GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: CarsonRatSniper on October 15, 2014, 03:34:26 PM
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The top ends will be the same - one piece Picatinney railed breech that CF sleeved 9/16" OD barrels thread into with a 1/2x20 threaded muzzle.
Top quality screw on 1.5" OD x 8" long LDC (add on option) - Run your gun 'Loud & Proud' or 'Whisper Quiet'.
Breech will also have a pressure tube band that screws directly into the breech from the bottom, located behind the pressure gauge and also accept a 2nd stock screw so the action is held in place to the stock by 2 screws instead of 1.
Both will be side cockers - separate loading & cocking functions.
Both will have Mrod trigger groups.
Both will have an RVA and accept .360" OD hammer springs up to 2" long.
Both will have interchangeable .22 & .25 caliber barrels/bolts as an option (if purchased at the time of ordering - .250" barrel will be my 1:22" twist and the .22 barrel will be Bob's .217" x 1:16 Twist barrel - both hammer forged TJ barrels from Mike Sayers ).
The PCP barrel will be free floated and the Pumper will have an o ringed (semi float) barrel band at the end of the tube for barrel support during pumping.
The difference is in the powerplants.
The Pumper will be based on Bobs Millennium Pumper and will have a Foster fill port in the left side of the rifle in the gauge port adapter for tethering to a remote line or initially filling via hand pump.
There will be a small reservoir between the check valve and the valve face so the gun can be tuned for 1 or 2 follow up shots.
The PCP will either be bottle fed and regulated with about a 240cc air volume or have a standard Disco pressure tube.
These are literally on the drawing board and prototypes will be built in the next few weeks...I need to know where the most interest is.
Personally I'm leaning towards the Pumper as there just aren't any ultra high quality ones available (especially with a thread on LDC option), easy caliber changes and I like the fact you don't need any support equipment.
It also gives the most options as far as how you'd like to hunt with the rifle.
I have a machinist willing and able to produce all of the above ;)
Thanks for your input!
Mike
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I picked the pumper. :D Do not have to haul around pcp fill gear and is cheaper. ;)
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What power would the pumper be able to get ?
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What power would the pumper be able to get ?
I do not know. I will look and see if I can find something.
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Here is the thread on my Millenium Pumper.... http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39328. (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39328.)
and here are the final tunes in .25 cal....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Millenium%20Pumper/MilleniumPumper1800Strings.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Millenium%20Pumper/MilleniumPumper1800Strings.jpg.html)
With Kings that is one shot at 51 FPE, two shots at 45+ FPE, or three shots at 40 FPE, all with a backup.... Only a change in the preload required between the tunes....
Bob
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Millennium Pumper !
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Wow Bob...this is a landslide right out of the gate for your Millennium Pumper!
;D
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(yeah, and I voted for all of the above).... *LOL*.... but actually don't care about the "stock" arrangement, but the bottle gun has a place, and parts are always welcome.... I'd love to see you guys build my Millenium Pumper, that is why it is designed to be simple and have very few custom parts needed....
Bob
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HAHAHA! ::)
My .25 Challenger Double Tube was going to be a Reverse Pumping Millennium with around 160+ cc's of air volume - the 22" long lower pressure tube was going to house the pump assembly and check valve...I just couldn't do it when she hit 70 ft lbs.
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Would be pleased to see the pumper...no competition, would be the only real MSP choice in .25...so I'd like to see that as an offering. Would appreciate the low end more than the high end, but being a MSP, you can have both.
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The top ends will be the same - one piece Picatinney railed breech that CF sleeved 9/16" OD barrels thread into with a 1/2x20 threaded muzzle.
Top quality screw on 1.5" OD x 8" long LDC (add on option) - Run your gun 'Loud & Proud' or 'Whisper Quiet'.
Breech will also have a pressure tube band that screws directly into the breech from the bottom, located behind the pressure gauge and also accept a 2nd stock screw so the action is held in place to the stock by 2 screws instead of 1.
Both will be side cockers - separate loading & cocking functions.
Both will have Mrod trigger groups.
Both will have an RVA and accept .360" OD hammer springs up to 2" long.
Both will have interchangeable .22 & .25 caliber barrels/bolts as an option (if purchased at the time of ordering - .250" barrel will be my 1:22" twist and the .22 barrel will be Bob's .217" x 1:16 Twist barrel - both hammer forged TJ barrels from Mike Sayers ).
The PCP barrel will be free floated and the Pumper will have an o ringed (semi float) barrel band at the end of the tube for barrel support during pumping.
The difference is in the powerplants.
The Pumper will be based on Bobs Millennium Pumper and will have a Foster fill port in the left side of the rifle in the gauge port adapter for tethering to a remote line or initially filling via hand pump.
There will be a small reservoir between the check valve and the valve face so the gun can be tuned for 1 or 2 follow up shots.
The PCP will either be bottle fed and regulated with about a 240cc air volume or have a standard Disco pressure tube.
These are literally on the drawing board and prototypes will be built in the next few weeks...I need to know where the most interest is.
Personally I'm leaning towards the Pumper as there just aren't any ultra high quality ones available (especially with a thread on LDC option), easy caliber changes and I like the fact you don't need any support equipment.
It also gives the most options as far as how you'd like to hunt with the rifle.
I have a machinist willing and able to produce all of the above ;)
Thanks for your input!
Mike
About how much will the pumper cost?
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I'd go for the pumper. If you can achieve the same numbers bob did you can count me in.
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I honestly have no idea...I'm sitting down with Jim tomorrow morning to hammer out machining time for him and direct material costs.
I can tell you flat out I'm getting $50 to assemble and tune the guns...I can figure materials pretty easily...the only variable is Jim's machine time per gun.
I'm hoping to be around $700 with 1 barrel and no LDC - that is a *COMPLETE* rough guess, so don't hold me to that!
All parts except for a few are modified Crosman factory parts to keep overall build time down - its easier to buy inexpensive parts from Crosman and tweak them to my specs than it is to produce them from scratch.
Keep in mind a Steroided 392 with a Williams peep sight set me back $400 and is nowhere NEAR what this rifle will be.
I promise the price will be as fair as possible to everybody involved.
I will have a price once the first 2 are built in a couple of weeks.
Once that is announced I will take deposits on pre orders for the first official run of guns...the more Jim can machine at one time the easier it is overall and will help final costs...the set up and first ones are always the slowest. I'm hoping that part is hammered out on the prototype builds.
Bobs numbers will be there...he is most certainly involved with these guns - just not directly.
;)
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I honestly have no idea...I'm sitting down with Jim tomorrow morning to hammer out machining time for him and direct material costs.
I can tell you flat out I'm getting $50 to assemble and tune the guns...I can figure materials pretty easily...the only variable is Jim's machine time per gun.
I'm hoping to be around $700 with 1 barrel and no LDC - that is a *COMPLETE* rough guess, so don't hold me to that!
All parts except for a few are modified Crosman factory parts to keep overall build time down - its easier to buy inexpensive parts from Crosman and tweak them to my specs than it is to produce them from scratch.
Keep in mind a Steroided 392 with a Williams peep sight set me back $400 and is nowhere NEAR what this rifle will be.
I promise the price will be as fair as possible to everybody involved.
I will have a price once the first 2 are built in a couple of weeks.
Once that is announced I will take deposits on pre orders for the first official run of guns...the more Jim can machine at one time the easier it is overall and will help final costs...the set up and first ones are always the slowest. I'm hoping that part is hammered out on the prototype builds.
Bobs numbers will be there...he is most certainly involved with these guns - just not directly.
;)
$700 :o Oh well :( I was hoping for an affordable (around $150) pumper. I guess I will have to stick to my .25 patriot.
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Uh...the breech alone is $125 and a 24" TJ barrel *blank* (unprepped/unmachined) is $130 after shipping to me...that's $255 and the CF sleeve hasn't even begun yet not to mention the *rest* of the gun ???
There's already $150 pumpers...Benjamin's 392 and the Webley.
Maybe nobody wants a top shelf pumper because they just go PCP.
However, I see where the cost comes in at completely fair - the next available option is an $1800 Independence.
:o
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I honestly have no idea...I'm sitting down with Jim tomorrow morning to hammer out machining time for him and direct material costs.
I can tell you flat out I'm getting $50 to assemble and tune the guns...I can figure materials pretty easily...the only variable is Jim's machine time per gun.
I'm hoping to be around $700 with 1 barrel and no LDC - that is a *COMPLETE* rough guess, so don't hold me to that!
All parts except for a few are modified Crosman factory parts to keep overall build time down - its easier to buy inexpensive parts from Crosman and tweak them to my specs than it is to produce them from scratch.
Keep in mind a Steroided 392 with a Williams peep sight set me back $400 and is nowhere NEAR what this rifle will be.
I promise the price will be as fair as possible to everybody involved.
I will have a price once the first 2 are built in a couple of weeks.
Once that is announced I will take deposits on pre orders for the first official run of guns...the more Jim can machine at one time the easier it is overall and will help final costs...the set up and first ones are always the slowest. I'm hoping that part is hammered out on the prototype builds.
