GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Hatsan Airguns => Topic started by: Devin on April 23, 2012, 12:35:58 AM
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My father and I got his 95 out for it's first workout yesterday. Things were looking good, dieseling had come to a near stop, cocking and shot cycle had also smoothed out a bit until one pull of the barrel. Suddenly during cocking the rifle there was some significant friction and sound of metal on metal. We took the action out and looked in through the cocking slot to see what seems to be a sleeve that fits over the spring inside of the piston had been all chewed up. I can only assume that the missing material has sheared away and is scattered inside of the tube, and quite possibly has worked itself into the area the piston seal travels.
So, a heads up to those of you with the 95 and maybe other Hatsans. Keep an eye out for abnormal wear in this area. If it is indeed a full sleeve fitted over the spring on the piston-end, Hatsan should think about using a more robust steel for this part. It looks to be pretty weak and thin, thin enough that I could imagine this piece wearing out and flaking away in any of the 95's over time, some more quickly than others as in my father's case.
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My father and I got his 95 out for it's first workout yesterday. Things were looking good, dieseling had come to a near stop, cocking and shot cycle had also smoothed out a bit until one pull of the barrel. Suddenly during cocking the rifle there was some significant friction and sound of metal on metal. We took the action out and looked in through the cocking slot to see what seems to be a sleeve that fits over the spring inside of the piston had been all chewed up. I can only assume that the missing material has sheared away and is scattered inside of the tube, and quite possibly has worked itself into the area the piston seal travels.
So, a heads up to those of you with the 95 and maybe other Hatsans. Keep an eye out for abnormal wear in this area. If it is indeed a full sleeve fitted over the spring on the piston-end, Hatsan should think about using a more robust steel for this part. It looks to be pretty weak and thin, thin enough that I could imagine this piece wearing out and flaking away in any of the 95's over time, some more quickly than others as in my father's case.
Can you post up some large, clear pics of the problem, please ?
Thanks !
Dave
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... what he said.
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They should have been about double this size (nevermind, they enlarge by clicking), but for those who want/need pictoral guidance.
All you can see are the chewed up edges, but I believe that is a sleeve that goes over the spring as a buffer between the coils and the inner surface of the piston. I would have taken apart to investigate further, but I'm looking to just get a replacement (hopfully).
(http://i41.tinypic.com/23lh4zk.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/33w46mf.jpg)
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I don't believe that is a sleeve. That is where they cut the slot you are looking through and did not cut all the way through nor did they clean up the edges afterwards. My 125 sniper looked the same way assuring me to take it apart before even firing a shot. The piston also had these shavings inside it. Hopefully one of these shavings is not stuck between the piston and chamber walls.
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I don't believe that is a sleeve. That is where they cut the slot you are looking through and did not cut all the way through nor did they clean up the edges afterwards. My 125 sniper looked the same way assuring me to take it apart before even firing a shot. The piston also had these shavings inside it. Hopefully one of these shavings is not stuck between the piston and chamber walls.
It's a sleeve of some sort, it is between the spring and piston. Very thin and very weak.
Try looking closer at the second photo, you can see the thickness of this "sleeve". They may have well stacked a couple layers of tin foil. Photos of more angles would allow you to see better what it is. But these are the ones my father took, and I have no way of getting any more at the moment.
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Trust me. It's not a sleeve. I just filed those thin pieces off my piston a week ago in the same slot. They left slivers of metal on the inside of the piston when cutting out that slot. Had the same thing on mine.
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Trust me. It's not a sleeve. I just filed those thin pieces off my piston a week ago in the same slot. They left slivers of metal on the inside of the piston when cutting out that slot. Had the same thing on mine.
OK, I could see the thin material continue around the spring, so I assumed it was a sleeve. It may just be left over flashing from cutting the slot in the piston (an aweful lot, that's for sure). The concern remains seeing as there are bits of sharp metal shards floating around in the compression tube. It looks like having a spring compressor should be a prerequisite for owning one of these followed by a complete tear-down before the first shot. Poor manufactureing, and non existant QC...tisk tisk. I'm worried about taking it apart and finding yet more damage. Can they be returned after being completely disassembled?
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It's not really a problem with poor manufacturing so much as the fact that almost all high quality steel and aluminum goes to China's aerospace, civic, and military industries. What you are left with is mostly cheaper recycled alloys for anything that is being exported. It's part that they allow it, but part of it is that it's nearly impossible for the companies to get quality materials at a competitive price in China if you're making stuff outside of a few specific industries. Welcome to the dictatorship rearing its ugly head and screwing with the supply chain.
So they build it to spec. It just wears out quicker. Or in the case of vehicles, does horrible in crash-tests. It's not how strong it is but how much it can take when it's being subjected to forces that are going to potentially wear it out or break it.
That piece of metal is probably strong enough in the German rifle they copied. But I also suspect that it's made out of high quality metal that's machined to exact tolerances. Because they know that price isn't a concern when you're talking about potential metal in the chamber (total disaster scenario). I bet that little piece is a couple of dollars to the price of a typical German rifle.
Note - you'll also likely note that the Chinese airguns also tend to have their springs take a set/get damaged when left cocked, in a much shorter time.
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It's not really a problem with poor manufacturing so much as the fact that almost all high quality steel and aluminum goes to China's aerospace, civic, and military industries. What you are left with is mostly cheaper recycled alloys for anything that is being exported. It's part that they allow it, but part of it is that it's nearly impossible for the companies to get quality materials at a competitive price in China if you're making stuff outside of a few specific industries. Welcome to the dictatorship rearing its ugly head and screwing with the supply chain.
So they build it to spec. It just wears out quicker. Or in the case of vehicles, does horrible in crash-tests. It's not how strong it is but how much it can take when it's being subjected to forces that are going to potentially wear it out or break it.
That piece of metal is probably strong enough in the German rifle they copied. But I also suspect that it's made out of high quality metal that's machined to exact tolerances. Because they know that price isn't a concern when you're talking about potential metal in the chamber (total disaster scenario). I bet that little piece is a couple of dollars to the price of a typical German rifle.
Note - you'll also likely note that the Chinese airguns also tend to have their springs take a set/get damaged when left cocked, in a much shorter time.
You do realize that these are Turkish built rifles of Hatsan's own design right?
Not Chinese clones of German guns.
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The same comments about metals and their quality still apply, though. It's clear that someone cut corners in a bad way. Someone doesn't understand the importance of those tiny parts being the reason it all works properly. And why none of it can be made cheaper if you want it to stay working.
Also, built in Turkey? So basically a copy of a German airgun. But with even worse quality control and reverse-engineering skills than they get in China. I'm leery of Chinese built airguns, but Turkey is... yeah, no thanks. I hear their shotguns are fine, though. But airguns are not firearms and they require special knowledge and skills to get right.
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Plekto,
Hatsan makes some very fine air guns. They also have come out with some very invocative design features this spring....Maybe this is just one that slipped thru the cracks. Its the first time Ive read about anything like this, so i would think you just were the unlucky buyer....
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Pletko, I think your vision is slightly screwed, LOL :) :)
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Trust me. It's not a sleeve. I just filed those thin pieces off my piston a week ago in the same slot. They left slivers of metal on the inside of the piston when cutting out that slot. Had the same thing on mine.
OK, I could see the thin material continue around the spring, so I assumed it was a sleeve. It may just be left over flashing from cutting the slot in the piston (an aweful lot, that's for sure). The concern remains seeing as there are bits of sharp metal shards floating around in the compression tube. It looks like having a spring compressor should be a prerequisite for owning one of these followed by a complete tear-down before the first shot. Poor manufactureing, and non existant QC...tisk tisk. I'm worried about taking it apart and finding yet more damage. Can they be returned after being completely disassembled?
Do not take it apart. Contact Hatsan and tell them what you have found. They may ask you to send the rifle directly to them. I am currently in the process of sending my 125 to them due to similar problems with loose metal destroying the power plant. They SEEM interested in finding out what is going on and addressing it at the manufacturing level, and guns with this condition should help them identify the problem and elmiminate it in future production runs.
There are more than a few cases of loose metal in the actions of the new Hatsans, and it is beginning to look like a recurring issue.
Contact - info@hatsanusa.com
Give them a detailed description of the problem, and include your pics.
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Just looked at my Sinper 125 and there is a little piece of metal,chip,in the same location,but seems to be trapped by the spring against the tube wall. You can move it around slightly with a long metal scribe. Maybe I can fish it out of there.
