GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Artemis/SPA Airguns => Topic started by: splitbeing on January 25, 2022, 11:05:23 PM
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Anyone else following the new Seneca Dragonfly debuting soon? Anyone shot or handled one?
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Moved to the China/Asian Gate.
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Ordered one as soon as I got the news, won't be till April / May before they hit our shores.
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Ordered one as soon as I got the news, won't be till April / May before they hit our shores.
Congrats! Let's hope they'll not be stuck in the Los Angeles Harbor till December :-\ ???
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I'm curious how one pump with a Daisy sans plumbe wadcutter will compare to the original Dragonfly. All I've read is the 3 pump to 15 pump measurements. My Dragonfly is my one pump wonder plinker.
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I've got one for review. The big things outside of the physical appearance difference in the stock are the patented pump mechanism and threaded muzzle end. So far, it works as advertised. I measured an original Dragonfly pump effort on the 8th stroke at around 33-35 lbs, the Mk2 only required 14 lbs, and that's consistent for all pump strokes. It's a very cool system.
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Tyler.... thanks for the info.
I think I want one one of these but, I'll have to wait until they hit the shelves.
I just can't bring myself to do the pre-order thing... ;)
Any updates on the ETA?
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Tyler.... thanks for the info.
I think I want one one of these but, I'll have to wait until they hit the shelves.
I just can't bring myself to do the pre-order thing... ;)
Any updates on the ETA?
I'm on the fence about pre-ordering. 15lb pump effort for every stroke sounds fabulous, but we are a long ways off from April/May when these are predicted to be delivering.
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Yup.... plenty of time for the next superwhamadyne gotta have it to come out.
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Tyler.... thanks for the info.
I think I want one one of these but, I'll have to wait until they hit the shelves.
I just can't bring myself to do the pre-order thing... ;)
Any updates on the ETA?
The ETA that's on PA is pretty accurate for the time being, of course, if it changes we will update it.
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I've got one for review. The big things outside of the physical appearance difference in the stock are the patented pump mechanism and threaded muzzle end. So far, it works as advertised. I measured an original Dragonfly pump effort on the 8th stroke at around 33-35 lbs, the Mk2 only required 14 lbs, and that's consistent for all pump strokes. It's a very cool system.
Thanks Tyler. The system looks cool too.
I mostly shoot the original Dragonfly with one pump at 12 yds, 2 pumps at 17. Interested in the 1 and 2 pump performance is you happen to be following it.
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Tyler.... thanks for the info.
I think I want one one of these but, I'll have to wait until they hit the shelves.
I just can't bring myself to do the pre-order thing... ;)
Any updates on the ETA?
The ETA that's on PA is pretty accurate for the time being, of course, if it changes we will update it.
Hmm wonder if I can get a loaner until mine gets here :)
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I’ve been comparing the specs with the Crosman 362. Quite similar but the 362 needs fewer pumps. For hunting purposes 8 pumps for max velocity sounds a lot better than 15. I want one but I’ll wait until one of you more daring fellows gets one and critiques it.
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I’ve been comparing the specs with the Crosman 362. Quite similar but the 362 needs fewer pumps. For hunting purposes 8 pumps for max velocity sounds a lot better than 15. I want one but I’ll wait until one of you more daring fellows gets one and critiques it.
The c362 needs less pumps, because each pump is doing more work. The downside is the pumps become progressively "heavier" each time. The DF II will have 15 equal pumps, each one the same resistance as the one before.
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I’ve been comparing the specs with the Crosman 362. Quite similar but the 362 needs fewer pumps. For hunting purposes 8 pumps for max velocity sounds a lot better than 15. I want one but I’ll wait until one of you more daring fellows gets one and critiques it.
The c362 needs less pumps, because each pump is doing more work. The downside is the pumps become progressively "heavier" each time. The DF II will have 15 equal pumps, each one the same resistance as the one before.
I don't have a 362. Yet. But I have read that the pumping effort is not much more than a 2100. For a hunting gun fewer pumps is better. I don't want to be pumping fifteen times when I can get similar power from just eight. The wood and steel aspect of the Dragonfly appeals to me but not the idea of pumping fifteen noisy strokes between each shot.
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Most of my pumper shooting is just 5 pumps. Pests and paper don't require more power than that. If I could get 5 pump power at 8 easier pumps I might be good with that. We won't know until someone gets hands on and reports results. But I agree, I don't want to pump 15 times to get 8 pump power. And as you said.... everything else about the DFM2 trips my trigger.
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Is this like the aspen where it stores air so you only have to pump occasionally?
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No all that pumping for each shot.
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I agree with y’all that you don’t need more than 3 to 5 pumps for plinking. But I believe that if the man sez it will go to 15 pumps I just naturally gots to pump it up 15 times! ;D.
How about a regulated air conserving pumper? Something you could pre-pump thirty to fifty times and get three good repeating shots out of. That’s where the reduced pumping effort of this gun would be a real boon.
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The posture when pumping is what gets me. I can pump a pcp hand pump and feel strong like I worked a rowing maching. When I pump my dragonfly, 880, or any such pump rifle I am in a posture that aches in an awkward way. Maybe there's a gun with a possible posture change... like different stances for different weapons in kung fu. Could the new dragonfly design offer this? Waiting to see one in action ...
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I try to switch sides when pumping, gun left hang pump arm right and reverse.
Does this invention look familiar ???
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/11/the-pump-assist-benjamin-392-part-1/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/11/the-pump-assist-benjamin-392-part-1/)
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I try to switch sides when pumping, gun left hang pump arm right and reverse.
Does this invention look familiar ???
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/11/the-pump-assist-benjamin-392-part-1/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/11/the-pump-assist-benjamin-392-part-1/)
Were those available at any retailer?
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I try to switch sides when pumping, gun left hang pump arm right and reverse.
Does this invention look familiar ???
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/11/the-pump-assist-benjamin-392-part-1/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/11/the-pump-assist-benjamin-392-part-1/)
Were those available at any retailer?
I never saw any. Been waiting for Crosman to pick it up for the 392. I recognized it when I saw the new dragonfly. Wonder if they bought the rights to it?
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A threaded muzzle and a barrel band can be considered an improvement on a multi-pumper which is accurate and powerful, but I don't think adding such a mechanism to an already complex rifle just to reduce the pumping effort is worth the pain.
I'm neither strong nor young but I don't feel pumping six strokes to be too hard, though I wouldn't do this during hours. Furthermore, as it's already been said in this thread, 15 strokes for just a shot are a lot.
I'd just love my SPA LR 700W, (same as Seneca Dragonfly) to have safer and simpler innards. 8)
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Edit : what I wrote looks a nonsense. Of course Such a mechanism doesn't refer to the threaded muzzle or the barrel band but to the 2 arms pump linkage. :o
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I've got one for review. The big things outside of the physical appearance difference in the stock are the patented pump mechanism and threaded muzzle end. So far, it works as advertised. I measured an original Dragonfly pump effort on the 8th stroke at around 33-35 lbs, the Mk2 only required 14 lbs, and that's consistent for all pump strokes. It's a very cool system.
How noisy is the pumping of the Mk2?
Noise factor would be my concern with it.
Doesn't all that metal in the pumping arm make a racket?
Or am I hopefully over imagining that?
What kind of accuracy are you seeing?
Tom Gaylord at PA is reviewing one.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-two/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-two/)
Since PA is pushing the renamed butterfly hard, he'll probably post 10 yard accuracy results this week. I couldn't say when he'll post 25 yard results.
If BB suddenly pulls some ancient springer you're never heard of out of the woodwork and starts working on that instead, it'll be a red flag that the 25 yard test didn't go as anticipated.
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I've got one for review. The big things outside of the physical appearance difference in the stock are the patented pump mechanism and threaded muzzle end. So far, it works as advertised. I measured an original Dragonfly pump effort on the 8th stroke at around 33-35 lbs, the Mk2 only required 14 lbs, and that's consistent for all pump strokes. It's a very cool system.
How noisy is the pumping of the Mk2?
Noise factor would be my concern with it.
Doesn't all that metal in the pumping arm make a racket?
Or am I hopefully over imagining that?
What kind of accuracy are you seeing?
Tom Gaylord at PA is reviewing one.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-two/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-two/)
Since PA is pushing the renamed butterfly hard, he'll probably post 10 yard accuracy results this week. I couldn't say when he'll post 25 yard results.
If BB suddenly pulls some ancient springer you're never heard of out of the woodwork and starts working on that instead, it'll be a red flag that the 25 yard test didn't go as anticipated.
I wouldn't say it's any noisier than a 392, definitely more controllable so you could be more deliberate and delicate with it if you wanted/needed to. The pump mechanism fits tightly together, not a lot of slop between parts so I am not hearing any extra noise as a result of the added parts compared to the Dragonfly Mk1.
So far at 25 yards mine is stacking JSB 16 grain pellets, haven't pushed further yet, but plan to. Need to make it through my normal list of pellets to test with before pushing further. If I can keep it sub 1" at 45 yards, you'll see it on camera when we review it. If not, we will probably film it at the max distance I can hold 1" with it. Been running it at the same 8 pumps the original was rated for most of the time.
FWIW, Tom has reformatted the blog posting a bit. He's doing parts one and two right away and then filling in with other items in between. So not sure what to expect with timing on part 3 of his Dragonfly mk2 series, I know he has a few new guns in the mix right now.