Bobs numbers will be there...he is most certainly involved with these guns - just not directly.
;)
$700 :o Oh well :( I was hoping for an affordable (around $150) pumper. I guess I will have to stick to my .25 patriot.
:o Go buy a 392 or something. $150 isn't much for a good gun. Judging by the materials used, machine time and specs of the gun, $700 sounds good and this will be the first ever quality pumper ;D
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I honestly have no idea...I'm sitting down with Jim tomorrow morning to hammer out machining time for him and direct material costs.
I can tell you flat out I'm getting $50 to assemble and tune the guns...I can figure materials pretty easily...the only variable is Jim's machine time per gun.
I'm hoping to be around $700 with 1 barrel and no LDC - that is a *COMPLETE* rough guess, so don't hold me to that!
All parts except for a few are modified Crosman factory parts to keep overall build time down - its easier to buy inexpensive parts from Crosman and tweak them to my specs than it is to produce them from scratch.
Keep in mind a Steroided 392 with a Williams peep sight set me back $400 and is nowhere NEAR what this rifle will be.
I promise the price will be as fair as possible to everybody involved.
I will have a price once the first 2 are built in a couple of weeks.
Once that is announced I will take deposits on pre orders for the first official run of guns...the more Jim can machine at one time the easier it is overall and will help final costs...the set up and first ones are always the slowest. I'm hoping that part is hammered out on the prototype builds.
Bobs numbers will be there...he is most certainly involved with these guns - just not directly.
;)
$700 :o Oh well :( I was hoping for an affordable (around $150) pumper. I guess I will have to stick to my .25 patriot.
:o Go buy a 392 or something. $150 isn't much for a good gun. Judging by the materials used, machine time and specs of the gun, $700 sounds good and this will be the first ever quality pumper ;D
I did not think of that.
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Wow! I'm really looking forward to seeing what you have up
your sleeve 8) 8) I think it would be awesome if you could
put the Millennium Pumper into production and while I agree
$700 is fair I wonder if there is a way to make a economy model for
more like $350-500?(maybe a bare action if that would lower costs?)
what stock are you going to use?looking forward to see how
this progresses 8)
Bob: how many pumps to get those results?
Joseph
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We are just using a modified factory Disco stock to keep cost & weight down...the entire lower half of the rifle could certainly be purchased separately and you could bolt your own top end on it.
I will have full details and prices on options soon.
*edit* Some points I'd like to add about our top end - the only way you're going to even come close to something like it is on a RAW or Daystate...ours might even beat THEM out!
The .25 barrel is 9/16" OD with bushings then 1/16" walled CF sleeved for an OD of .750".
The .22 barrel is 1/2" OD - are you ready for this? Bushings added, sleeved in .625" OD 6061 T6 aluminum which will then also be sleeved in 1/16" walled CF for a .750" OD!!!
That's not where it ends...the TP area of the barrel will be turned to about .550" OD, then 1.5" of 9/16" threading to secure it to the breech - the breech will have a 1" deep recess @ .7505" that the barrels seats into and seats in tension against - there will be one 8-32 grub screw in the too of the breech just to make sure it doesn't shoot loose from the breech.
Also - the steel barrel band that directly fastens the pressure tube to the breech AND adds a second action screw for the stock.
I challenge any other air gun top end anywhere to say they are made this stout with this stiff if a barrel...and were going to try and hit a base price if $700.
C'mon Guys...*WHERE* is there an AG made to this kind of spec?
:o ;D 8)
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I say pumper. It would be the ultimate teotwawki survival rifle.
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All the data on pumping and refilling is in the thread I linked to above.... 80 pumps to fill from empty to 1800 psi (or use a stirrup pump or tank) and then about 11-18 pumps per shot to refill, depending of power level selected.... That's for the .25 cal, the .22 cal would be much fewer pumps per shot....
Bob
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Remember that pumping is just ONE option.
With the Foster fill nipple you can attach a remote line to an 1800 psi regged JDS Airman bottle (I hunt like that with my 30 ft lb 2260) or even use CO2 during the summer.
My point is that your not bound to just pumping to shoot the rifle and enjoy it.
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Yep, it's as much a PCP with an onboard pump as a pumper that retains air for an extra shot or two with improved efficiency.... When you are talking about price, consider that in addition to all the parts in a Disco you need a pump arm, linkage, piston, and a check valve.... Then consider that you will be getting an upgraded breech and a much higher quality barrel than what Crosman use.... Even at twice the price of a Disco, it will be less than half the price of an FX Indy....
Besides, you can't take it with you.... the money, that is.... A Millenium Pumper you can, and leave the tank behind if you want to.... *grin*.... When I designed and built mine I had two goals.... One was to show what could be done starting from a Disco and adding an extended billet pump linkage from Mac1, plus a few custom parts.... The other was to hopefully prompt Crosman, or somebody else, to build some as I think they filled a market niche.... small, but there.... I wish Mike and Jim well on their venture and look forward to seeing this dream become reality....
Bob
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If you can get a Pumper at 50+ FPE than it would be really interesting
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Bobs testing was done with JSB Kings and hit 51 ft lbs...I will tether to my 1800 psi regged JDS 13ci bottle and see what she does with some of my 37's.
Also the .217" barrel with the 1:16 twist was designed by Bob to handle the heaviest .22 pellets - and I'm coming out with .22 Keith SWC soon, so there's going to be LOTS of caliber/bullet weight options.
;)
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I finally got a 4500 tank, and I was almost ready to put my SCUBA tank up for sale. I may have to hold on to it now...
Mike, you are really doing your homework. This project of yours sure looks cool so far. I haven't been interested in buying a pumper until now.
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Thanks!
I've hunted with pumpers my whole life since my Daisy 880 when I was 10 years old. I learned to get a little closer to make that one shot count - I became pretty quick at reloading and following up with another shot with only 4 or 5 pumps to get back on target quicker.
I got my first Sheridan .20 cal when I was 12...it took hundreds of pigeons and lots of squirrels and rabbits...I got pretty good shooting it with only 3 or 4 pumps so it wasn't so loud.
I've wanted my own Millenium Pumper since I saw Bobs first 'Show & Tell' on the Green forum. I set out to build my own but I'm no machinist and I couldn't find anybody to do it.
I like my Benji 392 but there's no modularity on parts. Basing this on a Disco with built in Picatinney rails, a removable top end, quick(er) change barrels and (wait for it!)...an actual thread on LDC!!!
All the benefits of Pumper and PCP rolled into one package I'm hoping weighs 6.5 lbs or less.
Fast forward to today...at 44 years old I feel like a little kid waiting for Christmas now that I have a great master machinist that actually has some time to build these guns and the prototypes are being worked on.
Something like the Millenium Pumper isn't just a dream that Bob had...
3 shots @ 40 ft lbs!?! Are you kidding me! ;) I would've been happy with a 30 ft lb round ball shooter!
Yes - the Ultimate Survival Air Rifle
8)
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I just had a light bulb moment :o ;D
$700 sounds like a lot for us budget airgunners(me)
I mean the M-rod is only $500 but in my light bulb moment
I was struck by the obvious...you don't need to buy
a $160-300 pump to shoot this pumper/pcp :o 8)
maybe I'm just slower than the rest but that makes it
the same cost as a marauder plus pump(or close)
and its self contained,so you will never run out
of air in the field or at the range.
Keep up the good work Mike!
Joseph
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!!! EXACTLY !!!
Not to mention the Mrod is not built anywhere even CLOSE to this gun in regards to breech rigidity to the pressure tube, barrel attachment specifications to the breech or barrel stiffness!
And the barrels are Mike Sayers hammer forged barrels - very good quality and very accurate.
;D ;D ;D
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Hey, if the top end will bolt onto a Disco tube.... Does that mean the bottom end will bolt up to a Crosman steel breech? That would make for an affordable option.
I voted for a pumper. Perfect self-contained truck gun! A .25 pumper @ 40-45fpe would be awesome.
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Wow! This is awesome. So glad to see someone pursuing this!
You mention easy barrel swapping. Do you see yourself providing .22 barrels? A couple more shots with a few less pumps would be very appealing.
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Yep! They will bolt right up to a Disco - either the entire lower or the entire top end.
This started as high quality top ends for Discos, but why stop there?
I've ordered both .25 & .22 barrels for our prototypes so I will have numbers for both calibers.
The rifle will be available in either caliber or both calibers if ordered at the time you order your rifle.
If you choose to buy a second caliber later on we will need your breech for properly indexing the transfer port line up of the breech and barrel port once the barrel is threaded into place.
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Uh...the breech alone is $125 and a 24" TJ barrel *blank* (unprepped/unmachined) is $130 after shipping to me...that's $255 and the CF sleeve hasn't even begun yet not to mention the *rest* of the gun ???
..........
i think 25-30 FPE for $300ish would sell like hotcakes . if you could make it using the crosman breech , barrel and drop the carbon fiber to save a few hundred bucks i think most folks would still be happy . or maybe do it as a inbetweener once you get your initial version squared away . no disrespect intended .......
