GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Macky on March 05, 2013, 03:15:51 PM
-
Can I play with you guys ???? I brought my new (to me) Woods Walker P-Rod........
Got a good deal on a used LNIB WW P-Rod, pump, scope and pellets. Just took delivery of it a few hours ago. It came fully gassed too :o Anyways, set up the chrony for some initial testing with JSB Jumbo 15.89g. From 2900 to 1900 got about 40 or so shots. Out of 30 shots recorded High was 620, Low 521, Avg 587, ES 99. I had some troubles with the mags only cycling 7 rounds, probably should read how to properly load them, but was way too excited to shoot it.
After I removed the fill cap, there appears to be corrosion on the foster fill fitting, should I be worried about what's possibly inside the air reservoir ?
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y506/JaxMacky/DSC02394_zps0800255b.jpg)
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y506/JaxMacky/DSC02391_zpsec2b1b37.jpg)
-
Nice looking Woods Walker P-Rod you got there. I can't help with the corrosion issue though, as I'm new to the Darkside myself.
-
Macky,
It is quite likely that there's some corrosion inside the tube too, especially if it's been fitted with a vinyl tube depinger.
next time you shoot it down to 1900, degas the tube, remove the fill valve end and have a peek.
If it's not too bad, give it a thorough clean with some white spirits, then a light touch of silicone grease on the corroded spots. wipe off the grease so that there's just a hint of a smear left. I use cloth wrapped around a wooden dowel to clean and lube inside the air cylinder.
-
I've had some Mrod mags do that, and just move the spring tab to the next hole.
See: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=38058.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=38058.0)
-
Can awlays check the inside of the tube.
Make sure the tube is empty of ALL air pressure...and i mean ZERO. Can check thatby dry fire until you feeel.hear no air at the muzzle, THEN hold the trigger back and run a rod into the rear end cap. If you can feel the striker compressing the valve stem as you push in that rod, it's empty.
Take off the shroud so you can really get to the fill nipple/end cap (the barrel is shorter than the air tube, so you it won't be in the way).
Put a wrench on the flats of the fill nipple and unscrew. If you are LUCKY, the whole end cap will unscrew and you can see inside the ai tube. If you are unlucky, just the fill nipple will unscrew and you'll have to fight the end cap off (it's thin, but you can get it off by (1) a small stap wrench or (2) SOFT lead blocks and a vice).
-
daveb50 : Thanks for your comments, and how about we learn together !
FuzzyGrub : I was totally loading the mags wrong. Got it now. Thanks for posting markasaurus's link here !!!
Ribbonstone & Aussie : Thank you also for your posts, and info on degassing and checking the internals of the air tube. I got REAL lucky, as what is not apparent in my photo of the corroded foster fitting, is the fact that the main part that threads into the air tube, has flats on it. Came out no problem. The internals look fine to me, no corrosion. I reassembled as is, due to lack of silicone grease. This gun didn't appear to ever been disassembled before, there was plenty of lube and residual oils on everything.
After putting everything back together, I hooked up the Benji pump and began the recharge process from zero. All went well, but noticed a very bad finish and serious pitting on the lowest part of the pump tube. How far down does that O-ring go, is this going to be an issue ?
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y506/JaxMacky/DSC02398_zpsfe0ef1cb.jpg)
-
About the only thing you can do for the pump tube is to clean it and lube it lightly with silicon grease. HAve noticed pump tubes can get that pitting, the process I do not know. But as the first o0ring has to ride over that area, woul make sure it is a bit smoother and litely lubed (or it's going to chew the o-ring pretty fast).
The only rust I found in a PCP tube (so far) was in one rifle (different brand) that I opened up a couple of days after it arrived, so evidently it was "factory rust".
-
I had similiar corrosion on a pump I recently rebuilt. It was the same sleave, but at the top. I suspect that water gets behind the o-ring, and after a good period of non-use, the corrosion forms. I sanded with 600 paper, and was able to buff allot out, and elliminate "catching" edges. So far, it has been holding, but it has only been a week. A couple of refills on the mrods, and probably 10 refills of the prod.
-
Thanks guys regarding the pump issue. I will do some polishing, but got to get some proper lube for it, soon.