Be great if Pyramyd Air would offer a clean and prep option,to take care of issues like this!
Gun is still shooting fine,but would like to prevent any later issues down the road.
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I seem to have the same thing in the exact same spot... :o
I guess I should try to get it out of there...
{EDIT}
On closer inspection this does *appear* to be some kind of sheath, looks intentionally located between the spring and the piston...strange.. It does not seem to (want to) move (yet) but with some more use probably will..
Jim
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Before I ever shot my Mod 95, I tore it down, and the slots where the piston engage the sear, were blackened and perforated. They are metal left from incomplete machining in a $140 gun. Tear it down, and remove the piston. Using a dremel tool or Swiss file, remove the material from the slot, square up the edges and debur progressively up to 400 grit sand paper or emery cloth. Make sure you also sand those same surfaces inside the piston, making sure there are no burs or rolled metal from the filing. Then polish the shoulders around the sear engagement slot, thoroughly clean and degrease, then relube. While you have the piston out, check the seal and cylinder for metal filings....flush out if you find any.
Or....you can return the gun.
Mark
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I just put a few shots through her after spraying some lube in the spring area...
I realize now that there is a pronounced squeaking when cocking and this despite the fact that the spring area is well lubed at the moment.. I assume this squeaking is not normal and could mean this gun needs a tear down and lube at a minimum...
Any thoughts?
Jim
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I just put a few shots through her after spraying some lube in the spring area...
I realize now that there is a pronounced squeaking when cocking and this despite the fact that the spring area is well lubed at the moment.. I assume this squeaking is not normal and could mean this gun needs a tear down and lube at a minimum...
Any thoughts?
Jim
If that sprayed "lube" was something like WD-40, or similar, the solvents in it may have started attacking parts, like your Seal !
Dave
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I just put a few shots through her after spraying some lube in the spring area...
I realize now that there is a pronounced squeaking when cocking and this despite the fact that the spring area is well lubed at the moment.. I assume this squeaking is not normal and could mean this gun needs a tear down and lube at a minimum...
Any thoughts?
Jim
I would recommend a drop of Chamber lube or 30 weight silicone oil in the chamber....then work the action a few times without cocking it. If it is the seal, the squeaking will stop. If it does not, you may have to tear it down and inspect it. If you suspect it is NOT the seal, but metal on metal. DO NOT try to cock it or move the action. It will require tear down, inspection and possibly corrective action.
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No WD40..it's some white lithium..the gun seemed dry in some places and was never quiet..
The squeaking was there all along and it's hard for me to be sure but it may simply be getting a little more pronounced as the gun was used, which btw due to work was not much...
Also this is my first adult springer and I am unsure, although learning what sounds and things are normal for a new gun and what is not..
So bottom line: I assume the squeaking is not normal for a new gun when cocking and the only real choice is to tear it down or have it done..?
Jim
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I would recommend a drop of Chamber lube or 30 weight silicone oil in the chamber....then work the action a few times without cocking it. If it is the seal, the squeaking will stop. If it does not, you may have to tear it down and inspect it. If you suspect it is NOT the seal, but metal on metal. DO NOT try to cock it or move the action. It will require tear down, inspection and possibly corrective action.
I am almost certain it's a metal to metal squeak... Gets a little louder as you get closer to the sear engaging...like squeeeeeeak click.. No idea where it's coming from and the spring and piston area from what I can see has a nice layer of lube on it..
Jim
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A good spring-piston design sounds and feels exactly like a heavy car hood with shock absorbers holding it up. Solid and almost no noise at all other than a compression noise and another when the mechanism finishes cocking and locks into place.
Listen to the sound one makes in the airgun reporter and similar online review videos. A constant piston compressing type of sound and a click at the end. If the gun you have is making sounds other than that, well, there's a reason it's so inexpensive. I know people gush on and on about these things, but you really do get what you pay for in airguns and firearms.
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Well my 125TH is definitely not silent save the click at the end when cocking. This post made me pay more attention to the sound and it seems to be getting a little more pronounced with each shot..
I emailed Joao letting him know the problem so I'll see what he says... Man, why couldn't I have just got one that isn't broken out of the darn box..? Quite the pain in the butt..
Jim
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If there is a tin shield there it does not belong there, they don't make them like that, some have had the same thing , the piston slots as well still having the thin shaven not competently and cleanly sheared off.
No reason to have the thin sleeve in that hatsan designs the piston space fairly tight with the spring inside it.
I suspect in my opinion some one, or several workers, or maybe many in hatsans factory floor are not doing there job.
That had to be installed by hand, and a visual inspection was not done on purpose. this is ludicrous for the different problems they have had.. especially that one.
I also blame the company s owner he should have better safe guards over his workers and his factory, it is very irritating to say the least, especially because I personally love there air rifles.
Makes one speculate just what the heck is going on in that factory, how is it run ? how are the workers attitude and how do they feel working there..
Things like this are being done because of specific reasons, this is not a opps or a mistake
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If there is a tin shield there it does not belong there, they don't make them like that, some have had the same thing , the piston slots as well still having the thin shaven not competently and cleanly sheared off.
No reason to have the thin sleeve in that hatsan designs the piston space fairly tight with the spring inside it.
I suspect in my opinion some one, or several workers, or maybe many in hatsans factory floor are not doing there job.
That had to be installed by hand, and a visual inspection was not done on purpose. this is ludicrous for the different problems they have had.. especially that one.
I also blame the company s owner he should have better safe guards over his workers and his factory, it is very irritating to say the least, especially because I personally love there air rifles.
Makes one speculate just what the heck is going on in that factory, how is it run ? how are the workers attitude and how do they feel working there..
Things like this are being done because of specific reasons, this is not a opps or a mistake
My thoughts exactly about the workers there. Someone does not care or there very understaffed just rushing through the process to keep up.
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Crosman anyone?? LOL.
Seriously though. Just send the rifle back, and be sure to describe what you have found, as well as make clear your disappointment. The more returns they get like that, the better the chances that they will get QC on the straight and narrow.
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It is being returned.
I could have just taken it apart myself, but there's no telling where the misc. shards of metal ended up and what possible damage they had done. At least with the replacement I know to tear it down to inspect, correct and lube. It's terrible to have to do that with a rifle out of the box, or risk damage, reguardless of the price.
As bad as I feel for my father, I'm glad it's not my rifle. I do however have to take care of any problems that probably will arise because he doesn't have the time to be working on a springer all night. He didn't want to spend over $150, but I should have talked him into an RWS 34 or something.
I came accross a vintage RWS 45 at the perfect time since I need a new CF tank for the PCPs. I love having a springer that I know I can shoot time and again without any worry of something going wrong.
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Good for you. I did tear mine down, but luckily, the damage is so severe that Hatsan is willing to consider replacing it even though I voided the warranty. The next one I will tear down before I even fire a shot and clean up, replace the seal, and lube it.
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Good for you. I did tear mine down, but luckily, the damage is so severe that Hatsan is willing to consider replacing it even though I voided the warranty. The next one I will tear down before I even fire a shot and clean up, replace the seal, and lube it.
Are the compression tubes finished so poorly that the piston seal is commonly damaged just from installation? Sheesh...I hope not!
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:(
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Good for you. I did tear mine down, but luckily, the damage is so severe that Hatsan is willing to consider replacing it even though I voided the warranty. The next one I will tear down before I even fire a shot and clean up, replace the seal, and lube it.
Are the compression tubes finished so poorly that the piston seal is commonly damaged just from installation? Sheesh...I hope not!
No! not at all. they are made very well.
the problem is with the person on the parts line they are not doing there job some one is screwing this up, weather it is small metal pieces inside the receiver, or the piston was not cleaned and honed to remove the metal shavens cleanly when it was made where the cocking slots are, or weather it is a rifle coming out totally over oiled on the outside or if its dry from lack of prosper lube.
You can bet your last dollar, when they designed those rifles and built there factory that everything was gone over with great detail.. you dont design and build innovative rifles with out integrity as well, the receiver are well made the pistons are heavy duty and well made the trigger is amazing etcc..
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No! not at all. they are made very well.
the problem is with the person on the parts line they are not doing there job some one is screwing this up, weather it is small metal pieces inside the receiver, or the piston was not cleaned and honed to remove the metal shavens cleanly when it was made where the cocking slots are, or weather it is a rifle coming out totally over oiled on the outside or if its dry from lack of prosper lube.
