Beeman P3 vs P17

[Theo98]

At $35, a guy could buy 2 and shoot the one that's best...

Great idea, Ron...just what I DONE !

Ted

[Theo98]

Would buying P3 trigger parts and installing them on the P17 help in giving it a better trigger?

Tony,

Can't see how P3 parts would make for a better trigger.

My 1st P17 accurized trigger (lightly lubed contact points, stretched the 9-coil expansion spring, removed most of pre-travel with trigger adj. screw) now has a pull weight of 13oz with 3\16" pre-travel and a clean and surprising break! Yesterday, shot a 10yd 5-shot "same hole" grouping, with my red dot reflex scope installed, off a home made rest. The other four half-inch target bulls eyes 5-shot groupings were at .150 to .200" C to C!

As I stated in post #20, received a 2nd P17 this week and will keep it set-up with the included FO sights. In 5 minutes, got it's trigger accurized down from out-of-box 2.5# to 18oz pull weight, and pre-travel reduced from 5\8" to 1\8" ! Again yesterday, kept punching out 1\2" bulls eyes just using the FO sights on it!

So for now, I just don't believe swapping out with P3 parts is going to improve these P17 triggers any more than a quick and simple 5-minute TLC activity!!  As always, YMMV...

Ted

[Theo98]

Only you can answer that question, Ted.
I have both and I'm glad I have both. I believe the barrels of both are the same - but I'm not real sure. I have not experienced much difference in accuracy.
The biggest difference for me was the trigger. The HW 40 (P3) trigger feels like turning a precision dial. The P17, not so much. Some of the other things you mentioned are apparent as well...

Wyo

Well Gary, looks like I'm going to answer that question myself! Have a P3 coming at a good price (1\2 US Retail). Like you, believe I've taken the P17 trigger accurization as far as I dare, time to put these two superb paper cutters\plinkers side-by-side. Is one P3 worth "four to five P17's"...probably not. Then again, my optics birding\hunting arsenal (Swarovski & Zeiss) wasn't cheap either!! 

Ted

[Yogi]

I thought the whole point of getting a pistol is to shoot it free hand?
 

-Y

[WyoMan]

Only you can answer that question, Ted.
I have both and I'm glad I have both. I believe the barrels of both are the same - but I'm not real sure. I have not experienced much difference in accuracy.
The biggest difference for me was the trigger. The HW 40 (P3) trigger feels like turning a precision dial. The P17, not so much. Some of the other things you mentioned are apparent as well...

Wyo

Well Gary, looks like I'm going to answer that question myself! Have a P3 coming at a good price (1\2 US Retail). Like you, believe I've taken the P17 trigger accurization as far as I dare, time to put these two superb paper cutters\plinkers side-by-side. Is one P3 worth "four to five P17's"...probably not. Then again, my optics birding\hunting arsenal (Swarovski & Zeiss) wasn't cheap either!! 

Ted

Nice score, Ted - I'm sure you'll enjoy the P3. If you're like me, you'll keep them both 
Rereading this thread makes me think that someone did a brilliant job with market strategy - there is a market for both products. Life would be boring without choices...

You'll like the trigger on the P3. After initially saying that I saw no need for work, I did shorten the take-up (first stage) with a drill shank... I think you've seen the mod.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=129587.0
This also allowed the second stage to occur sooner so the total trigger travel was nearly cut in half.
The other (slight) modification I did was smooth the contact surfaces between the trigger link and the drop sear. This wasn't absolutely necessary, but.. I was taking the first stage pull to the razor's edge of break, and when I let off the trigger it didn't snap back (reset to full engagement) with enough resolve. Wasn't a big deal but I'm pretty finicky about things like that... Enjoy!

Wyo

[Theo98]

Nice score, Ted - I'm sure you'll enjoy the P3. If you're like me, you'll keep them both 
Rereading this thread makes me think that someone did a brilliant job with market strategy - there is a market for both products. Life would be boring without choices...

You'll like the trigger on the P3. After initially saying that I saw no need for work, I did shorten the take-up (first stage) with a drill shank... I think you've seen the mod.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=129587.0
This also allowed the second stage to occur sooner so the total trigger travel was nearly cut in half.
The other (slight) modification I did was smooth the contact surfaces between the trigger link and the drop sear. This wasn't absolutely necessary, but.. I was taking the first stage pull to the razor's edge of break, and when I let off the trigger it didn't snap back (reset to full engagement) with enough resolve. Wasn't a big deal but I'm pretty finicky about things like that... Enjoy!

Wyo

Thanks Gary! Yep, probably will keep them both (actually, all three)!

