0.177 vs 0.22 pellets, if the same weight and shape

[AlanMcD]

Greg, I have the .22 PP700 (the Gen I version from MrodAir) and it is as forgiving on pellet selection as everyone says.  It is a great shooter for sure, and I highly recommend it.

I bought mine mostly for paper punching, and went with the .22 for two reasons - I already had a huge stash of .22 pellets with lots of different types to try, and for single shot loading I simply prefer the larger .22 cal pellets.  Those .177 are getting hard to see without cheaters anymore!

Now than you have declared that you want this pistol, I'd say the whole "which is better" thing is a moot point.  Unless you plan to build the pistol into a carbine, I doubt you will be using it for pesting or hunting out past 50 yards.  The gun is probably accurate enough, but most pistol sized sights are not going to support that, and there are much better options for that task.

So get whichever you prefer.  The real difference is that .22 will cost more per pellet than .177 (but not that much more) and you can tune for a few more shots at a reasonable velocity with a .177 (but not that many more). 

I have mine set up to shoot at ~11 FPE and I get ~40 shots at under 2.5% ES. I am very happy with the gun, the shot string, and the accuracy.  I wish it was a bit quieter, but the gun sure is nice.

[anti-squirrel]

Peter, so far I have heard consistently that SPA guns are not pellet picky. So I believe this is true for .22 as well. I was assessing which one is more energy efficient.  From the discussions it appears that .22 will be more efficient.

Yup.  Pretty typical in PCPs for the .22 to have that edge.

I picked .177 for mine because- among other things-  I knew I would be less tempted to take longer shots on vermin.  Once I got mine and discovered just how accurate it was, I went ahead and gave in to temptation with excellent results.

I've been saying since I bought mine last October it's the best money in a PCP one can spend; nothing touches it at 2 times the cost once you factor in everything it comes with.  Adjustable everything, great accuracy, and nonsensitivity to pellet choices.  At the time I was leaning strongly toward a PRod... I made a spreadsheet with every PCP (rifle and pistol) I could find, then started adding points for features I wanted and were practical.  This came out on top.

I went through struggles as well, especially when the Prod was on sale this summer for sub $300. Prod is famous for its quietness. It also comes with stock for carbine conversion. For PP700 I will have to get a suppressor to use at home. The advantage is that the PP700 has a regulator, although it does not work as well.

Actually, noise level and the carbine stock were non-issues in my list.  I was looking for adjustability and size (a true pistol) once I confirmed I wanted a pistol.  Plus I had a whole bunch of .177 caliber pellets already.  Since it is backyard shooting mostly, the PP700 in .177 made perfect sense.  I haven't had problems with my regulator as long as I don't crank it up for max power.  Shot count is 40+ as Alan describes, and accuracy still blows me away.  I have can go from my lightest pellets to more than double, every imaginable pellet shape, and still just shift my aim or adjust my reticle and hit the spot I want all day long at 15, 20, 30, and even 40 yards.  Using a pistol with one bag and a crummy 3-9x32 Optimus rifle scope.  At some point, I'd like to get the .22 as they're just easier to handle for my fingers. 

To build on what Alan says, it could probably do fine at 50 yards, but realistically, if you intend to hunt small game or shoot vermin at that range, there are better tools for the money- the PR900W comes to mind, but even the PRod would be better on account of the ease with which you can add the Crosman 1399 carbine stock.

Now for what it is worth, I have shot a goodly number of pellets through mine (around 6000?) and have had multiple days where I refilled it in one shooting session.  On 2 of those occasions, I refilled using my Benjamin handpump 14 times.  LOL, those last couple times my groups started growing as it was hard holding the gun steady 

Alan- David (Rocker1) makes a very slick carbon fiber LDC for the PP700.  I highly recommend it.  Taking the crack out even at 12 FPE energy levels makes for a more pleasant day of shooting. 

[Wolverineshooter]

Greg, I have the .22 PP700 (the Gen I version from MrodAir) and it is as forgiving on pellet selection as everyone says.  It is a great shooter for sure, and I highly recommend it.