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We could certainly just convert a stock Disco to a pumper - I have no idea what you'd expect for numbers though.
Maybe I'll convert a .22 Disco just to see where it comes in at...it would at least be a more workable rifle than a Benji 392.
It would ONLY be modifying the wood stock, adding a check valve and pump linkage = no Foster fill nipple or any valve work.
I guess that'd be the 'basement' model.
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Very interesting.
Can't wait to see how this project develops.
Love the option of either external or internal fill.
And duel caliber option very nice,
Dave
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We could certainly just convert a stock Disco to a pumper - I have no idea what you'd expect for numbers though.
Maybe I'll convert a .22 Disco just to see where it comes in at...it would at least be a more workable rifle than a Benji 392.
It would ONLY be modifying the wood stock, adding a check valve and pump linkage = no Foster fill nipple or any valve work.
I guess that'd be the 'basement' model.
basement model sounds sweet ;)
the 392 ain't what it used to be :(
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Yeah, but the 'basement' model is using whatever you happen to get from Crosman regarding barrels - I might be able to talk Jim into recrowning the barrel.
I can't see why it would have numbers any lower than a factory .22 Disco...
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Even a "basement model" would be quite a different gun than a 392.... The 392 is a "pump and dump" gun, and as such a large percentage of the air you pump into it goes out the barrel after the pellet has left.... The Millennium Pumper from the outset was designed to retain air in the valve like a PCP does, with the valve closing long before the pellet reaches the muzzle.... This conserves air and allows a followup shot, or even up to 3 shots within a very narrow (4%) velocity range, depending on how it is tuned.... The check valve is installed quite a bit in front of the valve, creating a valve chamber of about 28cc (about 1/4 the size of the Disco reservoir), compared with about 4 cc in a 392.... That means a lot more pumps to fill it, of course, but a much more efficient design....
The Disco is a $300 rifle, without the pump, and $479 with it (Crosman list prices).... At the very least, using the Crosman steel breech and stock barrel, you are looking at taking a Disco and ADDING a pump by slotting the tube and drilling additional holes, adding a front pivot mount, a pump linkage, a piston, and a check valve assembly, and cutting and modding the stock into a pump handle.... It is just plain silly to expect that to be done at no cost and suggest a $300 price tag.... Even if Crosman did it, they would have to sell it for significantly more than a Disco.... I think it would be ambitious to expect a "basement model" for less than the price of a Disco with pump, IMO....
The way I designed the gun, I realized that many would not want to pump it 80 times to get that 28cc reservoir to 1800 psi, so I added a Foster so that the gun could be filled from a tank or a stirrup pump.... I modded the valve considerably to get the gun to produce 50+ FPE on 1800 psi.... I also used the Mac1 extended billet pump linkage because it is a LOT stronger than a stock 392 linkage, and longer, enabling easier pumping.... but it ain't cheap (but worth every penny).... My gun had a Crosman breech, modded slightly, and a .25 cal LW barrel.... but using a stiffer Carbon sleeved barrel in a riser breech just makes sense.... It does, of course add to the price.... but IMO the results are worth it.... I also used a Boyd's Blaster stock, but that was just icing on the cake !!!.... Incidently, I sold the prototype for $1000 and after it was sold was offered more to make another (but declined)....
Bob
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;D
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yea , it is a big difference .
could the 2260 be made into a .22 cal. 25+ fpe single shot pumper with 15 pumps or less for $300 -$350ish ?
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The 2260 is no longer made.... and the tube is too short for a decent volume pump anyway....
Bob
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I'm focusing specifically on my prototypes as stated with my build specs...I'm really not going to entertain any other options at this time.
Bob built a fantastic rifle and I want to improve upon it with my custom top end - the design deserves nothing less.
That's why the thread reads 'High Quality' and I've made a direct challenge/comparison of my top end to $2500+ air rifles.
I'm trying to come in under $1000 - the whole 'its a Disco' premise needs to be dropped and forgotten about.
This may use a Disco pressure tube and and have the overall basic design regarding valving and power train function but this is an ENTIRELY different Beast!
I can buy a Disco pressure tube from Crosman for $25 and most of the work is completed except the few holes and milling a slot for the pump linkage.
If I was to buy raw tubing and have to mill and drill all of the needed slots and holes for the entire gun, that tube just went up in cost by 3x...
The premise is to use commercially available inexpensive (not to be confused with cheap!) parts so machining time is at a minimal.
My top end is where all of the accuracy magic is going to happen!
Why spend the money on a 'basement' model just for a MSP if its not going to be insanely accurate? It might be *cool* - but I don't want to let myself get sidetracked until the prototypes are built and tested and we produce an initial run of guns built to my specs.
Once that is done then I will take a look at other options.
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I'm focusing specifically on my prototypes as stated with my build specs...I'm really not going to entertain any other options at this time.
Bob built a fantastic rifle and I want to improve upon it with my custom top end - the design deserves nothing less.
+1
Thanks for that. I would not be interested in a cheap model, other wise I would have built one myself. I want something I can pick up and shoot accurately as soon as I get it.
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I'm in for a pumper. Whats not to like, American made, high performance. Regards, Tom
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When I get my custom RAW HM1000X I will shoot the Millennium head to head against it out to 75 yards.
I will tether the Millennium @ 1800 psi and tune the RAW down so they are both shooting 50 ft lbs.
Both rifles will be regulated.
They will both have my 1:22" twist 9/16" OD barrels sleeved in CF...both fully free floated.
I will tune the Mrod trigger to 8 oz so it can at least try to compare to Martins trigger.
This will be a *SOLID* test of my breech assembly against a well known $2500 top shelf air rifle (the base RAW is $2k and I'm having quite a few custom things done to mine).
The only real difference (other than obvious powerplants and my breech/barrel assembly) will be in barrel leade/crown prep and my sleeving process vs how Martin does it.
Not knocking either rifles build specs - it will just be to prove that the Millennium can hold its own against the best air rifle available.
;D
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.... Even at twice the price of a Disco, it will be less than half the price of an FX Indy....
Hmmm, I'm wondering: more buyers ... the lower the unit-price?!?!?!?
As a small-batch custom-made production run, probably ... NOT.
Even so, at half-the-price of an FX Independence ... which, being a married man, I can't justify ... the Millennium pumper may turn-out to be a practical and affordable alternative.
A domestically produced ... Poor Man's FX Independence (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1356258330/Marauder%20derived%20FX%20Independence%20...%20Poor%20Man%27s%20Independence).
It is about time a U.S.-sourced, Made-in-American, premium-quality MSP became available in the U.S. and clip-feed is the icing-on-the-cake.
I hope there is enough interest to warrent production.
And will tide-me-over until the Webley single-stroke Paradigm (http://www.solware.co.uk/air-pistol-air-rifle/webley-paradigm.shtml) ... if ever ... comes to fruition. ;)
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This sounds very interesting.
Your price point seems way more than fair for a custom handmade gun.
Chances are I'll pick one up from you.
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I had to bring this back up to top. Been thinking. Seems if a shooter wanted to do some long range shooting requiring very consistent velocities that it would be achievable with this rifle. Shoot once, pump right back to same pressure, shoot again, repeat. Be like shooting a regulated gun where the shooter is the regulator. Or, a lot like shooting any old school pumper just with a gauge to verify your pumping efforts and a great barrel and trigger with high velocities. This sound right?
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Correct!
Or just tether a 22ci JDS Airman bottle regulated @ 1800 psi to the Foster nipple via remote line for pure shooting (and regulated) enjoyment.
;)
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My original Millenium Pumper was about 1.16 FPE/CI on the first shot at 1800 psi.... shooting at 40 FPE that works out to 34 CI per shot.... With a 22 CI tank regulated to 1800 psi, there is 1200/14.5 = 83 bar available x 22 = 1820 CI, so you should get about 1820/34 = 53 shots.... let's call it about 50 shots using that setup....
Bob
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This is definitely interesting, and I'll be following the progress!
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Bob, now you have me daydreaming of an 18 cubic foot 4500 psi Guppy tank regulated to 1800 psi carried in a backpack and tethered to the Millennium...I hunted like that for a few years until I built my Challenger - only it was a 72ci tank with a JDS regulator @ 1400 psi in my backpack and it was tethered to my 35 ft lb 2260.
I still have that rig (its what I took my first grouse with last year) but I scaled down to the JDS 22ci tank to lighten up what I was carrying.
Theoretically *grin* How many shots would a regged Guppy tethered at 1800 psi give?
:P
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Joe lists the 18 CF 4500 psi tank as having a volume of 118 CI.... With an 1800 psi output regulator it would have 186 bar x 118 = 21972 CI of air available.... 21972 / 34 = 646 shots.... The 90 CI 4500 psi Ninja tank would give 186 x 90 / 34 = 492 shots....
Bob
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:o :o :o
Sounds like I need to call Joe tomorrow and ask about a DIN 300 male adapted regulator with a Foster fill nipple...to accept his micro bore hose (of course!).
8)
Are those calcs down to 1800 psi reg pressure or total volume? Either way, that is an *insane* shot count!