Curious...Would your 3\32 drill shank trigger mod work better (improved geometry) than adjustment of the installed pre-travel screw? Drilling out the bottom PT sleeve and tapping the whole channel, I was able to get the 1st stage PT down to 1\16" before a crisp 2nd stage sear break, see HERE. Either way, I'll get a tin through the P3 and get a feel for performance before making Any mods!! 

Ted 

[WyoMan]

I don't completely understand, Ted. The pre-travel screw that I think you're referring to is actually the second stage adjustment screw. It can shorten the trigger travel, but... it does so at the expense of removing the first stage. From your pictures in the link, I don't see how there are two active contact points on the trigger (to the trigger link).

I'm curious, for those that mod the second stage screw... have you turned the screw out (CCW), the opposite of your mods? The OEM setup can give you a crisp and safe second stage break. But you have to be happy with a long (really long) first stage. I shortened the first stage with the drill shank mod and couldn't be happier with the results.

Ted, just shoot it for a while.. like I did, before you cut anything 

Wyo

[Theo98]

...The pre-travel screw that I think you're referring to is actually the second stage adjustment screw. It can shorten the trigger travel, but... it does so at the expense of removing the first stage. From your pictures in the link, I don't see how there are two active contact points on the trigger (to the trigger link).

Gary,

By extending the PT screw like I described in Post#23, to my inexperienced newbie terminology, I achieved similar results as your drill shank install, "It shortened the travel of the first stage. It made the second stage occur sooner in the trigger travel-without affecting the crisp second stage". My new P17's (with their pre-travel pull weight that were equal to their sear break weight of 40oz) were just long single stage pulls (1") with a "surprised crisp breaking trigger" at the end. My spring adjustments have lightened the overall pulls and sear breaks, created a more noticeable pull weight differential (now have a semblance of a 2-stage trigger) and with the trigger pre-travel mod, have settled on a short 1st stage of 1\16" (safeties still work as designed).

Now, the P3 I received late Saturday is as you commented-has a Better Trigger!! Out-of-the-box, 1st stage pull is an easy 6oz of 1\2" PT with a crisp breaking brick wall 2nd stage of 15oz! I did adjust the PT screw, reducing the length of 1st stage pre-travel pull to an acceptable 7\32" (very livable). Without a trigger mod (such as yours or mine), the trigger PT screw CW adjustment is now bottomed out with the allowable travel on this P3. Overall, it is light and smooth and I like it a lot. However, the crisp breaking-glass-like 2nd stage quality is virtually equal to my current P17 mods. Overall, P3 components are machined SS and surfaces seem squared and trued very well. Trigger, safety and ext. hammer latch appear metal and find the polymer build very tough with a non-slip textured surface. Haven't tried the P3 for accuracy or velocity yet...sure it'll be at least equal, if not better, to the P17s.

Hope all this makes sense...I've still much to learn about air gunning, tuning, gunsmithing and mods! 

Ted, just shoot it for a while.. like I did, before you cut anything 

Wyo

Other than the shortened PT liberty I took that is allowed by the Beeman OEM design, I'll do just that...

Thanks for your patience and assistance Gary! 
 
Ted

[Theo98]

So far, have about 200 rounds through the P3. Got the iron sights set and when I don't pull a round, can get a 5-shot group touching within about a .250 spread (see target groups 3,4,9,10,12,13). This appears to closely equal my P17 #2 with fiber optic sights, as I usually create tight groupings with it. However my P17 #1, with a dialed in red dot reflex scope, nails <.250 groupings consistently! Will install the red dot reflex scope on the P3 to give it a "best shot" opportunity for accuracy! 

Overall, the P3 is everything I expected. As Gary and many others have said, the P3 has an excellent 2 stage trigger that once at the 2nd stg wall, takes less than 1\32" to break the glass...Nice! When I try to replicate that action with the P17's (OEM 2-stage), their 2nd stages have some creep to get a crisp breaking action. I can get close (2\32" & 3\32") by making them virtual single stage actions (one short steady trigger pull), but then give up any desirable short 1st stage pre-travel. The P3 overall has a better build, a better finish and a more solid feel in the hand. The machined stainless steel components (sears, springs, pins, hammer, cams, valve parts) and the steel trigger, safety and ext. over lever lock parts will probably outlast the P17's DNA. 

IMHO, if your wanting\needing the extra durability the P3 offers, or possibly the reliability\longevity it may bring, even though it appears at this time to be a relative equal in the accuracy department, then 3 to 5 times the investment (or more) certainly would be worth it! However, if you want\need to be frugal with your air gun investment, willing to put in the time and effort to tinker-repair-upgrade a P17 (if\when needed), then this option is certainly also worth it! 

