reliable airguns, and have no problem with companies asking a pretty penny when they deliver as advertised.... I can't afford them, and besides I get too much pleasure out of building my own to hopefully help develop our sport.... However, for those that can afford them, they should be able to buy a pricy airgun and expect it to perform flawlessly out of the box.... You have to do proper maintenance on a Ferrari, too, that is a separate issue.... Excellent customer service should be the norm with any company.... but particularly for higher priced items, be they cars or airguns.... They need to be held to a higher standard, simply because of their perceived value, and the price people are willing to pay for the name.... JMHO....

Bob

[Marc In Iowa]

At IWA last year (Mar '18?), FX announced the Dreamline for June '18 initial availability. Full availability by the end of 2018. Still not out in Dec. '18 and no press releases since the original announcement. Must be having some issues.

Mostly I hear really good things about the Streamline; simpler design, simpler build, great features, great accuracy and less money.

Dreamline rumors are for January '18.

I hope it comes out and is good like the Streamline.

[Westend-Vince]

IMHO there seems to be some bias against higher end air guns and FX in particular.  I have a buddy who can't stand em.  Doesn't really know why, even HE admits they're great guns.  Some folks just can't get over the price and feel there are other equally productive rifles at a much lower cost.  Much like the difference in the top of the line Ferrari and the top of the line Corvette.  Both achieve about the same performance results, but there's a mile of difference in the two.

+1 Wildcatter

I agree 100%
And you wouldn't want either of those cars without the final dealer prep.  As a dealer, it's MY job to verify that the products I sell are customer ready, BEFORE the customer even knows it's in the shop.  If MY customer gets a bad rifle, it would be through MY lack of due-diligence in preparing it for sale, not FX's. Any FX related issues should be discovered by the DEALER when he inspects, leak tests and Chronographs the gun on arrival. 
About 30 years ago I got tired of trying to make "silk purses" from the "sow's ears" available in air rifles at that time.  don't get me wrong, I had quite a bit of fun "pimping pigs", but not at the range.  always wondering if it was me or the rifle got old and unproductive.  So air guns went on the back burner.  When I discovered FX quality and repeatability, I was hooked.  I can pickup ANY gun I own, put air and pellets it, and KNOW I'll hit within a half inch of my aim point, no fiddling or futzing around.  If I don't, I KNOW it's me, not the gun.  That is why they cost what they do, and why I became a dealer.

[anti-squirrel]

Vince, I respect your viewpoint as a dealer, but I can't agree with this concept in a business.  A product should leave the factory or assembly line in "functionally perfect" condition.  In other words, the simple act of transportation should not cause a device to require factory repairs upon receipt by the end user.  The only product I know of where that's excusable is eggs.

Otherwise, when a premium product leaves the factory, it should not then require a bunch of inspections, cleaning, tuning or repair - especially when the retail pricepoint is essentially at the top of the market.  When I buy a Porsche, I expect it to run properly, not require new tires and a rear main seal.  If I run a leakdown test on the cylinders, I should not have one cylinder sitting at 50% of the others.  This is why we pay premium prices- an expectation the product lives up to the hype.

When it doesn't, we nay-say the product and shun the brand.  I don't mind putting in elbow grease to get desired results in a $200 PCP.  In a $2000 PCP (or even $1000) it better be perfect or it's going back.  Why?  Because the brand is expected to meet a certain level of expectation, and you, the dealership, should not be performing QA.  That's the manufacturer's job.

I'm sure a lot of FX PCPs do get shipped in perfect condition and shoot with light's out accuracy.  But their quality control is certainly hit or miss- something unacceptable in high end products.

EDIT: Now the really funny thing is that I buy every airgun based on spreadsheet logic.  I look for a set of features then cross reference every gun that meets those requirements.  From there I evaluate based on price, complexity, expected accuracy, ergonomics, and warranty.  I intend to buy my next PCP within 3 weeks, and thus far have 3 in the final running: A SPA, a Cometa, and the FX Typhoon single-shot.  So while I may seem to be down on FX, I'm not.

