Lead Hardness Testing Method/Updated with pellets tested

[K.O.]

From what I have read lead/tin alloys soften with age... and with even more age (years) lead/tin/antimony soften also after an initial phase of hardening... but not sure about the second just what I have been told by a few over the years...

Have heard about guys heat treating for annealing (cool slowly) not just to harden(quenching water dropping) with the Sb alloys to soften... so theoretically you can soften the CPHP and then send them out within a day two or so and see if there is any effect... the lower the Sb the slower it hardens...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?107059-Annealing-lead-bullets

[rsterne]

Sb is Antimony.... I doubt any pellets use that....

Bob

[K.O.]

Hi Bob see reply 57...

This is the Inet  so all test/statements should be questioned... but..? this is also been said by more than one...

Oh and here is another pencil test that showed the crosmans .177 equivielent to 25 :1 ...9bhn... after melting down an empty pellet trap...

so some confirmation on the BHN of the Benji pellets...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?94782-Airgun-pellets-Pure-lead


I think Michael Thomas said he read that the crosman uses Sb back in a 2013 thread... and that caused me to do a search...

BB Pelletier said the entire line uses Sb but do not know his source... tenth paragraph...

https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/02/crosman-pellets-they-werent-always-premiers/

finally found the thread that talks about the xray test...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?313749-Air-Rifle-pellet-XRF-test

[rsterne]

I guess that makes sense.... Crosman pellets, in my experience, are about the hardest of all.... You can make a BHN 9 pellet cheaper using Sb than using Sn, because you use less Antimony for the same hardness than you do Tin.... 1% Sb or 4% Sn end up about the same BHN....

Of course if you are casting, there is absolutely no question which is better, the Tin flows better and stays brighter over many years....

Regarding lead changing hardness over time, it appears that eventually a lead alloy wants to go back to the annealed (as cast) state of the raw alloy.... Hardening by quenching works for a while (likely for longer than you will store them)…. Antimony when quenched gets harder, I'm not sure the same applies to Tin, or to pure lead.... Since I have no interest in hardening, or using Antimony, I really pay little attention to trying to "modify" the hardness.... I want the softest alloy that will fill mold details well.... which means pure lead with a small amount of tin.... 1-2.5% works for me.... which is BHN 6-8....

Realistically, since commercial pellets range from BHN 5-9, and they all work fine (different guns prefer different pellets), I figure if we stay within that range of hardness, we should be OK....

Bob

[Nvreloader]

Question for those of us following along.

I have found a couple of sites that also list the hardness of pure lead 99.99 range as 4 BHN,
and from my limited testing of the pellets I have, there were several that would cut with the 7B pencil.

Could the hardness test be adjusted to have those very soft pellets into the 4 BHN range, that cut with the 7B pencil,
and then have the 6B pencil range listed as 5 BHN 99.9 range of pure lead.

Since the alloy used of these very soft pellets is a SWAG etc.

Your thoughts or suggestions.....

Tia,
Don

[rsterne]

Don, I have a feeling that the reason the 6B pencil is listed as correct for "pure lead" is that nobody tried a 7B or 8B, so the chart stopped there.... Remember that the common set of Staedler pencils is 6B to 6H, you need the "soft" set to go from 8B to 2H.... I just don't think any of the PB shooters bothered to make the distinction between 6B and softer than 6B.... Just my thoughts....

I don't think you can definitely say that a 6B is 5 BHN and not 6 BHN, or that a 7B is 4 BHN and not 5 BHN, without simultaneously using a "proper" calibrated BHN indenting tester on the SAME sample of lead.... In reality, we don't care what the BNH number is.... only if you can scratch it with a 7B or a 6B, right?....

Bob

[K.O.]

Well I can see that Maybe a non-choked polygonal barrel could benefit from a harder alloy...  My first pour for the BBT 30g .22 was with half reclaimed Crosman pellets  4-5% tin and the rest 99.99 PB... It was for a Crosman .22 barrel that looked like it had the button run thru twice, almost looked like a poly barrel and did have very little rifling height... I figured the hardness would be best to prevent it from stripping past  the rifling... I did not think that 1/4 of  1 % Sb would do much... was just for the luck of using crosman pellet lead in a crosman barrel in my first pour... they did very well considering what they were being sent out of at about 550 fps... Nice and stable out to the 50 yards I tried them out to... so they did grip the shallow rifling...

well I did save and check some later and I do think maybe they did grow a bit after a few months very little though so it is hard to be sure... like .0001-0002...and I had poured them hot at a quick pace in an aluminum mold...

so it does make me wonder if maybe still keep ~1% tin for flow out and got to some (1-3%)antimony  for size... but only if still dropping a bit small for a given barrel and having tried tin with the coolest mold and melt temp possible... also Brass likes to tin up with tin oxides so maybe using Sb with them would avoid that...

