Got my new Hatsan 125TH .25 cal

[SteveP-52]

+1 on the ARH moly paste, should have thought of that when I mentioned the seal. I got all my stuff from them: seals, moly, tar,buttons and had everything in NY in 4 days so if you don't mind waiting a few days to get better quality parts, ARH would be the place to go.

[JoeV]

I just got off the phone with PA and tried to get the new seal for free...no such luck. I'll pick it up Friday at noon at a cost of $10.60 with 10% discount and tax. Reading the description from the link for the moly paste, it says that Hatsan installs undersized seals. No surprise, since they are installing the pistons into un-tuned guns. I did a lot of debur with fine files, and all edges are now smooth for the new seal.

The seal from PA is the same as the one from ARH.

Thanks for the link!

[Methuselah]

The seal from PA is the same as the one from ARH.

... or it just looks the same.

Steve (scp52) suggested in another thread to chamfer the inside side of the transfer port slightly to make sure it is burr free, and I've also seen suggestions saying put the seal in (very) hot water a minute or two to make it easier to install.

Good luck, looking forward to seeing it shooting and your posting the results 

[Gut2Fish]

Looking at your numbers in first post again it makes me wonder what Hatsan used to come up with 750fps. That # never seemed right to me as my gun in .22 pushes 875fps with 18.1 grain. Is the .25 H&N 19.9 grain a new pellet? Maybe they used the 24 grain H&N for reported power. I would assume with a new seal and lube it would push the 19.9 grain near 850 fps no problem. That makes for a nice trajectory in .25 cal if that pellet is accurate at distance.

[JoeV]

Since I can't get the new seal until Friday, I put the entire gun back together to get a feel for doing so. The trigger group was interesting to get together, and I ended up making a short pin on my lathe so I could drop in the assembly, then use the long pin to push it through. Got that tip from a Mike Ellingsworth YouTube video on the Quatro trigger. I love the detail this guy puts into his videos, taking time to explain WHY something needs to be done. Learned a lot, and looking forward to getting the new piston seal.

[JoeV]

Looking at your numbers in first post again it makes me wonder what Hatsan used to come up with 750fps. That # never seemed right to me as my gun in .22 pushes 875fps with 18.1 grain. Is the .25 H&N 19.9 grain a new pellet? Maybe they used the 24 grain H&N for reported power. I would assume with a new seal and lube it would push the 19.9 grain near 850 fps no problem. That makes for a nice trajectory in .25 cal if that pellet is accurate at distance.

The part that frosts my tomatoes is that the seal is so obviously defective that it should have been tossed in the trash in Izmir. QC is something I have become accustomed to being disappointed from most manufacturer. If I shortcut someone in my business, that customer will tell at least ten people before it fizzles out, and that equates to lost business. That's something that big companies fail to embrace in their business philosophies. For them it's a numbers game, and it really doesn't bother them. Hatsan USA has that cocky attitude, presuming the end user is an idiot (I'm a mechanical. Engineer by education, but own a small renovation/handyman business to keep me busy since I retired) I've been around the block with them on Optima scopes. I finally just gave up on them and just order a real airgun scope when I get a new gun.

Enough for the rant.

[Gut2Fish]

The thing is if your selling a product that will require the user to deburr and work on the gun to get it's potential of power and longevity you should be more accepting of people opening and working on their guns. It's a "no no" in lawyer speak.

For the price point of Hatsans you get a heck of of gun.

[Bryan Heimann]

I agree the piston seal should not look like that, but it is pretty typical.  Not just with Hatsan, but several brands of airguns in a bargain priced rifle.  I'd say your numbers are not bad considering, but they will improve immensely after the proper de-bur you did and a fresh piston seal and proper lube.  I would also shim the breech seal with a few loops of dental floss.  I have had guns pass the tissue test, with a decent spread and accuracy, still shoot harder after ahimming the breech seal.  It can't hurt.

[JoeV]

I agree the piston seal should not look like that, but it is pretty typical.  Not just with Hatsan, but several brands of airguns in a bargain priced rifle.  I'd say your numbers are not bad considering, but they will improve immensely after the proper de-bur you did and a fresh piston seal and proper lube.  I would also shim the breech seal with a few loops of dental floss.  I have had guns pass the tissue test, with a decent spread and accuracy, still shoot harder after ahimming the breech seal.  It can't hurt.

I agree. If you've seen my posts in the Crosman/Benjamin gate you'll see I've been through my share of returns with my Trail NP and NP2 guns. All with degenerating velocity over time. My three Hatsan 95 Vortex rifles are the exceptions, wherein they have improved over time. That's what's led me to get the 125TH.

On the plus side, this seal problem has encouraged me to get into maintenance/tuning of my Airguns. With today's tear down, problem identification and reassembly, I've greatly increased my confidence to persue getting into the works of my other guns.

Yes, this is truly a slippery slope indeed! 