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I've got one for review. The big things outside of the physical appearance difference in the stock are the patented pump mechanism and threaded muzzle end. So far, it works as advertised. I measured an original Dragonfly pump effort on the 8th stroke at around 33-35 lbs, the Mk2 only required 14 lbs, and that's consistent for all pump strokes. It's a very cool system.
How noisy is the pumping of the Mk2?
Noise factor would be my concern with it.
Doesn't all that metal in the pumping arm make a racket?
Or am I hopefully over imagining that?
What kind of accuracy are you seeing?
Tom Gaylord at PA is reviewing one.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-two/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-two/)
Since PA is pushing the renamed butterfly hard, he'll probably post 10 yard accuracy results this week. I couldn't say when he'll post 25 yard results.
If BB suddenly pulls some ancient springer you're never heard of out of the woodwork and starts working on that instead, it'll be a red flag that the 25 yard test didn't go as anticipated.
I wouldn't say it's any noisier than a 392, definitely more controllable so you could be more deliberate and delicate with it if you wanted/needed to. The pump mechanism fits tightly together, not a lot of slop between parts so I am not hearing any extra noise as a result of the added parts compared to the Dragonfly Mk1.
So far at 25 yards mine is stacking JSB 16 grain pellets, haven't pushed further yet, but plan to. Need to make it through my normal list of pellets to test with before pushing further. If I can keep it sub 1" at 45 yards, you'll see it on camera when we review it. If not, we will probably film it at the max distance I can hold 1" with it. Been running it at the same 8 pumps the original was rated for most of the time.
I'd imagine the 392 level noise will be a relief to many potential buyers. I too put a 1 inch limit on my shooting, depending on what I'm shooting. Sometimes that little spot between the eye and the ear is a tad smaller than an inch.
How many pumps are you using to stack those JSB 16's and at what MV?
The butterfly gets around 652 fps with 14gr and 618 fps with 18.13 at 15 pumps. So I'm guessing you're getting around 635 fps with 15 pumps?
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I've got one for review. The big things outside of the physical appearance difference in the stock are the patented pump mechanism and threaded muzzle end. So far, it works as advertised. I measured an original Dragonfly pump effort on the 8th stroke at around 33-35 lbs, the Mk2 only required 14 lbs, and that's consistent for all pump strokes. It's a very cool system.
How noisy is the pumping of the Mk2?
Noise factor would be my concern with it.
Doesn't all that metal in the pumping arm make a racket?
Or am I hopefully over imagining that?
What kind of accuracy are you seeing?
Tom Gaylord at PA is reviewing one.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-two/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-two/)
Since PA is pushing the renamed butterfly hard, he'll probably post 10 yard accuracy results this week. I couldn't say when he'll post 25 yard results.
If BB suddenly pulls some ancient springer you're never heard of out of the woodwork and starts working on that instead, it'll be a red flag that the 25 yard test didn't go as anticipated.
I wouldn't say it's any noisier than a 392, definitely more controllable so you could be more deliberate and delicate with it if you wanted/needed to. The pump mechanism fits tightly together, not a lot of slop between parts so I am not hearing any extra noise as a result of the added parts compared to the Dragonfly Mk1.
So far at 25 yards mine is stacking JSB 16 grain pellets, haven't pushed further yet, but plan to. Need to make it through my normal list of pellets to test with before pushing further. If I can keep it sub 1" at 45 yards, you'll see it on camera when we review it. If not, we will probably film it at the max distance I can hold 1" with it. Been running it at the same 8 pumps the original was rated for most of the time.
I'd imagine the 392 level noise will be a relief to many potential buyers. I too put a 1 inch limit on my shooting, depending on what I'm shooting. Sometimes that little spot between the eye and the ear is a tad smaller than an inch.
How many pumps are you using to stack those JSB 16's and at what MV?
The butterfly gets around 652 fps with 14gr and 618 fps with 18.13 at 15 pumps. So I'm guessing you're getting around 635 fps with 15 pumps?
8 pumps for now. Once I work out what the top performing pellets are, then I will max it out and see what it can do with the full 15.
With JSB Hades - 5 pumps achieved 547 fps and 8 managed 602 fps and the full 15 pumps spit it out at 676 fps. Pretty solid numbers.
Important to mention that Tom noted some break in as he continued the velocity test and retested with those JSB 18s and got the following:
Pumps……..Velocity
3………………475 (428 before)
8………………611 (583 before)
15..…………..653 (618 before)
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8 pumps for now. Once I work out what the top performing pellets are, then I will max it out and see what it can do with the full 15.
With JSB Hades - 5 pumps achieved 547 fps and 8 managed 602 fps and the full 15 pumps spit it out at 676 fps. Pretty solid numbers.
Important to mention that Tom noted some break in as he continued the velocity test and retested with those JSB 18s and got the following:
Pumps……..Velocity
3………………475 (428 before)
8………………611 (583 before)
15..…………..653 (618 before)
really interesting about the break in. i'm wondering if yours also required a break in, or if it came shooting out the box closer to tom's break in numbers? if you were chrony'ing the whole time.
and excited about the 25 yrd accuracy you're getting, as i wont be taking it out past 20 yards!
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8 pumps for now. Once I work out what the top performing pellets are, then I will max it out and see what it can do with the full 15.
With JSB Hades - 5 pumps achieved 547 fps and 8 managed 602 fps and the full 15 pumps spit it out at 676 fps. Pretty solid numbers.
Important to mention that Tom noted some break in as he continued the velocity test and retested with those JSB 18s and got the following:
Pumps……..Velocity
3………………475 (428 before)
8………………611 (583 before)
15..…………..653 (618 before)
really interesting about the break in. i'm wondering if yours also required a break in, or if it came shooting out the box closer to tom's break in numbers? if you were chrony'ing the whole time.
and excited about the 25 yrd accuracy you're getting, as i wont be taking it out past 20 yards!
I did chrony it initially with the 11.9 grain RWS Hobby pellets just to see if it was close to the 730 max it's rated at and it was, but that was the only real benchmarking I did. I also found the break in that Tom experienced interesting and unexpected. Typically don't chronograph until I've got the pellet selection down to the best shooters, unless I'm having performance issues and suspect there may be some velocity inconsistency at play. But at least with JSB Hades and the 15.89 Jumbo's, mine has been shooting quite well.
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Tom Gaylords 10 yard accuracy test for the butterfly came out this morning. It's a good test.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-three/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-three/)
The butterfly does show good accuracy. Gaylord especially liked the trigger. Says its nearly perfect as is.
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I came to the conclusion that I'm not going to disrespect the gun or the folks who enjoy it by referring to it as anything other than it's official name "Dragonfly". I sure wouldn't want anyone dubbing my 'Avenger" as "The Pretender"... :o
All guns are not for everyone. I just don't think it's a good thing for our forum to come in a thread and dump all over a gun that I have no intentions of owning for the time being.
Live and Let Live..... ;)
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I came to the conclusion that I'm not going to disrespect the gun or the folks who enjoy it by referring to it as anything other than it's official name "Dragonfly". I sure wouldn't want anyone dubbing my 'Avenger" as "The Pretender"... :o
All guns are not for everyone. I just don't think it's a good thing for our forum to come in a thread and dump all over a gun that I have no intentions of owning for the time being.
Live and Let Live..... ;)
You say it a lot better than I can!
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I came to the conclusion that I'm not going to disrespect the gun or the folks who enjoy it by referring to it as anything other than it's official name "Dragonfly". I sure wouldn't want anyone dubbing my 'Avenger" as "The Pretender"... :o
All guns are not for everyone. I just don't think it's a good thing for our forum to come in a thread and dump all over a gun that I have no intentions of owning for the time being.
Live and Let Live..... ;)
And yet Air Venturi themselves are the ones who initially named the pump assisted dragonfly the butterfly according to Tom Gaylord:
Dragonfly Mark 2
Now it is here. Air Venturi has made the pump assist multi-pump a reality with the Dragonfly Mark 2 rifle. Yes, they did toy with the idea of calling it the Butterfly, but that name didn’t sound right to them, plus there might have been some licensing issues.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-one/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-one/)
Did you know the Sam Yang corporation in S. Korea is who owns Air Venturi / Seneca? My guess is a top exec at Sam Yang decided the initial name of 'butterfly' wasn't the right name for the U.S. market.
I'm going to wait for this one to hit the shelves in America before ordering one. It'll make a really good starter pumper for a grand kid. Especially to teach them how to use open sights.
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Did you know the Sam Yang corporation in S. Korea is who owns Air Venturi / Seneca? My guess is a top exec at Sam Yang decided the initial name of 'butterfly' wasn't the right name for the U.S. market.
Where are you getting that complete misinformation from? I would legitimately love to hear where that rumor started or came from.
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Did you know the Sam Yang corporation in S. Korea is who owns Air Venturi / Seneca? My guess is a top exec at Sam Yang decided the initial name of 'butterfly' wasn't the right name for the U.S. market.
Where are you getting that complete misinformation from? I would legitimately love to hear where that rumor started or came from.
I'm confused. Which part of my post are you calling 'misinformation' and/or a 'rumor'?
The fact Sam Yang owns Air Venturi?
The fact of Sam Yang being a S. Korean corporation?
topairgun.com › powerful-discount-sam-yang-senecaSam Yang - Welcome to the #1 Top-Rated Air Gun Superstore in ...