*edit* Everywhere I looked shows the Ninja as 'discontinued' :(
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Down to 1800 psi.... 4500 psi fill....
I just looked at the Ninja online catalogue, and they still list the 90 CI 4500 and it is available with a custom regulator, set to 1000 to 3000 psi, in either grey or black....It is available as a PCP fill station with valve and braided line for $299.95.... 36" Microbore 6000 psi hose is $40.00.... Also available from Tim @ Mac1 complete with a gauge and angled hose (my choice) for $295....
Bob
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I just got off the phone with John DiStefano of JDS Airman.
He has the 90ci 4500 psi bottles and will set the reg output to 1800 psi. They are $217 (right now - he's currently offering a 20% discount on regs).
If you order his premium fill station adapter it will be $271.
I like this purely to be able to bleed the remote line.
Doesn't B&A make a brass inline bleed valve?
Mike
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The Ninja fill station also has a bleed valve (Tim's also).... Can you get a Microbore hose from JDS?....
Bob
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I only see braided lines on the JDS site...
I will have to talk to Tim too...since we're using his Extended Steroid Billet lever it would only make sense to have folks order their bottle setup from him if they want one.
I will ask him about making the reg output @ 1800 psi.
*edit* I just got off the phone with Tim @ Mac 1...he can have the Ninja reg set to 1800 psi, offer a longer micro bore hose for backpack tethering and have a slide check installed on the hose by the bottle to bleed the remote line.
:)
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I would be super interested in a .22 pumper that can get 5 shots at 30 fpe or so (JSB 18.1 @ 875ish fps) Then I can just pump it back up.
I think you have an amazing idea. I want an FX Independence so bad, but $1800 is killer! This pumper idea is perfect for $700.
I can't afford it now, nor do I know when. But if, or when, it is made, I will be saving my pennies!
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$700 was an initial guess that I said not to hold me too...I'm trying my best to make it under $1000.
I'll have a price set in a couple of weeks.
Mike
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$700 was an initial guess that I said not to hold me too...I'm trying my best to make it under $1000.
I'll have a price set in a couple of weeks.
Mike
I apologize. I didn't mean to construe that I was going to hold you to $700. Anything less than an FX Independence is money saved! I'm just saying $700 is a good price point, but $1000 is also.
The unique situation that you have is pretty cool. You are going to offer a product that has zero competition. People will come to you because they want a better gun than a tricked out 13xx and don't want to pay the $1800 for an FX. There is no gun like that currently. You have the market at this point.
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You my friend are what America is all about. Rock on!
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I would've been happy with a pump n dump in .25 cal that had the modularity of a Disco - that's what started me 'thinking' a couple of years ago.
Then - Lo & Behold - there's Bobs Millennium Pumper thread!
I've really taken the top end to the extreme of what can be done for an air rifle and have suited it best I could as a high quality repeater...I don't think a stick mag made out of 7075 will ever wear out and there's no winding springs to go bad.
My top end (barrel/breech assembly) will bolt right on to a Disco, so the Bottle version is coming next - the Pumper is just WAY too functional and cool for hunting or survival that its the first thing we're doing.
I really hope the supply issue of Blaster blanks doesn't hinder production - if it does become an issue it will end up in a modified Disco stock...just know that is *NOT* what I want the final product to be wearing but it needs a stock to be shot so I will have to play the cards I'm dealt.
Anyway, the steel Picatinney breeches for the Disco/22xx are almost finished...I will post some pictures tomorrow. These are not for the Millenium - they are bolt on breeches for your existing gun.
If nobody buys any I will use them to build factory barreled bottle guns with.
My Millenium top end is a little complicated and not cheap - but the results should rival the RAW HM1000X in the accuracy department. I think that's all I really need to say!
;)
Millenium parts are starting in a couple days!
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My top end (barrel/breech assembly) will bolt right on to a Disco, so the Bottle version is coming next ...
I suspect the bottle version of the Millennium may appeal to a broader spectrum of airgunners - the PCP crowd.
In-fact, I had sent DiscosRus an internal message (http://discosrus.net/contact/) inquiring about the cost of converting a Disco to bottle feed (Ninja 13ci) along with BNM .25 caliber shrouded repeater top-end (http://www.bnmcustom.com/product/complete-kit-22xx-25-cal-long-shroud-copy/)
or BNM Airgun Multi Breech (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/BNM Airgun Multi Breech) on-or-about 18OCT2014.
As-of-yet, I haven't received a response.
CarsonRatSniper ... I think you're on the right-track with the bottle-conversion.
As such, what do you think the cost of a complete rifle might be (Disco stock and Blaster version)?
Anyway, the steel Picatinney breeches for the Disco/22xx are almost finished ....I not for the Millenium - they are bolt on breeches for your existing gun.
My Millenium top end is a little complicated and not cheap - but the results should rival the RAW HM1000X in the accuracy department.
Can a shrouded barrel system be incorporated into the design rather than a screw-on LDC?
Or, at the very least, the design will allow for an aftermarket shroud (http://www.bnmcustom.com/products_categories/shrouds/) to be easily installed by the owner.
A shrouded barrel may allow for a shorter OAL than adding an LDC.
Quiet is a big factor for me and, I think, to many others as well.
As such, a shrouded barrel option might be a viable idea.
Will your Disco top-end require any modifications to the OEM Disco stock?
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No mods needed to fit the top end on.
No room for a shroud - its all about barrel stiffness and breech rigidity. The muzzle will be threaded 1/2x20 for attaching whatever you want to the end of the rifle.
I will look at the bottle gun later on when I'm done working on the Millennium project.
Mike
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Stick mag?
I picture a elongated rectangle with 5 or so pellet holes machined to slide through breech? That it? So open bolt, advance stick, close bolt and shoot sound right?
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Yep...but it will be a side cocking gun so the loading/cocking actions are separate.
Still *much* faster for a follow up shot than digging around for a pellet, loading and shooting.
Mike
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Looking forward to this!!!
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Yep...but it will be a side cocking gun so the loading/cocking actions are separate.
Still *much* faster for a follow up shot than digging around for a pellet, loading and shooting.
Mike
Don't forget the step where you sort the pellet from the pocket lint..... ;D ;D ;D
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Actually, the stock will need to be inletted for the front breech/tube band, located in between the front of the trigger frame and gauge.
That factory 4-48 transfer port screw is GONE!
The breech is secured by the original rear breech/tube screw and the front of the breech is secured by the tube clamp.
The tube clamp will be 316 stainless threaded 6-32.
The retaining screws will install/remove from the top of the gun, through the breech so you don't need to pull the entire action out of the stock...the top end can be taken off the gun by removing 3 screws.
There's a couple other little details but I'm not sharing them - you'll have to wait until the guns come out.
Mike
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Yep...but it will be a side cocking gun so the loading/cocking actions are separate.
Still *much* faster for a follow up shot than digging around for a pellet, loading and shooting.
Mike
Don't forget the step where you sort the pellet from the pocket lint..... ;D ;D ;D
And the rest of the &^^& I carry around in my pocket.
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Hello Carson, for the bottle fed version, are you going to use rsternes idea with the reverse tank block for more plenum volume? or are you going to go with a JDS tank block style with smaller tube?
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I haven't gotten that far yet...I will test Bobs valve design @ 1800 psi with a full length tube to give enough plenum for some really good power.
Who said the bottle had to be attached to the gun? :o
I'm actually a pretty big fan of remote lines and bottles in shoulder bags or small day packs.
#1 - The balance and weight of the gun is very remarkable = light and points/handles fast;
#2 - Huge shot count!
I will take a more serious look at that build once we get the Millennium going strong.
Mike
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... for the bottle fed version ....
I haven't gotten that far yet...
I will take a more serious look at that build once we get the Millennium going strong.
Mike, there has/have been a number of titillating comments and attention-getting inquires made concerning the Millennium Bottle Fed version.
Maybe it is time to start a separate thread to get interested parties familiarized with your vision of the Millennium Bottle version.
And, to gather some ideas of what potential owners want in a Millennium PCP.
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I'm working on these (designs & drawings) on my off time from work and I'm over at Jim's shop as often as possible...usually every morning before I go to work.
The difference between a bottle gun and the pumper will purely be in powerplants that one top end can be used on.
I'm really not interested in designing or redesigning my top end...it allows for a .100" clearance over the tube with the .750" OD barrels...so really no room for a shroud.
I have too much going on right now to start a thread about a bottle version...I'm staying focused on what we are currently working on.
Thank you though!
Mike
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Cool.I just saw that rsterne calculated 50 shots with thev millenium tethered to a 22ci tank,that sounds pretty dam good.I could bench shoot for awhile then disconnect the line and walk in the woods and pump when I shoot. Also Carson, since it is based off of disco power plant would it be easy to maintain in case orings need to be replaced
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I will be scrimping and saving in the mean time. This will start a new trend in airguns...
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Yep...o rings should simply be -111 inside the valve and -116 for outside the valve (IIRC) - then whatever your bolt probe o ring is for caliber.
I've read the FX Independence had some corrosion issues due to moisture in the gun from their on board pump.