I also have a XL 725 Barrel that I poured some of the 5% tin/trace SB for and the 40g .25 BBT are just a small hair to little... I did pour those hot tho... Have not done much since cause of some health issues so do need to try a cooler melt... but some Sb and less tin may be an option rather than buying the larger 40G BBT mold also...

Oh also Shane in the below thread is  pouring the BBT pellets with pure lead and they are dropping small... maybe you could weigh in if you know if Al designed the mold for a tinned alloy...and if so how much...

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150474.0 

Also I do think that the .22lr alloy is germane to this conversation about hardness especially if running .22lr .22 hornet or such barrels and near the same fpe... and from what I have read they also use Sb in varying amounts... and good to know if you have an indoor range near that has a lot of .22lr used...or you send alot of .22lr out into traps yourself...possible lead source..?  Also maybe now that we are casting pellets some barrels like the RWS 52 in the below pic(would be cool barrel to try  on a pcp) might like a harder alloy..? Maybe not but fun experiment..

was curious and searched just before I picked up my first mold... what is cool about this thread is it talks about using specific gravity as a clue for figuring out possible alloying agent... mix that and quenched hardness..?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?12186-Rimfire-bullet-alloy

more on .22 alloy

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?117546-Alloy-in-22LR-lead   

I do think for almost all a 1-2% tin alloy is best but just wanted to throw out some food for thought... oh the pic is from ToJung2die...

In the end on hardness testing, I think is not how accurate compared to a lab result... it will be how consistent your results with your method...

in the below article the conclusion is the same for some of the testers you can get such as the Lee etc...

http://www.lasc.us/Shay-BHN-Tester-Experiment.htm#Lee 

while none of this is really needed when you can just buy an alloy from a reliable vendor such as Rotometals... I do like that it may help with my stash of found fishing weights, plumbers lead, WW and etc... plus I just find it stimulating to learn new stuff...

[Nvreloader]

Kirby

That is one weird rifling pattern in that RWS 52 bbl, looks like they forgot to do something, to make it complete.......

The lands look so large for the tiny grooves etc.  Are they all like this? Not any experience with that model.

Still reading several of those pages on the LASC site, some pretty good info on the lead testers,
that they tested, makes you wonder about the end results etc.

One good thing about starting casting with pure soft lead, you can always make it harder as needed,
just can't go back the other way, to make it softer..........

Thanks,
Don

[K.O.]

Well I have never owned a springer but that pic made me look for other Diana/RWS pics... below attached is a Diana 25 pic and here is a link to the pics some of the  Diana 27...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Diana+27+rifling&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CTJaC8sDBsyPIjgSk8u7QB3iAoYwCJKU9lUykQ9tilVxMHeBQOd7LUhVzHnuO8rhqIREFDJwAGtIOIpQMmKydZDxWCoSCRKTy7tAHeICEeZIsVDMjlh9KhIJhjAIkpT2VTIRJ5Yk6J3bPJsqEgmRD22KVXEwdxEQKlWqGlyljyoSCYFA53stSFXMEWEb-BgqXjqvKhIJee47yuGohEQRRZQjUmPserAqEgkUMnAAa0g4ihH9W3-H8aOnSSoSCVAyYrJ1kPFYEX5zGUaOK35R&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiP9tve9fLeAhXVIjQIHXx6CwMQ9C96BAgBEBg&biw=1366&bih=626&dpr=1#imgrc=rF17K2m34fNeMM:

So the old rifling did not have such wide lands with the narrow grooves... but here is  a link that has a RWS 34P pic and it does have the wide lands...So it may be a RWS thing...

https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2017/06/checking-out-a-diana-rws-34p-part-2/     


also below is a pic of HW 100 rifling which is close to being like some .22lr  rifling... a lot of groove and small lands....

Here is a link to a thread about the Smooth twist barrels...which are probably not going to like harder cast pellets...

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/getting-techbarrel-twist-ratios-stabilizing-a-pellet-environmental-variables/


Point  is I do think casting with differing alloys may in some  barrels pay off...

and you can water down a hard alloy with a lot of 99.99 lead... or use the hard alloy with 99.99 pb to come up with an in between alloy...