Sam Yang (now referred to as Seneca) is a Korean AirGun Company, established in 1990, with the goal to manufacture the best, most high powered air rifles for hunting and even self protection. Sam Yang is not a huge airgun company and has always focused on quality over quantity.
www.airgundepot.com (http://www.airgundepot.com) › samyang-air-riflesSam Yang Air Rifles | Airgun Depot
Sam Yang Air Rifles. Sam Yang's (now Seneca) big bore air rifles are the hunter's preferred choice when it comes to pre-charged pneumatic air rifles. There are plenty of reasons to consider adding
Or, is it the guess I made about the name change? Would that be misinformation / rumor ?
As you can see from topairgun and airgun depot Sam Yang changed its name to 'Seneca'.
JMO but it looks like to me that changing the name of one of their products or even the name of the company is no big thing to them.
I seem to have offended you. If so, it was unintentional.
EDIT - Oh wait, ... I see what I did. I implied that Sam Yang owns Air Venturi. My bad.
No. Air Venturi sells Seneca products from the former Sam Yang.
Does that sound better?
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If you are suggesting that the Dragonfly is manufactured anywhere other than China, I would dispute that loudly.
Air Venturi (Seneca) may have rebranded it but that is clearly an SPA made gun.
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If you are suggesting that the Dragonfly is manufactured anywhere other than China, I would dispute that loudly.
Air Venturi (Seneca) may have rebranded it but that is clearly an SPA made gun.
I just recognized what I did Bill. It's too late to edit my post.
I inadvertently implied Sam Yang owns Air Venturi.
I mis-worded my post and for that I apologize to all.
As to the Seneca being manufactured by SPA I can't comment on that at all.
Seneca used to be called Sam Yang according to these two links.
Sam Yang's (now Seneca)
https://www.airgundepot.com/samyang-air-rifles.html (https://www.airgundepot.com/samyang-air-rifles.html)
Sam Yang (now referred to as Seneca) is a Korean AirGun Company, established in 1990
https://topairgun.com/powerful-discount-sam-yang-seneca-air-guns/ (https://topairgun.com/powerful-discount-sam-yang-seneca-air-guns/)
Sam Yang appears to not be a China company.
https://samyangin.en.ec21.com/company_info.html (https://samyangin.en.ec21.com/company_info.html)
It does look like Sam Yang has offices in China.
https://m.samyangep.com/download?filename=Samyang%20AM%20BU%20Catalog%28ENG%29.pdf (https://m.samyangep.com/download?filename=Samyang%20AM%20BU%20Catalog%28ENG%29.pdf)
.
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Did you know the Sam Yang corporation in S. Korea is who owns Air Venturi / Seneca? My guess is a top exec at Sam Yang decided the initial name of 'butterfly' wasn't the right name for the U.S. market.
Where are you getting that complete misinformation from? I would legitimately love to hear where that rumor started or came from.
I'm confused. Which part of my post are you calling 'misinformation' and/or a 'rumor'?
The fact Sam Yang owns Air Venturi?
The fact of Sam Yang being a S. Korean corporation?
topairgun.com › powerful-discount-sam-yang-senecaSam Yang - Welcome to the #1 Top-Rated Air Gun Superstore in ...
Sam Yang (now referred to as Seneca) is a Korean AirGun Company, established in 1990, with the goal to manufacture the best, most high powered air rifles for hunting and even self protection. Sam Yang is not a huge airgun company and has always focused on quality over quantity.
www.airgundepot.com (http://www.airgundepot.com) › samyang-air-riflesSam Yang Air Rifles | Airgun Depot
Sam Yang Air Rifles. Sam Yang's (now Seneca) big bore air rifles are the hunter's preferred choice when it comes to pre-charged pneumatic air rifles. There are plenty of reasons to consider adding
Or, is it the guess I made about the name change? Would that be misinformation / rumor ?
As you can see from topairgun and airgun depot Sam Yang changed its name to 'Seneca'.
JMO but it looks like to me that changing the name of one of their products or even the name of the company is no big thing to them.
I seem to have offended you. If so, it was unintentional.
Not offended, just don't like seeing unfounded and incorrect info being put out there about independent companies within our industry.
The only true part of what you said is that Sam Yang is a S. Korean company. That is a fact. They don't own Air Venturi, never have. Sam Yang is a long time supplier of rifles that are imported by Air Venturi, and were rebranded for the US market to the name Seneca a number of years ago. Seneca is Air Venturi's hunting focused brand, but not all of the Seneca branded guns are made by Sam Yang, the Dragonfly Mk2 being one such example.
The reason for the change of name from Butterfly to Dragonfly Mk2 is exactly as Tom said in his blog, the name Butterfly just didn't sound right for a gun in Air Venturi's hunting line. I think most folks would agree with that.
Hopefully that clears up any confusion.
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I have seen people fleeing for their lives from scary butterflies ;D
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I have seen people fleeing for their lives from scary butterflies ;D
I was surprised to see lepidopterophobia is a real phobia.
Understanding the Fear of Butterflies and Moths
The fear of butterflies and moths is called lepidopterophobia. Mottephobia, or the fear of moths alone, is closely related to this phobia. Those who suffer generally call themselves mottephobes.
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-the-fear-of-butterflies-and-moths-2671884 (https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-the-fear-of-butterflies-and-moths-2671884)
I was just watching a YT vid of people being scared of butterflies. It's a real thing.
As is the name of the airgun actually being called the 'Butterfly' for awhile.
SHOT Show 2020 - Air Venturi Avenger, Springfield M1A, and Seneca Butterfly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeR5yK2WE5Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeR5yK2WE5Q)
SHOT Show 2020 - Air Venturi Avenger, Springfield M1A, and Seneca Butterfly
NEW for 2020 from Air Venturi is the Springfield M1A under level spring-piston airgun. This thing matches the old Springfield M1A rifle and all for under $200! The Seneca Butterfly Multi-Pump offers a multi-pump that cuts out the struggle of building pressure with typical multi-pump airguns. The NEW Air Venturi Avenger is the new LIGHTWEIGHT PCP at a great price point for $300 considering it is fully shrouded, has a side lever, and is regulated.
At 4:47 in the vid, the Air Venturi representative says ... "We're calling it the Butterfly".
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Seneca Dragonfly Mark 2 multi-pump rifle: Part Four
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/)
Tom Gaylord at PA did the 25 yard accuracy test. He used open sights. Usually he scopes the airguns he tests for accuracy; but, not this time.
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy - Five JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets landed in a vertical group that measures 1.03-inches between centers.
Apolo Air Boss
Next up was the .22-caliber Apolo Air Boss. They went into a group measuring 0.914-inches between centers.
Predator Polymag
Next I tried Predator Polymags. But they don’t work well in the Dragonfly Mark 2. They gave an open group that measures 1.25-inches between centers. It is the largest group of the test.
Air Arms 18-grain domes
The next target was shot with 5 Air Arms 18-grain domes. I shot the 18-grainers because in Part 3 it seemed to me that the Dragonfly Mark 2 likes heavier pellets the best. Five of these went into 1.024-inches between centers. It’s pretty much in the same ballpark as all the other pellets I have tested so far.
H&N Baracuda Match 5.51mm head
Oh! Apparently I don’t have to shoot another group of the JSBs. I don’t because the Dragonfly Mark 2 put five of the final pellets into a group that measures 0.585-inches between centers. This is what I was hoping for and it’s what I believe the Dragonfly Mark 2 is capable of with the right pellets.
-
Seneca Dragonfly Mark 2 multi-pump rifle: Part Four
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/)
Tom Gaylord at PA did the 25 yard accuracy test. He used open sights. Usually he scopes the airguns he tests for accuracy; but, not this time.
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy - Five JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets landed in a vertical group that measures 1.03-inches between centers.
Apolo Air Boss
Next up was the .22-caliber Apolo Air Boss. They went into a group measuring 0.914-inches between centers.
Predator Polymag
Next I tried Predator Polymags. But they don’t work well in the Dragonfly Mark 2. They gave an open group that measures 1.25-inches between centers. It is the largest group of the test.
Air Arms 18-grain domes
The next target was shot with 5 Air Arms 18-grain domes. I shot the 18-grainers because in Part 3 it seemed to me that the Dragonfly Mark 2 likes heavier pellets the best. Five of these went into 1.024-inches between centers. It’s pretty much in the same ballpark as all the other pellets I have tested so far.
H&N Baracuda Match 5.51mm head
Oh! Apparently I don’t have to shoot another group of the JSBs. I don’t because the Dragonfly Mark 2 put five of the final pellets into a group that measures 0.585-inches between centers. This is what I was hoping for and it’s what I believe the Dragonfly Mark 2 is capable of with the right pellets.
Those a pretty good groups for factory iron sights at 25 yards, especially with those 5.51 H&N pellets. In part 3 Tom was getting dime sized groups at 10m with several different pellets. I bet with a scope the groups would be tighter. it's hard to have a repeatable hold with such thick front sight post.
In my own experience the factory irons on my Stormrider yield a less than desirable result at 25 yards using a tripod yoke for a rest. When switching to the scope I can stack Crosman pellets with no difficulty. No competitive shooter would use the factory irons on this SPA platform.
Direct quote: "I am purposely concentrating on a good 6 o’clock hold sight picture, but as I said, that front sight isn’t made to shoot targets. I think when I put a red dot on this test will go differently."