You can bet your last dollar, when they designed those rifles and built there factory that everything was gone over with great detail.. you dont design and build innovative rifles with out integrity as well, the receiver are well made the pistons are heavy duty and well made the trigger is amazing etcc..
Sounds like Sabotage!!!
Waiting to hear back from Joao....
@##$$%#@@#$ cheap air guns!!!
Jim
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I plan on thoroughly going over the replacement right off the bat. If the compression tube is so bad that the piston seal was damaged during installation, whether it be from burr or some other loose shaving, you can bet it will be further damaged as I pull it out for inspection as it runs over the burr. I'm going to be extremely PO'ed if I receive a rifle that is damaged right out of the box.
Fingers are crossed... It should be here in a couple days and I built a spring compressor today especially for the occasion (so sad when you find yourself building a compressor for a brand new springer >:().
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I plan on thoroughly going over the replacement right off the bat. If the compression tube is so bad that the piston seal was damaged during installation, whether it be from burr or some other loose shaving, you can bet it will be further damaged as I pull it out for inspection as it runs over the burr. I'm going to be extremely PO'ed if I receive a rifle that is damaged right out of the box.
Fingers are crossed... It should be here in a couple days and I built a spring compressor today especially for the occasion (so sad when you find yourself building a compressor for a brand new springer >:().
Who did you deal with to arrange the exchange?
Mine is squealing like a flute when you cock it...
I must say I am not real interested in going to air gun school in order to work on a brand new exchanged gun... Holy Christmas!!
Jim
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Hard to find an air rifle made in China, Turkey or Spain where they didn't leave edges where the compression tube slots were stamped out and the seal nicked or cut a little when put together. I've came to expect that on lower priced airguns.
Metal shavings are a different story and the worst is a small chuck of metal embedded in the end of the compression chamber around the wall. I had 2 pieces stuck in the bottom of the compression chamber on the 125th that I received. One was sticking up about 1/8 inch from the bottom and about 1/8 inch long. The other was much smaller. The larger chunk was cutting into the seal, which had me looking inside the tube for the cause. If you get one like this it would be very difficult to fix. I don't know if it was embedded metal or slag from where the breech end was welded onto the tube.
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Crosman anyone?? LOL.
Funny you should mention that. I ordered a Disco Sunday. I've had enough of this for now. ;D
I will say that my 125 Sniper is one of mine favorites now. But was allot of hassle and worry.
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No! not at all. they are made very well.
the problem is with the person on the parts line they are not doing there job some one is screwing this up, weather it is small metal pieces inside the receiver, or the piston was not cleaned and honed to remove the metal shavens cleanly when it was made where the cocking slots are, or weather it is a rifle coming out totally over oiled on the outside or if its dry from lack of prosper lube.
You can bet your last dollar, when they designed those rifles and built there factory that everything was gone over with great detail.. you dont design and build innovative rifles with out integrity as well, the receiver are well made the pistons are heavy duty and well made the trigger is amazing etcc..
Sounds like Sabotage!!!
Waiting to hear back from Joao....
@##$$%#@@#$ cheap air guns!!!
Jim
joao will tell you to email hatsan usa. i hope he doesn't but I think that's what he will do, everyone else does
yes my point exactly sounds like sabotage, sounds like workers are fed up and dont give a &^^&, and are simply say hey s k r e w u lol
and being it is a family owned business makes it worse, it should be the opposite, the rifles should be coming out like gems.. every one of them.
it is a shame all i can say is I am glad i know how to do my own work because then I can appreciate the hatsan I bought.. I love them
but on the other hand for those who dont know how to do there own work piff what a big let down, what a shame they have to buy something different and loose out on all the nice choices hatsan developed
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If you contact Hatsan USA, the President of the Company is Blaine Manifold ( yes, that is really his name )
Dave
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Crosman anyone?? LOL.
Funny you should mention that. I ordered a Disco Sunday. I've had enough of this for now. ;D
I will say that my 125 Sniper is one of mine favorites now. But was allot of hassle and worry.
I just can't reconcile myself to the expense and added hassle of pumps, tanks, fittings, and all the accessories that will eventually come with owning a PCP. $400.00 for a gun and hand pump, then another $500.00 OR EASILY MORE if I want to get a tank and mechanical pump. Nope...
A lot of folks say, "If you want power, just go to PCP and be done with it". But in my mind, if that were the case, just skip AG's altogether and get a 22 PB.
I brought up Crosman because its the same thing, no difference whatsoever. It's a business model, and Hatsan has design and marketing down, and apparently is taking a page from the Chinese for manufacturing, rather than emulating the Germans.
There is only one way to improve the build quality for Hatsan. They already have the design. In order to get the fit and finish, they have to add another step in the assembly process, and that means a final prep by hand before actual assembly. Pistons and compression tubes need to be deburred and smoothed, spring ends squared and smoothed, and all the miscellaneous small parts given a quick smoothing or polishing. They just won't get the clean assembly and reliable performance without it.
Problem is, that kind of attention to detail increases costs, which is why you pay more for say an RWS.
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Maybe a great business venture for some of you well expierenced rifle tuners. Sell "blueprinted" Hatsan air rifles,for the more serious customer...as in cleaned and smoothed,but stock components.
I looked at the Sniper 125,based on a couple of reviews I had read,and especially on Rick,of Airgunweb,comment on how well they were built and performance per dollar.
I had just gotten out of a new Ruger Air Magnum that was failing.
Hopefully my latest purchase will work out to be a good one. Only continued shooting will prove that out.
If and when it breaks,or pellet velocity starts to drop off rapidly,then maybe send it out for a gas piston install.
Going to enjoy it right now!
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I just can't reconcile myself to the expense and added hassle of pumps, tanks, fittings, and all the accessories that will eventually come with owning a PCP. $400.00 for a gun and hand pump, then another $500.00 OR EASILY MORE if I want to get a tank and mechanical pump. Nope...
A lot of folks say, "If you want power, just go to PCP and be done with it". But in my mind, if that were the case, just skip AG's altogether and get a 22 PB.
You left out the "electric pump" you need to buy, when you get tired of pumping the "mechanical pump" ... BIG BUCKS !
PCP's and all of their "support equipment" are not for me, either !
Dave
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Maybe a great business venture for some of you well expierenced rifle tuners. Sell "blueprinted" Hatsan air rifles,for the more serious customer...as in cleaned and smoothed,but stock components.
I looked at the Sniper 125,based on a couple of reviews I had read,and especially on Rick,of Airgunweb,comment on how well they were built and performance per dollar.
I had just gotten out of a new Ruger Air Magnum that was failing.
Hopefully my latest purchase will work out to be a good one. Only continued shooting will prove that out.
If and when it breaks,or pellet velocity starts to drop off rapidly,then maybe send it out for a gas piston install.
Going to enjoy it right now!
well look me up when you do, I plan on getting into this/ on the side// and I want to try to make it available at a price where people can afford.
by the time you add shipping both ways, a new jm seal alone could be 24.00 because his shipping is 9.00 if you ordered a seal.
and the 60.00 moller ram, and all the things used up during the process of degreasing, crosshatching, filing, making the good solid parts, for the ram, the proper molly lube and lubricants for everything else. paper towels gloves, sand papers, etc.. it all adds up quickly.
the testing // the barrel cleaning //the retesting //the re barrel cleaning, it is a lot of work it has to be done no different then if it was for my self, then boxed back up and taken to be shipped.
records have to be Kept , it goes on and on. so some how I want to find a balance, I want to see air gunners have a affordable place to get there conversions done, or lube tune .
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Maybe a great business venture for some of you well expierenced rifle tuners. Sell "blueprinted" Hatsan air rifles,for the more serious customer...as in cleaned and smoothed,but stock components.
I looked at the Sniper 125,based on a couple of reviews I had read,and especially on Rick,of Airgunweb,comment on how well they were built and performance per dollar.
I had just gotten out of a new Ruger Air Magnum that was failing.
Hopefully my latest purchase will work out to be a good one. Only continued shooting will prove that out.
If and when it breaks,or pellet velocity starts to drop off rapidly,then maybe send it out for a gas piston install.
Going to enjoy it right now!
That's too much of a investment to have rifles sit around waiting for some one who wants that particular model. it better just to send your rifle out to some one who does all that
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Maybe a great business venture for some of you well expierenced rifle tuners. Sell "blueprinted" Hatsan air rifles,for the more serious customer...as in cleaned and smoothed,but stock components.