I just look at the rifling and try to imagine it at different fpe levels for 5-100fpe  with different pellets/boolits that have differing contact patch sizes etc....and think what would it like best... just wish I had the $$$ to do all the experiments...

[K.O.]

I can not resist an interesting factoid... the RWS rifling examples follow after the rifling favored by one  Henry Deringer... I know of this because my middle name is Lincoln as is my grandfathers and a couple other forefathers...

click on pic and you can see muzzle just enough...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Deringer 

same Derringer (modern mispelling)

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/jan2001/schehl.htm

Deringer rifle

http://weaponsman.com/?p=27861

[cosmic]

If you have drill press try this as it takes some of the angle error out of the test.. Glue a bb or ball bearing to a drill bit..
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=2ahUKEwijjevlovXeAhUSW60KHYdlDj8QwqsBMAx6BAgbEAs&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov

[Nvreloader]

Bob

Thanks for the info.

For my end of hunting the best lead possible, I believe that a 7B pencil is providing useful info for me.
It appears that the 7B pencil works for the very soft side of lead hardness.

I just found another reference to the hardness of lead, using the pencil set,
see info here,

Hardness Reference
Pencil BHN Common Alloys
7B 4 pure & sheet lead
6B 5 lead wire
5B 7-8 40:1 Remington Golden Bullet 22LR
4B 9 25:1 Many types of 22LR
3B 10 20:1 WW,
2B 11-12 Range Scrap
B 13
HB 14-15 Lyman #2, 1:1 Linotype
F 16-18 Commercial cast bullets
H 20-22 linotype/WW, linotype
2H 26-28 Monotype, Quench WW

I added this info just to have a more complete range for all the pencils etc.

Thank you,
Don

[gendoc]

i have always used 6b pencils for airgun hunting lead verification.

[Wayne52]

Don all the cast pellets I've been getting from the 99.9% pure pig split ingot mushroom really good in the right stuff, I think those samples that I sent you will test really soft IMO.  One of these days I'll get the stuff to make up some of the genuine balistic Jell, I was looking at the plastic containers at Dollar General and some of them would make great molds for it.

[Nvreloader]

Wayne
Thank you, you Enabler.....    

The pony express just made a mad dash by here and threw off the goods. LOL

I post the info of the testing, from all of them tomorrow,
got to get the phone working, had a lite snow fall and it's on the blink now.

I just got an email that my 4 cavity Brass 217-24 mold and sizing dies is being shipped from NOE.   

Just have to finish the little welding on the pot now.
Then learn........... how to cast those pellets............

Tia,
Don

[Nvreloader]

Thanks John

I am attempting to find a sample of the purest lead possible, no luck so far, 
so I can see the difference between the pencils, and gain so more info etc..

Tia,
Don

[truck]

You can get 99.9% pure lead from Rotometals. Buy five pounds for fourteen bucks, do your test then melt it down into thousands of pellets.
https://www.rotometals.com/pure-soft-lead-metal-99-9-5-pounds/

[Smoketown]

How pure do you want it?  (99.99%)   

https://www.lmine.com/lead-c-1_7_89/premium-grade-lead-foil-usa-p-3806.html

Cheers,
Smoketown

[Wayne52]

You can get 99.9% pure lead from Rotometals. Buy five pounds for fourteen bucks, do your test then melt it down into thousands of pellets.
https://www.rotometals.com/pure-soft-lead-metal-99-9-5-pounds/

I bought my last lead from there in a split pig ingot that weighed 58lbs, I've still got probably ten pounds of the first half left, it goes a long long way when molding the .22's and .25's

[Nvreloader]

Guys
Here is some more info on some tested pellets/bullets, sent in too test for hardness.

Wayne 52
Sent me a sample lot of the NOE pellet/bullets,
he had cast from NOE molds using Roto-Metals pure lead, 99.9 %,
I used the same testing techniques as the above OEM pellets,

NOE-217-24-RF-22 cal-av weight=23.6 gr=8B-DNC/7B cut= BHN = 4- Shiny colored pellets
NOE-217-24-RF-22 cal-av weight=23.1 gr=8B-DNC/7B cut= BHN= 4- Dull colored pellets
NOE-217-30-FN BT-22 cal-av weight=30.0 gr=8B-DNC/7B cut=BHN =4- Shiny colored bullets

I will add these pellets/info to the master list of pellets/bullets started on pg 3, post #51

Wayne
Thank you for your time and trouble for adding to the master list,
It is greatly appreciated.....

Tia,
Don