Here is today's shot string. Forgive me if the graph is lack luster, I sorta just now learned on the fly, how to do that. It's not entirely accurate as the chrony did not record about 10 shots through out the sting. I should have kept better track of each shot, but basically wanted to know roughly where the sweet spot was. I checked the factory settings, or at least the way the gun came to me, and here is what I have: Backed out (ccw) the preload 5.5 turns until it stopped, so 5.5 cw for preload. I could not turn the stroke out anymore ccw, seemed rather snug, but could turn it cw, so Zero for stroke. Did I do that right ?
34 (recorded, more like 40 total) shots from 2900 to 1400, Hi 631, Low 540, Avg 596, ES 91 with JSB Jumbo 15.89g
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y506/JaxMacky/P-RodStockChrony-1_zps7ff40584.jpg)
-
I am not sure of what your goals are, but with the bstaley 0-ring mod and a 0.110" transfer port, you can get 16FPE ave over 24 shots, with a low ES 20-25.
PS: I haven't ran with those settings or that weight pellet, but offhand looks like a "normal" prod spread.
-
I am not sure of what your goals are, but with the bstaley 0-ring mod and a 0.110" transfer port, you can get 16FPE ave over 24 shots, with a low ES 20-25.
PS: I haven't ran with those settings or that weight pellet, but offhand looks like a "normal" prod spread.
Reassuring to know that this used p-rod is shooting typical numbers. 16-18 fpe would be ideal, but hinges on accuracy. Do cphp's shoot we'll in the p-rod? I may pick up a tin as they are fairly cheep, and use them for initial testing. I'll have to look into the bstaley mod and what I need for parts. Also I haven't looked at an exploded view yet, does the transfer port mod require drilling out, or is there a separate piece that can be made or purchased?
-
The bstaley mod is just 3-4 o-rings. Lots of info out there. If you need links, let me know.
You can drill out your transfer port, or buy one from Marmit Militia for less than $9.
Pellets: Might want to ask the previous owner which were best. CPHP were not that good for mine. H&N FTT 5.53 worked well.
-
Found a link for the original bstaley oring mod, found a printed p-rod diagram too. Do some more tuning over the weekend.
-
The bstaley mod is just 3-4 o-rings. Lots of info out there. If you need links, let me know.
You can drill out your transfer port, or buy one from Marmit Militia for less than $9.
Pellets: Might want to ask the previous owner which were best. CPHP were not that good for mine. H&N FTT 5.53 worked well.
Previous owner said he only shot a few hundred rounds, so really no help there. I have shot that in just a few days. The package came with a tin of H&N Hunter Extreme's(5.5), tin of 16g Polymags, as well as 3 tins of JSB 15.9's. My Dad has a Gamo SSW in .22, he has some JSB Monsters, as well as CPHP's, and RWS Superdomes (I think) so I will try them all and report back here.
Cheers, Jerry
-
I got a chance today to shoot one good 24 shot string over the chrony. Fill pressure was 2600, shot down to 1600. Preload was at 5.5 and stroke was backed off ccw all the way. I feel though, after looking at the recent numbers, I could have upped the fill pressure to probably 2700-2800. I was quite surprised the curve was as flat as it was. I didn't get a chance to test for accuracy yet, so that will be another post.
I hope the attached graph is a little better then the last one, I am still learning how to do that. As for the odd pressure numbers, I took whole 200 psi readings, and then averaged the in between's.
Tonight, I did the BStaley O-Ring Mod (three #113 o-rings), as well as the poly transfer port. Unfortunately, I don't have proper lighting for indoor chrony work. Trust me.... I tried to get at least a couple numbers, but the chrony, just wasn't reading anything. I can say just by the sound..... It's going to be shooting faster.
Oh yea, I am still shooting those JSB 15.9's
More testing to follow. Macky
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y506/JaxMacky/WWShotStringStock_zps6938d01f.jpg)
-
Looks very flat. :)
-
So I did a Bstaley O-Ring Mod, and poly transfer port. Too dark last night to get chrony numbers. So this morning, I took a couple shots, they were in the 730 range. I attempted to make an adjustment to the spring preload, and as soon as I did, realized I had gone too far. I ran out out threads, trying for MORE preload. It would not thread back in. Rather then force it, I dis-assembled the gun again, and fixed the issue. All back together, I aired up to 2900. I shot a couple dry fires to make sure the valve was opening, and made an adjustment. Loaded up 3 mags and started to shoot over the chrony. Well, I emptied those, reloaded 3 more mags and continued my testing. I finished up at 1200 psi with total 50 shots.