Each Millennium will come with a small bottle of Tims Secret Sauce for lubing pivot points and the piston wiper (I lube my pellets & slugs with it too!) - I would imagine the oil will eventually migrate into the valve and protect the internals from moisture issues.
It doesn't matter if it ends up 'shooting through' the gun...it doesn't skunk up a barrel like silicon grease does (don't ask me how I know).
I *was* going to use the setup I have on my 1322 Carbine - it has a felt wiper on the piston and the space between the wiper and triple piston head o rings was packed with divers silicon grease...it pumps butter smooth and doesn't need greasing or oiling as it self lubricates now...the triple piston head o rings prevent any migration into the valve assembly.
Maybe some migration is in order to protect the internals...if it works for Steroid Pumpers I suppose we should do the same thing!
Mike
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I've read the FX Independence had some corrosion issues due to moisture in the gun from their on board pump.
I remember something similar ... since, has been resolved.
Issues with the Independence.... (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1327919559/Issues+with+the+Independence....)
I just spoke to Fredrik about these issues; some Independence do have problems with rust
but there is no clear pattern of the guns affected, ie no batch issue or something.
All new guns, since some time ago, have been been sold with rustproof components and will not rust.
Those older guns that do show signs of corrosion will be taken care of by FX. Owners can send their rifles
to AoA or receive a servicepack sent to them if they want to carry out the work themself.
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I can add some comments about the bottle version, even though Mike and I haven't discussed his desires (yet).... Most of you will be familiar with my rule of thumb about having 1 cc of plenum volume between the regulator and the valve seat for each FPE you want the gun to produce.... There can be no doubt that having too small a plenum reduces the power, not only from my own experiments, but recently dyotat100 replaced a 1/2 cc per FPE plenum with a tank on his .30 cal Condor, and at the same pressure gained ~ 50 fps, virtually exactly what I predicted would happen.... Here is an example of what happens if the plenum is too small....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/PCP%20Internal%20Ballistics/MRodPlenum_zps845202ec.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/PCP%20Internal%20Ballistics/MRodPlenum_zps845202ec.jpg.html)
Starting with an unregulated MRod tuned to produce 45 FPE at 2000 psi, having a 45 cc plenum loses about 5%, a 23cc plenum about 10%, and an 11 cc plenum about 20%.... To make up for those FPE losses requires an increase in regulator setpoint, but you will still be losing efficiency, and the shot count will suffer as you lose "headroom" (the difference between a full tank and the setpoint pressure).... What does this mean for a .22 or .25 cal regulated bottle version of the Millennium?.... Well, let's look at the popular and accurate JSB Heavy and King pellets at 950 fps.... That is 36 FPE and 51 FPE, requiring that many cc's of plenum.... A full length 2260 tube, which is what I used on my 2260 and 2560 HPAs is 65 cc, which is great for up to .25 cal, and too small if you ever thought of going larger.... My solution was to use a reversed tank block to use the 2260 tube, which produces a gun that looks like this.... 2560 on the top, 2260 on the bottom, the only difference being the tank size, 17 CI vs 13 CI...
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/22%20PCP/IMG_2921_zpse9a8e8b5.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/22%20PCP/IMG_2921_zpse9a8e8b5.jpg.html)
If you wanted more than about 65 FPE, (eg. a .25 shooting slugs or a larger caliber).... then even the 2260 tube would not be enough volume.... A full length Disco tube is 135 cc, but then you have the problem of how to mount the tank.... Of course you could also go unregulated, insure that the passages between tank and valve are large enough, and then you can eliminate the plenum because the entire tank becomes plenum.... I hope this gives you guys something to think about as far as what is and isn't possible for a bottle gun.... Using a QB79 (JDS) style tank block and no plenum volume on a regulated gun will surely disappoint if you are after more than a low-medium power setup....
Bob
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I was thinking of using a full length Disco tube and taking advantage of the fill nipple on the left side of the gauge adapter...
135cc plenum (full tube) without a bottle to screw up the overall weight and balance of the gun.
Sure you have to run a remote line but its located in an easy to the reach spot by the left side of the breech and you can still have a regulated gun.
Just use a little shoulder bag for a 22ci bottle or a small pack like a Camelback for the 90ci bottle.
That *will* cover what we have talked about for future plans with this platform.
;)
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That would do it for a tethered PCP to be sure.... I'm not sure how many will share your enthusiasm for a tethered gun, but it would be a unique piece of the market, and require no changes from the Millennium design other than to eliminate the pump and check valve assembly.... so pretty much a no-brainer in the production department.... If you tune the gun the same as the pumper (eg. 3 shots at 40 FPE) you could still fill from a regulated tank to 1800 psi, untether, shoot your 3 shots, and then refill, of course.... or tether when you are at the bench or find it convenient.... Not a bad compromise.... If you want more air, just add a Disco Double lower tube....
Bob
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A regulated Double-Disco with a Millennium upper might be a feasible idea?!?!?!
Inserting a Ninja Pro regulator (http://www.ninjapaintball.com/documents/SHP%20Regulator.pdf) between the lower-tube and the fill nipple on the left-side of the gauge adapter.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k21/aom22/Crosman%20Air%20Guns/Custom%20Stock%20Crosman/caf204fc-db0f-4e74-bf4e-a3051626b45f.jpg~original) (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/aom22/media/Crosman%20Air%20Guns/Custom%20Stock%20Crosman/01-24-14-04-Benjamin-Discovery-Disco-Double-lightweight.jpg.html)
Image sourced from:
.22-caliber Lightweight Disco Double: Part 1
Interesting background (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2014/01/22-caliber-lightweight-double-disco-part-1/)
Where did Lloyd get the idea for the Disco Double?
Is the Benjamin Discovery somehow deficient in air capacity?
Not really.
But Lloyd was building a special .25-caliber conversion of the rifle for a customer, and it ran out of air very fast.
The double air tubes were put there to make that big .25 a workable solution.
And, after seeing what those tubes added to the rifle, Lloyd naturally expanded his conversions to the basic rifle,
and the Disco Double was born!
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Why not build a super ACP type of rifle based on the disco double? One made with the lower tube configured as the pump and just tbe upper tube as the reservoir? More of a PCP an ACP, just like the independance but a lot more affordable. I imagine that even if you have to buy the Disco at retail, yiu could build and sell this gun for double tge price of a Disco and still have a decent profit margin. Or offer it as a conversion option. I wojld readily pay the price of a brand new Disco plus shipping to have a disco converted like this...
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That was EXACTLY what I had planned for my .25 Challenger Double Tube - it only works as a Reverse Pumper...the pump arm pivots reverse to what everybody is used to.
I will take a better look at that design later...I have an idea that will allow us to get away from the reverse pump configuration.
Mike
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That is awesome. Talk about the ultimate air rifle. The indy is nice, but was too expensive and it looks like a ray gun. I'd really like to see a more practical version, with a more prsctical price tag. At least for under a grand, and still having a fill port or nipple. I would definitely join the dark side for that, lol.
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... it only works as a Reverse Pumper...the pump arm pivots reverse to what everybody is used to.
I will take a better look at that design later...I have an idea that will allow us to get away from the reverse pump configuration.
Would reverse-pumping be like a cocking under-lever springer?!?!?!
Reverse pumping might be easier than conventional pumping.
By bracing the butt of the air rifle on the thigh and, then, pulling-down on the pump-lever.
Reverse-pumping, like an under-lever springer, may allow the user to use with both-hands
to draw-down the compression-lever towards the braced-butt.
Rather than, using a conventional pump-hold ... grasping the top of the receiver with the off-hand.
While the other hand holds the pump-handle ... driving the pump-handle towards the receiver.
With a scope mounted, hard/heavy conventional pumping can get a little tricky.
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aom22, you would need to run the reservoir tube at 3000 psi in order to get any benefit in shot count with a regulator setpoint of 1800 psi.... Yes, a Double Disco with one tube as reservoir and the other as plenum would work if you did that.... What makes sense is to use the upper tube (containing the valve) as the plenum, with the regulator mounted in the front of it, and use the lower tube as reservoir, running at 3000 psi.... If you ran a setpoint of 1800 psi, that 1200 psi (83 bar) of "headroom", with the lower tube volume of 115 cc (7 CI) should give you a total of about (83 x 7) = 581 FPE of regulated shots.... That could be 5 shots at 116 FPE, 10 shots at 58, or 20 at 29 FPE.... and you could likely do a bit better than that, it assume an efficiency of 1.0 FPE/CI which isn't that tough to achieve....
Bob
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The regulator would need to be installed in the upper tube just like the check valve is going to be on the Pumper.
The lower tube contains the fill nipple and that is also where the screw that connects the two tubes together is - the joining screw has a tiny hole drilled through the center to allow air to pass between the two tubes.
I thought about having the lower tube thread into the gauge block where the 16 gram CO2 bulb would go but that won't work if you want it regulated as the lower tube will be feeding the valve almost directly through its face.
Bob, maybe the regulator could be installed at the gauge block end in the lower tube?
