How do we get Crosman to listen to us?

[Booger]

I wonder why should crosman spend a boatload of money making a gun only very few would actually pay for ?

the bottom line for any for-profit corporation is to make money and that is what they try to do.

if you want a better built and more expensive rifle, they are out there .. go buy one

I bet a higher percentage of American airgunners have a high end gun from Europe, than general American have a high end car (Ferrari, Lambo) from Europe.  How many American Airgunners have a 'vette or Harley (I'm actually curious), and would support an American high end air gun from the GM of air guns if such a beast were available?

.

I had to sell my Harley because of a disability. Yes I would prefer to buy an American made High end air rifle. My 2nd air rifle was UK, 3rd, 4th, & 5th were German made. There is always the TM1000 on my bucket list.

[ShakySarge]

Well I have had the EXACT SAME Gen1 Mrod, .25, self bored, self tuned, blah blah blah since December of 2012 and it still outshoots almost ALL the rifles I have put it up against. This includes .17WSM, .17HMR, .22LR, etc out to about 80 yards and straight drop a target in it's tracks every time. I was known one year as "The Possum King" because of over-population and within about 2 months had killed an insane amount of grinners, chippers, bandits, nutters, etc.

Sure, there are a LOT of air guns out there that are considered junk by some folks and it is because of "poor QC and this and that". Our fathers said it and now so do we about everything. One day I will retire and get a Cadillac or jaguar thing ya know? Well, some folks can afford them now, folks like me and thousands of others cannot!

This is where the Air Gun tuner comes in. Lay off Crosman and start doing your job again at a decent price and do it properly and for a fair price. Teach others how to do tuning. You are letting this art die and should be ashamed of yourselves. Even a ruger air hawk can be a heck of a shooter once it is tuned!!

Who am I to say that to anyone? I am SFC (R) Matthew C. Mason, good friend of Gene Curtis that banned me 3 times permanently because we argued and bickered like brothers!!! He taught me how to pass it forward. As did another great man that is forbidden to even say his name here and THAT is complete garbage. He knew each and every rifle I bought and told me I was "stoopid" for buying it but told me exactly how to fix it either with pictures or the phone or both.

Get back to that folks and stop blaming the products, FIX the products!! It is NOT expensive!!

Lot's of not so nice Infantry Love!!

Miss you ya old cranky fart!

(Matts)

[45Bravo]

This is not meant to be a slam Crosman thread.

I can say I have ZERO foreign guns.

Not that I don't want one, but I would rather buy American.

I want a hatsan Gladius, and a Bull boss.

But they are made in Turkey.

I have shot Daystate, Brocock, and FX'S.

And owned FWB'S, a BSA, and couple of Tau Bruno products, and a slew of 10 meter pistols of various manufacturers.
GREAT GUNS, but still made overseas, and you have to get some of them through state side companies that look down on us for wanting an American made gun.

I love vintage Crosman and Benjamin guns.

I love my marauder, and my Airforce guns.

I buy Crosman 22xx guns and build what I want/need to fill a niche.

There are better guns on the market, but not made here.

I just hate to see Crosman have a second flop like the Rogue.
It's downfall was the electronics.
It's too late to fix that.

The only problems I see with the Bulldog is
The the market (not enough states allow deer hunting with airguns yet)
And wrong barrel twist for the bullets being used.

Those things can be fixed..

A standard Crosman barrel is .4375 diameter.
The Bulldog being a .357 has to be thicker than that.
They put smoothbore sub diameter barrel on it to make the air bow.

They can put a .25 marauder barrel on it the same way as a test and tune setup.

They have the potential..

[limbshaker]

Well I have had the EXACT SAME Gen1 Mrod, .25, self bored, self tuned, blah blah blah since December of 2012 and it still outshoots almost ALL the rifles I have put it up against. This includes .17WSM, .17HMR, .22LR, etc out to about 80 yards and straight drop a target in it's tracks every time. I was known one year as "The Possum King" because of over-population and within about 2 months had killed an insane amount of grinners, chippers, bandits, nutters, etc.

Sure, there are a LOT of air guns out there that are considered junk by some folks and it is because of "poor QC and this and that". Our fathers said it and now so do we about everything. One day I will retire and get a Cadillac or jaguar thing ya know? Well, some folks can afford them now, folks like me and thousands of others cannot!

This is where the Air Gun tuner comes in. Lay off Crosman and start doing your job again at a decent price and do it properly and for a fair price. Teach others how to do tuning. You are letting this art die and should be ashamed of yourselves. Even a ruger air hawk can be a heck of a shooter once it is tuned!!