[T3PRanch]

I could say a lot more but it would not be productive to the current topic. I will say that the straw that finally forced my decision to discontinue FX Sales was that they had been made well aware of my ongoing issues and promised that they would do better going forward. I "finally" was able to get an FX Impact for the Store after trying to get one since the gun was introduced. It was a Silver Impact X 700 in .25. My wife graciously told me to pull a gun from stock for my 60th birthday and Christmas present. I pulled the Impact and found when doing my initial check that it is a leaker.
I contacted several persons at FX-USA and to date NO communication about this issue has been received. This started "before" the Holiday period did so a reply should have been received. Now I have a NEW gun I cannot use and I definitely cannot sell to a customer for obvious ethical reasons.

[Westend-Vince]

well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Just for fun, stop by your neighborhood Porsche dealer and ask how many hours are spent in dealer prep and tune to local conditions. You don't think they just fall off the truck and run like that do you?
how many of you current rifles were performing to your expectations "out of the box"?
I apply one standard to everything built by human beings... sht happens, o-rings get nicked on assembly and may only start leaking after multiple pressure cycles. I've done it, I'm sure most would admit that not every seal they've installed was perfectly done.

As an olive branch of peace between us, I'd be willing to buy your .25 Impact for invoice.  If you'd like it repaired, buy it a round trip ticket to my shop and I'll do the work for free.

[Marc In Iowa]

A product should leave the factory or assembly line in "functionally perfect" condition.

.

I worked General Motors for 17 years at a division that made shock absorbers. The last 12 years I was an Industrial Engineer.

I attended a meeting with our "Works Manager" (in charge of all manufacturing) in my late 20s where he was giving his views on warranty costs.

His view was "If it's cheaper to pay warranty on the back side of the sale (after it is in the customer's hands) than it is to fix the issue in the factory, why would I choose the more expensive in-factory method?"

At the time, I was pretty overawed by this very important, highly placed, top manager at our division. I was impressed by this sage bit of wisdom.

But, thinking about it later, I realized how totally stupid this idea was.

It's better for a customer to buy a GM car (from Chevy to Cadillac) and have their brand new car with brand new shock absorbers leak shock oil all over this person's driveway?

Sorry, Mr. Important Works Manager, that's just wrong and foolish.

Yet, here he was, the top manager and I was just one of many engineers.

People get it wrong. Even important, highly placed people.

Later, after GM began to really hurt from low sales due much to poor quality, I got extensive training on the importance of quality. Thinking back on that meeting, I was deeply embarrassed.

I'm encouraged by the design of the FX Streamline; simpler, fewer parts, less to go wrong, etc. This is how you "design in" a quality experience from the get go. You can't "inspect in" true quality. This is a well understood "art." I'm hopeful that FX is learning from best practices. It's way cheaper to design a product that almost has no choice but to work perfectly.

Complicated products are rarely this way. Simplicity takes time and dedication. It reminds me of the Mark Train quote "I didn't have time to write you a short note."

[Marc In Iowa]

... how many of you current rifles were performing to your expectations "out of the box"?

I've got just one, my COČ 177 Hammerli 850 Air Magnum. I took it out of the box and it did and still does shoot perfectly; never leaks, never jams, highly accurate, German designed and made. It didn't even require any break-in. Truly flawless. For $266 new, delivered. 8-shot magazines are $8 each.

Discovery - no.
Coyote - no.
Urban - no.
Bantam - no.

To be fair, the Discovery didn't have any broken parts or leaks, just required after market parts (trigger and TKO). All the others required some remediation; the Urban and Coyote the most.

That Hammerli really spoiled me.

[Dairyboy]

how many of you current rifles were performing to your expectations "out of the box"?

Taipan Veteran X5
WAR WARP X2
RAW HM1000X
BSA R10 Mk2
CZ 200S
Daystate Regal XL
Nova Freedom and Liberty

And those are just all I can remember off the top of my head. Ive bought and sold many many guns trying them out and have never had issues with higher end guns. Lower end is different and to be expected. But anything $1000+ better perform out of box period. Shouldn't leave factory if it doesn't.

[Westend-Vince]

Gentlemen, I stand corrected.  I will slink off, back into the shadows, continuing to ensure My customer's satisfaction in my own way.

Thurmond,  my offer stands, and I open it up to anyone here.  I'll take any sub par, UN-tampered with, FX rifle off your hands for invoice.  PM me.