The muzzle end of the lower tube would need a band attaching it to the main tube to keep the lower tube supported...you could bypass the regulator in the lower tube by tethering to the gauge block fill nipple...unless this design doesn't get a fill nipple in the gauge block due to whether or not there's enough room.
This can be done but I need to speak with Lloyd about it - the Double Tube is his baby and I'm not stepping on anybodys toes...
Mike
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I PM'd Lloyd and he thinks it may be possible to incorporate a regulator into the front plug of the upper tube.... That would leave the lower tube as the reservoir and the upper as the plenum, which makes sense as the valve is already mounted in it....
Bob
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*THAT* would be awesome Bob!
:)
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... possible to incorporate a regulator into the front plug of the upper tube....
That would leave the lower tube as the reservoir and the upper as the plenum, which makes sense as the valve is already mounted in it....
A regulated Double-Disco with a Millennium upper and a Disco or Blaster stock ... sounds like an reasonably affordable package.
Would it be possible to adapt a Ninja Pro regulator (http://www.ninjapaintball.com/documents/SHP%20Regulator.pdf) to the front-end for the lower-tube (reservior) with a high-pressure line
connected the out-put end of the Ninja Pro routed to the front-end plug of the upper-tube (plenum).
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Now we just have to convince Lloyd that tooling up to do the regulator installation is worth it.... I know it can be built using Ninja pistons, so there is a lot of work saved, right there.... C'mon Lloyd, join the party?.... *LOL*....
Bob
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.... C'mon Lloyd, join the party?....
I'll bet Llyod would be convinced if he were presented with a list of customers that have laid-down a deposit
for a position with the Millennium PCP project as part of a group buy.
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It's not a simple thing to tool up to make the required internal regulator housing (the only way to do it, IMO).... and figure out how to remount the gauge, if possible.... but we can hope he finds the interest and the time.... time always being a problem....
Bob
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It's not a simple thing to tool up to make the required internal regulator housing (the only way to do it, IMO)....
Integrating an external regulator would be more expeditious and, probably, less expensive.
And, would allow for easier out-put pressure adjustments.
Certainly not as esthetically pleasing ... but, more pragmatic.
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Heck, I'd buy 1 from him *right now* and install it in my Challenger Double Tube!
I've got 290cc's of air in the gun because the lower tube is 4" longer than a Disco due to the gauge being located on the side of the rifle...the lower tube comes all the way back to the valve retaining screws.
I can tether my 13ci 1800 psi regged bottle and see what kind of numbers I get with my current set up.
I will mod a Millennium breech to fit my Challenger - then install a Rsterne valve *wink* - and I can test the theory of how this setup will work in 30 minutes.
Just have to get some breeches built!
Mike
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aom22.... and something Lloyd would, IMO, not be interested in doing, and neither would I....
Bob
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Time to open a secret airgun account ::) If you build it, they will come... Where did that naked indian come from ;D In all seriousness- make this happen, I swear I will buy. Saving now. Someone will make it, I bet someone out there has already gotten started. Make mine .22 however, so I can shoot off the shelf ammo 8)
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The whole external regulator is simply solved by tethering a regged bottle to the gun.
The *internal* regulator in the end cap assembly would make for a very clean looking gun without something hanging off the end to get snagged up on branches or whatever.
I really like that idea and hope Lloyd can find the time to come up with something - or maybe Lloyd could provide Jim with some drawings for what needs to be machined - there's enough talent around here in the GTA that if we actually got some good collaborated efforts together we could probably become a World leader and producer of some very fine custom or semi custom air rifles!
The more parts you run, the less expensive each part becomes...
I'm just throwing that out there...there should be a *Meeting of the Brains* some day and we should all put in to start a Corporation.
I know...now I'm *REALLY* daydreaming!
::)
RG25 - I've already got TWO .22 barrels ;D
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I can't stand the tethered bottles. I don't expect lines like a daystate huntsman, but it ought to look at least some what like a sporter and handle somewhat nicely. What's the point of having a gun with an on board pump if it looks and handles like you just tethered and strapped a pump to it. Might as well just put a rifle sling on a regular pump to make it easier to carry! It's worth putting time and effort into making tbe gun look clean. Just my 2 cents
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We're talking 2 different guns here...the Pumper will *not* be a regulated gun.
There's an interest in a regulated PCP using Airgun Labs Double Tube Kit...
One is the Millennium Pumper and the other is the Millennium PCP.
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I'm suffering from a little more confusion concerning the pumper. This may stem from me reading about your other future designs but here goes. Will the pumper have two tubes like a Disco double or will it look like Bobs original Millenium pumper? Seems Ive been reading about the stock needing modified like a Disco double but it looks like it would only need cut to provide a pump handle and drilled/milled to accept pump arm?
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It will be a single tube just like Bobs original...*basically* needing the stock cut but will need some additional inletting for a 16 gram CO2 bulb like he built his Carbine Pumper with.
Its a blend of both guns Bob built to add some more internal volume to make larger calibers viable...there's a 'ceiling' we hit for practicality though so the pumper will have a max caliber it will hit with its design platform.
Mike
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From my understanding there were two versions of the Millennium pumper being discussed.
The majority of comments revolved around the "basement model" resterne had originally referred to ... single-tube.
Even a "basement model" .... (T)the Millennium Pumper from the outset was designed to retain air in the valve like a PCP does, with the valve closing long before the pellet reaches the muzzle....
This conserves air and allows a followup shot, or even up to 3 shots within a very narrow (4%) velocity range, depending on how it is tuned....
The check valve is installed quite a bit in front of the valve, creating a valve chamber of about 28cc (about 1/4 the size of the Disco reservoir), compared with about 4 cc in a 392....
That means a lot more pumps to fill it, of course, but a much more efficient design.... Bob
That is the version Mike ... now ... affirms will be the Millennium pumper to be produced.
It will be a single tube just like Bobs original...*basically* needing the stock cut but will need some additional inletting for a 16 gram CO2 bulb like he built his Carbine Pumper with.
Its a blend of both guns Bob built to add some more internal volume to make larger calibers viable... Mike
However, Mike ... if, ever so briefly ... also, made mention of another pumper concept: ".25 Challenger Double Tube - it only works as a Reverse Pumper."
Same Millennium operating principles except the 16gram CO2 bulb would be replaced by the upper-tube of the Challenger-double.
While, the lower-tube of the Challenger-double would be the compression tube.
Why not build a super ACP type of rifle based on the disco double? One made with the lower tube configured as the pump and just the upper tube as the reservoir?
More of a PCP an ACP, just like the independance but a lot more affordable.
That was EXACTLY what I had planned for my .25 Challenger Double Tube - it only works as a Reverse Pumper...the pump arm pivots reverse to what everybody is used to.
I will take a better look at that design later... Mike
As far as I'm concerned the".25 Challenger Double Tube" is a very exciting design to consider.
And, if a regulator were incorporated ... the Challenger may prove to be ... feature-wise ... a step ahead of the FX Independence.
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Lots of good ideas and excellent feedback from lots of people...
If I *drop off the map* for a couple of weeks it is because I am getting something built and can no longer afford to be distracted 2-3 hours a day checking and responding to every post on the forum...
I will post updates when I have something to share...
Thanks everyone!
Mike
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I can't see the practicality of making a regulated pumper, as there is no way to reach high enough pressures using a single stage pump like we are using.... In addition, if you had a double tube design, the reservoir would be so large (135 cc) that it would take hundreds of pumps to fill it.... It would also be, IMO, prohibitively heavy.... These projects tend to suffer from "Mission Creep" by their very nature, particularly when public input is being provided.... The only significant change to my Millenium Pumper will be the addition of the 16 gr. CO2 cartridge inside the stock just ahead of the gauge to increase the reservoir from 28 cc to 45 cc, the concept already proven in my Disco Carbine Pumper.... It is a simple blending of the two designs to provide more air onboard with virtually no increase in weight and no change in external appearance.... The addition of Mike and Jim's Millenium top end completes the build....
I proposed my idea of a regulated Disco Double to Lloyd, and I can tell you that he is interested, and we are studying the feasibility.... This is in reality a completely separate project, and IF it happens would be something Lloyd would develop and offer through AirGunLab, at least that is how I view it.... Mike would, of course, be able to supply the Millenium top end to fit on a Disco Double (regulated or not), just as he could to fit on any Disco.... and the combination of the two would be a stunningly useful PCP.... However, this project and the Millenium Pumper are essentially two separate designs....
Bob
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I can't see the practicality of making a regulated pumper, as there is no way to reach high enough pressures
using a single stage pump like we are using....
Bob, visualize Steve in NC's ACP
(http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/blog/2009/01/steve-from-ncs-wicked-cool-air.html)... is there no-reason-why his design could have a check valve to contain air in a very small resevior to supply a regulator installed upstream
from the "16gm threaded CO2 cartridge acting as a supplementary air reservoir (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1236106241/1236197390/ACP392+as+Self-Contained+PCP-+6+shots+-+606fps+-+ES+-+6fps.)."
To allow for a few ... 2-to-3 ... well-regulated shots for hunting.