Who am I to say that to anyone? I am SFC (R) Matthew C. Mason, good friend of Gene Curtis that banned me 3 times permanently because we argued and bickered like brothers!!! He taught me how to pass it forward. As did another great man that is forbidden to even say his name here and THAT is complete garbage. He knew each and every rifle I bought and told me I was "stoopid" for buying it but told me exactly how to fix it either with pictures or the phone or both.

Get back to that folks and stop blaming the products, FIX the products!! It is NOT expensive!!

Lot's of not so nice Infantry Love!!

Miss you ya old cranky fart!

(Matts)

So we should keep giving our money to a company that sells us an inferior product made of imported chinese parts, snapped together and put in a box in NY? And then pay someone here in America more money to make it perform like the manufacturer claimed? And it's OUR FAULT for not fixing it?!

Say what??!!!!

[ShakySarge]

Well I have had the EXACT SAME Gen1 Mrod, .25, self bored, self tuned, blah blah blah since December of 2012 and it still outshoots almost ALL the rifles I have put it up against. This includes .17WSM, .17HMR, .22LR, etc out to about 80 yards and straight drop a target in it's tracks every time. I was known one year as "The Possum King" because of over-population and within about 2 months had killed an insane amount of grinners, chippers, bandits, nutters, etc.

Sure, there are a LOT of air guns out there that are considered junk by some folks and it is because of "poor QC and this and that". Our fathers said it and now so do we about everything. One day I will retire and get a Cadillac or jaguar thing ya know? Well, some folks can afford them now, folks like me and thousands of others cannot!

This is where the Air Gun tuner comes in. Lay off Crosman and start doing your job again at a decent price and do it properly and for a fair price. Teach others how to do tuning. You are letting this art die and should be ashamed of yourselves. Even a ruger air hawk can be a heck of a shooter once it is tuned!!

Who am I to say that to anyone? I am SFC (R) Matthew C. Mason, good friend of Gene Curtis that banned me 3 times permanently because we argued and bickered like brothers!!! He taught me how to pass it forward. As did another great man that is forbidden to even say his name here and THAT is complete garbage. He knew each and every rifle I bought and told me I was "stoopid" for buying it but told me exactly how to fix it either with pictures or the phone or both.

Get back to that folks and stop blaming the products, FIX the products!! It is NOT expensive!!

Lot's of not so nice Infantry Love!!

Miss you ya old cranky fart!

(Matts)

So we should keep giving our money to a company that sells us an inferior product made of imported chinese parts, snapped together and put in a box in NY? And then pay someone here in America more money to make it perform like the manufacturer claimed? And it's OUR FAULT for not fixing it?!

Say what??!!!!

There are ZERO corporations that have 100% stateside parts. If you think that you are a dog-gone fool. I am saying that knowledge is not being passed as it should be. This whole American made only or nothing is a myth unless you hand make everything! No one said it is YOUR FAULT. You are ALL crying to Liza that there is a hole in your bucket. All I am saying is to mend it.

Jeeze, don't get upset good sir! By the way, I do most of my tuning for free. I only charge shipping both ways and parts you need. It is really THAT cheap and simple.

 

[Killo Coonadillo]

So we should keep giving our money to a company that sells us an inferior product made of imported chinese parts, snapped together and put in a box in NY? And then pay someone here in America more money to make it perform like the manufacturer claimed? And it's OUR FAULT for not fixing it?!

Say what??!!!!

I happen to agree with this sentiment.

If I bought any pb that had sloppy working mechanics or bad bore or -------(fill in the blank), I would immediately return it, and wouldn't deal with that company anymore.

If I bought pb ammo and 10% or greater of the ammo was sub-par out of specifications, I would be sure not to ever use that name brand ever again.

Some will say but 'its made in china', so what? Can't Crosman demand quality standards to be met on their product label?
For some reason since it airgun or airgun related, its ok to let any crappy thing be let out the door.
I can't think of any other product sector that can get away with what they are getting away with.
This isn't bashing, you can bet they are making a lot of money off those myriads of b19 guns sold through all those store chains.

IMO, we should hold Crosman to a higher standard of quality on their products, regardless of where they are made or assembled.
IMO, something is wrong at the core whenever there are so many reports of quality issues.

I can't think of many products where it is almost a given that the product needs to be taken apart and fixed before it works properly, really?
Can you say that with a straight face?

[nervoustrigger]

Matt, if I'm reading you correctly, you're talking specifically about tuning.  That is, making incremental improvements to things like accuracy, shot cycle, etc.  That's perfectly reasonable in my opinion.  Even top shelf air rifles have room for improvement so it would be absurd to expect a $100 or even a $400 air rifle to arrive in a truly tuned form straight from the factory.   