We all understand you don't like the gun, but at least this way I get to read the blog posts about it, which are overwhelmingly positive.
-
Seneca Dragonfly Mark 2 multi-pump rifle: Part Four
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/)
Tom Gaylord at PA did the 25 yard accuracy test. He used open sights. Usually he scopes the airguns he tests for accuracy; but, not this time.
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy - Five JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets landed in a vertical group that measures 1.03-inches between centers.
Apolo Air Boss
Next up was the .22-caliber Apolo Air Boss. They went into a group measuring 0.914-inches between centers.
Predator Polymag
Next I tried Predator Polymags. But they don’t work well in the Dragonfly Mark 2. They gave an open group that measures 1.25-inches between centers. It is the largest group of the test.
Air Arms 18-grain domes
The next target was shot with 5 Air Arms 18-grain domes. I shot the 18-grainers because in Part 3 it seemed to me that the Dragonfly Mark 2 likes heavier pellets the best. Five of these went into 1.024-inches between centers. It’s pretty much in the same ballpark as all the other pellets I have tested so far.
H&N Baracuda Match 5.51mm head
Oh! Apparently I don’t have to shoot another group of the JSBs. I don’t because the Dragonfly Mark 2 put five of the final pellets into a group that measures 0.585-inches between centers. This is what I was hoping for and it’s what I believe the Dragonfly Mark 2 is capable of with the right pellets.
Those a pretty good groups for factory iron sights at 25 yards, especially with those 5.51 H&N pellets. In part 3 Tom was getting dime sized groups at 10m with several different pellets. I bet with a scope the groups would be tighter. it's hard to have a repeatable hold with such thick front sight post.
In my own experience the factory irons on my Stormrider yield a less than desirable result at 25 yards using a tripod yoke for a rest. When switching to the scope I can stack Crosman pellets with no difficulty. No competitive shooter would use the factory irons on this SPA platform.
Direct quote: "I am purposely concentrating on a good 6 o’clock hold sight picture, but as I said, that front sight isn’t made to shoot targets. I think when I put a red dot on this test will go differently."
We all understand you don't like the gun, but at least this way I get to read the blog posts about it, which are overwhelmingly positive.
That's the big question ... can this airgun be scoped? In the vid I posted above, the 2 guys think the seneca might be able to be used with a compact scope or a red dot sight. But, an even bigger question which I asked the other day not getting an answer is...Looking at the vid, I do not see how you can mount a scope and still use the magazine. Is that indeed the case?
When you say "We all understand you don't like the gun"...when no one answers what is after all a relatively simple question, then to me that suggests not many people actually like it.
Except of course, the small market segment that it was and is intended for. But, perhaps after BB shows everyone how to mount a red dot sight on the seneca, then the market for it may increase.
Naturally, I'll post the test and link for everyone to peruse it.
-
Seneca Dragonfly Mark 2 multi-pump rifle: Part Four
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/)
Tom Gaylord at PA did the 25 yard accuracy test. He used open sights. Usually he scopes the airguns he tests for accuracy; but, not this time.
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy - Five JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets landed in a vertical group that measures 1.03-inches between centers.
Apolo Air Boss
Next up was the .22-caliber Apolo Air Boss. They went into a group measuring 0.914-inches between centers.
Predator Polymag
Next I tried Predator Polymags. But they don’t work well in the Dragonfly Mark 2. They gave an open group that measures 1.25-inches between centers. It is the largest group of the test.
Air Arms 18-grain domes
The next target was shot with 5 Air Arms 18-grain domes. I shot the 18-grainers because in Part 3 it seemed to me that the Dragonfly Mark 2 likes heavier pellets the best. Five of these went into 1.024-inches between centers. It’s pretty much in the same ballpark as all the other pellets I have tested so far.
H&N Baracuda Match 5.51mm head
Oh! Apparently I don’t have to shoot another group of the JSBs. I don’t because the Dragonfly Mark 2 put five of the final pellets into a group that measures 0.585-inches between centers. This is what I was hoping for and it’s what I believe the Dragonfly Mark 2 is capable of with the right pellets.
Those a pretty good groups for factory iron sights at 25 yards, especially with those 5.51 H&N pellets. In part 3 Tom was getting dime sized groups at 10m with several different pellets. I bet with a scope the groups would be tighter. it's hard to have a repeatable hold with such thick front sight post.
In my own experience the factory irons on my Stormrider yield a less than desirable result at 25 yards using a tripod yoke for a rest. When switching to the scope I can stack Crosman pellets with no difficulty. No competitive shooter would use the factory irons on this SPA platform.
Direct quote: "I am purposely concentrating on a good 6 o’clock hold sight picture, but as I said, that front sight isn’t made to shoot targets. I think when I put a red dot on this test will go differently."
We all understand you don't like the gun, but at least this way I get to read the blog posts about it, which are overwhelmingly positive.
That's the big question ... can this airgun be scoped? In the vid I posted above, the 2 guys think the seneca might be able to be used with a compact scope or a red dot sight. But, an even bigger question which I asked the other day not getting an answer is...Looking at the vid, I do not see how you can mount a scope and still use the magazine. Is that indeed the case?
When you say "We all understand you don't like the gun"...when no one answers what is after all a relatively simple question, then to me that suggests not many people actually like it.
Except of course, the small market segment that it was and is intended for. But, perhaps after BB shows everyone how to mount a red dot sight on the seneca, then the market for it may increase.
Naturally, I'll post the test and link for everyone to peruse it.
This is literally a MSP variant of the Diana Stormrider. I have a scope on the Stormrider hanging on my wall, which has almost the same iron sights as the DF MKII... You do need rings that can clear the magazine, or just use the SST and mount whatever rings clear your scope. For what it's worth, a scope with a large objective bell will necessitate high rings, which will clear the magazine easily. Anything that mounts and works with a Stormrider will work with the DF MKII, or DF MKI for that matter. This is not an entirely new rifle, just the application of the butterfly linkage to a previously existing product. Seneca/SPA partnered with a man who initially put the mechanism on a Benjamin 392p. The biggest complaint about the DF MKI was the high pumping effort, hence the MKII Butterfly linkage.
You can take that chip off your shoulder, this is a proven platform. My Stormrider stacks all the available .22 cal Crosman pellets, and my .177 Bandit/Chaser Rifle hybrid stacked H&N Barracudas. The Bandit has a red dot and the Stormrider has a compact scope. I could easily mount a full size scope, but I wanted something light.
-
Spacebus is on point with this. Scopes are easily mounted to the 11mm dovetail with two piece rings. The rear sight is easy to remove if you go with a scope that has a larger objective bell.
-
An image from May 2018, of a scoped Seneca Dragonfly with the magazine installed.
(https://i.imgur.com/rDmPTwG.png)
-
Seneca Dragonfly Mark 2 multi-pump rifle: Part Four
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/)
Tom Gaylord at PA did the 25 yard accuracy test. He used open sights. Usually he scopes the airguns he tests for accuracy; but, not this time.
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy - Five JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets landed in a vertical group that measures 1.03-inches between centers.
Apolo Air Boss
Next up was the .22-caliber Apolo Air Boss. They went into a group measuring 0.914-inches between centers.
Predator Polymag
Next I tried Predator Polymags. But they don’t work well in the Dragonfly Mark 2. They gave an open group that measures 1.25-inches between centers. It is the largest group of the test.
Air Arms 18-grain domes
The next target was shot with 5 Air Arms 18-grain domes. I shot the 18-grainers because in Part 3 it seemed to me that the Dragonfly Mark 2 likes heavier pellets the best. Five of these went into 1.024-inches between centers. It’s pretty much in the same ballpark as all the other pellets I have tested so far.
H&N Baracuda Match 5.51mm head
Oh! Apparently I don’t have to shoot another group of the JSBs. I don’t because the Dragonfly Mark 2 put five of the final pellets into a group that measures 0.585-inches between centers. This is what I was hoping for and it’s what I believe the Dragonfly Mark 2 is capable of with the right pellets.
Those a pretty good groups for factory iron sights at 25 yards, especially with those 5.51 H&N pellets. In part 3 Tom was getting dime sized groups at 10m with several different pellets. I bet with a scope the groups would be tighter. it's hard to have a repeatable hold with such thick front sight post.
In my own experience the factory irons on my Stormrider yield a less than desirable result at 25 yards using a tripod yoke for a rest. When switching to the scope I can stack Crosman pellets with no difficulty. No competitive shooter would use the factory irons on this SPA platform.
Direct quote: "I am purposely concentrating on a good 6 o’clock hold sight picture, but as I said, that front sight isn’t made to shoot targets. I think when I put a red dot on this test will go differently."
We all understand you don't like the gun, but at least this way I get to read the blog posts about it, which are overwhelmingly positive.
That's the big question ... can this airgun be scoped? In the vid I posted above, the 2 guys think the seneca might be able to be used with a compact scope or a red dot sight. But, an even bigger question which I asked the other day not getting an answer is...Looking at the vid, I do not see how you can mount a scope and still use the magazine. Is that indeed the case?
When you say "We all understand you don't like the gun"...when no one answers what is after all a relatively simple question, then to me that suggests not many people actually like it.
Except of course, the small market segment that it was and is intended for. But, perhaps after BB shows everyone how to mount a red dot sight on the seneca, then the market for it may increase.