I looked at the Sniper 125,based on a couple of reviews I had read,and especially on Rick,of Airgunweb,comment on how well they were built and performance per dollar.
I had just gotten out of a new Ruger Air Magnum that was failing.
Hopefully my latest purchase will work out to be a good one. Only continued shooting will prove that out.
If and when it breaks,or pellet velocity starts to drop off rapidly,then maybe send it out for a gas piston install.
Going to enjoy it right now!
That's too much of a investment to have rifles sit around waiting for some one who wants that particular model. it better just to send your rifle out to some one who does all that
Mike,
Have your customers "drop ship" their rifles to you, directly from the vendor they buy it from . . . Only one additional shipping cost that way !
Dave
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Maybe a great business venture for some of you well expierenced rifle tuners. Sell "blueprinted" Hatsan air rifles,for the more serious customer...as in cleaned and smoothed,but stock components.
I looked at the Sniper 125,based on a couple of reviews I had read,and especially on Rick,of Airgunweb,comment on how well they were built and performance per dollar.
I had just gotten out of a new Ruger Air Magnum that was failing.
Hopefully my latest purchase will work out to be a good one. Only continued shooting will prove that out.
If and when it breaks,or pellet velocity starts to drop off rapidly,then maybe send it out for a gas piston install.
Going to enjoy it right now!
That's too much of a investment to have rifles sit around waiting for some one who wants that particular model. it better just to send your rifle out to some one who does all that
Mike I think you can see the problem the "Pro tuners" face, here and other forums folk say things like good money and such. The fact of the matter is, there is very little money involved after the outlay in tooling and parts and let alone shipping. Imagine as well rifles coming back because the customer didn't like the result. If you can manage it you may make some change to fuel your hobby, but you don't want to even think about the potential liability as well....
At the factory level, did you get a chance to see the vid on FX where the owner was straightening barrels and testing them? Imagine Hatsan pushing a big lot of rifles through to get them into a shipping container back sometime prior to the shot show. Heck just look at the heat Joao ended up with a couple days delay due to truck freight.
As several of us have experienced, Hatsan needs to add some 100% QC checkpoints on their receivers. The guys assembling them from a stack of parts with absurd seal destroying burrs on the end and shavings from improper cleaning are just ridiculous. Somewhere in between FX's $1500 retail price and say 1/3 that for a Hatsan (in PCP anyway) should allow a reasonable QC level.
Mark
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I looked at these pictures and it looks like, the slot was never deburred after it was cut, or stamped, hence, when assembled, the 'edge' folded over and looks like a 'sleeve'.
"Sabotage?', it's poor workmanship for a company that's been producing, not just airguns, but Hatsan shotguns...from what I read since 1976.
1. Maybe they outsourced to China
2. Poor workmanship is happening to ALL the under $300 springer airguns, I don't have to name them!
I haven't read about poor workmanship on the German springers.
Myself, I want a gun that 'shoots', I'm not going to tear it down to "MAKE IT WORK".
To 'mod it', not a problem, but it's got to work right out of the box...
I
My free time will be better spent, ...SHOOTING" . PERIOD!
Do the math guys/girls, mucking around with these things is costing you more than just $$$$, TIME tear downs, searching for parts, returns, emails, surfing/reading ETC ETC!!
For me, PCP is the way to go, I haven't read about shoddy workmanship...yet!
An expense is needed to get started, pumps, tanks, or a compressor if you have that kind of money.
Scuba tanks can be filled just about anywhere! (Arizona, might be changeling)
Scuba tank and valve about $225, fills are about $12 some places offer 3 (or more) free fills when you buy a tank from them.
In my area (Raleigh NC) there are about 4 places to fill up.
I scuba, so I already have a tank.
A Disco with pump from Wally can be had for around $350.
Yeah, I'll still 'pump' my old pumper and struggle with my Crosman XL1100, which is shooting nicely, and maybe another nice springer to fool with.
But the 'force' is strong...on the "Darkside"!! 8)
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Maybe a great business venture for some of you well expierenced rifle tuners. Sell "blueprinted" Hatsan air rifles,for the more serious customer...as in cleaned and smoothed,but stock components.
I looked at the Sniper 125,based on a couple of reviews I had read,and especially on Rick,of Airgunweb,comment on how well they were built and performance per dollar.
I had just gotten out of a new Ruger Air Magnum that was failing.
Hopefully my latest purchase will work out to be a good one. Only continued shooting will prove that out.
If and when it breaks,or pellet velocity starts to drop off rapidly,then maybe send it out for a gas piston install.
Going to enjoy it right now!
That's too much of a investment to have rifles sit around waiting for some one who wants that particular model. it better just to send your rifle out to some one who does all that
Mike,
Have your customers "drop ship" their rifles to you, directly from the vendor they buy it from . . . Only one additional shipping cost that way !
Dave
if that's possible a lot of places you cant do that.
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I looked at these pictures and it looks like, the slot was never deburred after it was cut, or stamped, hence, when assembled, the 'edge' folded over and looks like a 'sleeve'.
"Sabotage?', it's poor workmanship for a company that's been producing, not just airguns, but Hatsan shotguns...from what I read since 1976.
1. Maybe they outsourced to China
2. Poor workmanship is happening to ALL the under $300 springer airguns, I don't have to name them!
I haven't read about poor workmanship on the German springers.
Myself, I want a gun that 'shoots', I'm not going to tear it down to "MAKE IT WORK".
To 'mod it', not a problem, but it's got to work right out of the box...
I
My free time will be better spent, ...SHOOTING" . PERIOD!
Do the math guys/girls, mucking around with these things is costing you more than just $$$$, TIME tear downs, searching for parts, returns, emails, surfing/reading ETC ETC!!
For me, PCP is the way to go, I haven't read about shoddy workmanship...yet!
An expense is needed to get started, pumps, tanks, or a compressor if you have that kind of money.
Scuba tanks can be filled just about anywhere! (Arizona, might be changeling)
Scuba tank and valve about $225, fills are about $12 some places offer 3 (or more) free fills when you buy a tank from them.
In my area (Raleigh NC) there are about 4 places to fill up.
I scuba, so I already have a tank.
A Disco with pump from Wally can be had for around $350.
Yeah, I'll still 'pump' my old pumper and struggle with my Crosman XL1100, which is shooting nicely, and maybe another nice springer to fool with.
But the 'force' is strong...on the "Darkside"!! 8)
hey hey hey there buck a roo'' Slow down there on the quick's drawl Mc drawl // whoo nelley ..lol
A lot of us guy's are into doing are own work that's why we got into air guns because of all the tinkering and learning and involvement be sides the shooting.
Yes you are supposed to buy and enjoy a well made item of course/ but obviously with air rifles there's always something that will need to be done, that they can benefit from new or not, that's just the way it is in the air gun springer world.
pcp is in its own department and something I may very well get into later when I am old.
Many of us guys love that aspect of cocking and closing that barrel having that hands on feeling and hearing the smooth cycle of a well tuned rifle, I know I do its like meditation for me when go out shooting
there's a place for everyone my friend
far as hatsan having over load orders to fill and maybe rushing them, That's there fault , and they will pay for there mistakes it is ridicules I know but it is what it is.
I am am so glad I can buy a hatsan because I can do my own work, I love there rifles uninformatively for those who can not it is a retun on its way back.
we are witnessing air gun history here with hastan .
A ) for coming out with cool, great, new designed air rifles, while all along they are screwing up there own products.. here and there on some models.. some models// interesting travesty to say the least
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I looked at these pictures and it looks like, the slot was never deburred after it was cut, or stamped, hence, when assembled, the 'edge' folded over and looks like a 'sleeve'.
"Sabotage?', it's poor workmanship for a company that's been producing, not just airguns, but Hatsan shotguns...from what I read since 1976.
1. Maybe they outsourced to China
2. Poor workmanship is happening to ALL the under $300 springer airguns, I don't have to name them!
I haven't read about poor workmanship on the German springers.
Myself, I want a gun that 'shoots', I'm not going to tear it down to "MAKE IT WORK".
To 'mod it', not a problem, but it's got to work right out of the box...
I
My free time will be better spent, ...SHOOTING" . PERIOD!
Do the math guys/girls, mucking around with these things is costing you more than just $$$$, TIME tear downs, searching for parts, returns, emails, surfing/reading ETC ETC!!