[JoeV]

Looking at your numbers in first post again it makes me wonder what Hatsan used to come up with 750fps. That # never seemed right to me as my gun in .22 pushes 875fps with 18.1 grain. Is the .25 H&N 19.9 grain a new pellet? Maybe they used the 24 grain H&N for reported power. I would assume with a new seal and lube it would push the 19.9 grain near 850 fps no problem. That makes for a nice trajectory in .25 cal if that pellet is accurate at distance.

Sorry to not address your question on the 19.91 pellet. That is the H&N Field Target Trophy pellet that is available in three skirt diameters. I've been using it on my 95 Vortex .25 cal,since I got it in August '15. Got a few tree rats at 35 yards+. Very accurate. But the most accurate in my .25 Vortex is the H&N Baracuda 31.02 gr. Really holds its energy at distance and deadly accurate, with a balistic coefficient of .0420 compared to the FTT which has a .0240 balistic coefficient.

[Methuselah]

Looking at your numbers in first post again it makes me wonder what Hatsan used to come up with 750fps. That # never seemed right to me as my gun in .22 pushes 875fps with 18.1 grain. Is the .25 H&N 19.9 grain a new pellet? Maybe they used the 24 grain H&N for reported power. I would assume with a new seal and lube it would push the 19.9 grain near 850 fps no problem. That makes for a nice trajectory in .25 cal if that pellet is accurate at distance.

The part that frosts my tomatoes is that the seal is so obviously defective that it should have been tossed in the trash in Izmir. QC is something I have become accustomed to being disappointed from most manufacturer. If I shortcut someone in my business, that customer will tell at least ten people before it fizzles out, and that equates to lost business. That's something that big companies fail to embrace in their business philosophies. For them it's a numbers game, and it really doesn't bother them. Hatsan USA has that cocky attitude, presuming the end user is an idiot (I'm a mechanical. Engineer by education, but own a small renovation/handyman business to keep me busy since I retired) I've been around the block with them on Optima scopes. I finally just gave up on them and just order a real airgun scope when I get a new gun.

Enough for the rant.

You're entitled to rant, but I doubt that seal was bad when they installed it.  Hatsan seems to always find a way to get cuttings or shavings into the compression tube on the 125's, and sometimes the 95's.  Also could have a burr at the transfer port at the end of the compression chamber...

[JoeV]

Looking at your numbers in first post again it makes me wonder what Hatsan used to come up with 750fps. That # never seemed right to me as my gun in .22 pushes 875fps with 18.1 grain. Is the .25 H&N 19.9 grain a new pellet? Maybe they used the 24 grain H&N for reported power. I would assume with a new seal and lube it would push the 19.9 grain near 850 fps no problem. That makes for a nice trajectory in .25 cal if that pellet is accurate at distance.

The part that frosts my tomatoes is that the seal is so obviously defective that it should have been tossed in the trash in Izmir. QC is something I have become accustomed to being disappointed from most manufacturer. If I shortcut someone in my business, that customer will tell at least ten people before it fizzles out, and that equates to lost business. That's something that big companies fail to embrace in their business philosophies. For them it's a numbers game, and it really doesn't bother them. Hatsan USA has that cocky attitude, presuming the end user is an idiot (I'm a mechanical. Engineer by education, but own a small renovation/handyman business to keep me busy since I retired) I've been around the block with them on Optima scopes. I finally just gave up on them and just order a real airgun scope when I get a new gun.

Enough for the rant.

You're entitled to rant, but I doubt that seal was bad when they installed it.  Hatsan seems to always find a way to get cuttings or shavings into the compression tube on the 125's, and sometimes the 95's.  Also could have a burr at the transfer port at the end of the compression chamber...

Look closely at the image and you'll see it's not damage from a burr, but is a molding defect. All of,the edges ar smooth, not ragged from being torn. I've seen defects like this in injection molding machines when insufficient material is injected into the mold (short shot). The tube is actually in pristine condition, and with the filing and crocus cloth polishing of edges, the new seal should have no problems. Friday will tell.

[Airgun.Sniper]

 Dont you hate waiting for anything....some thing you dont mind waiting for like...nevre mind...

 Jay

[Methuselah]

Look closely at the image and you'll see it's not damage from a burr, but is a molding defect. All of,the edges ar smooth, not ragged from being torn. I've seen defects like this in injection molding machines when insufficient material is injected into the mold (short shot). The tube is actually in pristine condition, and with the filing and crocus cloth polishing of edges, the new seal should have no problems. Friday will tell.

Pic looks a lot like how mine failed, as if during cocking stroke it ran into something from behind that busted it through, then around it melted on subsequent shooting.  Guess if you have a better look you know better than I did - I stand corrected.

I'm working through issues with same gun myself, maybe an out of round receiver (though I'm positive shavings were responsible for the damaged seal on mine) ... hope you get her shooting smoothly

You did a better job on the spring compressor than I did!



Edit:  Just for the sake of archived information folks use to decide about purchasing ... inside measurements were sloppy using telescoping (snap) gages and cheapo calipers, looks a lot better with an outside 1-2" micrometer.  Out of round where seal matters is under .001", piston ~ 3/1000'ths (gets removed by buttoning), and the buttons have about 7/1000'ths variance end-to-end that honing may whittle down a little and maybe where the buttons ride it could be a little +/-.  I'm no expert but that doesn't seem so bad to me.