Naturally, I'll post the test and link for everyone to peruse it.
You can take that chip off your shoulder, this is a proven platform.
Just about every post I make, you try to pick a fight with me, D.J. ... why is that?
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This is literally a MSP variant of the Diana Stormrider. I have a scope on the Stormrider hanging on my wall, which has almost the same iron sights as the DF MKII... You do need rings that can clear the magazine, or just use the SST and mount whatever rings clear your scope. For what it's worth, a scope with a large objective bell will necessitate high rings, which will clear the magazine easily. Anything that mounts and works with a Stormrider will work with the DF MKII, or DF MKI for that matter. This is not an entirely new rifle, just the application of the butterfly linkage to a previously existing product. Seneca/SPA partnered with a man who initially put the mechanism on a Benjamin 392p. The biggest complaint about the DF MKI was the high pumping effort, hence the MKII Butterfly linkage.
You can take that chip off your shoulder, this is a proven platform. My Stormrider stacks all the available .22 cal Crosman pellets, and my .177 Bandit/Chaser Rifle hybrid stacked H&N Barracudas. The Bandit has a red dot and the Stormrider has a compact scope. I could easily mount a full size scope, but I wanted something light.
Quote:
"This is literally a MSP variant of the Diana Stormrider."
Literally? Um. No. It's not.
The weight of the stormrider is 5 lbs.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/diana-stormrider-multi-shot-pcp-air-rifle?m=4449 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/diana-stormrider-multi-shot-pcp-air-rifle?m=4449)
The weight of the butterfly is 6.5 lbs.
https://www.airventuri.com/av/featured-products/dragonfly-mk2/ (https://www.airventuri.com/av/featured-products/dragonfly-mk2/)
The barrel length of your stormrider is 18 inches. The butterfly has a 22.75 inch barrel.
The butterfly is not the same rifle as the stormrider.
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Spacebus is on point with this. Scopes are easily mounted to the 11mm dovetail with two piece rings. The rear sight is easy to remove if you go with a scope that has a larger objective bell.
Thank you, Tyler. But, that wasn't my question. My question was ...
Looking at the vid, I do not see how you can mount a scope and still use the magazine. Is that indeed the case?
Sure. A scope can be mounted. But, can the magazine still be used with the scope mounted?
Looks like BB didn't use the magazine during his open sight test.
Single shot tray slides easily
I’m shooting with the single shot tray and it slides out of place easily. As my finger tries to put the pellet into the trough the tray slides out of position. I wish it would stay in place a little better.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/)
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Spacebus is on point with this. Scopes are easily mounted to the 11mm dovetail with two piece rings. The rear sight is easy to remove if you go with a scope that has a larger objective bell.
Thank you, Tyler. But, that wasn't my question. My question was ...
Looking at the vid, I do not see how you can mount a scope and still use the magazine. Is that indeed the case?
Sure. A scope can be mounted. But, can the magazine still be used with the scope mounted?
Looks like BB didn't use the magazine during his open sight test.
Single shot tray slides easily
I’m shooting with the single shot tray and it slides out of place easily. As my finger tries to put the pellet into the trough the tray slides out of position. I wish it would stay in place a little better.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/)
Jacob... the answer to your question is a simple "yes".
The breech, mag, and scope mounting situation is exactly the same as the Storm Rider, Varmint, Plinkster and all other guns of this specific platform. You set a scope ring in front and behind the mag slot on the breech and mount the scope. The only thing you have to do is make sure the rings are tall enough for the mag to clear the scope..... same as any other mag loading gun. In this case... medium height rings should do it.
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Yes, the magazine can easily be installed while a scope is mounted, so long as two piece rings (medium height or taller) are used.
The breech setup is the same as the stormrider, so if you find yourself a video of a scope mounted with a magazine in the gun for the Stormrider, that'll show you the way.
You can see it here: https://youtu.be/9wmbHt9Bhp0?t=197
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Yes, the magazine can easily be installed while a scope is mounted, so long as two piece rings (medium height or taller) are used.
The breech setup is the same as the stormrider, so if you find yourself a video of a scope mounted with a magazine in the gun for the Stormrider, that'll show you the way.
You can see it here: https://youtu.be/9wmbHt9Bhp0?t=197
Thank you very much for the link, Tyler. That's exactly what I was looking for.
-
Spacebus is on point with this. Scopes are easily mounted to the 11mm dovetail with two piece rings. The rear sight is easy to remove if you go with a scope that has a larger objective bell.
Thank you, Tyler. But, that wasn't my question. My question was ...
Looking at the vid, I do not see how you can mount a scope and still use the magazine. Is that indeed the case?
Sure. A scope can be mounted. But, can the magazine still be used with the scope mounted?
Looks like BB didn't use the magazine during his open sight test.
Single shot tray slides easily
I’m shooting with the single shot tray and it slides out of place easily. As my finger tries to put the pellet into the trough the tray slides out of position. I wish it would stay in place a little better.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/)
Jacob... the answer to your question is a simple "yes".
The breech, mag, and scope mounting situation is exactly the same as the Storm Rider, Varmint, Plinkster and all other guns of this specific platform. You set a scope ring in front and behind the mag slot on the breech and mount the scope. The only thing you have to do is make sure the rings are tall enough for the mag to clear the scope..... same as any other mag loading gun. In this case... medium height rings should do it.
Thank you, Bill.
I think what is confusing me is the disparate weights of the 2 rifles. The stormrider weighs 5 pounds. The Mk2 weighs 6.5 pounds.
Where's that extra 1.5 pounds coming from? The pump linkage?
If not, then where?
When you say 'specific platform' ... to me a specific platform means the Mk2 and the stormrider and all the other rifles you cited would all weigh 5 pounds apiece. And, have the same barrel length.
That's the way my mind works.
-
Spacebus is on point with this. Scopes are easily mounted to the 11mm dovetail with two piece rings. The rear sight is easy to remove if you go with a scope that has a larger objective bell.
Thank you, Tyler. But, that wasn't my question. My question was ...
Looking at the vid, I do not see how you can mount a scope and still use the magazine. Is that indeed the case?
Sure. A scope can be mounted. But, can the magazine still be used with the scope mounted?
Looks like BB didn't use the magazine during his open sight test.
Single shot tray slides easily
I’m shooting with the single shot tray and it slides out of place easily. As my finger tries to put the pellet into the trough the tray slides out of position. I wish it would stay in place a little better.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/)
Jacob... the answer to your question is a simple "yes".
The breech, mag, and scope mounting situation is exactly the same as the Storm Rider, Varmint, Plinkster and all other guns of this specific platform. You set a scope ring in front and behind the mag slot on the breech and mount the scope. The only thing you have to do is make sure the rings are tall enough for the mag to clear the scope..... same as any other mag loading gun. In this case... medium height rings should do it.
Thank you, Bill.
I think what is confusing me is the disparate weights of the 2 rifles. The stormrider weighs 5 pounds. The Mk2 weighs 6.5 pounds.
Where's that extra 1.5 pounds coming from? The pump linkage?
If not, then where?
When you say 'specific platform' ... to me a specific platform means the Mk2 and the stormrider and all the other rifles you cited would all weigh 5 pounds apiece. And, have the same barrel length.
That's the way my mind works.
Please consider our common use of the term "Lego" gun for example. Both Diana and Crosman have a series of guns that within their own manufacturers, vary wildly in barrel lengths, PCP, CO2, pumpers etc, shoulder stocks, pistol grips, etc. This simply means that using a benchmark such as weight is non sequitur and thus the reason why you have been getting some pushback.
The issue of scope ring height tells me that you are just beginning in guns/air guns, perhaps bring the insistence down from 11 to lets say a 6 or 7 and you will get a LOT more responses to your liking. There are a lot of good people here, dont burn your bridges with them.
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author=Firewalker link=topic=195725.msg156292355#msg156292355 date=1645722796]
Please consider our common use of the term "Lego" gun for example. Both Diana and Crosman have a series of guns that within their own manufacturers, vary wildly in barrel lengths, PCP, CO2, pumpers etc, shoulder stocks, pistol grips, etc. This simply means that using a benchmark such as weight is non sequitur and thus the reason why you have been getting some pushback.
The issue of scope ring height tells me that you are just beginning in guns/air guns, perhaps bring the insistence down from 11 to lets say a 6 or 7 and you will get a LOT more responses to your liking. There are a lot of good people here, dont burn your bridges with them.
--
I'm not new to airguns, but it looks like I am new to quoting posts to try and shorten their length.
Yes David; there are a lot of good people here. I agree.
Insistence? In being curious about this rifle? Asking questions?
Trying to separate the wheat from the chaff? M'kay.
The weight is a non sequitur?
Merriam-Webster disagree's with your choice of words. You might want to try another minimization instead.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/non%20sequitur (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/non%20sequitur)
The dragonfly weighs 5.65 pounds.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/seneca-dragonfly-multi-pump-air-rifle?m=4514 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/seneca-dragonfly-multi-pump-air-rifle?m=4514)
The Mk2 weighs 6.5 pounds.
Where is the almost extra pound (0.85 lb) of weight coming from? The pump linkage?
If not, then where?
Simple question, I'd say.
Rather than scolding me, why not attempt to answer the question instead?
