Hatsan 95 has taken a turn for the worse. (Pics added on new post)

[john]

How does the process of getting Hatsan parts compare with well-known Crosman process?

[huklbery]

How does the process of getting Hatsan parts compare with well-known Crosman process?

There is not so much as a screw available.....


On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 10:00 AM, info@hatsanusa.com <info@hatsanusa.com> wrote:
Thank youfor your interest in Hatsan airgun products.  Unfortunately, for
reasons of liability, Hatsan USA is unable to sell parts to individuals.
Your gun may be returned to: Hatsan USA
                       1300 Milassa Sr. #124
                       Bentonville, AR 72712

"Like" HatsanUSA on Facebook for roduct updates, news,and other valuable
information.

[Nomadic Pirate]

Guys, stick with springers, because if you ever will get a PCP your beloved springers will never look the same ..not even close , LOL

[Tarheel]

Guys, stick with springers, because if you ever will get a PCP your beloved springers will never look the same ..not even close , LOL

Our WALLETS will "never look the same", if we start buying PCP's !

Dave

[Nomadic Pirate]

Not necessary, once you have made the investment on the pump (250-280 bucks ), the guns aren't that expensive,...but boy, can't even touch power and accuracy of PCPs with no springer

[Charles Outdoors]

Crosman anyone?? LOL.

Funny you should mention that. I ordered a Disco Sunday. I've had enough of this for now.   

I will say that my 125 Sniper is one of mine favorites now.  But was allot of hassle and worry.

I just can't reconcile myself to the expense and added hassle of pumps, tanks, fittings, and all the accessories that will eventually come with owning a PCP. $400.00 for a gun and hand pump, then another $500.00 OR EASILY MORE if I want to get a tank and mechanical pump. Nope...

A lot of folks say, "If you want power, just go to PCP and be done with it". But in my mind, if that were the case, just skip AG's altogether and get a 22 PB.

I brought up Crosman because its the same thing, no difference whatsoever. It's a business model, and Hatsan has design and marketing down, and apparently is taking a page from the Chinese for manufacturing, rather than emulating the Germans.

There is only one way to improve the build quality for Hatsan. They already have the design. In order to get the fit and finish, they have to add another step in the assembly process, and that means a final prep by hand before actual assembly. Pistons and compression tubes need to be deburred and smoothed, spring ends squared and smoothed, and all the miscellaneous small parts given a quick smoothing or polishing. They just won't get the clean assembly and reliable performance without it.

Problem is, that kind of attention to detail increases costs, which is why you pay more for say an RWS.

Funny how you lump Crosman and Chinese rifles all together with the issues Hatsan is having. I have no complains about my Trail NP or TechForce 89. Once Hatsan gets the metal bits out of their chambers and cleans out all the shavings I won't have a complaint with them, other than some iffy barrel finishing. 
I know I won't have to tear the Disco down before shooting it and if I was buying a new springer in the 16-18 FPE range it would be the NPSS hands down.

Not so funny when you consider the numerous complaints of torn up seals, metal bits, bad pivots, malfunctioning gas springs, bad barrels, and everything else VERY commonly noted about Crosman products here on these very forums. There's a reason folks have thought to make bushing kits for the barrel pivots and drop in triggers, and even the old hand tuners here have said themselves they expect to have to break Crosman springers down to clean up the poor build quality and get the proper performance from them. Lumping them together isn't difficult, when the majority of Crosman products are  Chinese made and the problems very similar.

Personally, all but one of my 5 rifles are Chinese clones. And every one of them had at the very least a damaged seal, and in all but 1 case metal shavings either in the action or embedded in the seal. And now we are seeing the exact same thing with Hatsans in at least 3 cases with brand new rifles, again here on these forums.

Everyone here knows about nicked seals, de-burring and lubing Chinese springers. Small metal flakes in the seals and chamber I can deal with. This is not even close to what is happening in the Hatsan Springers. Didn't you get the 125 with a ruined compression chamber? I have yet to see a post of Chinese rifle with a ruined chamber due to metal shaving.

Bad pivots - come on, really.. I have yet to have a bad pivot. Clean, grease and tighten the bolt.  Just because someone made upgraded pivot bushings does not mean much to me. I checked mine guns and decided I didn't need this "upgrade".
Malfunctioning gas springs - I have yet to even hear confirmation of one getting weak.
Bad barrels - people say bad barrels when they can't shoot a group. How did they remove all the variables that can cause this to be sure it's the barrel.
Everything else VERY commonly noted about Crosman products - LOL, What. We read the same forum?

