GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Big Bore AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Inovairtech on February 15, 2014, 09:51:57 AM
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Hi All
We currently have several products in production and on the design board, however our first product launch (due late Spring 2014) is the MAC35
A high power full-bore air-gunning in .357 (9mm) calibre without being tied to your refill tank.
Unlike most current PCP full-bore air rifles that are only good for a few shots before refilling, the MAC system lets you load up as many cartridges as you plan to use and then you are free to enjoy the simple pleasure of shooting and not worry about how many shots are remaining in your guns integral air tank.
The platform resembles a typical long range sniper rifle, built with integral picatinny rails for easy addition of accessories, such as scopes, bi-pods, lamps, laser sighting systems etc. (The Inovairtech on-line shop will offer all the shooter can ask for in terms of accessories for your MAC35).
Function - Just imagine the function of a traditional bolt-action firearm rifle and there is no more to say about how it works.
The action is a crisp bolt-action single shot design, enabling smooth, precise shooting at typical air gun ranges. The single stage trigger has a 4lb pull, making the whole shooting experience an absolute pleasure.
The MAC .35 has a fired-cartridge ejection system to remove used cartridges effectively, ready to receive a fresh charged and loaded magnum air cartridge. The bolt operates in the same manner as a center-fire rifle, making it totally intuitive for even the novice shooter.
As the whole loading, firing, ejection and re-loading with the magnum air cartridge totally emulates a traditional center fire cartridge - it is great news for cheap training and shooting practice - all the feel of the real thing, at a fraction of the cost, just a little compressed air and a fresh bullet / pellet, refilling the air cartridge with air prior to re-use.
The MAC .35 frame is constructed from light-weight aircraft grade aluminium, with a 28" (71mm) Lothar Walther steel barrel and key components constructed from stainless steel. This makes the MAC .35 rugged and yet lightweight, tipping the scales at 4Kgs (8.5lbs), even with the 'bull' 22mm barrel and barrel 'muzzle protector'. External finish is 'Cerakote' for durability and purchasers can suggest customs colours from the Cerakote range to bespoke their MAC35 when ordering (Additional cost applies)
The Inovairtech MAC .35 is designed to handle cast soft lead bullets up to 145 grains or commercially available 9mm pellets of typically around 65-80 grains weight and launch them at speeds of up to 800 feet per second.
Best performance is achieved with bullets in the 105 - 130gr weight range, which maximize the muzzle (Kinetic) energy of the airgun and do so without a loud report.
The MAC 35 can handle bullets up to 190gr in weight offering high muzzle (Kinetic) energy and low noise, in fact the use of heavy weight bullets significantly reduces the noise on firing to a level similar to a spring powered airgun, as the long barrel facilitates conversion of more of the high pressure air to muzzle energy.
ALL test ammunition, (from 67-190 grains) produce report noise SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than that of a conventional PCP airgun of similar power.
Modern engineering of a totally new concept brings the dream of shooting realism at a realistic price.
FOR a brief introduction to the MAC35 in action please see (and subscribe) to our YouTube channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93oLoPvJuYs&list=TL7YvZ8k4gWeHjDJM0yuce8jQKOw2YCBos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93oLoPvJuYs&list=TL7YvZ8k4gWeHjDJM0yuce8jQKOw2YCBos)
Other projects in the pipeline include:
-MAC35P - Everything the MAC35 offers but in a pistol!!
-MAC30 .30 cal
-MAC25 .250 cal
-MAC41 0.410 cal shotgun
We will also be offering optional extras for the MAC35 with a magazine or feed belt.
Please follow us on twitter for new product updates @inovairtech
I look forward to hearing your thoughts and comments!
Many thanks for your attention
Paul Baxter
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Hi John
Sorry for the confusing post, the website is up and running with pictures and video link BUT 1) the posting didn't allow external links and 2) it will be updated significantly in the next week or so.
Regards
Paul
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I'm interested to see how the air cartridge is released. In theory each cart would have the same exact amount of air in it, so no shot curve. Interesting design and I can't say i've seen it before. Any chance of an explanation of how the firing mechanism works?
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I was wondering when someone would think of this. Looking forward to seeing more
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Same basic idea as the Brocock cartridge, but brought into the modern era.... https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/01/brocock-air-cartridges/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/01/brocock-air-cartridges/)
I certainly like the concept, the interesting part hasn't been given, and that is the performance.... You mention bullets from 65-145 gr. and velocities of "up to 800 fps", so logically that would lead me to assume that would be with the 65 gr. bullet, giving an energy of about 92 FPE.... You also state that the optimal bullet weight is in the range of 105-130 gr. to optimize the FPE (logical), but without stating what that achieved maximum FPE is.... I hope you will update this thread as soon as those figures become available....
That looks like a great list of future products, and I wish you all the best in the development and market of a unique product that may well find a niche in the airgunning community....
Bob
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And please say that you have selected a twist that is optimal to the bullet length!
It's good that you have selected 9mm. AZ is now legal to take a lot of game with .3 or higher ammo.
Actually, I am looking for a 9mm this year!
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From there website.
*1 - Test data obtained in real tests carried out during November and December 2013.
Ammunition used:
1) 67gr Round Balls, 2) 77.62gr JSP Pellets, 3) 105gr soft cast semi-wadcutters, 4) 115gr Soft cast Round nosed bullets, 5) 127gr, Soft cast Flat nose bullets, 6) 190gr Soft cast Round nosed bullets.
ACTUAL Muzzle velocities achieved using the test ammo were 500 f.p.s. to 750 f.p.s. with resultant muzzle energy in the range of 85-125 FPE. (Ft/Lbs). We are still testing ammunition to decide which works best in our rifles and so can make recommendations to our customers as to the best ways to extract the best performance from your chosen Inovairtech weapon.
Darn, why couldn't it be at least ~200 FPE. The thing looks like a 50 cal BMG , but isn't any more powerful than an Evanix at max power.
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Sounds like they need to add to the staff. Like maybe Bob and Lloyd to name a couple.
:)
And plenty of field testers that can give ideas for improvement. I'm not going to start throwing names out because I'd certainly miss a few most EXCELLENT technicians!!!
But GTA sure has some talent that could work magic with this platform.
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love the idea but I want something with a lil umpppp!I get 245 fpe out my recluse
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I see two methods to get more power.... use more than 4250 psi.... or make larger cartridges.... I would assume that all the air in the cartridge is dumped on each shot (but I could be very wrong about that).... leaving the cartridge empty after firing.... If this is the case, and assuming that the roughly 125 FPE on the website is the current limit, then making more air available for the shot would be the only alternative I can see....
If only a small portion of the air is released during the shot, then changing that volume would, of course change the power.... Ultimately, the FPE will be basically proportional to the quantity of air released during the shot....
Bob
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My 2 problems with this style gun is just that, its an AR look alike. It may be required due to its design but id love to see a more conventional, say Rem 700. The other concern is im pretty sure this style of gun would be regulated as just that, a powder burner with its self contained cartridge. Still I look forward to learning more about them.
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Another way to increase the power would be to change the gas used.
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Another way to increase the power would be to change the gas used.
Other than a combination of fine diesel-oil vapour in oxygen (which would do the trick) ;D, the only gas that would do better is probably helium, or hydrogen. Hydrogen is out the window for the same reason as the diesel-oil - so you're left with helium. Cartridges might leak, and would be pricey fills...
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My 2 problems with this style gun is just that, its an AR look alike. It may be required due to its design but id love to see a more conventional, say Rem 700. The other concern is im pretty sure this style of gun would be regulated as just that, a powder burner with its self contained cartridge. Still I look forward to learning more about them.
Looks more like a Barrett to me.
:)
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Someone has asked this before about this design, but I'll ask again in case the original poster knows...
What about dirt etc on the ejected cartridges? Is there any special wash or treatment that has to be done before re-using one of them after ejecting - so that fine dirt doesn't cause leaks in the HPA system?
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Another way to increase the power would be to change the gas used.
Other than a combination of fine diesel-oil vapour in oxygen (which would do the trick) ;D, the only gas that would do better is probably helium, or hydrogen. Hydrogen is out the window for the same reason as the diesel-oil - so you're left with helium. Cartridges might leak, and would be pricey fills...
Yes helium was the gas I was referring to I did not say it would be without some problems or that it would be cheap. I just stated that another gas would increase power I do not think it would be the best way to increase power just a possible way to increase power.
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Yes, using Helium would increase the power of any PCP, so you're back to the same comparison, as many current .357s are over 200 FPE (on air)....
Bob
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Here in the U.S., the federal government defines firearms as having (1) "Fixed ammunition" from which the projectile is propelled by an (2) "Explosive". Fixed ammunition is defined as the Bullet, Case, Primer and Powder ("Explosive") as a unitized cartridge. Explosives are defined as "a solid or liquid material, or a mixture of materials, which is in itself capable by chemical reaction of producing gas at such a temperature and pressure and at such a speed as to cause damage to its surroundings".
Muzzle loaders are not firearms under US federal law, only cartridge firearms. Air guns are not within the scope of the GCA 1968.