Ted     

[Theo98]

After another 150 rounds or so, to my surprise, my new P3 is still 25-30fps slower than either of my P17's! Started to investigate and surprisingly, found very little lubrication on the P3 piston o-ring and inside piston tube. Changed the #117 o-ring, cleaned the tube and lubed all. That gave me an additional +10fps! Then, lubed the breech o-ring and discovered after just 10 rounds a white lithium lube blowout ring growing inside the over lever (in-line with the breech opening). Added 3-wraps of dental floss to the o-ring recess, updated the breech o-ring seal and after 200+ rounds, No More tattle-tale air leaks...This also increased my shots another 10+fps!! Cleaned the barrel rifling, however wasn't dirty and didn't add any additional velocity. Appears I'm now getting real close to the P3 stated velocities with my RWS Hobby 7.0g WC's...Nice!

I then tried some RWS Meisterkugeln 7.0g WC's. I knew these were 20 or so FPS faster in my P17s than the Hobby's, but just about 15fps faster in the P3.

Now was where the FUN Started! Got a wild idea about increasing fps as per my procedure below....

After Loading Pellet:
1.  Perform Three "30% to 60%" Over Lever Action Pumps in Very Rapid Succession (1-2 seconds).         
2.  Quickly Open Over Lever "Very Briefly" for just 1\10th of a second.          
3.  Quickly Close Over Lever and Fire within 5-10 seconds!

Here's the overall results:
PELLETS---------------------------P17#1----P17#2------P3
*RWS Hobby 7.0 WC---------------405---------415--------405
*RWS Hobby 7.0 WC-M-----------420---------430--------420

*RWS Meisterkugeln 7.0 WC------430---------440--------422
*RWS Meisterkuglen 7.0 WC-M--444---------455--------435
      -Above FPS readings are average of three-5 shot groups (15 shots each)-

These M (I call "magnum pumps") gave an extra average 15 FPS per gun, per pellet...Amazing (and Crazy)!!    This isn't something I will consistently repeat in regular target practice, just interesting to see the FPS increase in velocity. Did it make the final over lever closure harder...heck Yes! Got a full week upper body workout in just "2" days! 

Will install the red dot reflex scope on the P3 to give it a "best shot" opportunity for accuracy!

Using the P3 iron sights for the past 7-days and 500+ rounds for all of this break-in, testing, and work-out, finally mounted my P17 Rio Rand Red Dot Reflex scope for an initial Shoot-Out with the P17...attached is the quick results! Both have 15oz triggers (P3 2-stage, P17 single stage), both sears break like glass, both handle almost identically (P3 safety switch is Stiff) and both load pellets - compress pneumatics equally! Was the P3 worth 4X the P17 price tag (what I paid)...IMHO...No! But, the P3 is a solid pistol and I expect it to outlast me, and my two boys!

Ted

[Theo98]

...the P3 is a solid pistol and I expect it to outlast me, and my two boys!

Well, after 5K rounds through my Beeman SPP's, the P3 was the first to bite the dust!! 
 
 FPS started to drop off, first down to 385, then 360, then all the way down to 325fps. Before pulling the trigger, could hear a faint "air-leaking" sound coming from the air valve after closing the over-lever. Cleaned and re-greased the air valve with super-lube, but the stem shaft o-ring still wanted to leak air. The valve shaft nut on the P3 is pinged very-solidly in place, so I called Air Venturi tech services to get their take on replacing that 008 o-ring. It was recommended that before replacement, I should remove any grease on the o-rings and add Crosman PellgunOil (designed for pneumatic o-ring seals). Cleaned the grease off the air valve and piston\breach o-rings. That worked well, as the fps came back up to 365 fps, and after 10 minutes of loading\pumping up, maintained that same fps! Decided to reset the barrel 1\64th closer to the breach seal. That allowed the fps to settle at 405fps with RWS Hobby 7.0 WC's...now closer to my P17's (#1@412fps, #2@413fps)!! 
 
 Since both my P17's would slowly loose air pressure (drop 10-15fps for every 5 minute delay of being pumped up), performed the same Grease Removal\PellgunOil application to all of their o-rings. Now, they hold their pumped up pressures within 1fps over 10 minutes of delayed shooting!! According to Air Venturi (US Beeman P3 service group), all they use on any single or multi pump air pneumatics is the PellgunOil (kind of looks-feels like transmission oil)! This Is petroleum based, thus Do Not use in break barrels, springers or PCP!
 