Couldn't agree more...
To all who are reading, it is my strong opinion that if you just want a budget springer to shoot around and maybe hunt a little with, and dont have know-how or time to completely go over the rifle out of the box, then look elsewhere. Atleast until Hatsan gets things sorted out on the production floor.
Regardless of the price, whether it be a $100 springer or $500+, an airgun should function properly right out of the box, without worry of doing any harm because of some unfinished parts.
Tearing down a springer to make it better(tune)...That's one thing.
Having to tear it down before the first shot because of shoddy machining...That's another, and shouldn't be tollerated.
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People can do some pretty scary things to PCP and CO2 airguns . . .
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2010/02/precharged-pneumatic-pcp-airgun-fears/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2010/02/precharged-pneumatic-pcp-airgun-fears/)
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1287991337/1288054085/Airgun+ignorance+is+dangerous!+%28even+more+pics+added%29+%28EDITED%29 (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1287991337/1288054085/Airgun+ignorance+is+dangerous!+%28even+more+pics+added%29+%28EDITED%29)
Click to ENLARGE . . .
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/uzielgal/Rapid7001.jpg)
Dave
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Maybe a great business venture for some of you well expierenced rifle tuners. Sell "blueprinted" Hatsan air rifles,for the more serious customer...as in cleaned and smoothed,but stock components.
I looked at the Sniper 125,based on a couple of reviews I had read,and especially on Rick,of Airgunweb,comment on how well they were built and performance per dollar.
I had just gotten out of a new Ruger Air Magnum that was failing.
Hopefully my latest purchase will work out to be a good one. Only continued shooting will prove that out.
If and when it breaks,or pellet velocity starts to drop off rapidly,then maybe send it out for a gas piston install.
Going to enjoy it right now!
That's too much of a investment to have rifles sit around waiting for some one who wants that particular model. it better just to send your rifle out to some one who does all that
Mike I think you can see the problem the "Pro tuners" face, here and other forums folk say things like good money and such. The fact of the matter is, there is very little money involved after the outlay in tooling and parts and let alone shipping. Imagine as well rifles coming back because the customer didn't like the result. If you can manage it you may make some change to fuel your hobby, but you don't want to even think about the potential liability as well....
At the factory level, did you get a chance to see the vid on FX where the owner was straightening barrels and testing them? Imagine Hatsan pushing a big lot of rifles through to get them into a shipping container back sometime prior to the shot show. Heck just look at the heat Joao ended up with a couple days delay due to truck freight.
As several of us have experienced, Hatsan needs to add some 100% QC checkpoints on their receivers. The guys assembling them from a stack of parts with absurd seal destroying burrs on the end and shavings from improper cleaning are just ridiculous. Somewhere in between FX's $1500 retail price and say 1/3 that for a Hatsan (in PCP anyway) should allow a reasonable QC level.
Mark
Hi Mark.
I didn't see any video.
it is totally ridicules what hatsan has done they come up with great innovative ideals, cool new rifles, then screw there own production up/ totally mind boggling to say the least.
I totally agree.
Yes I have much to think about when offering services for other GTA members
Far as Joao is concerned he may of been over his head or had his difficulties with his orders with hatsan.
All he had to do was be honest ,and tell the customer straight up My hatsan order was incorrect, I do not have your rifle . and simply offer to see if they wish to buy what he does have, or refund them there money.
But his practices of promising people the rifles they order, then shipping different items is totally arrogant and a waste of everyone's time.
GTA members share info with each others experiences so its easy to see what else he pulls on them as well. just ask white fang.
Joao sent me a rifle that I specifically stated on the phone with him, that I did not want, and he promised me a sniper in camo, and said i give it to you for the same price as the black sniper ok my friend. what did I get? I got a black sniper.. now I have my time, my money, and my disappointment of the entire experience.
Then you see other people like paul 68 get a different rifle just after you order yours and you know the'' man just lied to you on the phone. but on the phone its like oh i been having this problems you see and so hatstan mess up my orders
I am all willing to understand even forget a genuine miss hap/ but BS is BS
I don't like being verbally promised something then getting the wrong item then getting lied too on the phone before and after I received the wrong item
I let it go, I did not get mad after I called him and spoke to him, I listen to what he had to say, I even was willing to keep the rifle, until I changed my mind and returned it.
The bottom line is As much as I tried giving joao the benefit of the doubt, his own practices tells a different story. its that simple he needs a wake up call as well as hatsan does.
I am still waiting for my full refund as well //the rifle was at his door couple days ago!
I will buy another hatsan, but it will not be from joao American arms he single handily did that to him self
People are not stupid it does not take long before gta members get the info on dealers and how they conduct there business.
I was all for joao in the beginning I did not even say anything till now.
Only after having other members tell me there stories i felt to release my experience here
Sorry mark to unload you with that, I did not mean to
Mike
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Far from the topic at hand...and is totally avoided by using proper lubes, and not getting them where they shouldn't be.
Was it charged with pure oxygen?
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Mike, you are correct, there is a place for everyone.
The key words in my post were
"Myself..."
"My time..."
Just trying to post an 'alternative' or 'my view' from the lessons I've learned.
FOR ME, time is worth more than money!
For me, shooting is my first interest, modding them is #2
I also love the feel of 'well tuned gun'!
Fixing a busted product right out of the box isn't on MY list. I refuse to pay for someone elses "mistakes"
No matter what the 'brand'
For some, this is what they want or only know.
I just happened to post this on a Hatsan post, but I think I mentioned 'all...' "I don't have to name them' which covers a LARGE number of brands.
Read around, it's happening to a lot of airgun owners. Pick an airgun brand/name and look around at the posts. Shavings in the piston area, burrs, over oiled, un-lubed etc etc etc
I won't get into the "POI" or POA issues!
There are plenty of good guns on that list...'but'.
For me, I'll steer clear and wait for the dust to settle.
For some, there will be PLENTY of business!
I wish you well, you are in innovator and Hatsan should be paying you for that!
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I can fully understand the lure and also the sticker shock of PCP.
The perfect solution then, might be the a Discovery and to use it with CO2. CO2 is as simple to deal with as gong to your local paintball gun store and buying equipment from them as far as refills and tanks go. They are much less expensive as they are made to operate at far lower pressures. Given that the Discovery is designed to operate at far greater than CO2 pressures, even leaving it in a a place where it gets hot won't likely cause any problem. It's really a win-win situation and an easy solution to get you started into PCP.
BTW, a $120 "pony" tank is probably all you need. Get a good valve and you're good to go (I'm not a fan of hoses and prefer a direct connection) Less than $200 for HPA and about half that for CO2.
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Far from the topic at hand...and is totally avoided by using proper lubes, and not getting them where they shouldn't be.
Was it charged with pure oxygen?
Yes
Dave
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Mike, you are correct, there is a place for everyone.
The key words in my post were
"Myself..."
"My time..."
Just trying to post an 'alternative' or 'my view' from the lessons I've learned.
FOR ME, time is worth more than money!
For me, shooting is my first interest, modding them is #2
I also love the feel of 'well tuned gun'!
Fixing a busted product right out of the box isn't on MY list. I refuse to pay for someone elses "mistakes"
No matter what the 'brand'
For some, this is what they want or only know.
I just happened to post this on a Hatsan post, but I think I mentioned 'all...' "I don't have to name them' which covers a LARGE number of brands.
Read around, it's happening to a lot of airgun owners. Pick an airgun brand/name and look around at the posts. Shavings in the piston area, burrs, over oiled, un-lubed etc etc etc
I won't get into the "POI" or POA issues!
There are plenty of good guns on that list...'but'.
For me, I'll steer clear and wait for the dust to settle.
For some, there will be PLENTY of business!
I wish you well, you are in innovator and Hatsan should be paying you for that!
I understand,
one day I will get into pcp / its apart of the process while anyone's into air guns.
we are always looking to expand our interest, for me the pcp will be down the road.
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I can fully understand the lure and also the sticker shock of PCP.
The perfect solution then, might be the a Discovery and to use it with CO2. CO2 is as simple to deal with as gong to your local paintball gun store and buying equipment from them as far as refills and tanks go. They are much less expensive as they are made to operate at far lower pressures. Given that the Discovery is designed to operate at far greater than CO2 pressures, even leaving it in a a place where it gets hot won't likely cause any problem. It's really a win-win situation and an easy solution to get you started into PCP.