Interestingly, Nevada made no legal distinction between air guns and firearms until about 1992: up to that point, they were the same. The bottom line is this: Read your laws and know your laws.
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So then, this is not a firearm under Federal Law in the USA as there is no "Explosive" as defined in the law....
Bob
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sounds interesting. will be keeping an eye on this. good luck to you on your endeavor
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I really like the concept, looking forward to see how it developes
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///
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The 8cc seems perfect for a high power .25
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Thanks for the details, Paul.... A lot of conclusions can be drawn, once we know the volume of ~8cc.... You don't specify, but I assume ALL of the air is released during the shot, ie the MAC is empty after firing?....
Based on that assumption, here are a few of my conclusions.... First, the barrel volume, for a 28" long bore in .357 cal, is nearly 46cc.... That means that the 8cc of air released has to expand to 54cc before the bullet exits the muzzle..... Once expanded to fill the barrel, that results in a residual muzzle pressure of about 630 psi if you start at 4250.... That will help keep the muzzle blast to a minimum.... However, it also means that there is only 8cc of air available to produce the shot, and since the pressure will decline (starting as soon as the valve opens) throughout the shot (as there isn't a larger reservoir feeding the valve) that 8cc won't be able to produce as much power as 8cc of air at 4250 psi can.... The average pressure during the first (and most important) part of the shot will be less, and therefore, I would expect the efficiency to be less as well....
Please note, the above is not intended as any criticism of the design.... I am simply trying to understand how it works, and share those thoughts and expectations with others.... I would expect the overall power, at whatever pressure the MAC is filled to, to be similar to a conventional PCP using a much lower fill pressure.... This is counterbalanced, of course, by the other advantages of the design....
Bob
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If only higher than 125 FPE!!
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A quick back-of-the napkin calculation shows me that the performance is likely similar to a conventional PCP operating at about 60% of the pressure in the MAC.... the range should be between half and two-thirds.... What I mean is that with the MAC filled to 4250 psi I would expect the performance of a conventional PCP using 2200-2800 psi, and most likely around 2500.... My original 9mm Disco did about 115-125 FPE at between 2200-2500 psi, as an example....
Bob
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Due to popular demand, we have just added a MAC-Super to the product portfolio which will be 200 - 250FPE at the muzzle driving a .45 bullet.
Available early 2015
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Due to popular demand, we have just added a MAC-Super to the product portfolio which will be 200 - 250FPE at the muzzle driving a .457 bullet.
Available early 2015
Paul,
So , MAC super has increased air volume, correct?
I suggest a 9mm that can produce 175 to 200 FPE. That would be competitive to other bigbores on the market.
Regards
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Due to popular demand, we have just added a MAC-Super to the product portfolio which will be 200 - 250FPE at the muzzle driving a .457 bullet.
Available early 2015
might have to take another look at this then 8)
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With FPE like that...(200-250) stay away from the .457 dia!I would rec. a .452 or even a .429 (44 mag/special).Leave the .457 up to the 400+ fpe air rifles..In that cal. standard weight bullets are 300 gr +!!!Of course you can find them down to 150 gr in custom molds but it just doesnt make sence to me why some one would bump .005 of a inch when you can buy .452 in 155 gr-250 gr ALL day long.I had considered a while back of changing my Barrel on the 909s for that same reason.Couldnt do it though,,that gun barrel is too accurate to give up ;DThat was just my 2 cents!
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unless i missed it.....havent seen any mention of PRICES.
i would love to have one of these,but price is a deciding factor for alot of us.
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Thinkl he mentioned in the 900 range
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The gun itself may not be very expensive. I wonder what the "MACs" (cylinder/valve assemblies) will cost each. That could get expensive quick.
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Think he mentioned in chat the other night that the gun will come with 2 cylinders. Not sure how much more will cost.
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I would think that 10 cylinders would be the absolute minimum you would want, I mean after all, that is the equivalent of going on a deer hunt with half a box of cartridges.... The whole point is to avoid having to take an air tank or pump with you into the field....
Bob
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Hi Guys
Our eCommerce will replace the current website www.inovairtech.com (http://www.inovairtech.com) in about a weeks time. This will show prices for all of the different packages available together with many accessories.
The price for a MAC35 without scope is $890 then a range of prices up to $999 depending upon the scope selected. Included in every package is 2 MAC cartridges and 1 quick release fitting for the air tank.
Additional MAC cartridges are available in the following pack sizes:
3 @ $78.85
5 @ $118.68
10 @ $196.90
20 @ $374.78
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Hi Guys
Our eCommerce will replace the current website www.inovairtech.com (http://www.inovairtech.com) in about a weeks time. This will show prices for all of the different packages available together with many accessories.
The price for a MAC35 without scope is $890 then a range of prices up to $999 depending upon the scope selected. Included in every package is 2 MAC cartridges and 1 quick release fitting for the air tank.
Additional MAC cartridges are available in the following pack sizes:
3 @ $78.85
5 @ $118.68
10 @ $196.90
20 @ $374.78
Paul,
That is great to hear. I would consider that a very reasonable price. I look forward to seeing your new website.
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Cool, The rifle looks nice I justsaw the video for the 1st time.
Really hope this comes out, very interesting indeed
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I may look at the 25 cal.been wanting one and if its getting flat traj. then sign me up :D
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I have to ask, so I apologize if it's a stupid question :-[, but would hand pumping still be a option with these little things? I mean obviously 4500 psi is out of the equation but most hand pumps can go to the 3500 psi range. It seems like it would be pretty easy to pump those little cylinders up......
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great point Caleb :) :)
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Hand pumping would be fairly quick and easy I would think. The cool part is that the quick connect could be mounted directly to the pump thus minimizing the wasted pumps to fill the hose. For those that have shoeboxes, a small accumilator tank and the quick connect to that would result in a storage of quick air that would eplenish when drawn from. 8cc is pretty darn small in the realm of thing. As Bob said, that huge drop in psi is why the power is lower in comparison to a typical PCP. I imagine that the cartridge that could generate the 200+fpe that many have stated they want, would have to be about 60% larger than current design. Super cool conceprt, I really like it. I'd love to see some groups at ranges say 50-100yrd.
Bill
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me too, id love to see some 100yd groups with the .25 :)
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Let me know when I can get one.
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this very nice guns are NOT allowed, here in the Netherlands!
Cheers,
Hans.
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this very nice guns are NOT allowed, here in the Netherlands!
Cheers,
Hans.
Do you know, in what specific way they violate the law of the Netherlands?
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The cartridge system. The Brocock (A couple of years ago, same system), also on the list of no go in Holland. Looks like a REAL gun in the eyes of our law. :(
Cheers,
Hans.
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Just a brief update for everyone.
We have had a few delays with production so it looks like we will be launching the MAC35 in June 2014 now. Meanwhile we have been busy with several other designs (listed below), new videos on YouTube and Facebook.
Please subscribe and "like" to stay in touch with us.
Currently on the "Design Board":
MAC35P
Everything the MAC35 has to offer, but in a pistol!!
Giving you real hunting firepower from a pistol. 12" stainless shrouded barrel in 0.357 (9mm) calibre launches 105gr bullets at unheard of before velocities. Expected to be launched late 2014 the MAC35P will become the new standard in real air pistol firepower
MAC25R
Introducing the mini MAC as a revolver!!
Please check in regularly for updates on the progress of this exciting new platform expected to be launched 2014
MAC35SPORT
A traditional style hunting rifle. Chambering the MAC35 9mm .357 cal cartridge with a wooden or synthetic stock
Please check in regularly for updates on the progress of this exciting new platform expected to be launched 2014
MAC41S
Everything the MAC35 has to offer, but in a shotgun!!
Expected to be launched late 2014
Please check in regularly for updates on the progress of this exciting new platform
MAC30
The rifle platform in .30 calibre (7.62mm)
MAC25
The rifle platform in .250 calibre (6.35mm)
MAC35 with 5 shot magazine
Expected to be launched late 2014
MAC35 Rotary magazine
Expected to be launched late 2014
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Anyone wanting to get some trigger time with the Mac 35 head on down to the havasuairgunners.org fun shoot 8/2/2014 in Lake Havasu City, Arizona. We will have at least one on site and other big bore PCP air rifles for people to try out and it's free! Visit our website or Facebook for more info.
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how about some 100 yard groups...
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Got some trigger time with the MAC 35 today and must admit I am impressed. Spent yesterday shooting other big bore guns( Draggon claw, Recluse, Evanix Sniper .45, and Evanix Max ML .357) and was happy. But the consistent shot to shot velocity and repeatable accuracy of the MAC 35 was far above the previous days weapons. I can't wait to see what it can do once it is broken in.
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Stats, we want stats ! Also groups would be nice to see also. Please !!!!
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Interesting...
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Look on airgunweb's Facebook page for the first pics and a three shot one hole 10yard target shot by Ricks wife after he shot four shots to zero the scope. You will have to keep an eye out for airgunweb.com's review for numbers and exact groups. What I can say is it shows a lot of potential, but we have only shot it for a day so far. If anyone can make it to the lake Havasu airgunner shoot on this Saturday they can shoot it themselves and talk face to face with David the inventor.