 I periodically check my air gun fps readings, so will report back if this lubrication method maintains all of the o-ring seal performances (long-term)! 
 
 Ted

[Ultramarine]

(...)
Now was where the FUN Started! Got a wild idea about increasing fps as per my procedure below....

After Loading Pellet:
1.  Perform Three "30% to 60%" Over Lever Action Pumps in Very Rapid Succession (1-2 seconds).         
2.  Quickly Open Over Lever "Very Briefly" for just 1\10th of a second.          
3.  Quickly Close Over Lever and Fire within 5-10 seconds!

I involuntarily experimented this magnum pumping method when my P17 trigger failed to lock.  I had discovered that when I partially "pre-pumped" a few strokes, the trigger would lock -sometimes. The issue was somewhere else but I realized that  doing so, the pistol would be  slightly  more powerful. Once the real issue fixed, I tried that method again and noticed the same impression (got no chrony, just looking how much dented or punched a tin is...) But as you said, it's not something you would do before every shot !

As for the valve leaking air, I recently changed ALL my O'rings with original ones from a Bristish supplier, and I have to admit things are actually getting better. BTW, a small string of PTFE tape under the valve bigger O'ring does no harm, nor gently de-stressing its spring.

[Theo98]

As for the valve leaking air, I recently changed ALL my O'rings with original ones from a Bristish supplier, and I have to admit things are actually getting better. BTW, a small string of PTFE tape under the valve bigger O'ring does no harm, nor gently de-stressing its spring.

Yves,

Good to hear your P17 is working well. Compared to my P3, found the valve springs "stronger and sealing on the valve stems better" in the P17's. Just like my P3, still cleaned them up and added the Crosman Pellgun oil to lubricate and maintain good o-ring air seal integrity in both P17's (air valve-piston-breech locations)! For extra insurance, added 2 wraps of PTFE to the valve stem brass threaded nut (no o-ring seal there...just tension)!

FWIW, was informed this AM (on another AG forum) that Pellgun Oil is actually THIS. Crosman's MSDS for Pellgun Oil is exactly the same as this 8430 commercial product (stated for use in air compressors, a very high o-ring count application...thus a great lubrication product for SPP air guns)!!     

Ted

[Ultramarine]

As for the valve leaking air, I recently changed ALL my O'rings with original ones from a Bristish supplier, and I have to admit things are actually getting better. BTW, a small string of PTFE tape under the valve bigger O'ring does no harm, nor gently de-stressing its spring.

 For extra insurance, added 2 wraps of PTFE to the valve stem brass threaded nut (no o-ring seal there...just tension)!

Ted, I just did the same for the same reasons, or lack of reasons ...

FWIW, was informed this AM (on another AG forum) that Pellgun Oil is actually THIS. Crosman's MSDS for Pellgun Oil is exactly the same as this commercial product!! 

I had noticed a similar information on GTA a few years ago but considering the very little quantity of Pellgun oil I use, and although it might be more expensive than gold, I'm not ready to test anything else. I tried white Lithium grease in my P17 for a while but quickly gave up : it went sticky, messy, etc. Been thinking about the famous  "Secret Sauce" but it can't be found hereabout,

In another topic -and gate,  I might ask your opinion about the Umarex Trevox that appears in your signature. Been tempted some time ago by the Crosman NP Pistol but I  read mitigated reports, and I'm fully enjoying my slightly modded Crosman 1377

Yves

[Theo98]

....I might ask your opinion about the Umarex Trevox that appears in your signature. Been tempted some time ago by the Crosman NP Pistol but I  read mitigated reports, and I'm fully enjoying my slightly modded Crosman 1377...

Yves,

Overall, you could start with my lead-in post HERE!

Out-of-the-box performance, I actually preferred my Trail NP, as it had a little less recoil, hits a little harder, is more compact and feels more solid.  However, both the Trail and Trevox took a lot of "tuning" to get their trigger precision to where I'm happy with them! FWIW, now that I have the P17's and P3, I rarely shoot those 2 break barrel pistols!! 

Ted

[Theo98]

I periodically check my air gun fps readings, so will report back if this lubrication method maintains all of the o-ring seal performances (long-term)!

With PellgunOil lubes 2 weeks ago and 250 pellets through each, both P17's and P3 still hold their FPS using RWS Hobby 7.0g WC's (P17#1=412fps, P17#2=417fps, P3=405fps). Even after sitting on the shooting table for 15 minutes charged up and ready to fire, fps dropped no more than 1fps!!   

Ted