Lead Hardness Testing Method/Updated with pellets tested

[Nvreloader]

Bob

Thank you,
Did you use a sharp angle or rounded type of point on the pencil Lead?

What would your SWAG be as for the pencil tips, sharp cut 90* angle or slightly rounded, some thing different?

I just did a sample test on piece of lead bar, pure lead from a cable sheathing, as cast/poured, clean flat surface,
in the following manner,

I held the pencil like I was writing with it,

I slid the pencil lead along the lead bar, like I was underlining/scratching etc,
the 6B/5B pencils would just slide along the test bar, and not scratch the test lead.

I then used a 4B pencil and did the same the same test via the same method as above,
the 4B pencil would scratch the lead, leaving a mark that could be seen/felt.

Both pencil lead tips were cut to a 90* angle, when I used a slightly round lead tip,
I could scratch the lead with the 4B, leaving a shallow mark, but not with the 5B/6B pencils,
all of the other harder pencils would scratch the lead, the pencils softer than 4B would not scratch the lead etc.

So I believe that this lead bar is in the a BHN range of 9= 25:1 lead/tin ratio.

A quick - 5 pellet random test sample on the Crosman Piranha 14.3gr OEM pellet produced these results,
6B/5B pencils would NOT scratch the lead, just left a lead smear, when scratching,
a 4B would leave a very shallow scratch mark,
a 3B pencil would leave a scratch mark that could be felt,
so I would believe that this can of pellets is in the BHN range of 9 = 25:1 lead/tin

Your thoughts or suggestions...........

Tia,
Don

[rsterne]

I didn't find much difference in the shape of the point, although a very sharp point required less pressure to make a (narrow scratch)…. As the point wore down, more force was required, and the scratch was wider, as you would expect.... If the pencil is softer than the lead, it crumbles, and if harder, it scratches it.... Only when they are about the same hardness do you get a combination of crumbling of the pencil and a hard to decipher mark on the lead.... at least from the limited experience I have so far.... I think bracketing the BHN as I did in my tests makes it quite easy to determine which pencil is the same as the lead, which I interpret as a combination of crumbling and leaving a depression (scratch) in the lead....

I haven't tested any other pellets as yet, but Crosman pellets are definitely harder than JSBs.... BTW, I did my fingernail test on the pencils, and vice versa.... My fingernail scratches a 3B pencil but won't scratch a 2B.... while the 2B pencil will leave a very small mark on my fingernail.... Apparently my fingernails are BHN 10-11, which is a handy thing to know.... 

Bob

[Nvreloader]

Bob

I want to see your finger nails marked with 3B on them, are you using the thumb or finger nails.........LOL

What a picture,
the Big Blue Star Wars Dark Vader Cookie Monster, holding an AR, eating a cookie with painted 3B nails......ROTHFLMAO,

Just had to jerk on your chain, a little bit, all in good fun,    Bob.

Thank you,
Don

[rsterne]

My 2.5B fingernails can scratch every pellet I picked up in my shop, some deeper than others.... I think the Crosman are the hardest, will have to test them with pencils when I get the time.... JSB are the softest, according to the depth of scratch from my fingernails.... I think they are all the same hardness, but for consistency I tested and am using my right thumbnail.... 

Bob

[rsterne]

I just tested a bullet cast with 1% tin, and it scratches with a 6B pencil.... I would estimate the BHN as 6, and have added that data to my post above....

Bob

[Nvreloader]

Thanks Bob

I am now setting up all the pellets I have, 15-20 different brands and types, so I can do the pellet hardness tests etc.

I will do the slide/scratch test on a 5 test sample of each pellets, Random pick from the can,
and will post the results ASAP.

It would be very interesting to get several test samples from other around our shooting areas,
it might/should provide which pellets/hardness provides the best accuracy in what ever air guns,
as a general swag.

Once we get a good samples, I would hope that this info could be made a sticky,
to help those that follow behind etc.