-
author=Firewalker link=topic=195725.msg156292355#msg156292355 date=1645722796]
Please consider our common use of the term "Lego" gun for example. Both Diana and Crosman have a series of guns that within their own manufacturers, vary wildly in barrel lengths, PCP, CO2, pumpers etc, shoulder stocks, pistol grips, etc. This simply means that using a benchmark such as weight is non sequitur and thus the reason why you have been getting some pushback.
The issue of scope ring height tells me that you are just beginning in guns/air guns, perhaps bring the insistence down from 11 to lets say a 6 or 7 and you will get a LOT more responses to your liking. There are a lot of good people here, dont burn your bridges with them.
--
I'm not new to airguns, but it looks like I am new to quoting posts to try and shorten their length.
Yes David; there are a lot of good people here. I agree.
Insistence? In being curious about this rifle? Asking questions?
Trying to separate the wheat from the chaff? M'kay.
The weight is a non sequitur?
Merriam-Webster disagree's with your choice of words. You might want to try another minimization instead.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/non%20sequitur (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/non%20sequitur)
The dragonfly weighs 5.65 pounds.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/seneca-dragonfly-multi-pump-air-rifle?m=4514 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/seneca-dragonfly-multi-pump-air-rifle?m=4514)
The Mk2 weighs 6.5 pounds.
Where is the almost extra pound (0.85 lb) of weight coming from? The pump linkage?
If not, then where?
Simple question, I'd say.
Rather than scolding me, why not attempt to answer the question instead?
I very much did answer your question and you don't seem to like it.
I'm sorry that you interpreted a friendly suggestion as a scolding, I certainly will not do that again.
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C'mon guys.... let's just drop it and move on... this banter is very non productive.
David... yes, the added weight has to come from the pump linkage. I have not owned or handled either gun personally so that would be the only guess on my part. Both guns are virtually identical other wise.
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C'mon guys.... let's just drop it and move on... this banter is very non productive.
David... yes, the added weight has to come from the pump linkage. I have not owned or handled either gun personally so that would be the only guess on my part. Both guns are virtually identical other wise.
Thank you Bill; for being forthcoming.
That is the conclusion I came to myself.
As you pointed out, these rifles have a specific platform.
The stormrider weighing 5 pounds.
For the dragonfly, a pump linkage was added and the weight went up to 5.65 lbs.
The Mk2 has a heavier pump linkage than the dragonfly, so the weight went up to 6.5 lbs.
Ergo, the pump linkage of the Mk2 weighs 1.5 pounds.
Which is 23% of the weight of the rifle.
Is that significant? Might be.
Being new to airguns and all like David claimed about me, naturally I do not understand how this rifle can be quietened?
How does one silence that metal in the middle of the pump linkage without disabling the linkage itself?
Is that significant? Yeah, definitely might be.
Isn't our mutual aim to be accurate?
(Sorry about the 2 puns.)
-
C'mon guys.... let's just drop it and move on... this banter is very non productive.
David... yes, the added weight has to come from the pump linkage. I have not owned or handled either gun personally so that would be the only guess on my part. Both guns are virtually identical other wise.
Thank you Bill; for being forthcoming.
That is the conclusion I came to myself.
As you pointed out, these rifles have a specific platform.
The stormrider weighing 5 pounds.
For the dragonfly, a pump linkage was added and the weight went up to 5.65 lbs.
The Mk2 has a heavier pump linkage than the dragonfly, so the weight went up to 6.5 lbs.
Ergo, the pump linkage of the Mk2 weighs 1.5 pounds.
Which is 23% of the weight of the rifle.
Is that significant? Might be.
Being new to airguns and all like David claimed about me, naturally I do not understand how this rifle can be quietened?
How does one silence that metal in the middle of the pump linkage without disabling the linkage itself?
Is that significant? Yeah, definitely might be.
Isn't our mutual aim to be accurate?
(Sorry about the 2 puns.)
One thing you forgot...
The Stormrider is a PCP. The Dragonfly and the MK2 both also have a pump piston in them that a PCP does not have.
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C'mon guys.... let's just drop it and move on... this banter is very non productive.
David... yes, the added weight has to come from the pump linkage. I have not owned or handled either gun personally so that would be the only guess on my part. Both guns are virtually identical other wise.
Thank you Bill; for being forthcoming.
That is the conclusion I came to myself.
As you pointed out, these rifles have a specific platform.
The stormrider weighing 5 pounds.
For the dragonfly, a pump linkage was added and the weight went up to 5.65 lbs.
The Mk2 has a heavier pump linkage than the dragonfly, so the weight went up to 6.5 lbs.
Ergo, the pump linkage of the Mk2 weighs 1.5 pounds.
Which is 23% of the weight of the rifle.
Is that significant? Might be.
Being new to airguns and all like David claimed about me, naturally I do not understand how this rifle can be quietened?
How does one silence that metal in the middle of the pump linkage without disabling the linkage itself?
Is that significant? Yeah, definitely might be.
Isn't our mutual aim to be accurate?
(Sorry about the 2 puns.)
The 1 lb increase over the MK1 is obviously the linkage, longer pump tube, longer pump arm, muzzle brake, and longer barrel.
The magazine functions with a scope exactly the same as a Diana Bandit, Chaser, Stormrider, Trailscout, and Airbug, but there is a Seneca logo on the side rather than SPA, Snowpeak, MROD Air, Artemis, or Diana. This is a proven platform with many different guns built on it. Much like how many car companies build an SUV, hatchback, and sedan all on the same platform. In some cases, like VAG with VW and Audi, many different cars are built on the same platform. When things share a platform, but are different models, they can have very different attributes.
The breech on the DF MKI, MKII, and all the stuff I listed in the previous paragraph all use the same breech, magazines, and single shot trays.
Your comments, intended or not, come off very abrasive and belligerent and your apparent total lack of awareness as to how a magazine can work with a scope makes you sound like a troll.
Thanks for posting all of the glowing reviews for this new rifle. I look forward to placing an order this spring.
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The 1 lb increase over the MK1 is obviously the linkage, longer pump tube, longer pump arm, muzzle brake, and longer barrel.
Your comments, intended or not, come off very abrasive and belligerent and your apparent total lack of awareness as to how a magazine can work with a scope makes you sound like a troll.
Thanks for posting all of the glowing reviews for this new rifle. I look forward to placing an order this spring.
Doesn't it say in your signature ... 'Chronic thread derailer' ... as the libeled pot said to the kettle?
Who derails threads? Is it what you're accusing me of being?
As do your comments D.J., intended or not, come off very abrasive and belligerent to me. I'm not the only person who has noticed this.
But, as its my posts that matter to you? Ok, point out my posts which appear very abrasive and belligerent to you and I'll select your posts which appear very abrasive and belligerent to me and we'll see who has more very abrasive and belligerent posts.
Does that sound fair to you?
I was asking how the magazine works with this gun and a scope. No other.
I'll remind you that I posted of how the two guys in the vid (one of whom is an AV exec) I posted at Reply #41 are the ones who expressed doubts of being able to mount anything other than a compact scope or a red dot.
You know that, yet you want to make it about me ... instead of the AV exec and the reviewer in the vid. That is both misleading to others and misrepresents what I actually posted.
I can see what you're doing. You're not the only one doing it. 3 or 4 lines of praise with a line of snark.
Two can play that game, you know. But, why don't we try getting along instead?
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One thing you forgot...
The Stormrider is a PCP. The Dragonfly and the MK2 both also have a pump piston in them that a PCP does not have.
I thought I included it, but yeah, I could have worded it better.
Stormrider weighs 5 pounds.
Ok yeah....
Pump linkage ...and piston ... adds 0.65 lbs.
Pump linkage of the cicada (Heh) adds another 0.85 lbs.
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Guys... I think if y'all read the rules to the forum you'll see that personal beefs are to be restricted to PM.
For me, any useful information in this thread is being shadowed by this constant back and forth.
Please, consider the rest of us..... especially the OP.
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Guys... I think if y'all read the rules to the forum you'll see that personal beefs are to be restricted to PM.
For me, any useful information in this thread is being shadowed by this constant back and forth.
Please, consider the rest of us..... especially the OP.
You're absolutely right, Bill.
I don't have a personal beef with spacebus or firewalker per se; yet both of them attack me constantly for asking questions. Social media forums usually have a block feature. GTA apparently does not. Or, does it? Perhaps the 3 of us blocking each other would be the best compromise.
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Anyone else following the new Seneca Dragonfly debuting soon? Anyone shot or handled one?
I am following it and I apologize for the back and forth discussions in your thread not related to the Mk2.
I like the fact it is capable of 674 fps with 18 gr pellets as Tyler has also confirmed..
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-five/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-five/)
I'm eagerly awaiting Gaylords 25 yard accuracy test with a red dot sight.
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Back to the OP...
I do like the looks of the Seneca Dragonfly and also the reduced pumping energy used per pump but as others have pointed out, it takes almost twice the pumps to achieve the same pellet speed. I guess that I'm not old or broken enough to need a lighter handle as of yet. Though, in 20 years, this may be a good choice for me.
Comes down to a personal choice in my opinion.
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Here's an interesting comment from today's PA blog post:
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier) February 24, 2022 at 8:31 am
Hank,
I just sent your comment to the president of Pyramyd Air and to Tyler Patner, who is, if not the actual father of the Dragonfly Mark 2, at least he’s the shepherd.
BB
--
I did not know that. Thanks Tyler.
