P 17 problem



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Offline BrushPopper

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2018, 12:57:10 PM »
Yeah, alot of shooters become obsessed with power and forget about ease of operation and accuracy. Losing a few fps for a lighter cocking-stroke is a fair trade.

BTW, these are kinda fun/ez to convert to .22. My 2004 tosses .22 Hobbies @ 340 fps,  still stiff to charge it... brace it on my thigh, and try not to catch ur shirt tail (not to mention essential parts of ur anatomy) during the closing stroke.
  • Bertram Texas
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Offline d-cuttler

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2018, 05:20:00 PM »
Well I went too far, and reduced the compression to the point where the gun would not fire with a pellet in it. It would just hiss. This is interesting because up until now as I removed material from the piston, the trajectory remaind the same!

I think the pressure was reduced to a point where the valve would not work properly.

I took it apart, partially filled the bore I machined with a little 5 minute epoxy, and the gun is now shooting fine again. I can still cock it with 2 hands without too much effort, so I think I will leave it alone. This is coming from someone who is 80 years old and has arthritis in both hands.

If anyone is interested in doing this modification, I weighed the piston, and with the set screw, and o-ring it was 94 g and still working well. I did not have any problems until I got down around 93 g or less.

I read on another site where it was reccomended to insert  4-40 set screws to keep the steel pins from moving, so I picked up some at Ace Hardware, and screwed them in. They will create their own threads. You do not need a tap.

The final improvement was to enlarge the slot where the hamner/latch is located to allow the use of a pellet pen. Easy to do with a dremel tool, and a round burr.

Overall this has been a satisfying project, and I feel the P17 is now worth way more than I paid for it.
  • USA, CA, Oakland
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Online cobalt327

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2018, 05:42:59 PM »
Good job adapting it to suit you.
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Offline bandg

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2018, 07:40:12 PM »
Certainly good work but I wonder if you had a pistol with a manufacturing error.  I have several P17's and none are difficult to cock but I'm only 60 with just some signs of arthritis showing up and that may be the difference.  In any event, good work making it function.
  • Hensley, Arkansas

Offline d-cuttler

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2018, 08:29:38 PM »
Certainly good work but I wonder if you had a pistol with a manufacturing error.  I have several P17's and none are difficult to cock but I'm only 60 with just some signs of arthritis showing up and that may be the difference.  In any event, good work making it function.

I don't think my gun is an anomaly, because there are reports about it being hard to cock all over the internet. Right now you may be doing ok, but in a few years, you may change your mind.

There are constant reports of failed seals and other issues that probably are directly related to the stress the high pressure and mechanical stress of cocking places on them. I owned a Gamo compact that operated well for almost 25 years and I never changed any parts, or seals. I never lubed it either.

I can say the same for a Daisy match rifle that was also made by Gamo. It was a single stroke, and again never required any seals or maintenance. It was still going strong a few months ago when I sold it to another shooter, who is loving it.

I have never had an opportunity to test fire the German pistol it was based on, but i would be willing to bet it was much easier to operate than the P17. This is what happens when a company tries to clone a product without paying attention to the details.

Also it is a PIA to insert pellets into the barrel, which could have been easily corrected. My Gamo Compact and FAS 6004 both made inserting pellets less difficult.

Please do not think I am complaining, because for what these guns cost, they are a steal. All I am saying is with a little attention to detail prior to making plastic molds, and approving the dimensions of the piston,  and other parts, these issues would have gone away at zero cost to manufacture.

It would not surprise me that they handed one of the German guns to a factory in China and said "make me some of these, " and never test fired a sample, or spent any time to QC the first production run.
  • USA, CA, Oakland
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Offline bandg

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2018, 08:57:51 PM »
Glad you have it where it is comfortable for you.  Enjoy it.
  • Hensley, Arkansas

Offline d-cuttler

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2018, 09:18:04 PM »
Glad you have it where it is comfortable for you.  Enjoy it.

Thanks I am enjoying the pistol, and if it ever dies for other reasons, I will buy another, and swap out the modified parts.
  • USA, CA, Oakland
Crosman Challenger
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Beeman P17 (2)
CZ Slavia 631
PP700SA
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Offline d-cuttler

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2018, 09:54:49 PM »
New problems.

Thinking I had everything fixed, It started to make the hissing sound again, and would not fire the pellet. I went to bed rather frustrated, and it did keep me up while I lay in bed thinking about it. I came to the conclusion that there must be a leak at the breach o-ring, and when the pressure was very high prior to boring out the piston, it would fire the pellet even while leaking at the breech.

With so little money invested, I decided to give it a hard look. The first thing did was remove the barrel, and discovered is concentric rings across the face where it meets the o-ring. I chucked the barrel in my lathe, and taking very light cuts smoothed it out. Next using 600 wet & dry, I polished the face very smooth. and wrapped some 600 wet & dry around a pencil and polished the surface where the pellet is inserted.