Then, perhaps, only 3-to-5 strokes of the pump-arm to replenish the very small air reservoir feeding the regulator for each shot taken.
I can't see the practicality of making a regulated pumper, as there is no way to reach
high enough pressures using a single stage pump like we are using....
In addition, if you had a double tube design, the reservoir would be so large (135 cc) that it would take hundreds of pumps to fill it.... Bob
For 2-to-3 well regulated shots ... wouldn't require a large reserve capacity - much, much less than 135cc.
Moreover, with several foster fittings ... a hand-pump could be used for the initial charge of the reservoir feeding the regulator and the separated plenum.
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If you want an ACP that is in the 392 class for power, then go for it.... Small amounts of power lead to minimal pumping.... Large amounts of power require more storage and more pumping (or filling from a tank or stirrup pump).... There is no point in installing a regulator running at 1800 psi (or even 1600) in a pumper that can only pump to that level, IMO.... If you want to pump up a reservoir to 1800 and then regulate it down to 1200 it would work.... but then your FPE is limited to what you can get from 1200, and the lower efficiency that results from that....
If on the other hand, you want a double tube design, with 135 cc of air storage in the upper tube, then again I say, go for it.... There are as many possibilities of how to build a Millennium Pumper as you and I can imagine, and then take that number and square it (at least).... When I developed MY version of the Millennium Pumper, that's exactly what I called it, MY VERSION.... After many years of it being talked about on the Green, nobody had done anything about it until I did.... I first built the Carbine, out of nearly 100% Crosman/Benji parts.... then learning from that I developed my version of what I thought the Millennium Pumper could be, still using mostly Crosman parts.... AFAIK, nobody else has taken it even to that level yet, let alone further.... I applaud Mike for taking the idea and running with it.... Crosman easily could of and ignored it.... Let's hear it for the "little guy" !!!
Bob
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rsterne, thanks for schooling me on the impracticality of regulating a MSP.
And, thanks to CarsonRatSniper for taking-up the challenge of
attempting to build a viable Millennium Pumper for all of us.
I really hope the Millennium Pumper and Millennium PCP come to fruition.
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If I *drop off the map* for a couple of weeks it is because I am getting something built and can no longer afford to be distracted 2-3 hours a day checking and responding to every post on the forum...
I will post updates when I have something to share...
A picture or two along the journey of the build process is sure to set all us followers into a frenzy.
These projects tend to suffer from "Mission Creep" by their very nature, particularly when public input is being provided.
I could kind of feel that happening and I'm as guilty as anybody. I hope we didn't cause too much mission creep. Be a shame to creep this project out of completion. I for one am really hoping Mike and his rifle can succeed.
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If I *drop off the map* for a couple of weeks it is because I am getting something built and can no longer afford to be distracted 2-3 hours a day checking and responding to every post on the forum...
I will post updates when I have something to share...
A picture or two along the journey of the build process is sure to set all us followers into a frenzy.
These projects tend to suffer from "Mission Creep" by their very nature, particularly when public input is being provided.
I could kind of feel that happening and I'm as guilty as anybody. I hope we didn't cause too much mission creep. Be a shame to creep this project out of completion. I for one am really hoping Mike and his rifle can succeed.
It would be a shame. My apologies... I guess I need to build a project of my own, lol.
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Ideas and discussion are always welcome, as long as those offering same don't get upset when their suggestions aren't used.... In many cases they have already been tried and failed, or they simply are unlikely to achieve the desired results.... Once in a while we get a good idea we haven't thought of, and then it, or a modified version of it, get incorporated into the project.... I have seen too many projects fail because the builder gets so sidetracked that he loses sight of his original goal, and I have to admit I have tried to do my level best to keep Mike focused on simply producing what I developed, more or less as-is.... We both, virtually simultaneously (and independently), came up with the idea to add the 16 gr. from the Carbine to the Millennium Pumper to increase the onboard reservoir volume, as the only downside is increased pumping if you are using the onboard pump to fill it.... It shouldn't increase the "pumps per shot" to top up the gun, though.... Otherwise, the intention is to produce my Millenium Pumper as I built it, with the addition of a new repeating breech, and a carbon sleeve bonded to the barrel to stiffen it.... I'm looking forward to seeing this project completed and marketed.... and wish Mike and Jim every success....
Bob
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So you guys are going after some power(6.35mm), but what kind of specs/efficiency could we get with a 12fpe .177 or a 20fpe .22? Could we get 25 or more shots per fill and only pump 10 times to recharge? Or better?
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No and no!.... I don't think Mike has any plans for .177, but building a 20 FPE .22 would be no problem.... We won't know how many shots the new 45cc reservoir will deliver, but it is 1/3rd the size of a Disco, so that should give you a pretty good idea.... I would think 10 shots at that power level MAY be possible.... My .25 cal, after 3 shots at 40 FPE required 40 pumps to refill to 1800 psi, and that was with the 28cc reservoir.... IF we get 5 shots at the same 40 FPE with the 45cc reservoir (I'm hoping for that), it should take about 65 pumps to get back to 1800, so that would be about what you could expect after 10 shots at 20 FPE, approximately.... My best guess would be about 5 pumps per shot at first, increasing to maybe 7 pumps per shot if you shot 10 shots of 20 FPE.... but at present that is just a WAG....
Bob
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I'm only jumping in here to say I have a 1:16 twist .217" barrel that will be tested on a gun...I will post full specs and available calibers when we have 2 working guns *with stocks* ;) that I can put through the paces.
Jim is making an entirely new plate for his cutting machine since I went and changed the Millennium breech to 1.25" wide at the barrel junction.
*OOPS*!
Didn't I mention I was no machinist?
I had no idea what kind of things needed to be built just to cut a Picatinney rail...
Its getting done but we can't start until he has the plate machined.
I sure hope some of you guys out there buys these guns...we won't turn a profit until about 15 are sold! :(
I will update with pics as we progress...
Mike
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I will do everything in my powwr to buy one . I have complete faith in your project .
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I will do everything in my powwr to buy one . I have complete faith in your project .
Me too. I'm putting in overtime at work and at convincing my wife how badly we need a multi shot high powered pellet rifle.
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I will sell the diamond earnings my grandmother left for me to give to my future wife. No doubt she would understand.
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I will sell the diamond earnings my grandmother left for me to give to my future wife. No doubt she would understand.
LOL now lets not be rash. After all it is just an Air rifle. ;D
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I will sell the diamond earnings my grandmother left for me to give to my future wife. No doubt she would understand.
It's a pumper, it's a PCP, it's a repeater, it's high energy. How could she not understand?
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No and no!.... I don't think Mike has any plans for .177....
TJ's Barrel liners are the ticket for a conversion, see attached photo (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1414448749/TJ%27s+Barrel+liners+are+the+ticket+for+a+conversion%2C+see+attached+photo)
TJ's Enterprises
3652 Neltner Rd
Alexandria, KY 41001
(859) 635-5560
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k21/aom22/Barrels/Barrel%20Liners/TJs%20Enterprises/TJsprice.jpg~original) (http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k21/aom22/Barrels/Barrel%20Liners/TJs%20Enterprises/TJsprice.jpg~original)
I think I see why there won't be a .177 anytime soon.
That is, a Millennium Pump/PCP with a TJ's barrel in .177 ... the only barrel liner
TJ lists in .177 has a 1:9 twist - firearm specification.
It is also interesting to compare the T.J.'s bore/land specifications with Lothar-Walther barrel specs (http://www.lothar-walther.com/457.php).
T.J.'s and LW dimensions in .22 caliber vary somewhat - inparticular, the bore diameter.
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Barrels can be obtained from other sources, such as LW.... IMO the reason (for no .177) is that the Millenium Pumper was primarily designed to push MSPs to a whole new level of power, and the only way to harness that in a .177 would be to run extremely heavy pellets (13+ gr.).... That is somewhat akin to building a Nascar engine and then putting a restrictor plate on it.... It has a specific and limited purpose (that can provide a lot of entertainment) that had no interest for me, and hence wasn't on the radar when I did the original build.... I barely even considered a .22 cal at the time, although I can understand including it from a marketing point of view.... I'm sure that once Mike builds some and they end up in the hands of shooters, both larger and smaller calibers will emerge.... It's all economics at this point, too many changes, and going in too many directions at once, will result in no profit and ultimate failure of the attempt, IMO....
Your prices on the TJ's liners are way out of date, BTW.... and there are more sizes available now....
Bob
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... IMO the reason (for no .177) is that the Millenium Pumper was primarily designed to push MSPs to a whole new level
of power, and the only way to harness that in a .177 would be to run extremely heavy pellets (13 gr.).... Bob
Bob, one of the main attractions of the a pumper to me is the ability to control power-output.
For a .177 caliber Millennium Pumper to be more useful, the ability use mid-weight pellets is the the key.
A MSP would can make this possible ... just add fewer-strokes of compression.
For my use, magnum-power would not be needed ... all of the time.
In situations such as plinking or quiet backyard target-shooting much less-power would be required.