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For those among us that doubt you can put a full size scope on the DF MKII, here's a blog post about the MKI.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2018/06/the-seneca-dragonfly-multi-pump-pneumatic-rifle-part-4/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2018/06/the-seneca-dragonfly-multi-pump-pneumatic-rifle-part-4/)
If you feel like scrolling through the comments, you will find photos scopes on other SPA guns with the same receiver, including a photo of a full size scope on a DF MKI, in addition to the compact scope/DF MKI combo used by the author.
Also, for any who don't realize it, Air Venturi/Seneca do not manufacture this rifle, it is made by SPA.
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One pump to rule them all
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Shot my dragonfly with daisy sans plomb today (a frequent occurrence).
Got a new plinking setup that is lead free only (top bison trap). All else is for my louder shooting sessions.
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SPA Artemis/Snow Peak Pellet Guns
The SPA Artemis Snow peak Pellet Gun Factory, was established in 1976, specialized in manufacturing pellet guns for civilian use approved by the Ministry of Public Security of the People’s Republic of China. The company locates in the Yangtze River Delta area, with no more than 2 hours drive from Port of Shanghai, Port of Ningbo, Shanghai Airport, Hangzhou Xiaoshan International Airport, and China Commodity City in Yiwu.
https://thepelletgunshop.co.za/artemis_snow_peak.htm
Given how Asian shipping is in the state that it is in, I think I'm going to hold off ordering a Mk2 (for my brother-in-law) until the rifles are in stock in America.
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I understand Diana Stormrider and DF MK2 utilize the same breech type
and scope mounting would pose the same issues for both.
For those folks who plan to install a scope (especially a Bug Buster) on their DF MK2,
there is an interesting article over at hardairmagazine.com titled
"Diana Stormrider Scope Mounting – Some Tricks And Tips"
by Stephen ArcherJuly 8, 2019
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I understand Diana Stormrider and DF MK2 utilize the same breech type
and scope mounting would pose the same issues for both.
For those folks who plan to install a scope (especially a Bug Buster) on their DF MK2,
there is an interesting article over at hardairmagazine.com titled
"Diana Stormrider Scope Mounting – Some Tricks And Tips"
by Stephen ArcherJuly 8, 2019
Here's an interesting part of that article:
However, once you try to install a magazine into the breech, you’ll likely find that the mag will contact the scope and not fit correctly into place.
https://hardairmagazine.com/buyers-guides/diana-stormrider-scope-mounting-some-tricks-and-tips/
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I understand Diana Stormrider and DF MK2 utilize the same breech type
and scope mounting would pose the same issues for both.
For those folks who plan to install a scope (especially a Bug Buster) on their DF MK2,
there is an interesting article over at hardairmagazine.com titled
"Diana Stormrider Scope Mounting – Some Tricks And Tips"
by Stephen ArcherJuly 8, 2019
Here's an interesting part of that article:
However, once you try to install a magazine into the breech, you’ll likely find that the mag will contact the scope and not fit correctly into place.
https://hardairmagazine.com/buyers-guides/diana-stormrider-scope-mounting-some-tricks-and-tips/
Use taller scope rings to prevent magazine interference, or you can just use a single shot tray. Again, I have a Stormrider and Bandit, one has a scope and one has a red dot. This is a non-issue, many PCP's use magazines that require taller scope rings, and the DF MKII is based on a PCP.
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I understand Diana Stormrider and DF MK2 utilize the same breech type
and scope mounting would pose the same issues for both.
For those folks who plan to install a scope (especially a Bug Buster) on their DF MK2,
there is an interesting article over at hardairmagazine.com titled
"Diana Stormrider Scope Mounting – Some Tricks And Tips"
by Stephen ArcherJuly 8, 2019
Here's an interesting part of that article:
However, once you try to install a magazine into the breech, you’ll likely find that the mag will contact the scope and not fit correctly into place.
https://hardairmagazine.com/buyers-guides/diana-stormrider-scope-mounting-some-tricks-and-tips/ (https://hardairmagazine.com/buyers-guides/diana-stormrider-scope-mounting-some-tricks-and-tips/)
or you can just use a single shot tray. Again, I have a Stormrider and Bandit, one has a scope and one has a red dot. This is a non-issue, many PCP's use magazines that require taller scope rings, and the DF MKII is based on a PCP.
Tom Gaylord seems to think this is more than a non issue.
Single shot tray slides easily
I’m shooting with the single shot tray and it slides out of place easily. As my finger tries to put the pellet into the trough the tray slides out of position. I wish it would stay in place a little better.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/)
Weak magnet, maybe?
It's great that you haven't had any trouble with your stormrider. Since the hardairmagazine article states its likely the mag will contact the scope and not fit correctly into place, it makes me wonder how many stormrider and/or dragonfly owners have had difficulties?
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I'm sure I'll be in the minority; but, I thought this concluding paragraph of Gaylords blog post was a tad disingenuous.
Summary
The bottom line is the Dragonfly Mark 2 is a fine multi-pump pneumatic. I think it gives the Benjamin Variable Pump a run for the money — especially since the Benjamin has a new synthetic stock that doesn’t work with open sights! The Dragonfly has more power, a better trigger and is easier to pump. And it’s either single-shot or a repeater, though being a multi-pump sort of negates that last feature. Added to all that the Dragonfly Mark 2 is less costly than the Benjamin. What’s not to like?
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/)
What's not to like, Mr. Gaylord asks?
I agree, the MK2 is a fine rifle compared to the turkey that is the Benjamin Variable Pump with its synthetic stock....but, why compare the MK2 to an obsolescent model and/or a failed design?
Why not compare the MK2 with the C362 instead?
Considering how the C362 has ... 'more power, a better trigger and is easier to pump'.
Paraphrasing Mr. Gaylords last sentence:
Added to all that the C362 is less costly than the Mk2 Dragonfly. What’s not to like?
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I really don't know why there are these claims about mags not fitting a scoped SPA gun, specifically this platform. As you can see below there is plenty of room. And those are medium rings. An over weight cockroach could easily walk through there.... :o
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All due respect but I don't place Mister Gaylord on a pedestal as some do.... :-X
I read his blog regarding guns I'm interested in, as well and many others.
It's kinda like one religion telling me I'm going to the devil if I don't follow their interpretation and another saying the same thing about theirs. And trust me, their are plenty of interpretations out there.
Who is right, who is wrong.... I reckon we won't know until it's too late.
Lets not elaborate on the analogy... that's not the topic.
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I understand Diana Stormrider and DF MK2 utilize the same breech type
and scope mounting would pose the same issues for both.
For those folks who plan to install a scope (especially a Bug Buster) on their DF MK2,
there is an interesting article over at hardairmagazine.com titled
"Diana Stormrider Scope Mounting – Some Tricks And Tips"
by Stephen ArcherJuly 8, 2019
Here's an interesting part of that article:
However, once you try to install a magazine into the breech, you’ll likely find that the mag will contact the scope and not fit correctly into place.
https://hardairmagazine.com/buyers-guides/diana-stormrider-scope-mounting-some-tricks-and-tips/ (https://hardairmagazine.com/buyers-guides/diana-stormrider-scope-mounting-some-tricks-and-tips/)
or you can just use a single shot tray. Again, I have a Stormrider and Bandit, one has a scope and one has a red dot. This is a non-issue, many PCP's use magazines that require taller scope rings, and the DF MKII is based on a PCP.
Tom Gaylord seems to think this is more than a non issue.
Single shot tray slides easily
I’m shooting with the single shot tray and it slides out of place easily. As my finger tries to put the pellet into the trough the tray slides out of position. I wish it would stay in place a little better.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/)
Weak magnet, maybe?
It's great that you haven't had any trouble with your stormrider. Since the hardairmagazine article states its likely the mag will contact the scope and not fit correctly into place, it makes me wonder how many stormrider and/or dragonfly owners have had difficulties?
If the magazine contacts the scope, adjust the scope like in the blog post (they had zero issues, perhaps you didn't read it?), use taller scope rings, or use shorter aftermarket magazines. It is literally that simple. The breech and magazines on a Stormrider are identical to the DF MKII. If I were to use the OEM magazines with the current scope rings I have, the magazine would contact the scope. I prefer CARM magazines, which also have a bit less profile, and they allow me to use a lower pair of scope rings. I also have scope rings that will clear the OEM magazine, I just don't like how high it places the scope, which is personal preference. Some shooters may want tall scope rings just to work better with their preferences, and then have no issues with the magazine.
Many people have been shooting thousands of PCP's and CO2 guns using the SPA metal breech with scopes for many years. This is not a new platform. If you check the comments of the link I posted to the DF MKI blog posts you will see many readers with SPA guns with scopes mounted. There are basically unlimited scope and ring options on the market, enough to suit any shooter seeking to put a scope on a DF MKII, or any SPA gun with this breech.
I will grant you that the breech isn't very long, especially forward of the magazine well. This keeps it light and less expensive, but also forces the front ring placement on most scopes. There are cantilevered mounts and aftermarket rail extensions for the breech (much like the Crosman "lego" guns) that can allow for more flexible scope mounting options.
My SST's for both of my .22 breeches and my .177 breech do not slide easily. Could just be a bad magnet or two on the demo rifle that Tom has.