Your thoughts or suggestion on the approximate diameter of the pencil lead points,
so we have a fairly consistent testing results thru out etc............

Tia,
Don

[rsterne]

I am just sharpening mine with the 23 deg. Staedler sharpener, and when if gets dull, resharpening it.... It doesn't really seem to make any difference to which pencil scratches the lead, but the sharper it is, the less force required to get the scratch, and the deeper and narrower the scratch is.... YMMV.... I am holding the pencil at about a 45 deg. angle, and pushing it away from me, so that the lead is in compression and doesn't break off sideways....

Bob

[Nvreloader]

Thanks Bob

I have the same brand sharpener, and I'll do the same angle when testing the pellets,
so my results should be fairly close, to your tests, I hope.

I should have the 7b & 8B pencils here tomorrow, to complete my pencil set,
according to the shipping tag info.

I ended up with close to 30+ different pellet to sample in 17 cal, 22 cal and 25 calibers,
which I don't even own, yet.  LOL

Tia,
Don

[Gut2Fish]

It's such a simple test isn't it? There really is no mistaking what pencil makes a mark. ASTM standards for pencil hardness are adhered to with a nice Steadler set. My cheapo Chinese set from Walmart not so much. This is why my 4 and 3 B's are of equal or near equal hardness and makes me wonder about the others some but hey, the 6,5 and 4B are all I need and they differentiate the alloys I mix up.

Learned my lesson long ago about trying to purchase scrap lead on the cheap. I only use pure lead and have a Rotometals tested bulk supply of 10 BHN I'd blended up with the last of the plumbers lead and and other sources I had with high tin content solder bar.

I'd like to point out that the source saying tin raises BHN 0.3 for every percent is wrong. If 40:1 (2.5%) tin is 8 bhn and we know this to be true (actually 7-8 BHN) then how did 2.5*0.3+5=8? If we assume 1% tin is 1 BHN then it all works better. 20:1 alloy is 10 BHN all day long. That's 5% tin + 5 BHN lead to equal 10. And I'd also like to point out that Bob and Steadler proved 99.9% lead is much softer than 5BHN if the 7B scratched it. If Rotometals does indeed perform a hardness test, I don't believe they do, then they are not using 99.9% in the alloys. But again, they say their pure is 5BHN which is convention for good lead. The truth is really pure lead is closer to 4. You'll find many sources substantiating this 4-4.5 BHN for purest lead. Steadler 7B doesn't lie. Nice find Bob.

[Nvreloader]

Just got in from Reno, VA Dr appt's, had to get my quick fix from here.......before bedtime.  LOL

Garrett
The info, I posted in my post of #33 about the hardness of lead etc, was straight from the Roto-metal site etc,
I received a email back form them and they said that their pure lead is 5 BHN for hardness, via their testing,
I don't have the experience to confirm or deny that info posted.

After I get my beauty sleep, (I need it) after dealing with the blasted traffic of Reno, 
I'll start the pellet testing, and post the results etc, as the 7B & 8B pencils were waiting for me.

I am real curious as to the results............ More later...................

Tia,
Don

[Smoketown]

Nothing is valid if we are not using the EXACT same methods or procedure.   

And don't forget to rotate the pencil each time you attempt a scratch as you probably damaged your previously square and sharp "cutting edge".   

Attachment obtained from  the WWW.


Cheers,
Smoketown

[Nvreloader]

Guys

Here is some of the pellet testing I have completed so far.
Notes:
I started with a Steadler set of pencils from the 8B thru the 2H,
all pencils were sharpened to a point as provided via a 23* Steadler pencil shapener,
then re sharpened as needed to maintain a point.

I did a 5 pellet random sample from each can, using a new pellet for each test,
I held the pencil at approximately 45* angle, and pushed the pencil to have the point bearing inline with the length of the shaft.