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Man if only I saw this thread four days ago I would of been there , well maybe next month .
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Had an amazing fun shoot the MAC 35, it was a big hit with everyone. Check out YouTube for airgunweb's interview with the designer.
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I just really want to see some statistics: Weight of bullet used, Fill Pressure of cartridges, Number of cartridges shot, Velocity for each shot, Distance to target (preferably 50 yards or more), Center-to-center group size for 5-shot groups,...
:-)
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I just saw the video on Airgunweb. That system looks amazing. According to the company's website, cartridges can indeed be charged with a hand pump. That's a big plus.
I am wondering, can that big compensator be taken off the barrel so that other barrel devices can be added? Any plans to offer shrouds or LDCs?
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the pistol version would be pretty cool too
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I am waiting to see what the sporter looks like.
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Just some info for ya. I'll have the prototype in my hands for a few weeks. I should have it by next Friday. I have a nice bunch of bullets to try. Weights ranging from 100grns to 160grn. Inova has been using my bullets with great success and they say they are super accurate. I'll check in with photos and full report as soon as I get the gun from Tim. I did meet with Tim Smith and the owners of inova 2 weeks ago so they could show me the gun. Its an awesome airgun for sure the weight feels good. Action is smooth. Very well built gun
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RJ, you'll be a good one to give a full review with your experiance.
on a side note, do you cast .358 EPP/UG ?
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Not yet Manny. Where can I find those molds..
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http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-080B-D.png (http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-080B-D.png)
Bob
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Did they fall off the planet? Any further information?
Knife
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Any pics? Anyone? Anyone?
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RJ???
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Disappeared over the horizon ?
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However brilliant the design and well executed the manufacture and marketing, it is hard to fight the physics of a dump valve design.... They can be efficient at low power levels, but the amount of air used to produce the kind of power levels most of us seem to want in larger calibers, when you blow a large quantity of it out the muzzle after the bullet has left, simply can't be avoided.... There is a reason that the .35 cal version is in the 100-125 FPE power range while operating at 300 bar.... and less at lower pressures....
Bob
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Bob, you are certainly correct about the efficiency and physics of the dump valve but due the unique design that doesn't rely on a conventional reservoir, efficiency is a secondary concern. I guess if you are are hand pumping hundreds of cartridges, efficiency may be of higher importance. ;)
Its is a neat design and concept, I'm sure It calls to may shooters and collectors that are intrigued by the unusual. Like all designs it is bound both physical and logical limits. I see the MAC system as pellet shooting platform and don't see slugs as great performers due the limits of the cartridge volume and physical size.
The cool factor is very high and new and unusual technology definitely add value to the air gunning community. I hope they do well.
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Tom, I agree that the efficiency is a minor concern for how the gun is likely to be used.... I was more pointing out the power limitations which are governed by the relationship of the cartridge to barrel volume ratio.... Most of the comments in this thread were "I wish it had more power", and I was trying to address the reality of that.... I also wish them the best of luck....
Bob
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Sorry guys been busy and not shooting as much as I would like. The gun is awesome. I do still have it. It is a super accurate gun at 125fpe. It uses very little air. I've charged 25 times and the guage pressure dropped 100psi. The action is super smooth no jams no stuck cartridges. Valves are easy to rebuild if need be. A novice could do it in 5min or less. It loves jsbs and my cast bullets under 135grns. It has a match grade barrel. The gun is built with super tight tolerances. Anything I missed just ask.
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Sorry guys been busy and not shooting as much as I would like. The gun is awesome. I do still have it. It is a super accurate gun at 125fpe. It uses very little air. I've charged 25 times and the guage pressure dropped 100psi. The action is super smooth no jams no stuck cartridges. Valves are easy to rebuild if need be. A novice could do it in 5min or less. It loves jsbs and my cast bullets under 135grns. It has a match grade barrel. The gun is built with super tight tolerances. Anything I missed just ask.
I have my ears tuned to hear what a .257 will do! ;D
Knife
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Very very nice ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Sorry guys been busy and not shooting as much as I would like. The gun is awesome. I do still have it. It is a super accurate gun at 125fpe. It uses very little air. I've charged 25 times and the guage pressure dropped 100psi. The action is super smooth no jams no stuck cartridges. Valves are easy to rebuild if need be. A novice could do it in 5min or less. It loves jsbs and my cast bullets under 135grns. It has a match grade barrel. The gun is built with super tight tolerances. Anything I missed just ask.
I have my ears tuned to hear what a .257 will do! ;D
Knife
Numbers would be a lot lower on .257. Smaller the projectile the less surface area to push on.
125 fpe with 135 gr is only 646 fps.
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So, is this company making any guns??
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Was wondering if they have any for sale yet as well.
If they do I wlll increase my contribution to my toy fund.
Dave
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How many of these guns have been sold to date?
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Sorry guys been busy and not shooting as much as I would like. The gun is awesome. I do still have it. It is a super accurate gun at 125fpe. It uses very little air. I've charged 25 times and the guage pressure dropped 100psi. The action is super smooth no jams no stuck cartridges. Valves are easy to rebuild if need be. A novice could do it in 5min or less. It loves jsbs and my cast bullets under 135grns. It has a match grade barrel. The gun is built with super tight tolerances. Anything I missed just ask.
Sub MOA at an actual 100 yards? Actual chrony numbers from 10 or so shells (filled to what psi) would be nice.
John
ditto.
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Just a brief update for everyone.
We have had a few delays with production so it looks like we will be launching the MAC35 in June 2014 now. Meanwhile we have been busy with several other designs (listed below), new videos on YouTube and Facebook.
Please subscribe and "like" to stay in touch with us.
Currently on the "Design Board":
MAC35P
Everything the MAC35 has to offer, but in a pistol!!
Giving you real hunting firepower from a pistol. 12" stainless shrouded barrel in 0.357 (9mm) calibre launches 105gr bullets at unheard of before velocities. Expected to be launched late 2014 the MAC35P will become the new standard in real air pistol firepower
MAC25R
Introducing the mini MAC as a revolver!!
Please check in regularly for updates on the progress of this exciting new platform expected to be launched 2014
MAC35SPORT
A traditional style hunting rifle. Chambering the MAC35 9mm .357 cal cartridge with a wooden or synthetic stock
Please check in regularly for updates on the progress of this exciting new platform expected to be launched 2014
MAC41S
Everything the MAC35 has to offer, but in a shotgun!!
Expected to be launched late 2014
Please check in regularly for updates on the progress of this exciting new platform
MAC30
The rifle platform in .30 calibre (7.62mm)
MAC25
The rifle platform in .250 calibre (6.35mm)
MAC35 with 5 shot magazine
Expected to be launched late 2014
MAC35 Rotary magazine
Expected to be launched late 2014
Will the MAC30 also be available with a 5 shot magazine or rotary magazine? When is the expected release date for the MAC30? Also, any guestimated statistics as far as performance goes with the MAC30 in any particular grain/s? Will a threaded muzzle be an option for those that would rather attach a threaded LDC?
Thanks,
AGW.
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Y'all do check the Air gun gate for a thread there, follow all the links and a few "facts" are given.
John
It would be nice to know more facts on how the specified energy is being created...exactly.
What grain, what velocity, what fill pressure?
I would like to see some chrony digits from at the very least, a 5-shot string.
How about some more detailed accuracy statistics?
One thing though, in the few videos I have watched, not once do they fill above 3000-psi, but they do state that it can be filled to above 4000-psi, so I'm thinking filling to 4000-psi every time you shoot it is not a requirement.?.
I think in Rick Eustler's video, they are only filling to 3000-psi. I'll have to watch it again. In their own "long version" video, the again are not filling above 3000-psi.
Still, would be nice to know all of the basics and from all the research I've done, it seems like answering these questions are being avoided, or I'm just missing it.?.
Even a member or more on GTA has got to shoot it, but still no detailed data.?.
I personally am a fan of the product.
Would be nice to see a standard Rick Rustler type review done on this airgun with all the facts and no fluff.:-)
So, there's another company coming out with a "like" model?
Also, I agree, safety and common sense will be of the utmost importance when handling these cartridges, especially charged.
Thanks,
Al.
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If I'm understanding Bob's (rsterne) assessment of the amount of limited air in relation to the 28" barrel length, I wonder if shortening the barrel to 23" would help at all, or is that to easy?
Also, I agree with ezman, this company could certainly benefit with having the likes of Bob (rsterne) and a few other GTA Members on their development team, or as Field Testers, as I know that their feed back would be invaluable. :D
Thanks again,
Al.
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I thinks Inovairtech deserves a little slack to get themselves organized. Developing and producing any product is a huge undertaking and can drain countless resources, especially time and money. I don't know size of their company but due to the lack of big names being dropped they are most likely small in nature and may have other jobs to pay the bills.
Of course, it would be nice to hear from them on a regular basis.