What I don't find reasonable from such rifles is, for example, to have the rifling at the muzzle burned away by a piloted crowning tool.  Or a barrel whose bore is oversized for pellets of the nominal caliber.  Things like this represent systemic quality problems, and in Crosman's case they go on for months and years.

To me, those a very different from, say, a PCP that leaks straight out of the box.  That sort of thing is going to happen from time to time, and frankly no one outside of Crosman could possibly have enough data to make a case that the failure rates are reasonable or unreasonable.

In summary, I hope Crosman continues to make airguns that span a range of affordable price points...airguns that can be made into nice shooters when massaged by capable hands.  But Crosman's customers should not be expected to have to fix their gun before they can use it.

[45Bravo]

I don't know if they assemble the guns they do assemble in the states on an assembly line, or one person builds it from a bin of parts from start to finish.

If one person builds it from start to finish, their name should go in the box with that gun, if you have too many assembly issues, you know where you need some coaching.

As to the mechanical quality issues, that is something that should be addressed as soon as it's discovered, not months down the road.

Yes I agree we should hold them to a higher standard than what we do,
they OWN the American big 3 names. (Benjamin, Crosman, Sheridan.)

[ShakySarge]

So we should keep giving our money to a company that sells us an inferior product made of imported chinese parts, snapped together and put in a box in NY? And then pay someone here in America more money to make it perform like the manufacturer claimed? And it's OUR FAULT for not fixing it?!

Say what??!!!!

I happen to agree with this sentiment.

If I bought any pb that had sloppy working mechanics or bad bore or -------(fill in the blank), I would immediately return it, and wouldn't deal with that company anymore.

If I bought pb ammo and 10% or greater of the ammo was sub-par out of specifications, I would be sure not to ever use that name brand ever again.

Some will say but 'its made in china', so what? Can't Crosman demand quality standards to be met on their product label?
For some reason since it airgun or airgun related, its ok to let any crappy thing be let out the door.
I can't think of any other product sector that can get away with what they are getting away with.
This isn't bashing, you can bet they are making a lot of money off those myriads of b19 guns sold through all those store chains.

IMO, we should hold Crosman to a higher standard of quality on their products, regardless of where they are made or assembled.
IMO, something is wrong at the core whenever there are so many reports of quality issues.

I can't think of many products where it is almost a given that the product needs to be taken apart and fixed before it works properly, really?
Can you say that with a straight face?

I can and have said a lot of things as well as done a lot of things with a straight face. I am simply stating that if you want a free market, you got it! Do you really think that a thousand 1-300 dollar rifles being "fussed" about is going to change anything? Quit talking and start walking. I did and am a better man for it. So was Gene, Bob, quite a few other tuners on here know how to beat them at their own game. We actually ENJOY tinkering! I won't own anything I cannot work on or improve.

Don't even bring up Powder burners good sir. Been there done that, still at it actively and collect historical pieces as well.

[ShakySarge]

Matt, if I'm reading you correctly, you're talking specifically about tuning.  That is, making incremental improvements to things like accuracy, shot cycle, etc.  That's perfectly reasonable in my opinion.  Even top shelf air rifles have room for improvement so it would be absurd to expect a $100 or even a $400 air rifle to arrive in a truly tuned form straight from the factory.   

What I don't find reasonable from such rifles is, for example, to have the rifling at the muzzle burned away by a piloted crowning tool.  Or a barrel whose bore is oversized for pellets of the nominal caliber.  Things like this represent systemic quality problems, and in Crosman's case they go on for months and years.

To me, those a very different from, say, a PCP that leaks straight out of the box.  That sort of thing is going to happen from time to time, and frankly no one outside of Crosman could possibly have enough data to make a case that the failure rates are reasonable or unreasonable.

In summary, I hope Crosman continues to make airguns that span a range of affordable price points...airguns that can be made into nice shooters when massaged by capable hands.  But Crosman's customers should not be expected to have to fix their gun before they can use it.

Precisely!!! People read WAY too much into this man.