Next came the breech block which was very uneven, had rough casting marks and protrusions. I wrapped some 200 wet & dry around a steel tool bit, and sanded off all the high spots, following with 600 wet and dry. There is no need to make it perfect, just remove the high spots to allow the barrel to compress the o-ring.



After cleaning it up with some electrical contact cleaner, I reinstalled the barrel but did not completely tighten the two screws. I read on another web site where they recommended using 2 thicknesses of computer paper as a gauge to set the distance between the barrel and the breech block, which is what I did taping the paper in place.

Next closed the gun, and using the back of a drill bit pushed the barrel hard against the breech block. Opened the gun, removed the paper gauge, and reinstalled the o-ring giving it a light coating of silicon grease.

Everything worked great, and I was able to fire a lot of pellets without any failures. This made me think, that maybe I did not need the epoxy I used to partially fill the hole I bored it the piston. Out with the piston, chucked it back in the lathe, and removed the epoxy with a boring bar. Reassembled the gun, and it is firing all kinds of pellets without failure, and it is very easy to cock.

This has been an interesting project, and I have had the gun apart so many times, I think I should have inserted a zipper! Anyway it is going to be fun shooting it until a  new gremlin rears itís head.
  • USA, CA, Oakland
Crosman Challenger
FAS 6004
Beeman P17 (2)
CZ Slavia 631
PP700SA
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Offline d-cuttler

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2018, 09:58:54 PM »
More photos
  • USA, CA, Oakland
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Offline trackerbuddy

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2018, 10:11:02 PM »
I just received my new Marksman 2004 pistol today, and the first thing I discovered is I did not have enough strength to cock it. I had to place the gun on my work bench and lean on it to get the gun to close.

I am coming from a Gamo Compact, and while it was stiff, I used it for over 20 years until it finally fell apart! I then purchased an FAS 6004, which requires half the  pressure of the Gamo to close it. The Beeman Marksman / P17 as it came out of the package, is a real bear to close.

On the other hand the stock trigger released smoothly at 20 oz, and it appears to be very accurate. What to do?

I took the piston out to see if I could turn the face down in my lathe. The first thing I found was the set screw locking the cross pin was loose.

I took off as much as I could off the piston checking by firing a pellet each time. The elevation in the group never changed, and it was still too hard the close. Not wanting to get too close to the o-ring groove I started to bore material out of the center of the piston, again checking the elevation by firing sone pellets.

After many times taking a little more out of the piston, it now cocks as easy as my old Gamo Compact, and the elevation has remained constant.

In the future I may keep removing material from the piston until I start to see a drop in elevation making it even easier to cock, and surely saving stress on all of the gun's components.

All the stress of charging this gun in it's stock condition may be the cause of all of the mystery failures we keep hearing about. I think my work so far proves that the charging pressure is way too high for 10 meter shooting.

We got two subjects going here but this is how i fixed the cocking issues with the P17.  No more pinched shirts for me
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=127588.0
  • Dayton OH
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Offline d-cuttler

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2018, 10:40:57 PM »
Kent,

I just looked at your extender, and if I did not have a lathe, and the ablity to do the rework I did, I probably would have jumped on your extender. However one thing my mod did is to dramatically reduce the mechanical stress while cocking the gun, not to mention reducing the extreme pressure, which must be effecing the life of seals and other components.

At first I was convinced the design, and the very high air pressure was just sloppy engineering and poor QC, but it may have been an intentional decision, because the high compression covered up some other really poor manufacturing. If I had never reduced the compression, I never would have become aware of the leaking breech seal.

After I have used it for awhile, the next project will be working on the trigger.
  • USA, CA, Oakland
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Online cobalt327

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2018, 11:03:02 PM »
The cocking aid costs about $30 with shipping to GA so I'll pass. Good idea though.
  • GA, USA

Offline WyoMan

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2018, 11:27:58 PM »
Hi David, I made several trigger mods but finally found one that worked for me. Here's one idea:

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=129587.0

After the mod, the trigger was almost as good as my FAS 6004. What I've found with these high compression SSPs, is that you need to use the two-stage trigger to have a crisp (zero creep) break and still be safe. The mod only changed the trigger position for where it broke.... and the really nice thing - it fully resets if you let off without firing... Don't mess with the tension spring!