If the pencil lead slid along the skirt (bottom edge towards the waist),
and left no marks that could be seen or felt (via finger nail), I marked it has as = did not cut =DNC,
if the pencil lead left a visible mark and could be felt, I marked it as CUT, any other notes were noted etc.

I also noted approximately how long I have had some of these pellets, some of these pellets were from the 70's,
and ALL are OEM pellets as produced via their brands/types etc, and if they had a model/type or number,
for each pellet, it was noted.

There was a surprise with the noted hardness..........of a certain brand name..........

I started with the 22 caliber first...........

JSB 22 caliber
Exact Jumbo-15.89-gr-6B DNC/5B cut=BHN=7/8
Jumbo Heavy-18.13 gr-6B DNC/5B cut=BHN=7/8
Jumbo Monster Redesigned-25.39 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Ultra Shock Heavy-25.39-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5

H&N
Field Target Trophy-#1069-14.66 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Field Target Trophy-#10618-14.66 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Baracuda Match-#10632-21.14 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Baracuda Match-#02187-21.14 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5

Crosman Premier Dome-14.13 gr-8B DNC/7B cut=BHN=?  (this can is 5-6 yrs old)
Crosman Premier Dome-14.13 gr-6B DNC/5b cut=BHN=7/8  (new can just bought this yr)

Skenco
NewBoy HP-20.3 gr-8B DNC/7B cut=BHN=?
Newboy Jr-20.3 gr-8B DNC/7B cut=BHN=?
Ultra Shock HP-16.66 gr-8B DNC/7B cut=BHN=?

Ruger Super Point-16.80 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5

Gamo
Platium PBA-9.7 gr-2B DNC/B cut=BHN=13
Red Fire Poly Tip-15.4 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9

Beeman (these pellets are at least 20+ yrs old)
Silver Bear HP-#3040-12.3 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Silver Sting PT-#3025-15.4 gr-6B DNC/5B cut=BHN=7/8
Lazer Dome-#3100-13.4 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9
Silver Arrow PT-#3088-16.5 gr-6B DNC/5B cut-BHN=7/8
Crow Mag HP-#3002-18.2 gr-6B DNC/5B cut=BHN=7/8
Kodiak Dome-21.14 gr-6B DNC/5B cut=BHN=7/8

Benjaman Sampler Pack
Dome Mag-14.13 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9
Dome HP-14.13 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9
Pointed-14.13 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9
Dome-14.13 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9

JSB Sampler pack
Straton PT-15.9 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Jumbo RS Dome-13.4 gr-8B DNC/7B cut=BHN=?
Jumbo Monster-25.4 gr-6B DNC/5B cut=BHN=7/8
Jumbo Heavy-18.1 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5

Wayne 52
Sent me a sample lot of the NOE pellet/bullets,
he had cast from NOE molds using Roto-Metals pure lead, 99.9 %,
I used the same testing techniques as the OEM pellets,

NOE-217-24-RF-22 cal-av weight=23.6 gr=8B-DNC/7B cut= BHN = 4- Shiny colored pellets
NOE-217-24-RF-22 cal-av weight=23.1 gr=8B-DNC/7B cut= BHN= 4- Dull colored pellets
NOE-217-30-FN BT-22 cal-av weight=30.0 gr=8B-DNC/7B cut=BHN =4- Shiny colored bullets

17 Cal
Crosman Premier HP-7.9 gr-6B DNC/5B cut=BHN=7/8  (new can just bought this yr)

Gamo
Whisper-10.5 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9
Tomahawk-7.8 gr-5B DNC/4B cut=BHN=9

25 Caliber
Beeman (these pellets are at least 20 yrs+ old)
Silver Arrow-#3008-24.2 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5
Crow Mag HP-#3003-25.6 gr-7B DNC/6B cut=BHN=4/5