BTW, a $120 "pony" tank is probably all you need. Get a good valve and you're good to go (I'm not a fan of hoses and prefer a direct connection) Less than $200 for HPA and about half that for CO2.
yeah if I ever went to pcp it will not be with any co2 that's just a waste and expense
i remember when i bought the crosman 1068 or what ever that cool model was you know the cool inexpensive repeater
everyone enjoyed shoot 12 x each at a target. but i got sick of the co2 cartridges running out faster then they should so I sent it back.. but it was cool so maybe down the road I will get something.. buy then new cooler stuff will have come to the market
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Crosman anyone?? LOL.
Funny you should mention that. I ordered a Disco Sunday. I've had enough of this for now. ;D
I will say that my 125 Sniper is one of mine favorites now. But was allot of hassle and worry.
I just can't reconcile myself to the expense and added hassle of pumps, tanks, fittings, and all the accessories that will eventually come with owning a PCP. $400.00 for a gun and hand pump, then another $500.00 OR EASILY MORE if I want to get a tank and mechanical pump. Nope...
A lot of folks say, "If you want power, just go to PCP and be done with it". But in my mind, if that were the case, just skip AG's altogether and get a 22 PB.
I brought up Crosman because its the same thing, no difference whatsoever. It's a business model, and Hatsan has design and marketing down, and apparently is taking a page from the Chinese for manufacturing, rather than emulating the Germans.
There is only one way to improve the build quality for Hatsan. They already have the design. In order to get the fit and finish, they have to add another step in the assembly process, and that means a final prep by hand before actual assembly. Pistons and compression tubes need to be deburred and smoothed, spring ends squared and smoothed, and all the miscellaneous small parts given a quick smoothing or polishing. They just won't get the clean assembly and reliable performance without it.
Problem is, that kind of attention to detail increases costs, which is why you pay more for say an RWS.
Funny how you lump Crosman and Chinese rifles all together with the issues Hatsan is having. I have no complains about my Trail NP or TechForce 89. Once Hatsan gets the metal bits out of their chambers and cleans out all the shavings I won't have a complaint with them, other than some iffy barrel finishing.
I know I won't have to tear the Disco down before shooting it and if I was buying a new springer in the 16-18 FPE range it would be the NPSS hands down.
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Crosman anyone?? LOL.
Funny you should mention that. I ordered a Disco Sunday. I've had enough of this for now. ;D
I will say that my 125 Sniper is one of mine favorites now. But was allot of hassle and worry.
I just can't reconcile myself to the expense and added hassle of pumps, tanks, fittings, and all the accessories that will eventually come with owning a PCP. $400.00 for a gun and hand pump, then another $500.00 OR EASILY MORE if I want to get a tank and mechanical pump. Nope...
A lot of folks say, "If you want power, just go to PCP and be done with it". But in my mind, if that were the case, just skip AG's altogether and get a 22 PB.
I brought up Crosman because its the same thing, no difference whatsoever. It's a business model, and Hatsan has design and marketing down, and apparently is taking a page from the Chinese for manufacturing, rather than emulating the Germans.
There is only one way to improve the build quality for Hatsan. They already have the design. In order to get the fit and finish, they have to add another step in the assembly process, and that means a final prep by hand before actual assembly. Pistons and compression tubes need to be deburred and smoothed, spring ends squared and smoothed, and all the miscellaneous small parts given a quick smoothing or polishing. They just won't get the clean assembly and reliable performance without it.
Problem is, that kind of attention to detail increases costs, which is why you pay more for say an RWS.
Funny how you lump Crosman and Chinese rifles all together with the issues Hatsan is having. I have no complains about my Trail NP or TechForce 89. Once Hatsan gets the metal bits out of their chambers and cleans out all the shavings I won't have a complaint with them, other than some iffy barrel finishing.
I know I won't have to tear the Disco down before shooting it and if I was buying a new springer in the 16-18 FPE range it would be the NPSS hands down.
Not so funny when you consider the numerous complaints of torn up seals, metal bits, bad pivots, malfunctioning gas springs, bad barrels, and everything else VERY commonly noted about Crosman products here on these very forums. There's a reason folks have thought to make bushing kits for the barrel pivots and drop in triggers, and even the old hand tuners here have said themselves they expect to have to break Crosman springers down to clean up the poor build quality and get the proper performance from them. Lumping them together isn't difficult, when the majority of Crosman products are Chinese made and the problems very similar.
Personally, all but one of my 5 rifles are Chinese clones. And every one of them had at the very least a damaged seal, and in all but 1 case metal shavings either in the action or embedded in the seal. And now we are seeing the exact same thing with Hatsans in at least 3 cases with brand new rifles, again here on these forums.
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How does the process of getting Hatsan parts compare with well-known Crosman process?
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How does the process of getting Hatsan parts compare with well-known Crosman process?
There is not so much as a screw available.....
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 10:00 AM, info@hatsanusa.com <info@hatsanusa.com> wrote:
Thank youfor your interest in Hatsan airgun products. Unfortunately, for
reasons of liability, Hatsan USA is unable to sell parts to individuals.
Your gun may be returned to: Hatsan USA
1300 Milassa Sr. #124
Bentonville, AR 72712
"Like" HatsanUSA on Facebook for roduct updates, news,and other valuable
information.
-
Guys, stick with springers, because if you ever will get a PCP your beloved springers will never look the same :) ..not even close , LOL
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Guys, stick with springers, because if you ever will get a PCP your beloved springers will never look the same :) ..not even close , LOL
Our WALLETS will "never look the same", if we start buying PCP's !
Dave
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Not necessary, once you have made the investment on the pump (250-280 bucks ), the guns aren't that expensive,...but boy, can't even touch power and accuracy of PCPs with no springer ;)
-
Crosman anyone?? LOL.
Funny you should mention that. I ordered a Disco Sunday. I've had enough of this for now. ;D
I will say that my 125 Sniper is one of mine favorites now. But was allot of hassle and worry.
I just can't reconcile myself to the expense and added hassle of pumps, tanks, fittings, and all the accessories that will eventually come with owning a PCP. $400.00 for a gun and hand pump, then another $500.00 OR EASILY MORE if I want to get a tank and mechanical pump. Nope...
A lot of folks say, "If you want power, just go to PCP and be done with it". But in my mind, if that were the case, just skip AG's altogether and get a 22 PB.
I brought up Crosman because its the same thing, no difference whatsoever. It's a business model, and Hatsan has design and marketing down, and apparently is taking a page from the Chinese for manufacturing, rather than emulating the Germans.
There is only one way to improve the build quality for Hatsan. They already have the design. In order to get the fit and finish, they have to add another step in the assembly process, and that means a final prep by hand before actual assembly. Pistons and compression tubes need to be deburred and smoothed, spring ends squared and smoothed, and all the miscellaneous small parts given a quick smoothing or polishing. They just won't get the clean assembly and reliable performance without it.
Problem is, that kind of attention to detail increases costs, which is why you pay more for say an RWS.
Funny how you lump Crosman and Chinese rifles all together with the issues Hatsan is having. I have no complains about my Trail NP or TechForce 89. Once Hatsan gets the metal bits out of their chambers and cleans out all the shavings I won't have a complaint with them, other than some iffy barrel finishing.
I know I won't have to tear the Disco down before shooting it and if I was buying a new springer in the 16-18 FPE range it would be the NPSS hands down.
Not so funny when you consider the numerous complaints of torn up seals, metal bits, bad pivots, malfunctioning gas springs, bad barrels, and everything else VERY commonly noted about Crosman products here on these very forums. There's a reason folks have thought to make bushing kits for the barrel pivots and drop in triggers, and even the old hand tuners here have said themselves they expect to have to break Crosman springers down to clean up the poor build quality and get the proper performance from them. Lumping them together isn't difficult, when the majority of Crosman products are Chinese made and the problems very similar.
Personally, all but one of my 5 rifles are Chinese clones. And every one of them had at the very least a damaged seal, and in all but 1 case metal shavings either in the action or embedded in the seal. And now we are seeing the exact same thing with Hatsans in at least 3 cases with brand new rifles, again here on these forums.
Everyone here knows about nicked seals, de-burring and lubing Chinese springers. Small metal flakes in the seals and chamber I can deal with. This is not even close to what is happening in the Hatsan Springers. Didn't you get the 125 with a ruined compression chamber? I have yet to see a post of Chinese rifle with a ruined chamber due to metal shaving.