Tom
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I thinks Inovairtech deserves a little slack to get themselves organized. Developing and producing any product is a huge undertaking and can drain countless resources, especially time and money. I don't know size of their company but due to the lack of big names being dropped they are most like small in nature and may have other jobs to pay the bills.
Of course, it would be nice to hear from them on a regular basis.
Tom
+1
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Shortening the barrel won't increase the velocity, just the opposite....
Bob
-
Inovairtech llc is on Facebook for those of you who are on there. I see they have been to some gun shows but nothing about production of availability.
-
I was thinking I would like to have the .257/MAC25, but I like casting my own ammo and the mold selection seems to be very limited when it comes to .257 ammo or boolit molds.
So, the .308/MAC30 is looking better for my personal wants and needs.
Would he nice to cast up to 3 different weights and types of .308 boolits for a MAC30 or .309 and size them down to .308.
All just a dream right now.
Thanks,
Al.
(AGW)
-
Al, let me add, if you are going to cast, there are no caliber/bullet availability issues. Companies like Accurate Molds are making custom molds for as low as 75$ which is truly amazing for us air gunners :) If you can put it on a napkin and have 75$, you're in business!
Tom
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Al, let me add, if you are going to cast, there are no caliber/bullet availability issues. Companies like Accurate Molds are making custom molds for as low as 75$ which is truly amazing for us air gunners :) If you can put it on a napkin and have 75$, you're in business!
Tom
Then the .257/MAC25 may be a possibilty now.
That's good to know, thanks for the lead. :D
Al.
(AGW)
-
Al, let me add, if you are going to cast, there are no caliber/bullet availability issues. Companies like Accurate Molds are making custom molds for as low as 75$ which is truly amazing for us air gunners :) If you can put it on a napkin and have 75$, you're in business!
Tom
Then the .257/MAC25 may be a possibilty now.
That's good to know, thanks for the lead. :D
Al.
(AGW)
Accurate may not make molds smaller than 30 cal. but I'm sure there must be others who will.
Tom
-
Lots of molds for the .250 cal out there, I think this gun in .25 would be very nice
-
It's also .357. Airgunweb did a review info about it.
http://youtu.be/rzoOqP7Gt1Y?list=UUfl7QjSqri7rbGeZAidKamg (http://youtu.be/rzoOqP7Gt1Y?list=UUfl7QjSqri7rbGeZAidKamg)
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It's also .357. Airgunweb did a review info about it.
http://youtu.be/rzoOqP7Gt1Y?list=UUfl7QjSqri7rbGeZAidKamg (http://youtu.be/rzoOqP7Gt1Y?list=UUfl7QjSqri7rbGeZAidKamg)
We know the current model is a .357. Were talking about the next model or caliber, which will be the MAC25/.257. After that, they're going to introduce a the MAC30/.308.
Have seen Rick's video and look forward to his "facts, no fluff" review.:-)
Thanks,
Al.
(AGW)
-
According to INVT, the bore diameter will be .250 and the groove diameter will be .257 on the MAC25.
Thanks,
Al.
(AGW)
-
Accurate won't make molds smaller than .30 cal....
Bob
-
Found this list of available .257 molds in various weights, shapes and sizes:
.257 BOOLIT MOLDS:
RCBS - http://www.rcbs.com/ (http://www.rcbs.com/)
LYMAN (IDEAL) - http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/home/ (http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/home/)
NOE - http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php? (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?) ... k41t63lb31
HOCH - http://hochmoulds.com/index-1.htm (http://hochmoulds.com/index-1.htm)
LBT MOLDS (custom molds available) - http://lbtmoulds.com/index.shtml (http://lbtmoulds.com/index.shtml)
Actually just found several cool articles about the .257 airgun boolits in reference to their shape, weight, size, accuracy and stuff like that. Also found a lot of pictures of cast .257 airgun boolits, pretty cool.
From what I understand, they can be made anywhere from 60-grains up to around 120-grains.
It appears that using the softest lead possible is important, which is great as I already have 5-pounds of 99% pure lead ingots.
Man, I thought that .257 molds were going to be very hard to find, to my relief, I was wrong.
I will wait to see what their test results show when they test various .257 boolits for their .257/MAC25 and then go from there before deciding on what shape, length and weight/s might be best for the .257/MAC25.
Pretty interesting what these .257 calibers are capable of as far as long range shooting goes...if the fps is at least 900-fps to 1130-fps, according to the owner of the Talondor. I think he's shooting 74-grain (LYMAN 257420 Mold) boolits.
Thanks,
Al.
(AGW)
-
.257 won't work in this gun. The fps will be way to low. The fps is way low for .357. The smaller the bullet the harder it is to make fps. It's all about surface area for the air to push on.
I'm the one that gets the power out of the condors. It takes air to make power and the cartridge is just to small.
-
.257 won't work in this gun. The fps will be way to low. The fps is way low for .357. The smaller the bullet the harder it is to make fps. It's all about surface area for the air to push on.
I'm the one that gets the power out of the condors. It takes air to make power and the cartridge is just to small.
Sounds interesting, but it seems the lack of air volume is more the issue than the surface of the boolits, no? I'm asking because a airgun with dual caliber capabilities can push a smaller projectile faster than a larger one.
Bob (rsterne) seems to think that if that could figure out how to clip the air instead of dumping it all, that it might help...based on what he knows about the MAC's cartridges. I do understand the logic of not having a bulk amount of air though and I wonder if what Bob is suggesting would help...if they hold enough air for his theory to work.
I did send a request asking how much air the cartridges do hold and will post answer just as soon as I get one. I was asking because I wanted to have a look at some possible field carry re-fill buddy bottles.
Thanks for the input,
Al.
(AGW)
-
...if they hold enough air for his theory to work.
Without knowing the volume we can't be sure, but Rick Eustler said about 10cc, which is less than 1/10 cc per FPE, so dumping the air as they are doing now is the only logical solution.... The comment I made about "clipping the air" (using timed dwell) referred to using a much larger reservoir, which is not part of this design....
Yes, the same power plant in a dual-caliber gun gets more velocity with the smaller caliber, but more FPE with the larger caliber.... Expecting a 120 FPE gun in .357 to produce that in .257 is, IMO, extremely unlikely.... more like 80-85 FPE.... However, I'm working with so many assumptions I could be wayyyyyyyy off....
Bob
-
I would like to make it clear that I in know way expect that the .257/MAC25R will match the Talondor's performance, unless INVT comes up with something or makes some changes that none of us are aware of.
I would be very happy if the .257/MAC25R could push any .257 boolits at 900+fps and it would not bother me at all if it took 60-grain cast boolits to get it done.
Let's just hope that the R&D Team at INVT are paying close attention to what the Wise Men are saying/writing and that they get it figured out.:-)
Respectfully,
Al.
(AGW)
-
...if they hold enough air for his theory to work.
Without knowing the volume we can't be sure, but Rick Eustler said about 10cc, which is less than 1/10 cc per FPE, so dumping the air as they are doing now is the only logical solution.... The comment I made about "clipping the air" (using timed dwell) referred to using a much larger reservoir, which is not part of this design....
Yes, the same power plant in a dual-caliber gun gets more velocity with the smaller caliber, but more FPE with the larger caliber.... Expecting a 120 FPE gun in .357 to produce that in .257 is, IMO, extremely unlikely.... more like 80-85 FPE.... However, I'm working with so many assumptions I could be wayyyyyyyy off....
Bob
I personally do not expect a higher fpe from a smaller caliber myself. Its the fps in a 60g-thru-69g boolit that interest me the most.
If I wanted higher fpe, I'd just take the .357/MAC35R, but the sub 750-fps does not do it for me, nor does the sub 160-fpe in such a caliber.
From what I've learned from you (Bob) and a few others, I've given up on having a high fpe and have gone straight for the higher fps instead, which is why I'm looking at the .257/MAC25R now.
I cannot see INVT releasing a .257 shooting sub 90-grain boolits at less than 900-fps, but like you, I could be wrong and hope that I am. Only time will tell.
Bob, what does 10cc mean in ci?
Respectfully,
Al.
(AGW)
[EDIT]: Bob, did the conversion and it's 0.61024ci. My guess is that a 48ci bottle would fill about 75 of those MACs, possibly more if you're only filling to 200-bar/3000-psi.?.
-
900 fps with a 60 gr. bullet is 108 FPE.... IMO a stretch in .257 cal for a gun rated at 120 FPE in .357 cal....
I used Lloyd's calculator.... http://www.calc.sikes.us/2/index.php (http://www.calc.sikes.us/2/index.php) .... and only get 40 fills to 3000 psi from 500 psi (you can't use zero).... That means you could fill about 33 cartridges to 3000 psi from a 48 CI / 4500 psi tank....
Bob
-
I'm not talking fpe I'm talking fps.
Perfect example is when Will take a big bore Korean gun and puts a .257 barrel on one. It is shooting in the low to mid 800's if I remember right. When it was shooting faster with the heavier larger caliber.
-
I'm not talking fpe I'm talking fps.