Pencil Hardness -vs- Brinell Hardness of lead alloys      
Pencil #   BHN  #   Alloy
8B....?
7B....4
6B....4-5...Pure Lead-sheet Lead-Lead Wire
5B....7-8...40/1 Lead-Tin = Plummers Lead
4B....9......25/1 Lead-Tin
3B....10....20/1 Lead-Tin = Clip on Wheel Weights
2B....11-12.Range Scrap-Air cooled Wheel Weights
B......13...Quenched Range Scrap/WW+2% Tin
HB....14-15..Lyman #2 Alloy/1-1 Linotype Lead
F.......16-18..Lyman #2 Alloy Quenched - Commerical cast bullets
HB....20-22..50/50 Linotype/Wheel Weights
2H....26-28..Quenched Wheel Weights/Monotype


Here is a chart to use: (post# 2 for the chart)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355056-Easier-pencil-lead-hardness-testing

Your thoughts or suggestions.............

I hope others will follow along and provide more info/results, for all to use...............

Tia,
Don

[Nvreloader]

Jim

Thank you for the info,
that method seems to fall inline with the info that posted on the Cast Boolits forum,
I am wondering if a sharpened pencil lead, pointed with a small dia flat face, would provide the reliable results,
as compared with a full dia, flat faced point?

Since I have all the pellets/and set up still on the table, I may retest to see if the results change etc.

I found in my above test of the pellets, that several pellets tested, would mark and cut with the 7B pencil etc.
So that would indicate that the tested lead was closer to very pure lead?

There is a member of the CB forum that will test a lead sample for exchange of 1# of lead, per sample,
I have contacted him to find out the info need for test samples etc.

I am curious of the differences between pure lead samples, I do not have the experience or training,
to know these differences, on how a very small % of trace elements changes the hardness etc.

One item of interest, I found out thru pellet testing is that Crosman changed their hardness of their pellets,
I have been chasing my tail using those (newer) pellets, the older OEm pellets were shooting very good in "Leakin Lena",
out to 40 yds with the QB 79 OEM bbl, changed to the newer OEM (harder) Crosmans and LL turned into a scatter gun,
and I did not change anything else, using the tethered tank, for starling sniping etc.

Now that I have a approximate hardness of the OLD Crosmans, I'll find another OEM pellet that is the same range,
and get as close as I can get to pellet weight to see the results with LL, that should give me the info needed etc.

I am hoping that when my pellet casting equipment is finished, and I start casting again,
I'll find a good lead harness that is close or matches the old CM's, in accuracy levels,
I know that there will be a weight difference from the NOE molds, but I can re tune LL for that.

Tia,
Don

[rsterne]

I am not surprised that Crosman are pretty hard, and Benjamin also, plus I have observed that Gamo are usually pretty hard.... For the most part JSBs are dead soft, I always took them for pure lead.... Beeman are usually quite hard as well.... What shocks me is that the H&N pellets you tested were quite soft, yet the Beeman are hard, I usually found them to be identical.... I wonder if H&N are now using a softer lead for their own production than they used to?....

Bob

[Nvreloader]

Thanks Bob

What really surprised me was the Gamo Platinum at 13 BHN hardness?
These pellets did NOT shoot accurately, for my 79. (I wonder why? LOL)

I am in the process of redoing the pencil lead shape to see if the results are the same, since there is 2 ways of doing the tips etc.
On my sharp pointed lead tips, there was very small tip dia, approximately .030" in dia, that was sanded flat/square with a fine finger nail board.
I tried to keep the same point dia thru out the test, on the softer pencil leads, some of the tips were slightly larger in dia,
due to the softness of the lead etc.

I'll post the results to what I find, good, bad or otherwise.

I'll have some cast pellets coming and will test them also.

Would a very small % of trace elements in pure lead, change the hardness to a great amount, as to the hardness ratings when pencil testing?

I am referring to Roto-Metal pure lead that they list as follows,
I did find out the BHN of their pure lead is 5, for the Brinell Hardness scale of 99.9% Lead,

Basic Rules for Hardening Lead-
For every 1% additional tin, Brinell hardness increases 0.3.
For every 1% additional antimony, Brinell hardness increases 0.9.