Bad pivots - come on, really.. I have yet to have a bad pivot. Clean, grease and tighten the bolt. Just because someone made upgraded pivot bushings does not mean much to me. I checked mine guns and decided I didn't need this "upgrade".
Malfunctioning gas springs - I have yet to even hear confirmation of one getting weak.
Bad barrels - people say bad barrels when they can't shoot a group. How did they remove all the variables that can cause this to be sure it's the barrel.
Everything else VERY commonly noted about Crosman products - LOL, What. We read the same forum?
You may have noticed I took your "Crosman Anyone" as a complement to Crosman because it should have been common knowledge that you won't have all the problems Hatsan is having. You can get a bad one with any, but your chances of getting a dud is much less if you stick with a well established brand.
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Mine is an extreme example. We aren't seeing a lot of Hatsans with damaged compression chambers, but we are seeing what at this point looks like consistently poor QC leading to the same trend in that a tear down, cleaning and lubing is REQUIRED if you want to avoid problems and ensure proper performance. And a lot of this is due to damaged seals, and debris in the reciever, which is common with Crosman and Chinese products. That to me is EXACTLY the same as Crosman and Chinese rifles.
"Just because someone made upgraded pivot bushings does not mean much to me. I checked mine guns and decided I didn't need this "upgrade"."
The fact that someone made the bushings for a specific model range for a specfic brand, "Gene" says it is a recurring enough problem that it merited the effort and held potential to be profitable. Have you missed the usual advice to new owners of Crosman springers to get the GRT trigger and Bushing kit straight away? Why would this be? Just an arbitrary suggestion to help Gene make a buck, or one born out of a recurring and common problem? Your bushings have been fine? Mine weren't, and had to be replaced. Fact is, plastic washers on a high stress, high friction pivot point simply are not a good idea, and DO create problems as evidenced in many problems with loose barrels and poor accuracy and the well known brass bushing fix.
"Malfunctioning gas springs - I have yet to even hear confirmation of one getting weak."
Do we read the same forum indeed? There are at least two recent threads about this.
"The NPSS is the least hold-sensitive of all of them. It is also the most accurate. It was the quietest of the three, but the gas piston cushion deteriorated, and jammed up in the tube."- sam_bennett
"symptoms of failing nitro piston?- "... was the nitro piston. Have a replacement installed, and she's doing great."- Microsalmo
"Bad barrels - people say bad barrels when they can't shoot a group."
And there are plenty of cases of bent barrels, and barrels with incosistent bores, poor crowns, hence the common understanding that some models simply come with a "bad" barrel occasionally. Again, there are current threads about this.
Look, everything I have outlined is EASILY noted by perusing the Crosman gate. I started to collect links to threads full of examples, but soon realized it wasn't worth the time it would take (not hard to find, just too many examples). You can disimiss poor performance as simple user error, or believe that because you got lucky and haven't experienced the problems that they don't exist, however, for all the folks who are having the problems and seeking help with them in the Crosman gate, that isn't very convincing. And you certainly aren't going to convince somone who HAS dealt with them they don't exist (Me).
Below are pictures of my Hatsan, Storm and Ruger Airhawk seals. All had metal in the compression chambers. The first two are Storm and AirHawk, last two Hatsan. Looks very much like siblings from the same family eh? Cheap springers are plagued with QC problems, that's just a reality. One that should not exist considering the nature of these problems and how easily they could be addressed.
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Not necessary, once you have made the investment on the pump (250-280 bucks ), the guns aren't that expensive,...but boy, can't even touch power and accuracy of PCPs with no springer ;)
Maybe someone will come up with a Belt-Fed, Full-Auto PCP . . .
Then we could run around the wood,"playing Rambo", looking like an SCBA-equipped Fireman with a SCUBA Tank strapped on our back !
Gimme 600 - 700 rounds per minute and high-capacity . . .
LOL!
Dave
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Not necessary, once you have made the investment on the pump (250-280 bucks ), the guns aren't that expensive,...but boy, can't even touch power and accuracy of PCPs with no springer ;)
For my next project gun I came up with an idea for taking a Steroid 392 and adding a large air reservoir in the stock, essentially adding a PCP option to the 392.. With the extra air on board and the on board pump you can pump her up anywhere and then either just pump her once or twice between shots to keep up the power or not pump at all if you need to save time for a follow-up shot.. Lots of add ons possible as well..... No recoil, light weight, good power and minimal pumping in the field to me may be the ultimate air gun..
Meanwhile I await a response from HatsanUSA on my squeaky 125TH...
Jim
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Mine is an extreme example. We aren't seeing a lot of Hatsans with damaged compression chambers, but we are seeing what at this point looks like consistently poor QC leading to the same trend in that a tear down, cleaning and lubing is REQUIRED if you want to avoid problems and ensure proper performance. And a lot of this is due to damaged seals, and debris in the reciever, which is common with Crosman and Chinese products. That to me is EXACTLY the same as Crosman and Chinese rifles.
"Just because someone made upgraded pivot bushings does not mean much to me. I checked mine guns and decided I didn't need this "upgrade"."
The fact that someone made the bushings for a specific model range for a specfic brand, "Gene" says it is a recurring enough problem that it merited the effort and held potential to be profitable. Have you missed the usual advice to new owners of Crosman springers to get the GRT trigger and Bushing kit straight away? Why would this be? Just an arbitrary suggestion to help Gene make a buck, or one born out of a recurring and common problem? Your bushings have been fine? Mine weren't, and had to be replaced. Fact is, plastic washers on a high stress, high friction pivot point simply are not a good idea, and DO create problems as evidenced in many problems with loose barrels and poor accuracy and the well known brass bushing fix.
"Malfunctioning gas springs - I have yet to even hear confirmation of one getting weak."
Do we read the same forum indeed? There are at least two recent threads about this.
"The NPSS is the least hold-sensitive of all of them. It is also the most accurate. It was the quietest of the three, but the gas piston cushion deteriorated, and jammed up in the tube."- sam_bennett
"symptoms of failing nitro piston?- "... was the nitro piston. Have a replacement installed, and she's doing great."- Microsalmo
"Bad barrels - people say bad barrels when they can't shoot a group."
And there are plenty of cases of bent barrels, and barrels with incosistent bores, poor crowns, hence the common understanding that some models simply come with a "bad" barrel occasionally. Again, there are current threads about this.
Look, everything I have outlined is EASILY noted by perusing the Crosman gate. I started to collect links to threads full of examples, but soon realized it wasn't worth the time it would take (not hard to find, just too many examples). You can disimiss poor performance as simple user error, or believe that because you got lucky and haven't experienced the problems that they don't exist, however, for all the folks who are having the problems and seeking help with them in the Crosman gate, that isn't very convincing. And you certainly aren't going to convince somone who HAS dealt with them they don't exist (Me).
Makes me wonder if ALL of them with similar problems are coming from the SAME factory!
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Makes me wonder if ALL of them with similar problems are coming from the SAME factory!
Well actually that's an important aspect, BAM makes the Crosman (import) & Stoeger air guns. Many share the same underlying B19 design yet Stoeger seems to demand better QC, at least by customer online complaints. (Could be just shear volume 100 Crosman's sold to each Stoeger).
One aspect that made sense to me in the blue book of airguns. They say that despite "Sears" branded airguns being the same basic Crosman, the "best effort" was made on QC for the rebrand as the Sears buyer might reject a lot on delivery OR if enough returns take place the remainder sent back. So the factory made sure the rifles where good before shipping, and consequently the Sears branded Crosman is more sought after.
The Umarex Ruger XS60 CO2 gun was a recent failure. They advertised in advance and Xisco had the whole thing rejected for build issues. The did ship some rebranded underlever's under the Browning name though. It kinda depends on the Buyer for the brand what they will accept.
In the case of Hatsan, I think the ball got rolling the delivery dates set and they rushed to get the rifles here. The Hatsan's do not have that great a QC rep as a rebrander nor from what I can tell selling direct in East Europe. They are known for their balls to the wall performance.
I hope Hatsan USA is able to delicately direct the factory to revamp their QC check points even if it takes 100% sample rate on some key elements before assembly. This has Yugo/Lada all over it. A 95 with a big ol chip destroying the seal in the reciever is like getting a Lada with choice leather interior.
Mark
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Often you have a situation where there are literally several companies in a single city or two that are doing all of this work. They all share the same labor pool and the same designs between themselves as a rule. When One has an issue, they change the name or re-do the process a bit, but business goes on as usual.