Perfect example is when Will take a big bore Korean gun and puts a .257 barrel on one. It is shooting in the low to mid 800's if I remember right. When it was shooting faster with the heavier larger caliber.
I know you're talking fps, I was addressing Bob about the fpe. What you're stating is very interesting, definitely deserves some research.
I'm currently trying to figure out why in all of the published tests results, the fill pressure is only 3000-psi, when it can be filled to 4500-psi...per Rick's video on YouTube.
Thanks,
Al.
(AGW)
-
Probably because to fill to 4500 psi you need a tank that holds more than that to fill from.... It's a matter of being practical.... You can't fill to 4500 with a stirrup pump, or from a 4500 psi tank....
Bob
-
I'm not talking fpe I'm talking fps.
Perfect example is when Will take a big bore Korean gun and puts a .257 barrel on one. It is shooting in the low to mid 800's if I remember right. When it was shooting faster with the heavier larger caliber.
heavier, but significantly lower sectional density. more area per weight...so cut .257 sectional density to that of .357 pellets and you'll be able to get speed, though at the cost of BC. Both Bob and I have gotten +100 FPE from .22 cal with boolits of adequate weight...and Bob at larger calibers too.
There was at least one attempt to put a .257 barrel on an FX Boss and the results were scaled down FPE delivery, and the 30 cal pellet barrel got put back on. That one will push 46 gr into the upper 800's to the tune of 80 FPE...but a rifled .257 barrel shooting heavier slugs did not make that much energy.
It is a neat trick, and just because I don't think I'll spend my money on it does not mean nobody else will...LOL
cheers,
Douglas
-
I personally do not expect a higher fpe from a smaller caliber myself.
I cannot see INVT releasing a .257 shooting sub 90-grain boolits at less than 900-fps, but like you, I could be wrong and hope that I am. Only time will tell.
Respectfully,
Al.
(AGW)
90 gr at 900 fpe is 161 fpe. That will never happen. A condor will not even come close to that with out one of my valves. Condor pushes 74 gr around 850 fps if your lucky.
-
At the present time, this is all just speculation, of course.... Once (if) INVT have a production run, sell some guns, and they are tested thoroughly, we will have proof of what they can do.... We should also know at that point if the cartidges are sealed up or can be disassembled, analyzed, and possibly improved to up the FPE at a given pressure....
Once all that is done, then we can play this guessing game about what a smaller (or larger) caliber might do based on facts....
Bob
-
At the present time, this is all just speculation, of course.... Once (if) INVT have a production run, sell some guns, and they are tested thoroughly, we will have proof of what they can do.... We should also know at that point if the cartidges are sealed up or can be disassembled, analyzed, and possibly improved to up the FPE at a given pressure....
Once all that is done, then we can play this guessing game about what a smaller (or larger) caliber might do based on facts....
Bob
I concur.:-)
-
I personally do not expect a higher fpe from a smaller caliber myself.
I cannot see INVT releasing a .257 shooting sub 90-grain boolits at less than 900-fps, but like you, I could be wrong and hope that I am. Only time will tell.
Respectfully,
Al.
(AGW)
90 gr at 900 fpe is 161 fpe. That will never happen. A condor will not even come close to that with out one of my valves. Condor pushes 74 gr around 850 fps if your lucky.
I said "sub" 90-grain. Like waaay sub. Again, something along the lines of 60-something grains. I assure that I realize the MAC will not move a 90-grain anywhere close to 900-fps.
Basically, I'm with Bob's last post at this point.
Sounds like you have quite the Condor though. :D
Thanks,
Al.
(AGW)
-
Ok let's wait and see.
Another example is I took my regulated .25 tank and changed out the stem so it would work for my .30 build. I didn't have a tank setup yet for it.
.25 shoots .25.4 gr right around 940 fps.
On the .30 it shot 45 gr at 920 fps. I shimed it down to shot 905.
Yes the barrel is 6" longer on the .30. But there is also a 20 gr difference in weight. Almost double
Yes I have a .257 condor that makes 200 fpe on 3000 psi and 244 fpe on 4000 psi.
I normally shoot 74 gr 257420 at 1070 fps. I have a NOE modified mold that drops 67 gr HP. They shoot around 1100 fps with excellent accuracy.
-
Ok let's wait and see.
Another example is I took my regulated .25 tank and changed out the stem so it would work for my .30 build. I didn't have a tank setup yet for it.
.25 shoots .25.4 gr right around 940 fps.
On the .30 it shot 45 gr at 920 fps. I shimed it down to shot 905.
Yes the barrel is 6" longer on the .30. But there is also a 20 gr difference in weight. Almost double
Yes I have a .257 condor that makes 200 fpe on 3000 psi and 244 fpe on 4000 psi.
I normally shoot 74 gr 257420 at 1070 fps. I have a NOE modified mold that drops 67 gr HP. They shoot around 1100 fps with excellent accuracy.
Whee can I see pictures of your .257 molds/boolits, as well as the awesome Condor?
Thanks,
Al.
(AGW)
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Here is what I have in .257
The .257 is really amazing in the condor when done right. Out of the 4 condors I have I would have to say the .257 is the one that impresses me the most. .30 is just as impressive but as a pellet shooter.
I went prairie dog hunting last month. I shot one at 190 yds and one at 292 yds with the .257.
I also have a .308. It is a little on the violent side because of the recoil. Works good but has to be held right to keep it from jumping.
-
Here is what I have in .257
The .257 is really amazing in the condor when done right. Out of the 4 condors I have I would have to say the .257 is the one that impresses me the most. .30 is just as impressive but as a pellet shooter.
I went prairie dog hunting last month. I shot one at 190 yds and one at 292 yds with the .257.
I also have a .308. It is a little on the violent side because of the recoil. Works good but has to be held right to keep it from jumping.
Man, that's awesome stuff!
Thanks for sharing. :D
Really impressive to say the least,
Al.
(AGW)
-
Doug, what is your favourite / most accurate bullet in .257?....
Bob
-
It's hard to beat the Lyman 257420 regular or HP. I shoot the regular the most. I have shot thousands of them. The 190 yd prairie dog was a HP and I think the 292 yd was also.
I just started shooting the NOE 67 gr HP. It seems to do just as good as both lymans. It sure makes a smack at a 100 yds with the large hole it has in it.
I haven't been able to go and shoot thru the chrony ant 100 yds yet. I was working out of town this whole week. Might be able to this weekend but if not next weekend for sure.
-
Those FPE numbers are just about in proportion to the calibers.... not at all that unusual for one powerplant with a caliber change.... The POTENTIAL FPE goes up by the square of the caliber (ie by the area of the bore), but that requires complete scaling up of the gun as well....
Bob
-
It's hard to beat the Lyman 257420 regular or HP. I shoot the regular the most. I have shot thousands of them. The 190 yd prairie dog was a HP and I think the 292 yd was also.
I just started shooting the NOE 67 gr HP. It seems to do just as good as both lymans. It sure makes a smack at a 100 yds with the large hole it has in it.
I haven't been able to go and shoot thru the chrony ant 100 yds yet. I was working out of town this whole week. Might be able to this weekend but if not next weekend for sure.
Doug,
Which sub 70-grain .257 molds do you recommend...preferably regular nosed, but HP is o.k. too.
Affordability is always a bonus.
Thanks,
Al.
(AGW)
-
It's hard to beat the Lyman 257420 regular or HP. I shoot the regular the most. I have shot thousands of them. The 190 yd prairie dog was a HP and I think the 292 yd was also.
I just started shooting the NOE 67 gr HP. It seems to do just as good as both lymans. It sure makes a smack at a 100 yds with the large hole it has in it.
I haven't been able to go and shoot thru the chrony ant 100 yds yet. I was working out of town this whole week. Might be able to this weekend but if not next weekend for sure.
Doug,
My guess is that the only way to get the NOE down to 67g is by removing the lead when making it a HP?
Looks like the Lyman 257420 65g mold makes the lightest .257 boolits without having to make them HP boolits.
All the other companies in the links listed on the previous page make .257 boolit molds that make book its heavier than I care for at this point.
Thanks again,
Al.
(AGW)
-
Al, the Lyman 257420 casts at about 74 gr. in pure lead (as a solid), not the 65 gr. it is advertised at.... It shoots well in many .257 cal airguns....
Bob
-
Yeah the only way to get lighter is to deck the mold. That is what was done to the NOE mold. It was a 85 gr bullet and now a 71 gr.
I know of one guy on the TAG forum that has a 58 gr Lyman. He is the one that decked the NOE mold. I talked to NOE and they will make a new mold just like what I have if I send them a couple of samples. I'm going to because it shoots so good and this is a borrowed mold.
-
Not sure I'd want to deck the Lyman 257420, it would eliminate the gas check recess.... I think that is one of the reasons it shoots so well....
Bob
-
Al, the Lyman 257420 casts at about 74 gr. in pure lead (as a solid), not the 65 gr. it is advertised at.... It shoots well in many .257 cal airguns....
Bob
As I mentioned before, based on all that I have learned about air-gun boolits, the closest you can get to pure lead the better, so yes, these will be 74-grains as you stated. I can live with that and hope that the MAC25R can deliver.