Their Pure Lead percentage,
ELEMENTS
Lead (Pb) 99.9241
Tin (Sn) <0.0001
Antimony (Sb) 0.0237
Copper (Cu) 0.0232
Arsenic (As) 0.0002
Bismuth (Bi) 0.0232
Silver (Ag) 0.0027
Nickel (Ni) 0.0004
Zinc (Zn) 0.0001
Iron (Fe) <0.0001
Cadmium (Cd) <0.0001
Other Sb+Sn+As 0.0239

IMHO,
and what little I know about lead, I don't think, I could find a more purer form of lead, within my pay grade. LOL
I am also surprised that some of the softer pellets could be cut with the 7B pencil,
which leaves a lingering doubt about that hardness and or testing method/results etc
I am scratching my head wondering, now. 

Tia,
Don

[Wayne52]

Don those results you got for the hardness test are very interesting indeed.  When I send you those pellets I'll try including the very shiny ones which were cast in warmer weather and the dark ones which were cast in the high 30's outside on my back porch.  I suspect the dark ones will be a tad bit harder.  I also expect that hardness doesn't go deep if it even comes out testing harder.

My pellets right now are all coming from the same 58lb split ingot of 99.9% pure lead from Rotometals.

The tins that I've been shooting from are mixed with both batches dark/shiny pellets and I find no difference in the way they're shooting out of my Airmax Dominator which is extremely accurate with them. Yesterday morning I shot a fox squirrel with one at 50 yards through a very small window of sight through my scope on 12X, the pellet entered right where I was aiming (high right shoulder) and it exited just below her left eye.

[Sbak]

One thing to keep in mind, lead becomes softer when it is "worked". So when a pellet is measured for hardness it is almost impossible to tell composition. It will depend more on the manufacturing process than the composition

[K.O.]

A guy at cast boolits sent some Crosman and Daisy and RWS off to have composition analyzed... in 2016

His results..from a guy there that goes by BNE that uses an X-ray method...

Crosman Premier and Copperhead-99% Pb & 1% Sb

RWS and Daisy Premium-100% Pb

..?

[Nvreloader]

Thanks Kirby

I know about BNE, waiting for a reply back from him, as I want some samples tested for makeup,
I am hoping that pellets can be checked via X-ray machine etc.

I know from my OEM pellets by Crosman, that there is a difference in the makeup of the lead used,
you can see and feel the differences between the OLD ones and the newer ones.

I checked the cans and cannot find any info that is different, ie; lot #, codes etc
as Crosman doesn't have that info on their cans, that I am aware of........

I am hunting up a place where I can buy the purest lead possible,
so I can obtain a sample for testing with the softer pencils, just to have the info available.

IMHO
I would believe that if we had a listing of the pellets in each cal, with known hardness, shot with xyz fps,
from what ever AR, at whatever psi levels etc, might prove useful for those that are following along,
as I was kinda baffled when I first started with LL (79).

As I know now, that when I first started shooting, I was pulling my hair out, the OLD CM shot very accurately,
when I changed to the new ones, accuracy went into the toilet, without changing anything except the different cans of pellets,
now I found out about the hardness, and I'll find or cast for this range of hardness, for the best accuracy possible.

Just another level of the Dark Rabbit Hole............lol 

Tia,
Don

 

[Nvreloader]

One thing I am going to do is, order a bar of pure lead from Roto-metals,
and check the hardness as shipped, then melt sample, test the hardness,
then cast some pellets and check those pellets for hardness,
to see if there is a hardness change afterwards.

And another thing I am wondering about is, is there a difference in hardness,
from just using the OEM pellets as in the can, and filing a clean flat spot to test the hardness,
as it is unknown what the OEM coating of the pellets as made.

I know lead can get softer or harder after a certain time level etc.

Tia,
Don