P 17 problem



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Offline pgritty

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P 17 problem
« on: August 23, 2018, 11:58:35 PM »
I have a pair of these pistols. Had them for a couple of years now and have had both of them apart many times. Orings, triggers issues ,... You know the usual. Lol  The other night one of them would not hold pressure. When cocked it would release all the air on closing. Took it apart, checked the orings, removed the valve, made sure the trigger mechanics were right. Still losing air on closing. Decided to remove the piston and put a few drops on alcohol through it in case there was some trash in the valve that I missed. Upon closing the piston the air and alcohol were leaking at the connection between the air cylinder and the body that holds the valve.
I thought well I had a lot of fun but this looks like a parts gun. Decided to see if that cylinder would unscrew. Caught it in some vice grips and gave it a twist. Was not moving much at all. Put the gun back together, cocked it ,....... It took air and was ready to fire.
Shot it about twenty times this evening. Accurate and fun as usual. Then whoosh. Losing air.

Had anyone else had this problem? Any repair ideas.

Still probably this best adult air gun under $50.
Pat
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Offline bandg

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2018, 02:48:20 PM »
It's been a long time since I disassembled a P17 but if I recall correctly the air tube is crimped onto the valve body/base.  Turning it probably just let a loose crimp reseal a bit.  You might be able to crimp it down some using a metal 2 piece shaft collar or similar in a vice.  Possibly a bit of epoxy sealer place along the juntion might seal it as well.  As you note, a couple of years use for the price is pretty hard to beat.
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Offline cobalt327

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2018, 03:00:28 PM »
From here: http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/derricks-beeman-p17-overhaul-finale.html. May not be your problem but something to look at:

"Updated note:
I've gotten many questions about P17's dumping their air on the closing stroke. Mine started doing this the other day and I immediately assumed it was the air valve not seating. A rebuild of the air valve showed nothing was wrong and the problem continued. Close examination revealed that the sear wasn't catching the hammer consistently. Sometimes it worked fine, then--whoosh. Frustrating. It appears that the problem was the v-shaped hammer spring binding inside the grip frame. I'd put the rear end of the spring into the left grip panel on reassembly and that's not the way to do it. The tail end of the spring must be seated into the RIGHT grip panel or the spring will bind."
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Offline bandg

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2018, 07:04:01 PM »
Very true, Mark.  I've read this summation before and it was helpful.  OP did note having the pistols apart many times and I assumed he would know to check that.  Shouldn't assume. 
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Offline pgritty

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2018, 11:34:01 PM »
Appreciate the feedback guys. I had checked for binding the trigger area with the grip off of the gun. Funny you should mention another airgun blog, I am trying to read that entire blog. Fascinating stuff. That blog really helped me have the confidence to tear into the p17 in the first place. Which gave me the confidence to work on most any ' simple' airgun.

I follow your stuff to Mark, great fun with the Daisy. Found your stuff while trying to repair a friend's Daisy 99.

Bandg, I think you are on to something about that metal 2 piece shaft collar, but I have no idea what that is. Will Google it. Maybe just tweek it again and epoxy it down.   

Thanks again y'all,
Pat
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Offline cobalt327

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2018, 04:48:26 AM »
Yeah, the Another Airgun Blog is a very interesting place. Some of his repairs involving machining parts are beyond my abilities but still very informative. A good source for disassembly photos of guns not usually seen.

I still mess with the Daisy lever BB guns- that's what brought me back into airguns, and I'll likely always work on them and no doubt will always own at least a few of them.
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Offline pgritty

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2018, 12:51:07 PM »
I shoot the Daisy's at spinners @ 10 meters. When you get the mechanics down so you can drop the gun down to cock and bring it up on target for a multiple hits, it's very satisfying. Picked up a Crosman v350. Fun shooter, just need to get a Daisy model 25 and should be set for bb guns.
Pat
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Offline pgritty

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2018, 10:06:56 PM »
Pulled the gun apart. Tested with soapy water, leaking at the crimped joint. Cleaned and degreased joint. Put epoxy around joint and let set overnight. Put back together. Whoosh. Leaking. Blew out epoxy.
Pulled back apart and put epoxy on inside of air tube. Set overnight.
Put gun back together. It shot 4 or 5 times....Then whoosh. Parts gun for sure.
 I may still try to remove the air tube just to see what kind of seal it has.
Pat
  • Houston Texas

Offline ron_c

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2018, 12:05:55 AM »
It might also be the O Ring is defective down by the tube when it is crimped.
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Offline cobalt327

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2018, 10:24:08 AM »
Disregard.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 10:28:15 AM by cobalt327 »
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Offline pgritty

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2018, 01:21:30 PM »
Ron, Is that a p 17 or the p 3? How did you get that crimp out?
Pat
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Offline ron_c

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2018, 01:56:19 PM »
I do not recall where I found the photo but I believe it is for the P17.  How to remove the crimp, I have no idea and in the photo, it appears to be a replacement custom tube as it doesn't show any kind of crimp on the end of the tube.