[Wayne52]

I haven't been into the airguns like many of you have so I don't know a lot of about the European air guns except from what everyone says.  I've owned Crosmans since I was a kid and they're far beyond what they were then because of the competion out there.  As far as their 22XX line is concerned most all the parts are manufactured here but from what I hear the steel they use now is from China(I could be wrong too), look at the US industry today, our steel mills have all but disappeared.  I'm very happy with my Disco and my 22xx's, when I order parts from Crosman, they sell them to me if they're in stock, if not they tell me when they'll probably have them.  A good example is their 18" .22 barrel for the 22xx (and more) line, I tried ordering one about a month and a half ago, they said they were out and they sell them as fast as they make them(someone likes them), well I called back 3 weeks later and they had them in stock again so I ordered one, along with some other parts and I must say their service is excellent and expedient.  The demand for airguns here in the U.S. isn't the same as the demand in the U.K. because of the simple fact we can still buy powder burners for hunting and when I'm out hunting I've yet to see another airgunner hunting since I've started back up hunting this year.  The folks that have seen were very curious but really didn't want a one shot so I'm sure they'll stick with their guns instead.

P.S. I'll continue using my modified 2240, I do have a nice Ruger 10-22 however my 2240 the way it is with the TKO is soooo nice and quiet, accurate and very easy to carry let alone the price of .22lr these days.  We are fortunate here in Michigan to be able to hunt with big bore airguns and maybe some day I'll get one but for now I'll stick with hunting small game.

[Rob M]

i think we are all grossly underestimating the bulldog sales..I see limitless youtube vids and reviews on various sites from guys that are more or less first time adult airgun owners..And they know their bread and butter, much easier to let 100 1377s sell themselves every day at Walmart than try to sell one 2000 dollar euro style gun.When I called for a 392 pump cup, they had 15,000 in stock lol

[Killo Coonadillo]

I can and have said a lot of things as well as done a lot of things with a straight face. I am simply stating that if you want a free market, you got it! Do you really think that a thousand 1-300 dollar rifles being "fussed" about is going to change anything? Quit talking and start walking. I did and am a better man for it. So was Gene, Bob, quite a few other tuners on here know how to beat them at their own game. We actually ENJOY tinkering! I won't own anything I cannot work on or improve.

Don't even bring up Powder burners good sir. Been there done that, still at it actively and collect historical pieces as well.

Sorry Sarge but my reply wasn't directed toward you specifically, if you took it that way, it was not meant.
I understand your meaning but it still misses the point.

For instance, if I bought a tv and then I wasn't able to repair it...(it being new) and suppose the power supply was sub-par, causing problems.
By that logic, I should be able to fix the power supply...that doesn't make common sense.

Yes, I understand airgunners in general like to tinker, I get that but there is something wrong when a product is up for sale and there are known problems that date back to the very beginning.
I don't have to go into detail about the known problems as they are well known for a long time.

Also, not everyone is qualified or have the desire to take their new product apart to see what is wrong or even have the knowledge to fix it.
They may not want to procure parts, lube or other materials necessary to fix it.

I am very sure none of us wants to buy a product (especially not related to airguns) and immediately have to take it apart and see if it can be brought up to nominal operating parameters.

The idea that if a casual user wants to get into airgunning and then finds out that his/her new air rifle has problems that causes substandard operation is then required to be able to fix it...or find someone to work on it is really a very unhealthy attitude for this industry as a whole.

Then some will object (I suppose) and say well it needs to be sent back to crosman to fix it.
I am sure crosman is able but crosman also know the statistics...that only a small percentage of consumers will actually go to the trouble to sent in for repairs....which takes time....which the user is out of their new bought rifle for a delay before they are able to use it again.

The more likely outcome for this casual user is if it was bought at a chain store, he will simply take it back for a money refund.
No doubt some will try other models but there will be some of them that will simply decide that airguns are a bad idea and will forget about them.

So the point of this which I am sure most will understand right away is, Crosman has quality problems that can/ could be dealt with.
Now whether they do anything about it is up to them.
From past history, it appears they aren't overly-concerned about their own products as pertaining to their quality.

Also for the record, I have no problem understanding that some may want to tweak or hire a tuner to get the most out of their airgun....this wasn't a part of the equation.

[StevenG]

TV power supplies are usually a single FRU. However quite often a single capacitor is what fails. I have repaired many LCD TVs for just that issue. Great way to get a free tv.

Now for a new one, well I think the GTA filter would say it "is not worthy".


Continuing with TVs, none of them ship out of the box with a decent color setup. NONE! They have the ultra bright over saturated store mode, and a home mode setup to conserve power. Every TV sold in every store has to be color calibrated in home if you want the best performance.

My point is these complaints are hardly limited to airguns. If you think they are limited to crosman learn about the sintered tx200 cocking shoe.

[Geoff]

So we should keep giving our money to a company that sells us an inferior product made of imported chinese parts, snapped together and put in a box in NY? And then pay someone here in America more money to make it perform like the manufacturer claimed? And it's OUR FAULT for not fixing it?!