You may have noticed I took your "Crosman Anyone" as a complement to Crosman because it should have been common knowledge that you won't have all the problems Hatsan is having. You can get a bad one with any, but your chances of getting a dud is much less if you stick with a well established brand.
   

 

[Paul68]

Mine is an extreme example. We aren't seeing a lot of Hatsans with damaged compression chambers, but we are seeing what at this point looks like consistently poor QC leading to the same trend in that a tear down, cleaning and lubing is REQUIRED if you want to avoid problems and ensure proper performance. And a lot of this is due to damaged seals, and debris in the reciever, which is common with Crosman and Chinese products.  That to me is EXACTLY the same as Crosman and Chinese rifles.



"Just because someone made upgraded pivot bushings does not mean much to me. I checked mine guns and decided I didn't need this "upgrade"."


The fact that someone made the bushings for a specific model range for a specfic brand, "Gene" says it is a recurring enough problem that it merited the effort and held potential to be profitable.  Have you missed the usual advice to new owners of Crosman springers to get the GRT trigger and Bushing kit straight away? Why would this be? Just an arbitrary suggestion to help Gene make a buck, or one born out of a recurring and common problem?  Your bushings have been fine? Mine weren't, and had to be replaced. Fact is, plastic washers on a high stress, high friction pivot point simply are not a good idea, and DO create problems as evidenced in many problems with loose barrels and poor accuracy and the well known brass bushing fix.



"Malfunctioning gas springs - I have yet to even hear confirmation of one getting weak."


Do we read the same forum indeed? There are at least two recent threads about this.

"The NPSS is the least hold-sensitive of all of them.  It is also the most accurate.  It was the quietest of the three, but the gas piston cushion deteriorated, and jammed up in the tube."- sam_bennett

"symptoms of failing nitro piston?- "... was the nitro piston. Have a replacement installed, and she's doing great."- Microsalmo



"Bad barrels - people say bad barrels when they can't shoot a group."


And there are plenty of cases of bent barrels, and barrels with incosistent bores, poor crowns, hence the common understanding that some models simply come with a "bad" barrel occasionally. Again, there are current threads about this.

Look, everything I have outlined is EASILY noted by perusing the Crosman gate. I started to collect links to threads full of examples, but soon realized it wasn't worth the time it would take (not hard to find, just too many examples). You can disimiss poor performance as simple user error, or believe that because you got lucky and haven't experienced the problems that they don't exist, however, for all the folks who are having the problems and seeking help with them in the Crosman gate, that isn't very convincing. And you certainly aren't going to convince somone who HAS dealt with them they don't exist (Me).

 

Below are pictures of my Hatsan, Storm and Ruger Airhawk seals. All had metal in the compression chambers. The first two are Storm and AirHawk, last two Hatsan. Looks very much like siblings from the same family eh? Cheap springers are plagued with QC problems, that's just a reality. One that should not exist considering the nature of these problems and how easily they could be addressed.



 

 

[Tarheel]

Not necessary, once you have made the investment on the pump (250-280 bucks ), the guns aren't that expensive,...but boy, can't even touch power and accuracy of PCPs with no springer

Maybe someone will come up with a Belt-Fed, Full-Auto PCP . . .

Then we could run around the wood,"playing Rambo", looking like an SCBA-equipped Fireman with a SCUBA Tank strapped on our back !

Gimme 600 - 700 rounds per minute and high-capacity . . .

LOL!

Dave

[Trondyne]

Not necessary, once you have made the investment on the pump (250-280 bucks ), the guns aren't that expensive,...but boy, can't even touch power and accuracy of PCPs with no springer

For my next project gun I came up with an idea for taking a Steroid 392 and adding a large air reservoir in the stock, essentially adding a PCP option to the 392..  With the extra air on board and the on board pump you can pump her up anywhere and then either just pump her once or twice between shots to keep up the power or not pump at all if you need to save time for a follow-up shot..  Lots of add ons possible as well.....  No recoil, light weight, good power and minimal pumping in the field to me may be the ultimate air gun..

Meanwhile I await a response from HatsanUSA on my squeaky 125TH...

Jim

[Fishbone]

Mine is an extreme example. We aren't seeing a lot of Hatsans with damaged compression chambers, but we are seeing what at this point looks like consistently poor QC leading to the same trend in that a tear down, cleaning and lubing is REQUIRED if you want to avoid problems and ensure proper performance. And a lot of this is due to damaged seals, and debris in the reciever, which is common with Crosman and Chinese products.  That to me is EXACTLY the same as Crosman and Chinese rifles.