Dillon, you are indeed a lucky man, nothing I've ever purchased was exactly like I expected, I've tweaked and modified everything in one way or another.

to each, his own.  I'm tapping out.

[anti-squirrel]

well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Just for fun, stop by your neighborhood Porsche dealer and ask how many hours are spent in dealer prep and tune to local conditions. You don't think they just fall off the truck and run like that do you?
how many of you current rifles were performing to your expectations "out of the box"? ...

All of them, believe it or not.  I don't have any fancy airguns, though, so I'm not a good person to ask   They are tools to fulfill a role.  If I was intending to spend a goodly chunk of change, I'd want whatever I buy working from the factory without needing a major repair. 

And having owned a 912, 914, and a 914-6, my penchant for Porsches leans toward ancient air-cooled models that breaker-point ignitions, Bosch distributors, and pushrod flat-fours/sixes that needed the valve clearances checked every 3-to-6K.  I also know if you buy a new 911 off the lot, it will not require a major repair equivalent to a leak on a PCP.  That would be like the ignition not working, or perhaps the transmission refusing to go into reverse.  A "new off the shelf" Porsche needs nothing except gasoline to go have fun.  I won't deny they get some detailing work to ensure they are pristine, but the type of failures those FX guns are having would be akin to a faulty transmission or a bad ECM when it rolled off the truck at the dealership.  Simple stated, if you compare what some FX owners are experiencing to the auto industry, there would major recalls.

And, from a Six-Sigma or even Deming Management/TQM perspective, turning out products that aren't quite ready for Prime-Time (IE requiring dealer-end checking/tuning/QA) will just hurt a company in the long run.

On the flip side, I really commend you for your offer Vince to T3PRanch.  That you are willing to go well out of your way to support FX tells me their trust in you is well founded in you as a dealer.

[T3PRanch]

Thurmond,  my offer stands, and I open it up to anyone here.  I'll take any sub par, UN-tampered with, FX rifle off your hands for dealer cost.  PM me.

Thanks for the offer Vince but FX is going to have to "Man-Up" and take responsibility for this one otherwise the Credit Card Company can deal with it. I Charged this one just in case problems as in the past arose despite promises to the contrary from FX-USA! There are MANY others that would take it "as is" for dealer cost!

[KnifeMaker]

I can tell you what my Evanix Rainstorm II needed to be a prime AG. Air-Pellets, back off hammer spring for more shots. That was all. LOL!


Oh and a "good scope". Rare in most airgunners minds.


Did the Rainstorm meet expectations? In truth, it far exceeded my expectations. Never received an AG that performed so well with power, accuracy, and smoothness in one package before. And very light yet very-very robust in its build!


And hundreds under a grand.

[Nomadic Pirate]

Dillon, you are indeed a lucky man, nothing I've ever purchased was exactly like I expected, I've tweaked and modified everything in one way or another.

First of all, are expectations related to manufacturers claims and guns prices ?

Or just something out the blue from an individual ?

Secondly,....there's a huge difference in tweeking to your needs/wants/fancies to having to fix because a gun came defected from factory.

Also I wouldn't be bothered if a 300 bucks Chinese PCP came with a leak and I had to change some O-rings but I would be extremely perturbed if a 1000-2000 bucks airgun arrived and with a leak and I had to change O-rings,......Yes, all PCPs eventually will need O-rings replaced but If I get a 1500 bucks gun I wanna take it out da box and be able to shoot it a long time before I have to do some work to it.

Again, big difference between "Have to" and "Want to"

[Tweeter]

I think FX will just keep serving up more airguns because they always seem to sell like hotcakes despite any problems they might have.  Take the Wildcat reg (or is it the FX reg in general?) for instance.  I've seen about a dozen people order a brand new wildcat for $1300 and a Huma reg at the same time to have on hand for WHEN the reg fails.   

That's just one of the major issues that I am aware of but I guess there must be many more since this is such a hot topic?

Also saw a thread on another forum where a member wrote a tutorial on how to modify the FX Crown reg. so it would not creep anymore.  If that guy can fix it in his garage why couldn't FX get it right?

I have (usually ) tried to refrain from bashing FX because I'm sure every gun model has its issues and I know there are lots of happy FX owners but there has to be a reason that FX's quality control is always getting called into question?