Say what??!!!!

No, you buy some someone else instead of buying from a company you feel offers inferior products.   Did you buy a  YUGO when they were offered ?  I would guess not.   

[ShakySarge]

I can and have said a lot of things as well as done a lot of things with a straight face. I am simply stating that if you want a free market, you got it! Do you really think that a thousand 1-300 dollar rifles being "fussed" about is going to change anything? Quit talking and start walking. I did and am a better man for it. So was Gene, Bob, quite a few other tuners on here know how to beat them at their own game. We actually ENJOY tinkering! I won't own anything I cannot work on or improve.

Don't even bring up Powder burners good sir. Been there done that, still at it actively and collect historical pieces as well.

Sorry Sarge but my reply wasn't directed toward you specifically, if you took it that way, it was not meant.
I understand your meaning but it still misses the point.

For instance, if I bought a tv and then I wasn't able to repair it...(it being new) and suppose the power supply was sub-par, causing problems.
By that logic, I should be able to fix the power supply...that doesn't make common sense.

Yes, I understand airgunners in general like to tinker, I get that but there is something wrong when a product is up for sale and there are known problems that date back to the very beginning.
I don't have to go into detail about the known problems as they are well known for a long time.

Also, not everyone is qualified or have the desire to take their new product apart to see what is wrong or even have the knowledge to fix it.
They may not want to procure parts, lube or other materials necessary to fix it.

I am very sure none of us wants to buy a product (especially not related to airguns) and immediately have to take it apart and see if it can be brought up to nominal operating parameters.

The idea that if a casual user wants to get into airgunning and then finds out that his/her new air rifle has problems that causes substandard operation is then required to be able to fix it...or find someone to work on it is really a very unhealthy attitude for this industry as a whole.

Then some will object (I suppose) and say well it needs to be sent back to crosman to fix it.
I am sure crosman is able but crosman also know the statistics...that only a small percentage of consumers will actually go to the trouble to sent in for repairs....which takes time....which the user is out of their new bought rifle for a delay before they are able to use it again.

The more likely outcome for this casual user is if it was bought at a chain store, he will simply take it back for a money refund.
No doubt some will try other models but there will be some of them that will simply decide that airguns are a bad idea and will forget about them.

So the point of this which I am sure most will understand right away is, Crosman has quality problems that can/ could be dealt with.
Now whether they do anything about it is up to them.
From past history, it appears they aren't overly-concerned about their own products as pertaining to their quality.

Also for the record, I have no problem understanding that some may want to tweak or hire a tuner to get the most out of their airgun....this wasn't a part of the equation.

Fair enough and I took no offense.Almost EVERY major company out there has a massive amount of negative reviews. Just the way of a free market system. Sometimes you just have to look that bear right back in the eyes and kick him in the jewels. (fix it ya know)

[ShakySarge]

So we should keep giving our money to a company that sells us an inferior product made of imported chinese parts, snapped together and put in a box in NY? And then pay someone here in America more money to make it perform like the manufacturer claimed? And it's OUR FAULT for not fixing it?!

Say what??!!!!

GIVE THAT GENTLEMEN A SIGN GOOD SIR!!! Only kidding, only kidding!!!

No, you buy some someone else instead of buying from a company you feel offers inferior products.   Did you buy a  YUGO when they were offered ?  I would guess not.

[mobilehomer]

I have a friend that was a middle school principal. One day an irate parent came into his office complaining very loudly. His response - "I can't hear a word you're saying! Somebody's yelling at me!" You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. A reasonable, informative, intelligent conversation with them will yield better results. Crosman DOES check the forum, Chip (aka Doubletough) who has since left Crosman, is a member here as are other Crosman employees,and on others.  Here is the response to a problem, page three, I think.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=115622.0

[PelletsForPests]

Made in America... Manufactured in America... Whatever. If Crosman is going to use patriotism as part of its marketing, they should make products that we can all be proud of.

To argue for Crosman, I'll add that if their guns weren't worth the value, the market (big businesses and average buyers) would leave them in the dust for whatever manufacturer was mass producing safe, cheap guns better.

All in all, I'm a satisfied customer, certainly for the price, so I really dont see any reason to get too outraged by their occasional failures. They will let you return unmodified lemons for up to a year right?

Not trying to stir the pot, just trying to draw a fair conclusion.

[bubba zanetti]

If I want to buy a quality Crosman product. I have found the models from 1980 and backwards usually fit the bill. Can find multiple models on Gunbroker to be had at reasonable prices. All my old Crosmans perform exactly how I want and are built very, very well.

Just a suggestion.

BZ