What I am trying to accomplish is good power with a decent shot count ( lol like everyone else right). Once again, seems my power is in the 2000-1600 psi range. It does not seem to like higher pressures, at least using the stock spring. I think the 730's I was getting was max preload. Perhaps going to 2 o-rings might help, giving the hammer more room to move.
I think it took me longer to put this spreadsheet together then it did to shoot all fifty shots, including the unexpected tear down.
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y506/JaxMacky/ShotString3-10-13_zpsb549d7ca.jpg)
-
Try adjusting your throw before removing an oring. Go 6.5 - 7 on preload. I use 1 brass washer plus three o-rings, which gives a stack height near 3 1/2 orings. With 2 orings, it will only provide only a little buffer if the valve stem is near the max stroke.
Did you do a tissue test to make sure the poly port is not leaking?
-
Try adjusting your throw before removing an oring. Go 6.5 - 7 on preload. I use 1 brass washer plus three o-rings, which gives a stack height near 3 1/2 orings. With 2 orings, it will only provide only a little buffer if the valve stem is near the max stroke.
Did you do a tissue test to make sure the poly port is not leaking?
OK, did not think to do a tissue test. Assuming the leak would be between the breech and air tube, would I lay the tissue over each side ? I did cut the poly maybe a 1/16" longer then stock TP. I just may have a leak there, as just before emergency tear down I was getting 730's @ 2000 psi.
The first two shots of the string, I made a couple adjustments. I thought 388 was quite slow, and warranted an immediate adjustment. The rest of the string, the throw was at max (fully ccw), and the preload was at 6. I can see more preload will help, but there is not much left. Maybe a 1.5 turns at best. I will try a lower fill pressure, in and around the current sweetspot, with the above mentioned adjustments.
Thanks, Fuzzy
-
I agree with Fuzzy on the o-rings. Leave all three in there or they won't accomplish their purpose of stopping hammer bounce at lower pressure. When you do the Bstaley mod, the adjustments don't work the same as normal. First you want to set the spring preload to give you a curve at the desired peak(clockwise on preload raises the peak psi). Then you can start turning the hammer stroke to adjust velocity(clockwise increases velocity). Note that the velocity adjustment is very touchy - make those adjustments in 1/8 turn increments. I found the adjustment range to be from 0 turns to about 3 turns clockwise. More than that and velocity plateaued and then started decreasing again.
My Prod was the same as yours - couldn't get the peak above ~2000psi with the stock spring. After installing a heavier spring, I was able to set my peak anywhere up to 3000psi. It works well when set to ~2500psi. Fill to 2800 and shoot down to 2100. I get about 15 shots with H&N FTT 14.6's averaging 780fps(19+fpe).
Shooting those strings can be very addictive. Enjoy the ride.
Jerry
-
Thanks Jerry,
Your explanation helped a bunch. That 388 fps @ 2900 totally threw me off. I already knew the sweet spot was in the 2000 range, but wanted to make sure I had all the curve to compare to, in regards to the o-ring mod. Now that I know, with the stock spring, what to expect, I will shoot in that range making the 1/8 turn adjustments as you suggest. It may not be exactly what I want, without a heavier spring, It does give me more experience in terms of overall tuning of this gun. Question is, where did you you source your 10# spring ?
-
FWIW: I measured the striker change. One turn equals 0.040". So, 1/8 turn is only 0.005". But, these small changes, can make dramatic results. I was seeing a change of one FPE per 1/8 turn within the range 14-20 FPE. With your larger TP might even be more. Once you get close, try even smaller increments. Keeping the striker from moving, once you found the "sweet" spot, can be an issue.
I got springs at local H/W. You want one with same length and diameter, but one larger size in wire diameter. Stock is 0.035", and next wire size was 0.040".
-
OK, did not think to do a tissue test. Assuming the leak would be between the breech and air tube, would I lay the tissue over each side ? I did cut the poly maybe a 1/16" longer then stock TP. I just may have a leak there, as just before emergency tear down I was getting 730's @ 2000 psi.
Just lay the tissue over both sides at the same time.
FWIW: I looked at the data from Airgun Artisian where he tested numerous transfer ports. Anything larger than the .110" did not produce any significant gains. You would probably have to do some porting or other mods to get any additional benefit.