I bought mine mostly for paper punching, and went with the .22 for two reasons - I already had a huge stash of .22 pellets with lots of different types to try, and for single shot loading I simply prefer the larger .22 cal pellets.  Those .177 are getting hard to see without cheaters anymore!

Now than you have declared that you want this pistol, I'd say the whole "which is better" thing is a moot point.  Unless you plan to build the pistol into a carbine, I doubt you will be using it for pesting or hunting out past 50 yards.  The gun is probably accurate enough, but most pistol sized sights are not going to support that, and there are much better options for that task.

So get whichever you prefer.  The real difference is that .22 will cost more per pellet than .177 (but not that much more) and you can tune for a few more shots at a reasonable velocity with a .177 (but not that many more). 

I have mine set up to shoot at ~11 FPE and I get ~40 shots at under 2.5% ES. I am very happy with the gun, the shot string, and the accuracy.  I wish it was a bit quieter, but the gun sure is nice.

Thanks Alan.I used to be in Michigan.

I got lots 0.177 and 0.22 pellets, mostly cheap stuff for plinking. I will use the pistol for hunting so likely I will get higher quality ammo for that.

At home I plinking with break barrels to get some exercise, and the challenge (frustration).

40 shots at 11fpe is pretty efficient. I think if you bump to 16fpe you will get about 23 shots

[Wolverineshooter]

Peter, so far I have heard consistently that SPA guns are not pellet picky. So I believe this is true for .22 as well. I was assessing which one is more energy efficient.  From the discussions it appears that .22 will be more efficient.

Yup.  Pretty typical in PCPs for the .22 to have that edge.

I picked .177 for mine because- among other things-  I knew I would be less tempted to take longer shots on vermin.  Once I got mine and discovered just how accurate it was, I went ahead and gave in to temptation with excellent results.

I've been saying since I bought mine last October it's the best money in a PCP one can spend; nothing touches it at 2 times the cost once you factor in everything it comes with.  Adjustable everything, great accuracy, and nonsensitivity to pellet choices.  At the time I was leaning strongly toward a PRod... I made a spreadsheet with every PCP (rifle and pistol) I could find, then started adding points for features I wanted and were practical.  This came out on top.

I went through struggles as well, especially when the Prod was on sale this summer for sub $300. Prod is famous for its quietness. It also comes with stock for carbine conversion. For PP700 I will have to get a suppressor to use at home. The advantage is that the PP700 has a regulator, although it does not work as well.

Actually, noise level and the carbine stock were non-issues in my list.  I was looking for adjustability and size (a true pistol) once I confirmed I wanted a pistol.  Plus I had a whole bunch of .177 caliber pellets already.  Since it is backyard shooting mostly, the PP700 in .177 made perfect sense.  I haven't had problems with my regulator as long as I don't crank it up for max power.  Shot count is 40+ as Alan describes, and accuracy still blows me away.  I have can go from my lightest pellets to more than double, every imaginable pellet shape, and still just shift my aim or adjust my reticle and hit the spot I want all day long at 15, 20, 30, and even 40 yards.  Using a pistol with one bag and a crummy 3-9x32 Optimus rifle scope.  At some point, I'd like to get the .22 as they're just easier to handle for my fingers. 

To build on what Alan says, it could probably do fine at 50 yards, but realistically, if you intend to hunt small game or shoot vermin at that range, there are better tools for the money- the PR900W comes to mind, but even the PRod would be better on account of the ease with which you can add the Crosman 1399 carbine stock.

Now for what it is worth, I have shot a goodly number of pellets through mine (around 6000?) and have had multiple days where I refilled it in one shooting session.  On 2 of those occasions, I refilled using my Benjamin handpump 14 times.  LOL, those last couple times my groups started growing as it was hard holding the gun steady 

Alan- David (Rocker1) makes a very slick carbon fiber LDC for the PP700.  I highly recommend it.  Taking the crack out even at 12 FPE energy levels makes for a more pleasant day of shooting.

Peter, my scenario is somewhat different as I am looking to use it more for hunting.