Just finished checking out all of the links I posted on the previous page of .257 mold sources and here's what I learned:
Hoch: Put it on paper and they will make it, but it will cost you, as is to be expected for quality custom craftsmanship I guess. They will make single, double, quad, etc molds.
Lyman: If I'm not mistaken, Lyman offers the lightest and one of the more popular .257 boolits with the 257420 mold and the price is reasonable. Pretty sure it is a 2 cavity mold.
RCBS: If I am reading the site correctly, they offer a 50-grain .257. The code is .25-50-RN 251, the price is 126.95 and it does not say how many the mold makes or what exactly is available...no pictures either.
NOE: They have a few to choose from in the lowest I could find of 80-grains. Prices are reasonable and it looks like you can get 2 and 4 cavity molds. I guess the only way to make these lighter is to go HP or not use 99% pure lerad, and I am pretty sure we want to use the soft stuff.
LBT: Looks like the lightest one they make in .257 is 80-grain, cost is above the $100.00 mark and selection looks good. They also offer multiple cavity molds.
As mentioned before, for me it may have to be the Lyman 74-grain 257420: http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/select-mould-rifle.php?styleRef=cat02#anc (http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/select-mould-rifle.php?styleRef=cat02#anc)
Or
If I could get a mold that makes the NOE 67-grain HP boolits, that would be nice too. I will have to ask Doug where those molds are available at.
I also need to find out the details about the RCBS one that I think is a 50-grain: http://shop.rcbs.com/Products/Bullet-Casting/Bullet-Moulds.aspx (http://shop.rcbs.com/Products/Bullet-Casting/Bullet-Moulds.aspx)
.25-50-RN 251
Will get it all figured out at some point.
Thanks Bob,
Al.
(AGW)
-
Yeah the only way to get lighter is to deck the mold. That is what was done to the NOE mold. It was a 85 gr bullet and now a 71 gr.
I know of one guy on the TAG forum that has a 58 gr Lyman. He is the one that decked the NOE mold. I talked to NOE and they will make a new mold just like what I have if I send them a couple of samples. I'm going to because it shoots so good and this is a borrowed mold.
Lots of options out there, that's for sure Doug, thanks for sharing that information and please keep us posted as to the progress of you having NOE do that decking for you.
Bob, I'm just hoping the MAC25R will like the Lyman 257420 just the way it is.
Thanks,
Al.
(AGW)
-
http://www.jdsairman.com/TanksRegs.html (http://www.jdsairman.com/TanksRegs.html)
48 cu. in. 3000psi input / 1000psi to 3000psi regulated output = $107.00
Was thinking this would make a great compact field carry re-fill bottle for the MACs. Should get 70+ fills from this compact bottler.
I would much rather be filling to the max rating of 4500-psi for better performance though, so I have got to get that figured out too.
Thanks,
Al.
(WGA)
-
The rcbs is a .251 and not .257.
I will get a couple of samples to NOE so they can make the 71 gr bullet I have. You can lose another drive band and it would be lighter also.
-
The RCBS is a .25 ACP bullet, it is a round nose, and is too small for a .257 cal barrel.... It can be used in .250 cal airgun (pellet) barrels, however.... I have one, it casts at just under 53 gr. in pure lead, and the hollowpoint version is just over 46 gr.... My .250 cal, 52 gr. Bob's Boattail from LBT shoots better.... the mold number is #25-52-BST.... I have plans for a 63 gr. version in .257 cal, same bullet, just longer, and sized for the .257 size barrels.... It will require a 14" twist barrel, however, which is available from TJ's....
Bob
-
Al, you can't fill to 3000 psi from a 3000 psi tank.... A 48 CI / 4500 psi tank will give you about 33 fills of a 10cc cartridge to 3000 psi, starting from zero....
Bob
-
The rcbs is a .251 and not .257.
I will get a couple of samples to NOE so they can make the 71 gr bullet I have. You can lose another drive band and it would be lighter also.
Will they not make the mold for you/us so that it makes 71-grain boolits?
Thanks,
Al.
(AGW)
-
Al, you can't fill to 3000 psi from a 3000 psi tank.... A 48 CI / 4500 psi tank will give you about 33 fills of a 10cc cartridge to 3000 psi, starting from zero....
Bob
I see now, o.k., thanks! :D
Think I might better get this one instead for more re-fills: 62 cu. in. 3000psi input / 1000psi to 3000psi regulated output
(with the 4500-psi filling abilities so that I can fill the 10cc MACs to 3000-psi)
Thanks,
Al.
(AGW)
[EDIT]: Thinking the 62ci might be to big for field carry use, so I would just stick with the 48ci bottle instead...with the abilities to fill the 10cc MACs to 3000-psi.)
-
The RCBS is a .25 ACP bullet, it is a round nose, and is too small for a .257 cal barrel.... It can be used in .250 cal airgun (pellet) barrels, however.... I have one, it casts at just under 53 gr. in pure lead, and the hollowpoint version is just over 46 gr.... My .250 cal, 52 gr. Bob's Boattail from LBT shoots better.... the mold number is #25-52-BST.... I have plans for a 63 gr. version in .257 cal, same bullet, just longer, and sized for the .257 size barrels.... It will require a 14" twist barrel, however, which is available from TJ's....
Bob
Let's just hope that the MAC25R stock barrel will like them too. :D
Al.
(AGW)
-
The rcbs is a .251 and not .257.
I will get a couple of samples to NOE so they can make the 71 gr bullet I have. You can lose another drive band and it would be lighter also.
Will they not make the mold for you/us so that it makes 71-grain boolits?
Thanks
Al.
(AGW)
Yes they will make the mold at 71 gr but they need a sample to get the length right. They just make it shorter by not putting the cutter as deep. Will get some in the mail.
-
The rcbs is a .251 and not .257.
I will get a couple of samples to NOE so they can make the 71 gr bullet I have. You can lose another drive band and it would be lighter also.
Will they not make the mold for you/us so that it makes 71-grain boolits?
Thanks
Al.
(AGW)
Yes they will make the mold at 71 gr but they need a sample to get the length right. They just make it shorter by not putting the cutter as deep. Will get some in the mail.
That's extremely awesome!
Thank you very much. :D
So, now I have 2 possible lighter in weight .257 boolit molds to choose from or get and hopefully Bob's will be a third.
Respectfully,
Al.
(AGW)
-
Here is what I have in .257
The .257 is really amazing in the condor when done right. Out of the 4 condors I have I would have to say the .257 is the one that impresses me the most. .30 is just as impressive but as a pellet shooter.
I went prairie dog hunting last month. I shot one at 190 yds and one at 292 yds with the .257.
I also have a .308. It is a little on the violent side because of the recoil. Works good but has to be held right to keep it from jumping.
Any chance of getting the specs and mods on your .257?
Joe
-
It is all custom. All I use from AF is the frame, fore grip, and 2 of the 3 trigger pieces.
32" TJ's 1:14 .257 machined to .374" at the breech
Large barrel bushing that fit barrel and frame perfect
My custom valve
150 gram hammer. Hammer cocks the gun
13 lb hammer spring
super sear from AoA
62 ci tank, adapter with fill nipple and gauge
Custom trigger guard and AR-15 grip
5 piece all aluminum shroud supporting barrel at the frame end and end of barrel
Anything else? The gun is pretty quiet. Mostly mechanical sound now.
-
It is all custom. All I use from AF is the frame, fore grip, and 2 of the 3 trigger pieces.
32" TJ's 1:14 .257 machined to .374" at the breech
Large barrel bushing that fit barrel and frame perfect
My custom valve
150 gram hammer. Hammer cocks the gun
13 lb hammer spring
super sear from AoA
62 ci tank, adapter with fill nipple and gauge
Custom trigger guard and AR-15 grip
5 piece all aluminum shroud supporting barrel at the frame end and end of barrel
Anything else? The gun is pretty quiet. Mostly mechanical sound now.
"Hammer cocks the gun".
Is that the slotted part on the right side, you can see a spring in the slot or groove just forward of where you would normally cock and load an AF?
Looks preety cool.
Thanks,
Al.
-
Yes
It makes it so you can use aluminum breech also. The breech is just open and close. The .308 has aluminum breech and the .257 will sooner or later.
Next is to make them all like my .30. Replace the scope rail and cap the frame.
-
Thanks...that is a nice looking AF and those are some serious mods.
Joe
-
Thanks
The .30 is really accurate out to 125 yds. Not sure how much all the stiffening plays in how good it shoots. It shot under a dime size group at 50 yds the time I took it to the range.
.257 without shot a 100 yds under a dime size. So hopefully that will improve when all is done.
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Thanks
The .30 is really accurate out to 125 yds. Not sure how much all the stiffening plays in how good it shoots. It shot under a dime size group at 50 yds the time I took it to the range.
.257 without shot a 100 yds under a dime size. So hopefully that will improve when all is done.
Where did you buy the bottles from and what valves are you using?