"Just because someone made upgraded pivot bushings does not mean much to me. I checked mine guns and decided I didn't need this "upgrade"."


The fact that someone made the bushings for a specific model range for a specfic brand, "Gene" says it is a recurring enough problem that it merited the effort and held potential to be profitable.  Have you missed the usual advice to new owners of Crosman springers to get the GRT trigger and Bushing kit straight away? Why would this be? Just an arbitrary suggestion to help Gene make a buck, or one born out of a recurring and common problem?  Your bushings have been fine? Mine weren't, and had to be replaced. Fact is, plastic washers on a high stress, high friction pivot point simply are not a good idea, and DO create problems as evidenced in many problems with loose barrels and poor accuracy and the well known brass bushing fix.



"Malfunctioning gas springs - I have yet to even hear confirmation of one getting weak."


Do we read the same forum indeed? There are at least two recent threads about this.

"The NPSS is the least hold-sensitive of all of them.  It is also the most accurate.  It was the quietest of the three, but the gas piston cushion deteriorated, and jammed up in the tube."- sam_bennett

"symptoms of failing nitro piston?- "... was the nitro piston. Have a replacement installed, and she's doing great."- Microsalmo



"Bad barrels - people say bad barrels when they can't shoot a group."


And there are plenty of cases of bent barrels, and barrels with incosistent bores, poor crowns, hence the common understanding that some models simply come with a "bad" barrel occasionally. Again, there are current threads about this.

Look, everything I have outlined is EASILY noted by perusing the Crosman gate. I started to collect links to threads full of examples, but soon realized it wasn't worth the time it would take (not hard to find, just too many examples). You can disimiss poor performance as simple user error, or believe that because you got lucky and haven't experienced the problems that they don't exist, however, for all the folks who are having the problems and seeking help with them in the Crosman gate, that isn't very convincing. And you certainly aren't going to convince somone who HAS dealt with them they don't exist (Me).

 

 

Makes me wonder if ALL of them with similar problems are coming from the SAME factory!

[huklbery]

Makes me wonder if ALL of them with similar problems are coming from the SAME factory!

Well actually that's an important aspect,  BAM makes the Crosman (import) & Stoeger air guns.  Many share the same underlying B19 design yet Stoeger seems to demand better QC, at least by customer online complaints.  (Could be just shear volume 100 Crosman's sold to each Stoeger).

One aspect that made sense to me in the blue book of airguns.  They say that despite "Sears" branded airguns being the same basic Crosman, the "best effort" was made on QC for the rebrand as the Sears buyer might reject a lot on delivery OR if enough returns take place the remainder sent back.  So the factory made sure the rifles where good before shipping, and consequently the Sears branded Crosman is more sought after.

The Umarex Ruger XS60 CO2 gun was a recent failure.  They advertised in advance and Xisco had the whole thing rejected for build issues.  The did ship some rebranded underlever's under the Browning name though.  It kinda depends on the Buyer for the brand what they will accept.

In the case of Hatsan, I think the ball got rolling the delivery dates set and they rushed to get the rifles here.  The Hatsan's do not have that great a QC rep as a rebrander nor from what I can tell selling direct in East Europe.  They are known for their balls to the wall performance.

I hope Hatsan USA is able to delicately direct the factory to revamp their QC check points even if it takes 100% sample rate on some key elements before assembly.  This has Yugo/Lada all over it.  A 95 with a big ol chip destroying the seal in the reciever is like getting a Lada with choice leather interior.

Mark 

[Plekto]

Often you have a situation where there are literally several companies in a single city or two that are doing all of this work.   They all share the same labor pool and the same designs between themselves as a rule.  When One has an issue, they change the name or re-do the process a bit, but business goes on as usual.

Sometimes it's the same factory making the food or item with a completely different face that's then sent to the exporter who lies.

The main problem with China is that it has no laws or legal means to deal with problems once they cross its borders.  So that means that they could literally ship you an airgun made with metal from old radioactive medical waste and there would be nothing you could do about it.  If they can get away with anything, well, they simply do - it's human nature.  Witness the old stories of early U.S. and U.K. factories that used child labor a hundred years ago. 

Compare that with Germany or even Spain and you get a completely different picture.  I personally have no issue with Chinese airguns, but making a proper airgun is a very specialized process that requires years of training and knowledge - even from the people working at the factory.  Something like a Crosman CO2 rifle is dead-simple by comparison and is well within their abilities to properly manufacture.  At worst, you replace a couple of seals and 10 minutes later, you're good to go.