Since I already have a AT44Q10 0.25 which is very accurate, I will use that for larger or far away targets. I like to have a pistol with me as a backup and also to take care smaller targets in shorter range. How short will depend on how well  I can handle it and how accurate the gun is. I have seen videos people gets hogs with 20fpe .22 so if I can crack the power to 16-20fpe I think the pistol can take care a lot of stuff, and I may even just carry the pistol to lighten the load!

I have a compressor so hopefully I will not get into physical exhaustive situation like you did.

[Wolverineshooter]

Finally I have ordered the 0.22 caliber PP700 pistol! Thanks all for the discussion.

[Ribbonstone]

Hope you have as much fun and use from it as I've had....really has been an amazing value.

Will take another bite of the dark-side same-weight-different-caliber cookie.


Lets say you have two different PCP rifles.  Either on can launce 16ish grain pellets to 920fps.  One is a .177 (16.2gr. JSB's) and the other a .22 (15.9-16gr. JSB's)...oot exact matching weights, but close enough.

So they both start off with about 30-31 foot pounds at the muzzle.


Actually turns out that the BC's are not all that far apart....agree that they should be, but real world testing/published figures don't  show a whole lot of difference.

(Am tired of harping on this song....but while you would think BC was kind of fixed in stone....it's not.  One rifle/barrel will often earn more or less than the next one.  Likely depends on various extra motions the pellet picks up (nutation/precession mostly) and  how chewed up by rifling the expised outwer most edges).

So take published BC numbers with a grain-of-salt...were likely true for that rifle/taht barrel, but may not be true for your rifle. your barrel.


What I can tell you is that it has always taken more air per shot to get the same weight in a smaller bore up to the speed of the same weight in a larger bore.

LArger bore has the advatage of more pellet base area to push on (it's that "per square inch" thing that is part of PSI).

So with a small bore we can't increase pressure past the rifle'sw max....so we can't increase the push on the base of a smaller diameter pellet,,...so all we can do is push LONGER (eject more air so the push is maintined longer).

[rsterne]

So with a small bore we can't increase pressure past the rifle'sw max....so we can't increase the push on the base of a smaller diameter pellet,,...so all we can do is push LONGER (eject more air so the push is maintined longer).

Yep, until the valve is open when the pellet exits, which is then the maximum FPE for that pellet / barrel / pressure / port size combination....

Bob

[Wolverineshooter]

I wonder why the BC for .177 is not much better than the.22 given the theoretical possibilities.  Is that the designers did not push enough research?

[rsterne]

Not sure I understand your statement.... The SD and therefore the BC for similar pellet shapes are proportional to the caliber.... ie  .25 > .22 > .20 > .177....

It is only when you use extra heavy pellets in .177 and extra light ones in .22 that the SD and BC favours the smaller caliber....  This trend applies to all guns, both air and PB.... Bigger bullets carry further.... hence the reason for 16-18" Naval guns.... and why the Sniper's weapon of choice is the .50 BMG round....

Bob

[skorec]

So with a small bore we can't increase pressure past the rifle'sw max....so we can't increase the push on the base of a smaller diameter pellet,,...so all we can do is push LONGER (eject more air so the push is maintined longer).

Yep, until the valve is open when the pellet exits, which is then the maximum FPE for that pellet / barrel / pressure / port size combination....

Bob

If I understand right  disadvantage of higher pressure and more air necessity  for smaller calibers can be reduce by longer barrel.
Unfortunately too long  barrel have  to be also ticker or tensioned for good accuracy .
How long are barrels and shrouds  at Gauntlet and SPA/Artemis  M22 ?

Peter

[Wolverineshooter]

Not sure I understand your statement.... The SD and therefore the BC for similar pellet shapes are proportional to the caliber.... ie  .25 > .22 > .20 > .177....

It is only when you use extra heavy pellets in .177 and extra light ones in .22 that the SD and BC favours the smaller caliber....  This trend applies to all guns, both air and PB.... Bigger bullets carry further.... hence the reason for 16-18" Naval guns.... and why the Sniper's weapon of choice is the .50 BMG round....