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Back to the MAC35 for a quick second:
Just watched a few videos on the Evanix 9mm Tactical and based on some numbers crunching, the MAC35 is hanging right in there with it, if not better.
Thanks,
Al.
(AGW)
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The Evanix platform is at the lower end of the big bore power spectrum (I don't consider the 9mm RAW and Edgun true bigbores). I think most wish for more out of both the Evanix and MAC.
Tom
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The Evanix platform is at the lower end of the big bore power spectrum (I don't consider the 9mm RAW and Edgun true bigbores). I think most wish for more out of both the Evanix and MAC.
Tom
When I win the lottery, I'm going to implore the likes of Bob/rsterne for his "encyclopedia of knowledge", Jason B./JTB530 for his "mechanical know-how", Jason N./nervoustrigger for his " meticulous engineering know how", Stalwart for his "creative genius", Mike Melick for his "years of wisdom and endless amounts of other talents and skills", PIPERMAN simply because of what he did to that BAM 30-1, Bob/CharlieDaTuna for his..."need I say why...", Tofazfou and dyotat100 for their "high powered know-how/work they have done to create some extremely powerful big-bores...diy", and a panel of advisors like Gene, D Ez, PakProtector and a few others. George/Silent_Airman would lead a team of field testers.
Why?
To develop the "Ultimate Air-Gun" and in an effort to try...and I stress the word try...to make all types of shooters happy; it would be offered in 3 different variants and up to 4 different calibers.
Try and picture that air-gun if you can.:-)
Sorry, just me dreaming again. ::)
In reference to the Evanix big bores and MAC35..."lacking" or leaving folks with "much more to be desired", as far as performace goes...after what I have thus far learned about the abilities of some other .257 air-guns out there; if the .257/MAC25R can propel a .257 boolit, regardless of weight to at least 825+fps, I'll be happy myself. :D
Thanks for the input Tom, as I was honestly a bit shocked to see the Evanix Tactical .357 not providing better performance numbers, regardless of how much the boolits/pellets being tested weighed.
Man, I've got to start swaging...spending to much time with this tablet in my hand!
:o
Respectfully,
Al.
(AGW)
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The Evanix platform is at the lower end of the big bore power spectrum (I don't consider the 9mm RAW and Edgun true bigbores). I think most wish for more out of both the Evanix and MAC.
Tom
I'm hurt, Tom. :'( What did my Sniper ever do to you? Meanie!! ;)
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LMBO...there is no 'One Rifle' solution. I wish there were more overlap, but there isn't. Say for example, I want to plug a squirrel in a tree...can't go pointing a 200 FPE, .257 up in the air to get it; the round will travel too far. If I want to target shoot at long range( 100+ yards )a pellet is too sensitive to wind( more like wee breezes ). Even a 90 FPE .224 boolit wants to travel too far...pellets are useful, make no mistake, but IMO you need several rifles, and kow what you can do with each...:)
cheers,
Douglas
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The Evanix platform is at the lower end of the big bore power spectrum (I don't consider the 9mm RAW and Edgun true bigbores). I think most wish for more out of both the Evanix and MAC.
Tom
I'm hurt, Tom. :'( What did my Sniper ever do to you? Meanie!! ;)
LOL, Wasn't my intent to give your Sniper a complex........
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LMBO...there is no 'One Rifle' solution. I wish there were more overlap, but there isn't. Say for example, I want to plug a squirrel in a tree...can't go pointing a 200 FPE, .257 up in the air to get it; the round will travel too far. If I want to target shoot at long range( 100+ yards )a pellet is too sensitive to wind( more like wee breezes ). Even a 90 FPE .224 boolit wants to travel too far...pellets are useful, make no mistake, but IMO you need several rifles, and kow what you can do with each...:)
cheers,
Douglas
How about this..... Not a dual caliber under/over but a pellet/slug of the same caliber. :)
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The Evanix platform is at the lower end of the big bore power spectrum (I don't consider the 9mm RAW and Edgun true bigbores). I think most wish for more out of both the Evanix and MAC.
Tom
I'm hurt, Tom. :'( What did my Sniper ever do to you? Meanie!! ;)
Listen,
I do not remember the caliber, weight or fps that your Evanix Tactical was shooting that day at out last Fun-Shoot, but what I do remember is how hard it was smacking the steel targets set-up at 50-yards!
I also remember the big bore boolits turning into extremely thin discs of lead from the impact with the steel targets at 50-yds!
For it to be on the "lower end" in reference to power in a big-bore, I found it to be an absolute beast!
Thanks again for allowing me to shoot it. :D
Al.
(AGW)
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Thanks
The .30 is really accurate out to 125 yds. Not sure how much all the stiffening plays in how good it shoots. It shot under a dime size group at 50 yds the time I took it to the range.
.257 without shot a 100 yds under a dime size. So hopefully that will improve when all is done.
Where did you buy the bottles from and what valves are you using?
The valves I use are the custom ones I make. Tanks are 62 ci guerrilla. I thing only the ninjas are available now.
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The Evanix platform is at the lower end of the big bore power spectrum (I don't consider the 9mm RAW and Edgun true bigbores). I think most wish for more out of both the Evanix and MAC.
Tom
I'm hurt, Tom. :'( What did my Sniper ever do to you? Meanie!! ;)
Listen,
I do not remember the caliber, weight or fps that your Evanix Tactical was shooting that day at out last Fun-Shoot, but what I do remember is how hard it was smacking the steel targets set-up at 50-yards!
I also remember the big bore boolits turning into extremely thin discs of lead from the impact with the steel targets at 50-yds!
For it to be on the "lower end" in reference to power in a big-bore, I found it to be an absolute beast!
Thanks again for allowing me to shoot it. :D
Al.
(AGW)
Thank you, AGW
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=3213)
I don't think THIS is lower end... ::) ;D
(Yes, that's a quarter!)
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"I don't think THIS is lower end... "
Terry/dv8eod
I would have to agree with you on that Buddy! :D
Glad pictures of those discs of lead were taken.
You are welcome and thanks again,
Al.
(AGW)
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Dyotat wrote, "Yeah the only way to get lighter is to deck the mold. That is what was done to the NOE mold. It was a 85 gr bullet and now a 71 gr.
I know of one guy on the TAG forum that has a 58 gr Lyman. He is the one that decked the NOE mold. I talked to NOE and they will make a new mold just like what I have if I send them a couple of samples. I'm going to because it shoots so good and this is a borrowed mold".
I milled (decked), the NOE mold for Tof. a couple of months back. The NOE that I use is decked to throw 20/1 lead/tin at 60 grains and is a very accurate combination.
I have had less luck with the Lyman 257420 decked to throw them at 54-56 grains. Still testing the Lyman.
KnifeMaker
(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r294/mlovett_photo/DSC01948_zps97672a76.jpg) (http://s147.photobucket.com/user/mlovett_photo/media/DSC01948_zps97672a76.jpg.html)
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I have a question about the 80 gr. NOE decked to a 60 gr.... What is the base of the bullet like?.... Is it flush with the back of a driving band, or cut off so that the diameter at the base is smaller, like on a gas-check bullet?....Would you have a photo of the base, or a straight side view?....
Bob
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I have a question about the 80 gr. NOE decked to a 60 gr.... What is the base of the bullet like?.... Is it flush with the back of a driving band, or cut off so that the diameter at the base is smaller, like on a gas-check bullet?....Would you have a photo of the base, or a straight side view?....
Bob
I'd like to see that too Bob.
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Here it is. This is the 67 gr HP.
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That explains (IMO) why it shoots well, the part that leaves the crown (the last drive band) is perfectly molded with no chance for distortion from the sprue plate.... The Lyman 257420 has the same feature because of the shoulder for the gas check.... and it also shoots well....
Bob
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The 60 gr. NOE is exactly the same. Just the last driving band showing on Doug's pic is removed. this gives it what still looks like a gas-check area, and cuts clean. I did make a new spru plate for it with smaller holes. It cuts much easier, and leaves a very flat and clean base.
When Cedric and I were first talking abut doing this, it was our thought that the base, left looking a bit like a Gas-Check area, might possibly as sort of a mini Boat Tail. Hoping it could help down range some.
Now that I have a longer barrel, I may deck another 80 gr. NOE to bring up the weight to match the one Doug and Cedric are now shooting.
I would like to send one of them out next year to Eric and have his Hollow point service done to the mold.
Doug, I can't remember now what the NOE weighed after the decking. What does it come out to?
Knife
Knife
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The 60 gr. NOE is exactly the same. Just the last driving band showing on Doug's pic is removed. this gives it what still looks like a gas-check area, and cuts clean. I did make a new spru plate for it with smaller holes. It cuts much easier, and leaves a very flat and clean base.
When Cedric and I were first talking abut doing this, it was our thought that the base, left looking a bit like a Gas-Check area, might possibly as sort of a mini Boat Tail. Hoping it could help down range some.
Now that I have a longer barrel, I may deck another 80 gr. NOE to bring up the weight to match the one Doug and Cedric are now shooting.
I would like to send one of them out next year to Eric and have his Hollow point service done to the mold.