Sometimes it's the same factory making the food or item with a completely different face that's then sent to the exporter who lies.
The main problem with China is that it has no laws or legal means to deal with problems once they cross its borders. So that means that they could literally ship you an airgun made with metal from old radioactive medical waste and there would be nothing you could do about it. If they can get away with anything, well, they simply do - it's human nature. Witness the old stories of early U.S. and U.K. factories that used child labor a hundred years ago.
Compare that with Germany or even Spain and you get a completely different picture. I personally have no issue with Chinese airguns, but making a proper airgun is a very specialized process that requires years of training and knowledge - even from the people working at the factory. Something like a Crosman CO2 rifle is dead-simple by comparison and is well within their abilities to properly manufacture. At worst, you replace a couple of seals and 10 minutes later, you're good to go.
One last thing about the Discovery and CO2. It doesn't use 12gr powerlets, and you can get hundreds of shots out of a rather small 6oz tank. Let alone a larger air tank (filled with CO2 instead) that you fill the Discovery from.
Pyramid air sells a 20 oz CO2 tank for $26. This is good for about 600-700 shots out of a Discovery.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/co2-tank-20-oz-refillable-ships-empty?a=183 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/co2-tank-20-oz-refillable-ships-empty?a=183)
When I say it is a fraction of the cost, I'm not kidding. At a few dollars per fill it's less efficient than HPA, but it's going to take the average shooter years to make up the price difference, since the 3000PSI tanks are very pricey and so is , well, everything else associated with them.(for good reason - it's a lot more dangerous than 800-1200psi)
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I suppose my main issue is that Hatsan has been promoted as "listening to the enthusiast", "learning from the past", and all around having better quality. Part of me is biased since my first dealing with Hatsan ended in a dismal failure. Of course, others are doing quite well with theirs, which tells me it is not a lost cause. However, given that I am not the only one and the problems appear consistent, I cannot help but feel this is just another case of business as usual in the AG industry.
I'll simply continue as I have, tearing em down and cleaning em up as I get em, and avoid as much of the hassle as possible that way.
I sent out my 125TH this morning to Hatsan, and to their credit, they have offered to make good on the problem despite my having opened the gun (obvious manufacture defect though it be) so I can't honestly down the company. I truly believe though that it is better to add another layer to the QC process and tack on a bit more to the cost than it is to risk reputation and customer loyalty with returns and unhappy customers.
In Hatsan's case this is magnified twofold due to there being a non-existent parts supply besides seals from JM and perhaps custom made parts. Those who recieve defective Hatsans, have little recourse besides sending it back, which adds expense, oe trying to spend even more on higher priced or difficult custom work and parts.
Now, if Hatsan were to begin opening a parts supply line, QC could be a much more easily accepted problem at their price level.
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Well I can only speak with experiences we've had with Hatsan here in New Zealand... They've been sold here for many years now and it seems that Hatsan in the USA it is a new'ish thing/brand. I can tell you that they HAVE had problems galore with damaged and moreso with poor fitting seals and in a big way. I thought it was all over with and things were on the mend as the numbers of these cases are dropping. I own one Hatsan which was affected by this phenomena (undersize seal) and luckily it was caught and fixed but only after quite a number of shots were fired through the rifle, lucky for me it didn't suffer some of the horror stories I'd heard about other Hatsans - broken springs,, smashed pistons etc etc.
The first signs are - excessive rceoil both rearward and especially forward,, rifle trying to leap out of your hands when fired,, poor accuracy,, velocity inconsistency (chronied),, excessive noise from within when fired in both bang from piston moving forward too fast and twang from the spring following it with little or no air cushioning... If you are getting any or all of the above, just start to take note of it and if it gets worse, then it may well be that yours too is suffering from a poor ftiing or dmamged seal... In the past Hatsan had made seals which were too small,, very well known problem in the past. Now it may well be just poor assembly or excessive metal shavings or jusy QC in general which is the cause of concern...
I am hoping that the undersized seasl is a thing of the past...
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The President of HatsanUSA is "BLAINE MANIFOLD" ( yes, his real name ) . . .
http://hatsanusa.com/ (http://hatsanusa.com/)
Dave
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I still have not heard back from Blaine... Ahhh ohhh....
Thinking of changing my name to Jim Plasma Cannon....
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I don't think the seals are undersized now. Very tight fitting in the last 2 125s.
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Guys, stick with springers, because if you ever will get a PCP your beloved springers will never look the same :) ..not even close , LOL
Our WALLETS will "never look the same", if we start buying PCP's !
Dave
LOL, the reason the wallets will never look the same is because you wont be able to stop buying PCPs once you start,...Beware, enter the DarkSide at your onw risk :)
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LOL, the reason the wallets will never look the same is because you wont be able to stop buying PCPs once you start,...Beware, enter the DarkSide at your onw risk :)
Maybe someone will come up with a Belt-Fed, Full-Auto PCP . . .
Then we could run around the woods, "playing Rambo", looking like an SCBA-equipped Fireman with a SCUBA Tank strapped on our back !
Gimme 600 - 700 rounds per minute and high-capacity . . .
LOL!
Dave
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They do that already in Airsoft games :)
Now,......... With PCPs we are talking serious Killers, not toys :) :)
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I suppose my main issue is that Hatsan has been promoted as "listening to the enthusiast", "learning from the past", and all around having better quality. Part of me is biased since my first dealing with Hatsan ended in a dismal failure. Of course, others are doing quite well with theirs, which tells me it is not a lost cause. However, given that I am not the only one and the problems appear consistent, I cannot help but feel this is just another case of business as usual in the AG industry.
The thing is, that many companies think of these as kids guns or novelties and don't realize that a typical gunsmith would be hard pressed to build a spring-piston gun as the tolerances and materials required to do it right are way beyond what they usually deal with when making firearms. That is, until they start making their guns and it hits them in the face that this is "really hard stuff". They try their best but they simply don't have the experience or skills to make it come close to what companies like Wiehrauch and RWS make. 100+ years of experience is not just for show. It took them decades to get it right.
A company like Hatsan tries to expand their business and my guess is that they hit a wall. It's not a case of poor quality so much as they simply are in unknown territory and trying the best that they can with labor and tools that aren't obviously up to the task at hand.
Now, a typical gunsmith or firearms manufacturer CAN build a PCP gun pretty easily. And many do. Most of the big fancy custom guns are... yep, PCPs. Spring-piston guns are not so simple, though, and unfortunately, this reinforces that you simply have to buy from a UK or German company and not cut corners if you want one.
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Hatsan has been making airguns for several years, and makes everything from low end springers to high end PCP's.
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Hatsan has been making airguns for several years, and makes everything from low end springers to high end PCP's.
Shotguns seem to be their thing
http://www.hatsan.com.tr/escort_shotguns.asp (http://www.hatsan.com.tr/escort_shotguns.asp)
http://www.hatsan.com.tr/optima.asp (http://www.hatsan.com.tr/optima.asp)
Unlike the crappy practice of most recognized firearm branded guns, Hatsan actually make their airguns/shotguns.
I can see Ruger, Browning et all, letting someone label chewing gum or something innocuous , but its "dang" tragic these companies have sub par QC offshore airguns being sold in big box stores under their name.
Mark
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Hatasan's PCPs are great. So are their firearms. But a spring-piston is, well, like a grandfather clock. It takes special knowledge, tools, and skills that even a typical shop that sells and repairs watches and clocks doesn't have. Or if we're talking about music, it's like building electric guitars and then deciding to start making acoustics. Congratulations, you just hit a brick wall. There's a reason Fender doesn't make what Martin makes, and vice-versa. It might both be a "guitar" to the average person or investor in a company looking to start one, but it's really two different worlds.
IME, the basic rule is to simply avoid spring-piston airguns from a company that doesn't make them as their main business. And to just tear out the pages and ignore them in the catalog of companies that add them in to "complete" their offerings. Get their PCPs, pneumatic, and CO2 rifles instead - those are almost always fine.
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Spring-piston guns are not so simple, though, and unfortunately, this reinforces that you simply have to buy from a UK or German company and not cut corners if you want one.
WEBLEY's are now made by HATSAN . . .
Dave
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I was talking about Theoben, since Webley, has been bought out by foreign debtors and is all but dead. But they are also outsourcing some things as is RWS, so where it's made is important.