I was thinking, if you use epoxy, instead of putting it on the outside where the pressure will tend to blow out the epoxy, how about removing all lube from the end of the tube (crimp end) and putting epoxy around the tube there.  It won't be easy but maybe it will hold.
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Offline Ultramarine

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2018, 01:58:37 PM »
Mine did just the same so I considered realigning the "BK136" part (ref. in the HW40 exploded view .)
It worked (October 2017) and still works now. .
If this can help...
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Offline pgritty

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2018, 03:01:51 PM »
Yves, the trigger mechanism is working. It will hold a tiny amount of air, enough to push out a pellet at, my guess, 150 fps. The air is coming out of the crimp  on the air tube at the body where the valve resides.
Ron, I appreciate the picture and looking as closely as I can on the monitor. It appears the crimps have been filed and polished off of the tube. Will try to disassemble and maybe JB weld the tube to the body. Nothing to lose at this point. Also I had cleaned and put epoxy on the inside of the tube. Maybe it wasn't clean enough but it did not hold past a few shots. Better than when it was on the outside as that failed immediately.
Thanks for the input everyone,
Pat
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Offline d-cuttler

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2018, 05:17:41 PM »
I just received my new Marksman 2004 pistol today, and the first thing I discovered is I did not have enough strength to cock it. I had to place the gun on my work bench and lean on it to get the gun to close.

I am coming from a Gamo Compact, and while it was stiff, I used it for over 20 years until it finally fell apart! I then purchased an FAS 6004, which requires half the  pressure of the Gamo to close it. The Beeman Marksman / P17 as it came out of the package, is a real bear to close.

On the other hand the stock trigger released smoothly at 20 oz, and it appears to be very accurate. What to do?

I took the piston out to see if I could turn the face down in my lathe. The first thing I found was the set screw locking the cross pin was loose.

I took off as much as I could off the piston checking by firing a pellet each time. The elevation in the group never changed, and it was still too hard the close. Not wanting to get too close to the o-ring groove I started to bore material out of the center of the piston, again checking the elevation by firing sone pellets.

After many times taking a little more out of the piston, it now cocks as easy as my old Gamo Compact, and the elevation has remained constant.

In the future I may keep removing material from the piston until I start to see a drop in elevation making it even easier to cock, and surely saving stress on all of the gun's components.

All the stress of charging this gun in it's stock condition may be the cause of all of the mystery failures we keep hearing about. I think my work so far proves that the charging pressure is way too high for 10 meter shooting.

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Norica Black Eagle 177

Offline d-cuttler

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2018, 08:04:31 PM »
Modified piston
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CZ Slavia 631
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Offline bandg

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2018, 08:27:53 PM »
Interesting problem and solution.  You could always add material back where removed if necessary so removing it as you did seems to be a well handled task.  Congratulations.
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Offline d-cuttler

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2018, 08:32:11 PM »
Yes. I have removed even more from the piston, with the knowledge that if I go to far, I can always apply some epoxy in the hole.
  • USA, CA, Oakland
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Beeman P17 (2)
CZ Slavia 631
PP700SA
Diana 52 177
Norica Black Eagle 177

Offline pgritty

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2018, 09:17:41 PM »
Nice work and interesting solution to the hard cocking issue. For the first year or so I wore a glove on my left hand when cocking. Either my hand got tougher or it became easier to cock. Do you think it if you drilled out some material from the piston it would accomplish the same result?
Pat
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Offline d-cuttler

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Re: P 17 problem
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2018, 09:25:38 PM »
I am still removing more material from the piston with no lose of elevation when shooting it. I believe that if Beeman was to pay more attention to the design and manufacturing of these guns, most of the defects would go away, abd folks would not be returning them in such high numbers.

If you ever have the chance to cock an FSA 6004, you will be amazed at how easy it is to cock. That is the direction I am working for.
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Crosman Challenger
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Beeman P17 (2)
CZ Slavia 631
PP700SA
Diana 52 177
Norica Black Eagle 177

How do you word it... "Air Guns" or "AirGuns"?