Knife
So, its o.k. if the gas check area is still there?
Or
Is it best to have the tail of the boolit or bottom of it flush in diameter with the skirt, meaning that it does not become more narrow at the tail?
I've got much to learn here.
Thanks,
Al.
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IMO it is an advantage to have the gas-check area still there.... It MAY work as a slight boattail, reducing drag, but I think there are two larger advantages.... #1, the sprue plate can't smear or distort the last part of the bullet to contact the rifling when it leaves the muzzle (the driving band).... and #2, if any "fins" form from contact with the rifling they disappear into the gas check area, rather than sticking past the base of the bullet to act as unintentional (and inconsistent) "rudders".... My Bob's Boattails simply carried that idea further, using a rebated boattail where the rebate moved the last bore contact point forward from the base (eliminating the two problems above) and the boattail section reduces the drag over a bullet with a larger base.... The downside is that you need to spin them faster for the same overall length, so they need a faster twist for the same weight and length....
Bob
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IMO it is an advantage to have the gas-check area still there.... It MAY work as a slight boattail, reducing drag, but I think there are two larger advantages.... #1, the sprue plate can't smear or distort the last part of the bullet to contact the rifling when it leaves the muzzle (the driving band).... and #2, if any "fins" form from contact with the rifling they disappear into the gas check area, rather than sticking past the base of the bullet to act as unintentional (and inconsistent) "rudders".... My Bob's Boattails simply carried that idea further, using a rebated boattail where the rebate moved the last bore contact point forward from the base (eliminating the two problems above) and the boattail section reduces the drag over a bullet with a larger base.... The downside is that you need to spin them faster for the same overall length, so they need a faster twist for the same weight and length....
Bob
Thanks Bob,
Really learned a lot and can picture the logic behind your thoughts.
Respectfully,
Al.
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I can't help but think that Bob is right on here. I've tried them with the gas check type area milled off, and with it left on. Seems the bullets that are otherwise identical, are more accurate with the gas check area left intact, rather than a full width base.
Doug, do you remember what it weighs?
Knife
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Where's the beef?
Anyone have word on the Mac35 ? In production yet, or?
John
I recently received an e-mail from Rick Eustler telling me that many improvements have been made on the final production model and that he should have one in his hands ready for review sometime really soon, like the first week of December or something like that...could be sooner.
Thanks,
Al.
(AGW)
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According to an email update that I recently received from INVT, they recently gave a MAC35 away to someone, so I'm guessing that the final production models are ready.
I've been watching a lot of big-bore air-gun videos lately and based on the performance that I've seen from these various makes, types of big-bore air-rifles; the MAC35 as we currently know it (before any of the improvements that have been made) does not seem to be doing to bad of a job...considering the size of the air reservoirs.
Seriously looking forward to viewing Rick's (Airgun Web) review on the final production model MAC35 and hoping he provides us with performance statistics based on various weighted ammo.
Anyone one else have any updates?
Respectfully,
Al.
(AGW)
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Hi Guys
Apologies for the silence recently, we have been completely absorbed with bringing the MAC35 to market.
Reading back through this thread, much of it is off topic, but I would like to address any questions you have with regards to Inovairtech and our products. As I don't get on here as much as I should, please email me any questions you may have directly for a rapid response, on paulb@inovairtech.com
The MAC35 is made on CNC machines to reproduce parts identically. So once set up, it is far more efficient to run many units to ensure the costs and time for each part is justified. We therefore decided to manufacture the 100 MAC35 limited edition (gold inlay) in one campaign. The first units were sent out about 10 days ago and the feedback response from our customers has been very good. Over the next few days customers will start to send feedback product reviews on our Facebook page and on our webpage.
We have and will be sending a few units out for review with the airgun/gun media, I will paste links here, on our webpage *reviews/links" section and on Facebook when they appear, which hopefully will be within the next few weeks.
We have also opened a store in Las Vegas - details are available on Inovairtech.com "about" section.
For those of you attending SHOT SHOW in January you may like to join us at the range and experience shooting the MAC35 for yourself between 20th and 23rd of January in Las Vegas. If so please email me directly on the address above.
It would be great to actually meet you guys and be able to show you first hand the MAC35 capabilities.
Meanwhile have a safe and enjoyable holiday season and all the best for the New Year!!
Best regards
Paul Baxter
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I would love to get my hands on a 58 gr mold !
Yeah the only way to get lighter is to deck the mold. That is what was done to the NOE mold. It was a 85 gr bullet and now a 71 gr.
I know of one guy on the TAG forum that has a 58 gr Lyman. He is the one that decked the NOE mold. I talked to NOE and they will make a new mold just like what I have if I send them a couple of samples. I'm going to because it shoots so good and this is a borrowed mold.
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I would love to get my hands on a 58 gr mold !
Grumpy, I have a 54.6 gr lyman 257420 here that I am not using.
and if you pick up a NOE 80gr FlatPoint, I can get it down to 59.6. but that's about it.
Knife
Yeah the only way to get lighter is to deck the mold. That is what was done to the NOE mold. It was a 85 gr bullet and now a 71 gr.
I know of one guy on the TAG forum that has a 58 gr Lyman. He is the one that decked the NOE mold. I talked to NOE and they will make a new mold just like what I have if I send them a couple of samples. I'm going to because it shoots so good and this is a borrowed mold.
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My interest will be on the "planned" .410 double barreled shotgun!!! I hope it's a break barrel side x side with about 16-20 inch barrel. ;D ;D ;D ;D.
Any pricing on the current production guns?
If you guys need someone to review a pre-production .410 shotgun...send it to my "Shotgun Saloon" and I'll give it a full review
on my channel....."fortyshooter1" ;D
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Hi
Thought you might be interested in viewing our Veterans Day Shooting Competition held in Las Vegas, which has just been published on our YouTube channel. Congratulations to Don Leckburg, the winner of the first Inovairtech shooting competition at Pro Gun Club Las Vegas yesterday. After qualifying through the group stages Don went heads up in the final with Larry, the scores were tied after 5 shots so it went to a sudden death single shot nearest the bull playoff. Larry shot first and was close to the bullseye. Don stepped up and with the distraction of the target fluttering in the wind and his cell phone going off at the critical moment he nailed clinched it . Don wins a MAC35/scope combination prize, serial number 11, to commemorate the great service and dedication of the Veterans.
http://youtu.be/yrz6S8NB8gA (http://youtu.be/yrz6S8NB8gA)
In response to one of the above questions, the shotgun should be available at the end of the 2015 or even early 2016, no pricing is available at present.
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Hi
Thought you might be interested in viewing our Veterans Day Shooting Competition held in Las Vegas, which has just been published on our YouTube channel. Congratulations to Don Leckburg, the winner of the first Inovairtech shooting competition at Pro Gun Club Las Vegas yesterday. After qualifying through the group stages Don went heads up in the final with Larry, the scores were tied after 5 shots so it went to a sudden death single shot nearest the bull playoff. Larry shot first and was close to the bullseye. Don stepped up and with the distraction of the target fluttering in the wind and his cell phone going off at the critical moment he nailed clinched it . Don wins a MAC35/scope combination prize, serial number 11, to commemorate the great service and dedication of the Veterans.
http://youtu.be/yrz6S8NB8gA (http://youtu.be/yrz6S8NB8gA)
In response to one of the above questions, the shotgun should be available at the end of the 2015 or even early 2016, no pricing is available at present.
Well maybe a picture of it when you get to a finished product. Can't wait to see how it will look!!
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Hi Guys
just launched the MAC25 we will start shipping these in approx. one month
please see website for details:
www.inovairtech.com (http://www.inovairtech.com)
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Shot show review:
http://hardairmagazine.com/news/product-news/shooting-inovairtech-big-bore-air-rifles/ (http://hardairmagazine.com/news/product-news/shooting-inovairtech-big-bore-air-rifles/)
Joseph
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Didn't take me long to figure out that the reviewer doesn't know much.
.257 pellets?
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Didn't take me long to figure out that the reviewer doesn't know much.
.257 pellets?
lol---.257 pellets.
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Yeah, there are a few folks on ANOTHER forum that call BULLETS pellets.
Its either SLUGS or BULLETS. There are no 257 pellets........lol
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I think they were shooting .25 JSB's in a .257 barrel. I don't see the .257 having enough power to do any good with slugs.
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I've owned the MAC35 for a couple years now. Owning #14 off the production line I have some good news and some, not so good. The first magazine that came with this rifle was suppose to hold 4 MAC's with the 5th in the chamber. The problem with the mag was that there was a design flaw and it would only hold three rounds. Okay, I guess I could live with that. What I couldn't live with is that the MAC's would jam before loading into the breech. Not good. Inovairtech now tells me that they have a whole new design for it's mag now (I don't have the updated version). And the MAC's are nortorious air leakers. I've had pellets pop off before even loading them into the mag.
AS OF SEPT. 2018 INOVAIRTECH IS OUT OF BUSINESS. THEIR WEBSITE IS REGESTERED TO BANKING/AIRLINE SITE.