One last thing about the Discovery and CO2.  It doesn't use 12gr powerlets, and you can get hundreds of shots out of a rather small 6oz tank.  Let alone a larger air tank (filled with CO2 instead) that you fill the Discovery from. 

Pyramid air sells a 20 oz CO2 tank for $26.  This is good for about 600-700 shots out of a Discovery. 
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/co2-tank-20-oz-refillable-ships-empty?a=183

When I say it is a fraction of the cost, I'm not kidding.  At a few dollars per fill it's less efficient than HPA, but it's going to take the average shooter years to make up the price difference, since the 3000PSI tanks are very pricey and so is , well, everything else associated with them.(for good reason - it's a lot more dangerous than 800-1200psi)

[Paul68]

I suppose my main issue is that Hatsan has been promoted as "listening to the enthusiast", "learning from the past", and all around having better quality. Part of me is biased since my first dealing with Hatsan ended in a dismal failure. Of course, others are doing quite well with theirs, which tells me it is not a lost cause. However, given that I am not the only one and the problems appear consistent, I cannot help but feel this is just another case of business as usual in the AG industry.

I'll simply continue as I have, tearing em down and cleaning em up as I get em, and avoid as much of the hassle as possible that way.

I sent out my 125TH this morning to Hatsan, and to their credit, they have offered to make good on the problem despite my having opened the gun (obvious manufacture defect though it be) so I can't honestly down the company. I truly believe though that it is better to add another layer to the QC process and tack on a bit more to the cost than it is to risk reputation and customer loyalty with returns and unhappy customers.
 
In Hatsan's case this is magnified twofold due to there being a non-existent parts supply besides seals from JM and perhaps custom made parts. Those who recieve defective Hatsans, have little recourse besides sending it back, which adds expense, oe trying to spend even more on higher priced or difficult custom work and parts.

Now, if Hatsan were to begin opening a parts supply line, QC could be a much more easily accepted problem at their price level.

[GunnerAl]

Well I can only speak with experiences we've had with Hatsan here in New Zealand... They've been sold here for many years now and it seems that Hatsan in the USA it is a new'ish thing/brand. I can tell you that they HAVE had problems galore with damaged and moreso with poor fitting seals and in a big way. I thought it was all over with and things were on the mend as the numbers of these cases are dropping. I own one Hatsan which was affected by this phenomena (undersize seal) and luckily it was caught and fixed but only after quite a number of shots were fired through the rifle, lucky for me it didn't suffer some of the horror stories I'd heard about other Hatsans - broken springs,, smashed pistons etc etc.

The first signs are - excessive rceoil both rearward and especially forward,, rifle trying to leap out of your hands when fired,, poor accuracy,, velocity inconsistency (chronied),, excessive noise from within when fired in both bang from piston moving forward too fast and twang from the spring following it with little or no air cushioning... If you are getting any or all of the above, just start to take note of it and if it gets worse, then it may well be that yours too is suffering from a poor ftiing or dmamged seal... In the past Hatsan had made seals which were too small,, very well known problem in the past. Now it may well be just poor assembly or excessive metal shavings or jusy QC in general which is the cause of concern...

I am hoping that the undersized seasl is a thing of the past...

[Tarheel]

The President of HatsanUSA is "BLAINE MANIFOLD" ( yes, his real name ) . . .

http://hatsanusa.com/

Dave

[Trondyne]

I still have not heard back from Blaine...  Ahhh ohhh....

Thinking of changing my name to Jim Plasma Cannon....

[Charles Outdoors]

I don't think the seals are undersized now. Very tight fitting in the last 2 125s.

[Nomadic Pirate]

Guys, stick with springers, because if you ever will get a PCP your beloved springers will never look the same ..not even close , LOL

Our WALLETS will "never look the same", if we start buying PCP's !

Dave

LOL, the reason the wallets will never look the same is because you wont be able to stop buying PCPs once you start,...Beware, enter the DarkSide at your onw risk

[Tarheel]

LOL, the reason the wallets will never look the same is because you wont be able to stop buying PCPs once you start,...Beware, enter the DarkSide at your onw risk

Maybe someone will come up with a Belt-Fed, Full-Auto PCP . . .

Then we could run around the woods, "playing Rambo", looking like an SCBA-equipped Fireman with a SCUBA Tank strapped on our back !

Gimme 600 - 700 rounds per minute and high-capacity . . .

LOL!

Dave

[Nomadic Pirate]

They do that already in Airsoft games

Now,......... With PCPs we are talking serious Killers, not toys