-
FWIW: I measured the striker change. One turn equals 0.040". So, 1/8 turn is only 0.005". But, these small changes, can make dramatic results. I was seeing a change of one FPE per 1/8 turn within the range 14-20 FPE. With your larger TP might even be more. Once you get close, try even smaller increments. Keeping the striker from moving, once you found the "sweet" spot, can be an issue.
I got springs at local H/W. You want one with same length and diameter, but one larger size in wire diameter. Stock is 0.035", and next wire size was 0.040".
OK, did not think to do a tissue test. Assuming the leak would be between the breech and air tube, would I lay the tissue over each side ? I did cut the poly maybe a 1/16" longer then stock TP. I just may have a leak there, as just before emergency tear down I was getting 730's @ 2000 psi.
Just lay the tissue over both sides at the same time.
FWIW: I looked at the data from Airgun Artisian where he tested numerous transfer ports. Anything larger than the .110" did not produce any significant gains. You would probably have to do some porting or other mods to get any additional benefit.
John,
Thanks for all the help and excellent information. Tissue test Passed. But I think I will do a better job of making sure that each end is flat. I cut it quickly with an exacto knife, and then installed it. I recall a thread somewhere, about the numerous TP testing. I am sure that is the one.
-
I woke up this morning dead set on dialing in the WW. First thing I did was try and give it more Preload. The spring guide became completely unthreaded again. Instead of a complete dis-assembly, I tried pushing inward slightly, and tried back threading it. Worked like a charm. I counted the total preload, and there is a total of 6 safe revolutions, 7 revs is where it becomes unthreaded. My plan was to shoot 8-10 shot strings, starting at about 2000 psi, to see what the peak velocity was. P=6 S=1 was the first sting. 2nd P=6 S=2, and third P=6 S=3 . The forth string was P=6 S=0.5, as the velocity seemed best at S=1. To complicate things, it was raining. Slight drizzle, but enough to warrant moving the chrony in and out, each string.
It was then, I asked myself, why am I doing this ? I wasn't completely comfortable with the fact that I only had 1 rev of threads holding the spring guide in place. And because, with the o-ring mod, the preload is what sets the working pressure, I was not going to get any shot string over 2000 psi anyways. So I said to myself, "Self, You need a BIGGER spring." I got dressed, and went back to the local HW store where I got the o-rings from. No spring. I did, however pick a nylon bushing (splurged, it was $0.15) that just fit "inside" the tube end cap, only needing a ream to fit over the spring guide. I figured, if nothing else, I'd have a bit more to play with in terms of preload.
I went to the next closest major city about 15 miles away. First store..... Nope, no springs at all. Second store, they had springs, but not the right ones I needed. Third store, BINGO.... I hit the jack pot. I got 2 more stock springs .035, two .045 springs that were 1 1/8" long (a bit long but thought I clip them if need be), and two .045 springs 3" long. Now I know those were WAY to long, but again figured I could make custom length as needed.
With the new springs in pocket, I rushed home. I only had 20 minutes left before I had to go to work. Guess what I did ? Yup...... I installed the 1 1/8" x 0.045" spring. Pumped up to 2200, loaded two, 8 shot mags......... and shot over the chrony. First shot - 755 fps. WOW. That's 20 fpe. Second shot 749. WHAT ? Third shot 744. gracious. Forth shot 738. Darn, 2200 wasn't enough for peak fps. Fifth 733....... gracious, 20 FPE, Sixth 728. gracious, 20 FPE, Seventh 721. Eighth 716, and this was all with P=0 S=0.5 ....... Can you tell I was excited ??? Pft, weren't you when you got your first PCP. LOL
Shots 9-16 are as follows. 710, 702, 696, 688, 681, 673, 664, 654. Ending pressure: 1400
So you can pretty much guess what I'll be doing after I wake up in morning. I WILL empty that tin of 500 pellets, I opened almost 7 days ago.
Going for a 2900 fill, shoot down to 4% of highest velocity, then start tuning the stroke for ES. More data to follow.
Once again, thanks for all the help and information. I have read many times, threads like these. And have gained alot of knowledge from them.
Cheers, Macky
-
With the heavy spring, go to 3000 or 3100psi fill.
-
With the heavy spring, go to 3000 or 3100psi fill.
Thanks Fuzzy,
I shot a bunch of strings this morning from 3000 down to 1800 for 24 shots. Seemed to work really well. I started out adjusting preload, then moved over to stroke. I think I am pretty close now. I even scoped up and shot a string down range to 37 yards. I will post the numbers later on tonight.