I did not have the excessive compression (hard to cock) problem at 7000' elevation but I can understand that issue at lower elevations.
No problems with pinching anything in this configuration - the scope makes an excellent cocking handle  :D



If you're interested, here's how I hacked it up:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?PHPSESSID=e954948fe94de2ab9cf24294ace04a00&topic=122164.0
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?PHPSESSID=e954948fe94de2ab9cf24294ace04a00&topic=122165.0

Wyo

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Offline d-cuttler

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2018, 12:10:01 AM »
Hi David, I made several trigger mods but finally found one that worked for me. Here's one idea:

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=129587.0

After the mod, the trigger was almost as good as my FAS 6004. What I've found with these high compression SSPs, is that you need to use the two-stage trigger to have a crisp (zero creep) break and still be safe. The mod only changed the trigger position for where it broke.... and the really nice thing - it fully resets if you let off without firing... Don't mess with the tension spring!

I did not have the excessive compression (hard to cock) problem at 7000' elevation but I can understand that issue at lower elevations.
No problems with pinching anything in this configuration - the scope makes an excellent cocking handle  :D



If you're interested, here's how I hacked it up:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?PHPSESSID=e954948fe94de2ab9cf24294ace04a00&topic=122164.0
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?PHPSESSID=e954948fe94de2ab9cf24294ace04a00&topic=122165.0

Wyo

Thats a P17 on steroids!

Also an interesting mod for the trigger. What did get my attention was a reference to inserting a shim ring at the step near the front of the barrel. I may look into doing that, because if the breech seal is not compressed, the gun will not operate under reduced pressure. I may take apart again to measure the diameter of the muzzle section, and look for some shim washers. Then the strap that holds the barrel in place becomes more of a retainer.
  • USA, CA, Oakland
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Offline Tater

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2018, 07:10:11 AM »
Great pics David, very informative thread.
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Offline avator

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2018, 07:37:51 AM »
Hi David, I made several trigger mods but finally found one that worked for me. Here's one idea:

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=129587.0

After the mod, the trigger was almost as good as my FAS 6004. What I've found with these high compression SSPs, is that you need to use the two-stage trigger to have a crisp (zero creep) break and still be safe. The mod only changed the trigger position for where it broke.... and the really nice thing - it fully resets if you let off without firing... Don't mess with the tension spring!

I did not have the excessive compression (hard to cock) problem at 7000' elevation but I can understand that issue at lower elevations.
No problems with pinching anything in this configuration - the scope makes an excellent cocking handle  :D



If you're interested, here's how I hacked it up:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?PHPSESSID=e954948fe94de2ab9cf24294ace04a00&topic=122164.0
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?PHPSESSID=e954948fe94de2ab9cf24294ace04a00&topic=122165.0

Wyo
This don't surprise me in the least.. Gary is the air pistol GURU .
  • From deep within the Rabbit Hole, Alabama
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Offline d-cuttler

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2018, 08:29:53 PM »
OK, I know there are a lot of anal folks in air gun land that obsess about velocity, and stuff like that, so I decided to run some tests on my modified P17 to find out what boring out the piston to reduce pressure, and make it easier to cock did to its performance.

I really stepped up to the plate, using the cheap low rent wadcutter pellets that Crosman sells in bulk for $11.95 in milk cartons of 1250. Thatís less than one cent per shot. Yes I confess I have been accused of being a big spender!

I shot about 10 rounds, but did not really count, and here are the Chrony results:

Average    297.1 FPS
SD      3.46   FPS

This may not suit the Rambo big game hunters out there, but at 10 meters using cheap national targets pinned to a cardboard backing, I am getting nice clean holes. What more can I ask for?
  • USA, CA, Oakland
Crosman Challenger
FAS 6004
Beeman P17 (2)
CZ Slavia 631
PP700SA
Diana 52 177
Norica Black Eagle 177

Offline jnjhess

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2018, 08:51:35 PM »
Amen to that, David.
  • USA, Mississippi, Lucedale.
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Offline bandg

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2018, 05:45:22 AM »
That is really what these pistols are best for-short range accurate shooting.  If you want a little more velocity try the lead free pellets-Predator makes some really good ones but they are a little expensive and may not be as accurate.  The bulk wadcutters shooting small holes should be just fine.
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Offline avator

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2018, 07:18:49 AM »
Exactly... The perfect mouser. No smelly litter box and it won't cough up a hair ball.
  • From deep within the Rabbit Hole, Alabama
Favorite Everyday Shooters:
Sam Yang Sumatra 2500 carbine .25
Urban .22
AirMax Varmint w/ .22 CP-2 long barrel
AirMax Plinkster .177
CP1 .177 Mini Carbine
CP2 w/ .177 Varmint long barrel
XS-60C GenI .22
2-22XX Carbine HPA .177
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Blaze NP .177
3-M/M Daisy 881
2-Mendoza RM377 .177
2-XS-12 .177
1-Hatsan 1000x .177 Carbine (Pvt. Stryker)
Various Others

AirMax Extreme MKII 4500

Vintage - too many to list

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