[SteveP-52]

The seal from PA is the same as the one from ARH.

... or it just looks the same.

Steve (scp52) suggested in another thread to chamfer the inside side of the transfer port slightly to make sure it is burr free, and I've also seen suggestions saying put the seal in (very) hot water a minute or two to make it easier to install.

Good luck, looking forward to seeing it shooting and your posting the results 

Chamfering the transfer port is something Jeff aka Privateer suggested I do when I tuned mine. As far as the new seal going on, I never used hot water, just a little moly on the end of the piston, set the seal flat on the bench and angled the end of the piston into it and pushed forward until the seal seated itself. It actually popped on fairly easy.

[Inspector3711]

Yeah that looks like short shot to me too.  I'm a 30 year Inspector  (aerospace).  I can't stand it when I see things like this.  I had a brand new remington 700 a few years ago.  Before I took it out the first time, I cycled the bolt a few times.  Flipped the safety off to do a dry fire, and click goes the firing pin.  Turns out the trigger group was full of shavings. 

I tried it several more times with the same result.

 Could have caused a fatality in the wrong hands.

They probably don't have much of a quality program at most of these airgun companies.  Too costly I suppose.  The emphasis is likely on shipping product and trusting the people doing the work to catch the problems.  The workers are probably too busy to worry about it, or don't get paid enough to care.

This is one reason why I worried about buying a hatsan.  My 125 vortex  sniper will be here friday.  I hope I don't have similar issues.  I do most of my own gunsmithing so I have no doubt I can work on it, but a new rifle shouldn't have problems.

[sactargetshooter]

Mine (a .25 Vortex) is arriving on Friday, as well. Interesting I'll be receiving the 125 after I pick up a Bersa Thunder from a shop!

Fingers crossed that the 125 won't be major issues for the first 1000 shots or so. Then, again, my AT-P2 had a bad crown (polygonal), a missing o-ring in the airtube (causing a slow leak) and a leaky fill port. Not big problems, but a new gun should not have them!

I have already watched plenty of videos on how to take the 125 apart and have some plans to make my own spring compressor. Just hoping that I won't need to do that until the summer.

[Diced1]

Joe, you made me actually sign up instead of just lurking   . Sorry to see the piston seal issue, that's a bummer on a new gun.  I just got a 125 synthetic springer on Monday in .25. My numbers are not too far off of yours. I cleaned the bbl with ballistol, pushed a pellet through it to check the rifling (will likely hand lap with JB paste over the weekend) and put about 30 shots across the chrony. I don't have my sheet but the Benjamin domes were high 600s, JSB Exacts around 715ish, and the H&N FTTs around 790-805. This was the first 30 shots just to get a bench mark of new vs broke in. I already ordered a .22 model in Camo  just because I guess I should have two in case one breaks down the road I'll have a parts gun. I have new seals in hand from pyramid and will likely order a few vortek springs. I don't know if I will open either of them until I'm sure I don't need to return them, but I'm sure they will get opened after the warranty at the latest.

Overall I'm kind of impressed based on my non-invasive inspection. I have a numbers of Dianna springers and have had  issues with those as well. A .22 48 that imploded under 1000 shots, spring break early on on .17 34, and a 34p in .22 that I picked up a few weeks ago had to get exchanged because the barrel would go sideways when cocking and scrape the forend  (got two of those matching setups for when my toddlers get older) I guess they can all have issues. One thing that you might want to consider though, at least something I have thought about and makes me want to order some new springs is (Mike's?) video of disassembly stating that many of the 125/135s they can have different spring lengths. I think that might account for some of the velocity differences as well. Obviously that seal wasn't helping anything. Good luck, will be following along. Hope you include some detail on your project. There just isn't a whole lot of detailed tuning data that I have seen yet for the 125 variants. Nice work on that compressor. I just have a large bar clamp, which works fine on model .34s, but think I will build a compressor similar to your before I try to open up a Hatsan. Really curious on the disable stuff, from the vids I have seen that trigger looks like a complicated deal.

Looking forward to seeing the velocity difference with the new seals and a good once over.

[Privateer]

Here's why I deburr the transfer port.
The arrow points to impacts from burr at the port.

[Methuselah]

Joe, you made me actually sign up instead of just lurking   . Sorry to see the piston seal issue, that's a bummer on a new gun.  I just got a 125 synthetic springer on Monday in .25. My numbers are not too far off of yours. I cleaned the bbl with ballistol, pushed a pellet through it to check the rifling (will likely hand lap with JB paste over the weekend) and put about 30 shots across the chrony. I don't have my sheet but the Benjamin domes were high 600s, JSB Exacts around 715ish, and the H&N FTTs around 790-805. This was the first 30 shots

...

If those were in the order listed maybe it's the seal settling in or there was sparse lube and it is getting distributed?  I'd try again with the  Benjamin domes, if you still get 600's I'd suspect you got a oversized bore (and send it back for a replacement).  You can push a pellet through to check also...