Bob

I am referring to the equal weights situation you did the calculation earlier

[rsterne]

I see little point in "pushing research" on pellets for such an unusual situation where the larger caliber is being handicapped by the question proposed.... It would appear pellet manufacturers have the same opinion.... although heavier pellets are becoming available in all calibers as PCPs become more powerful.... For the ultimate in performance with high SD projectiles, you need to look at bullets instead of pellets....

Bob

[anti-squirrel]

Not sure I understand your statement.... The SD and therefore the BC for similar pellet shapes are proportional to the caliber.... ie  .25 > .22 > .20 > .177....

It is only when you use extra heavy pellets in .177 and extra light ones in .22 that the SD and BC favours the smaller caliber....  This trend applies to all guns, both air and PB.... Bigger bullets carry further.... hence the reason for 16-18" Naval guns.... and why the Sniper's weapon of choice is the .50 BMG round....

Bob

I am referring to the equal weights situation you did the calculation earlier

in equal weights, this will end up skewing things automatically in favor of the smaller caliber.  The only time I would really recommend going with a smaller caliber at a heavier weight is when limited by caliber size (such as folks in Illinois deal with) or when there's a gun pointedly favors heavy pellets such as the Sumatra or some of the SPA models.

An argument can be made for when penetration is paramount, but given how lower energy levels can still pass through prey, I personally go for a larger caliber with the most accurate pellet, even if it is slower, because a pass-through means I have to worry about what is behind the prey.  Hunters and those who are pesting on wide-open spaces may not have such concerns, so in those, everything should be dictated by "most accurate" and nothing else.

[Wolverineshooter]

Thanks Bob and Peter. Since I already ordered the 22 version, so my question now is which would be a better hunting pellet for hunting? I saw several posts advocating polymags.

[rsterne]

Whatever is the most accurate in your gun....

Bob

[anti-squirrel]

Thanks Bob and Peter. Since I already ordered the 22 version, so my question now is which would be a better hunting pellet for hunting? I saw several posts advocating polymags.

Polymags are good, but what Bob said should be Gospel- whatever is most accurate.

If your ranges are short (and this is a pistol so I would think so) then anything you can shoot dime-size groups at the desired distance will be accurate enough for clean kills.  Although Beeman Silver Arrows are notably the most accurate in mine PP700, I have a nice assortment of others that group well enough out to 30 yards that can be used, so I trend toward JSB Ultrashocks on birds and mice.  On squirrels, Skenco New Boys and Skenco Ultra Shocks, JSB Exact Heavies and Ultrashocks, H&N Sniper Mags and Barracudas, and Beeman Silver Arrows.  The list is actually larger, but those are what I've used thus far.  If you end up having Polymags group very well, they produce great results, and FWIW, my guns that Polymags work in also do well with Gamo Redfires, which can be bought at WalMart (though they are kinda pricey for what you get).

[Wolverineshooter]

Thanks Bob and Peter again.

I only have CPHP and Ruger from Walmart so I will need to order a few more to try out. I saw red fire and red rockets by Gamo in Walmart.

[anti-squirrel]

I've found my Varmint likes those Ruger point pellets.  They're somewhere between true point and domes.  Hopefully your pistol treats them the same way my Varmint does.  That they weigh 17 grains and are a little softer than the Crosmans is a plus IMO.

I'd avoid the Gamo Rockets- never had good luck with those in anything.  Maybe one of the other folks with a PP700 can chime in.

[Ribbonstone]

Do known that in the one rifle I could find that shot the 21gr. Piledrivers well, the BC was really high (from my testing and from Harry's tests).  In the rifles that didn't shoot them well (with signs of tipping/key holing) the BC wasn't all that (like 1/3 as high).

So evidently, it does make a difference if the pellet wanders around with some yaw and wobble (nutation/pression) on the way to the target (or to the chronograph for BC tests).

Don't think it's that the small caliber pellet makers haven't tried for some long/heavy/high BC pellets....but past some point, are up against the limits of the typical .177 barrel's twist.

[rsterne]

Also, after some point, the SD is too high, and you can't get a decent velocity without excessive barrel length and/or pressure....

Bob