-
Macky,
It is quite likely that there's some corrosion inside the tube too, especially if it's been fitted with a vinyl tube depinger.
next time you shoot it down to 1900, degas the tube, remove the fill valve end and have a peek.
If it's not too bad, give it a thorough clean with some white spirits, then a light touch of silicone grease on the corroded spots. wipe off the grease so that there's just a hint of a smear left. I use cloth wrapped around a wooden dowel to clean and lube inside the air cylinder.
Degas her off and do as Aussie stated. Use a flashlight to look down the tube and see what exist. Hopefully none will be found.
-
Nice looking P-rod.
-
Macky,
It is quite likely that there's some corrosion inside the tube too, especially if it's been fitted with a vinyl tube depinger.
next time you shoot it down to 1900, degas the tube, remove the fill valve end and have a peek.
If it's not too bad, give it a thorough clean with some white spirits, then a light touch of silicone grease on the corroded spots. wipe off the grease so that there's just a hint of a smear left. I use cloth wrapped around a wooden dowel to clean and lube inside the air cylinder.
Degas her off and do as Aussie stated. Use a flashlight to look down the tube and see what exist. Hopefully none will be found.
Opening up the internals of the air tube was one of the first thing I did, and everything looked ok.
-
Nice looking P-rod.
Thank you ! After just a short week and about 500 pellets, I'd like to think it's shooting pretty well now too ! I have been modding and tuning all week with the help of all the above GTA members ! Stay tuned, latest chrony results and preliminary accuracy tests to follow.
-
I spent the morning shooting five 24 shot strings, adjusting the Preload and Stroke. I did have one "oops". My attempt at cocking failed, and ended up loading 2 pellets. I think I am pretty close, with maybe a bit more adjusting. Having the numbers in front you, really shows you what a little adjustment can do.
I also took the first chance at accuracy. Mind you, set up was less then perfect. The main goal was sighting in the scope, for potential pesting. I used Chairgun to optimize my zeros, and used the given 37 yards as my test. I shot three, 8 shot strings. First one was for zeroing, then let loose on the last two. "Let Loose" is a good word to describe it, lol. It can only get better.......... I hope !
Comments Welcome ! Jerry
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y506/JaxMacky/ShotString3-12-13_zpsf6634369.jpg)
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y506/JaxMacky/Target3-12-13_zpsde381870.jpg)
-
Now you have some strings. Not sure of your goals, but to get a flatter 24 shots, need to turn down the stroke, to get to around 16FPE, try one turn stroke. 2400 psi looks like the midpoint. Adjust while at that pressure.
-
So I have taken a little break from tuning my P-Rod WW, just to enjoy shooting it. There are a few more sets of strings I want to document, but over all I now have a better understanding of what the adjustments do, to the over all shot string. I think I am quite happy with the current settings, and output.
This gun came with a Red Dot Scope, which I never mounted. I would think it's geared more towards the pistol then the carbine setup. It also came with a 3-9x32 AO, which was ok, but because of the small tube, and not so great glass, my field of view through the scope was too small. The outer portion of the glass was also fuzzy, and seemed out of focus. Because my springer hasn't seen use since the new PCP, I decided to "borrow" it's glass. The scope is a Leapers Accushot 3-12x44 AO long version. I know it's a bit long for the Woods Walker, but I like this scope a lot better.
Last summer, I machined a piece of 1 1/2" PVC pipe to fit the scope and sort of "snap" onto the camera I currently have. It's held onto the scope by way of hose clamp. It worked last summer, as a proof of concept, but the springer overwhelmed the whole setup, and I abandoned it. Fortunately, I was able to find the PVC adapter under the snow of my shooting bench, and remount and test it with the WW. I really need an extra long cantilevered 3/8" to Weaver rail, so that I can move the scope ahead, when scope cam shooting. I made a couple videos, however my goto laptop is not up to the video editing challenge it once was. So it might be a few days before I can post any video. But here is my current setup as is, so far.
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y506/JaxMacky/WWBigScope_zpsb4c70cc0.jpg)
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y506/JaxMacky/WWScopeCamSetup_zps4f03ca84.jpg)
-
I have that same Leapers 3-12x44AO on my Mrod .25 and happy so far. That smaller scope looks like a Leapers Bug Buster. I'd contact Leapers. They might exchage it even though you weren't the original owner. Worth the price of an email to try, anyway. ;)