With a lower-power requirement, there would-be less of a work-load to keep the Millennium under optimum compression
for the task at hand.
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Yes, it could be done by using less pressure and reducing the hammer strike correspondingly.... longer shots strings at less power and/or fewer pumps per shot.... Everybody has a different use, and the gun could be tailored to suit.... For your purposes, a 397 ACP would do as well.... It is not possible with any air-conserving design to just pump less because the hammer strike ends up being too much for the lower pressure and the velocity actually goes up (initially) before the gun becomes a pump-and-dump.... losing the efficiency advantage, in fact big-time because of the large reservoir.... You have to retune the hammer strike along with the lower pressure you want to use, maybe even change springs.... and then resight the gun for the new POI.... It's a lot of fiddling to change modes, IMO, but certainly possible, just as it is with a PCP.... Not my cuppa tea, but if you can only have one gun to do it all, is certainly possible....
When people think of an MSP they tend to think of a pump-and-dump gun where pumps in = power out in a simple, straight-forward fashion.... Think of this gun as a PCP with an onboard pump and you will get a better idea of its strengths and weaknesses.... Possible, yes?.... Practical?, that's in the eye of the beholder....
Bob
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.... For your purposes, a 397 ACP would do as well ... Bob
Yep, I've looked into an ACP.
Unfortunately AoA only sells the 392 (http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/BenjaminACP.htm) version.
I prefer a .177 or .20 caliber, considering the relatively low FPE a ACP produces.
By-the-way, Steve-in-NC is willing to mod a 397.
But, he willl only due-so ... three at a time.
I know, I've traded a few emails with him on the topic.
Also, one interesting feature of the ACP (http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/blog/2009/01/steve-from-ncs-wicked-cool-air.html), his pumper is equipped witha a dual-sear trigger
allowing regular-power and a lower-output setting - neat.
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You have to retune the hammer strike along with the lower pressure you want to use ..... Bob
Then, the ability for to the owner to easily adjust the hammer-strike ... this appears to be the key for practical lower-power output.
Hmmmm, having the ability to easily manipulate the hammer-strike may help in fine-tuning the air rifle to the pellet for best accuracy.
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Correct, and Mike will be providing an RVA (rear velocity adjuster, aka power adjuster, aka preload adjuster) that also allows swapping out the hammer spring without stripping the back of the gun, only pulling out the adjusting screw.... Any PCP without one is seriously handicapping the adjustability and tuning, IMO.... and for an ACP they are necessary to balance the velocities over 1, 2, 3, or "X" shots depending on your needs.... Go back to Reply #4 on Page #1 to see the shot strings I had with just a hammer preload adjustment....To make a huge change (eg. from a 40 FPE .25 cal to a 10 FPE .177 cal) may well require changing the spring, particularly if you want to detune to a much lower pressure (with easier pumping)....
Bob
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Hi Bob,
Don't mean to change the subject, but did you weigh your gun after you finished it?
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According to the original thread, it weighs "7.25 lbs. without the scope"....
Bob
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I've been away from the Forum for a few weeks and just saw this thread. WOW! I love the idea and would like to have something like this. Has a price ever been decided on? Also, How much power will it take to pump the rifle up to full capacity? I'm getting older and weaker from arthritis and other joint issues and recently bought a break barrel from Umarax. I could not cock the dang thing very easily at all. I mean I had to strain to do it and I was worried I'd break something in the gun but it was only my joints popping. Would someone like me even be able to use this rifle? I have a Disco but really like the idea of not having to carry a fill tank with me to shoot and I've modified it to 25 CAL so I only get about 12 good, reliable shots per fill. I need this rifle if I can pump it! Gene
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OK YOU HAVE MY WHEELS TURNING.
SIGN ME UP
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I have no idea what the pumping force will be - I would imagine it will be similar to a Steroid 392 @ 14 pumps or a bit harder...Bob would have to chime in on that one.
We're cutting breeches! ;D
7075 aluminum with a stick magazine. The Picatinney rail will continue all the way across the top of the breech = no traditional loading port...there will be a 'rectangle' milled through the side of the breech for the stick mag to index into. The mag will also be made of 7075 aluminum and offer *full* support just like a breech block.
The end of the breeches will be 1/2" longer than a factory steel breech (6 3/4" long) and will be machined round to accept a barrel band - just like Grant Stace used to make his breeches.
This design also does away with the 4-48 transfer port screw ;)
The breeches and the barrels will be threaded. The bolt will be .375" stainless and be reduced for the appropriate caliber in the magazine/barrel portion.
Transfer ports will be made of 5/16" Delrin with the appropriate transfer port hole sized for caliber.
Want to change calibers? Remove the top end - unscrew the barrel - remove the bolt - install the bolt/barrel/magazine/transfer port for the caliber you want and reinstall.
Calibers will be .22, .25 & .30 :o Yes I said it...a .30 caliber pumper!
We are making 2 complete rifles with Blaster stocks in Pepper laminate.
All aluminum parts will be bead blasted to reduce glare.
Once they are tested, data collected and we *get it out there* we are producing these guns those first 2 rifles will be sold to finance the next run of guns.
I'm hoping to have barreled actions to send to Norm for stocks in 2-3 weeks.
I will start a new Millenium Pumper build thread as soon as I have some pictures to share.
I won't have any pricing until we make all the parts and look at what each part costs us to make.
These are *NOT* going to be one off builds! Jim & I will be marketing them to retailers and we are hoping to go into full time production with the rifles.
We're getting close boys!!!
Mike
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I'm stoked to see how this goes!
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Thanks for the update Mike!!
Looking forward to more info and pics!
Keep up the good work 8)
Joseph
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Glad you announced the .30 cal, Mike, I've been busting at the seams wanting to say something.... *LOL*.... It's a pellet shooter, of course, using the 26" twist barrel that Sean and I designed, which is a true .300 cal groove with 0.294" lands designed for the 45-50 gr. JSB Exacts (also marketed by FX and Daystate under their own labels).... We won't know what kind of FPE we can achieve until we do the testing, but my spreadsheet says about 60-65 FPE (750-800 fps) should be possible, and the larger 45cc plenum should make that work OK.... Whether we can get that kind of power for 2 shots (with a backup) remains to be seen.... as we're in totally new territory here....
I like the rigidity of the breech design with the continuous rail and the rectangular window for the magazine, Mike, that sounds great.... I'm looking forward to seeing them.... This is getting EXCITING !!!
Bob
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Yeah, I'm pretty stoked Bob!
We also raised the breech .215" over the tube so the .750" OD CF sleeved barrels will still be happening.
They will index and tension against the breech face where the barrel band is located.
If you want a true repeating .30 cal we're back to tethering to an 1800 psi regged tank in a bag or small day pack.
The .22 cal barrels Mike sent me are the slow 1:22 twist - I will order some of the 1:16's once these are tested so we can see how the .22 heavies perform.
I will conduct my initial testing with a 22ci tank...then see what one of those 90ci 4500 psi tanks from Tim will do in regards to shot count.
I should have reportable data by the end of November.
;)
Mike
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Hey, two shots from a .30 cal with a backup would be a pretty deadly setup for hunting, and I think it's possible to do that, especially with the new 45cc reservoir....
Bob
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I can't wait just to have a *.30 cal Pumper*!
You certainly don't need the tank - I'm just pointing out (again LOL) the versatility of this gun.
I don't even care if its 30 pumps or something per shot...its gonna be *awesome*!
;D
Mike
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I'd also be interested in the Disco bottle conversion setup in addition to the pumper. Just happen to have a couple of those 13 cu.in bottle lying around for, and from various projects.
Casey
Plus any of you programmers out there we have a pretty active thread on some basic open source software for now at least the Chrony brand chronographs. ( sorry not trying to threat jack, just looking for some more programmers, so we can build something nice and basically free for the community)
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The bottle gun with my Millennium top end will happen once we get the Pumper launched.
Same internals and power capabilities... just bottle fed vs Pumper.
It hasn't hit the drawing board yet but maybe in December sometime I will take a serious look at it.
Its really just a matter how of the plenum/tank block configuration will be produced.
The tank block will need a pin to open the valve so bottles are field swappable.
JDS's block requires you to remove the pin in the bottle and it just stays on the gun (from what I was told)...I want to be able to screw in different bottles in the field, different reg pressures depending on caliber and even CO2 for summertime.
Mike
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The 2260 is no longer made.... and the tube is too short for a decent volume pump anyway....
Bob
It' back!
http://www.crosman.com/airguns/rifles/co2/2260WC (http://www.crosman.com/airguns/rifles/co2/2260WC)
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I didn't realize they brought it back, big jump in price!.... The tube is too short to make into a pumper with a decent size stroke anyway....At least 2260 tubes will be available for a while longer, they make a great base for an HPA bottle conversion....
Bob
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I didn't realize they brought it back, big jump in price!.... The tube is too short to make into a pumper with a decent size stroke anyway....At least 2260 tubes will be available for a while longer, they make a great base for an HPA bottle conversion....
Bob
Will a hipac fit the 2260?
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I do believe that they sell a model for a 2260, but that was a while ago.