Using the SST allows you to mount whatever optics you want and have no issues with magazine fitment, and the c362 doesn't even have the option for a magazine. You also can't mount a scope directly to a c362 without buying aftermarket rail mounts or a metal breech, which pushes the cost closer to the DF MKII. The factory sights on the c362 are better than the DF MKII/Stormrider, I'll grant you that. The factory sights on the SPA products are barely acceptable for 25 yard shooting, and I don't use them, but I've seen a few GTA members that love their Stormrider iron sights.
I think it's funny that you added to Tom's post.
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Are we speaking about the Bandit and Chaser breech as well? Isn't this also an SPA breech?
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Are we speaking about the Bandit and Chaser breech as well? Isn't this also an SPA breech?
Yes, it's basically the same breech. The Bandit/Chase breech has a square profile on the back and holes to mount a rear sight and the bolt is usually on the left hand side.
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I really don't know why there are these claims about mags not fitting a scoped SPA gun, specifically this platform. As you can see below there is plenty of room. And those are medium rings. An over weight cockroach could easily walk through there.... :o
+1 ;D
I don't know if mine (an Artemis LR700W from Krale) has a low, medium or high mount but it works perfectly, although there's not too much room between the rear sight and the scope. Incidentally, this rifle is really accurate and, I insist, it don't feel pumping it as a workout, as far I limit myself to 6 strokes and one or two 9 shots sessions.
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All due respect but I don't place Mister Gaylord on a pedestal as some do.... :-X
I read his blog regarding guns I'm interested in, as well and many others.
It's kinda like one religion telling me I'm going to the devil if I don't follow their interpretation and another saying the same thing about theirs. And trust me, their are plenty of interpretations out there.
Who is right, who is wrong.... I reckon we won't know until it's too late.
Lets not elaborate on the analogy... that's not the topic.
I've been reading Gaylords blog since 2009. After I became fond of it for the same reasons as you mentioned, I went back and read all of his reports / tests all the way back. His reports / tests influenced several of my air gun purchases.
That said, I don't put him on a pedestal either. Here's what kills me about his coverage of the Mk2.
PA has the C362 in stock. Why isn't Gaylord doing a report on that?
Maybe because the Mk2 costs twice as much? Trying to sell the more expensive, (and similar performing) product?
Look at this one, for example?
Trigger
You guys are gonna love this one because this rifle just keeps getting better. The Dragonfly Mark 2 trigger is two stage. Stage one is very long and stage two breaks crisply. And I do mean crisply. I don’t believe a lawyer has ever held this rifle!
Stage one of the trigger pull takes 2 pounds 14 ounces. Stage two breaks right at 4 pounds. Oh, go ahead and sit on your couches and gripe about the numbers if you want. I once saw reader Kevin guess that the 3-pound trigger pull on my Wilson Combat 1911 was one pound . That’s how nice this trigger is. It’s not adjustable and it doesn’t need to be.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-one/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-one/)
Mk2 has a non adjustable, 4 pound trigger?
Lovely. Most of the triggers on my airguns have a pull of 2 lbs or less.
Trigger pull on my 362 isn't 2# yet. I've been having too much fun shooting it to do any further trigger work.
After it passed the can test with flying colors at 4 pumps and 17.5 yards; I sighted it in at 25 yards using 6 pumps.
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Come to think of it: the Mk2 should be able to do the can test even better than either the C362 or the woodstocked C392 (synthetic 392 probably can too, but who cares about that one?).
We're all on the same page with the 'can test', aren't we?
Sheridan / Benjamin's trademark (along with 10y/.50 accuracy) promotion of giving the 392 four pumps for approx 515 fps / 8.4 fpe and shooting a can through and through at 15 yards? It's a good baseline for backyard hunting.
Isn't the MK2 good for 518 fps at 3 pumps?
That thought sure does get my 'Hmm...' sense to start twitching.
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Anyone know if the DF MK2 has a choked barrel ?
I thought the Crosman 362 had a choked barrel but now I understand it does not.
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Anyone know if the DF MK2 has a choked barrel ?
I thought the Crosman 362 had a choked barrel but now I understand it does not.
It's a safe assumption, my other SPA stuff has choked barrels.
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Welp, I was hoping I could post Gaylords 25 yard accuracy test of the MK2 with its new red dot sight today. Unfortunately, Tom has a new toy to test this week.
Apparently, Crosman is now selling its PCP version of the Diana Stormrider, called the "Icon".
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/crosman-icon-part-one/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/crosman-icon-part-one/)
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Welp, I was hoping I could post Gaylords 25 yard accuracy test of the MK2 with its new red dot sight today. Unfortunately, Tom has a new toy to test this week.
Apparently, Crosman is now selling its PCP version of the Diana Stormrider, called the "Icon".
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/crosman-icon-part-one/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/crosman-icon-part-one/)
The Icon is not made by SPA. More along the lines of the QB Chief series of guns
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I would like to see a barrel band on that gun.
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Welp, I was hoping I could post Gaylords 25 yard accuracy test of the MK2 with its new red dot sight today. Unfortunately, Tom has a new toy to test this week.
Apparently, Crosman is now selling its PCP version of the Diana Stormrider, called the "Icon".
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/crosman-icon-part-one/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/crosman-icon-part-one/)
The Icon is not made by SPA. More along the lines of the QB Chief series of guns
Yes, the Icon is not made by SPA. The Icon is made by Crosman.
Not a Beeman Chief II
Reader RidgeRunner said the following.
“Well, what TCFKAC has done is what they typically do. They repackaged the Beeman Chief 2 and call it their own. The packaging is kind of expensive also.”
Sorry, RidgeRunner, but I looked it over and the Icon is not a Beeman Chief II. It has some similar features like the bolt and the magazine/single-shot tray. Heck, the mags probably interchange. My Wilson Combat 1911 can use Colt 1911 magazines, too. It would be silly not to make it that way. But you can’t call my pistol a Colt.
The Icon’s trigger and safety are completely different, the rear sight and air tube hanger are different and more. The Icon has a threaded muzzle.
Companies are prone to use existing designs that have worked for them in the past. Look at Weihrauch. There is a lot of similarity among their springers. Or Diana. Remember the 34/36/38, and the 48/52? But it’s too much of a stretch to say the Icon is a repackaged Beeman Chief II.
Today I am testing the Crosman Icon. Believe me — there is plenty to consider here!
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/crosman-icon-part-two/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/crosman-icon-part-two/)
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I would like to see a barrel band on that gun.
Me too.
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My morning reading usually involves looking at Tom Gaylord's blog to see if it is of any interest to me.
Now I can get a re-run, Thanks for the information.
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I understand Diana Stormrider and DF MK2 utilize the same breech type
and scope mounting would pose the same issues for both.
For those folks who plan to install a scope (especially a Bug Buster) on their DF MK2,
there is an interesting article over at hardairmagazine.com titled
"Diana Stormrider Scope Mounting – Some Tricks And Tips"
by Stephen ArcherJuly 8, 2019
Here's an interesting part of that article:
However, once you try to install a magazine into the breech, you’ll likely find that the mag will contact the scope and not fit correctly into place.
https://hardairmagazine.com/buyers-guides/diana-stormrider-scope-mounting-some-tricks-and-tips/ (https://hardairmagazine.com/buyers-guides/diana-stormrider-scope-mounting-some-tricks-and-tips/)
or you can just use a single shot tray. Again, I have a Stormrider and Bandit, one has a scope and one has a red dot. This is a non-issue, many PCP's use magazines that require taller scope rings, and the DF MKII is based on a PCP.
Tom Gaylord seems to think this is more than a non issue.
Single shot tray slides easily
I’m shooting with the single shot tray and it slides out of place easily. As my finger tries to put the pellet into the trough the tray slides out of position. I wish it would stay in place a little better.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-four/)
Weak magnet, maybe?
It's great that you haven't had any trouble with your stormrider. Since the hardairmagazine article states its likely the mag will contact the scope and not fit correctly into place, it makes me wonder how many stormrider and/or dragonfly owners have had difficulties?
I think it's funny that you added to Tom's post.
This part?
Repost:
Paraphrasing Mr. Gaylords last sentence:
Added to all that the C362 is less costly than the Mk2 Dragonfly. What’s not to like?
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Paraphrasing: A restatement of a text or passage in another form or other words
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/paraphrasing (https://www.thefreedictionary.com/paraphrasing)
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My morning reading usually involves looking at Tom Gaylord's blog to see if it is of any interest to me.
Now I can get a re-run, Thanks for the information.
You're welcome.
Tom dropped the ball with this one:
Killing snakes with an airgun
by Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier) August 30, 2006
This is not your normal posting, because I don’t usually discuss killing critters with airguns. That’s not going to change, but a question last week prompted me to write this one post. A reader asked if there was a good semiauto pellet gun for under $100 that he might use to kill venomous snakes. Of course, there is no semiauto pellet rifle for less than $100 and even if there was, it wouldn’t be the thing for hunting snakes. What you want is a single-shot breakbarrel.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/08/killing-snakes-with-an-airgun/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/08/killing-snakes-with-an-airgun/)
Tom was posting of the phenomena of how rattlers will strike at a pellet shot at them. A pellet shot from a springer will often hit them between the eyes.
However....
A good semi auto pellet rifle under $100 to kill venomous snakes would be the Crosman 1077.
Mine flat out shreds them out to 15 yards.
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Welp, I was hoping I could post Gaylords 25 yard accuracy test of the MK2 with its new red dot sight today. Unfortunately, Tom has a new toy to test this week.
Apparently, Crosman is now selling its PCP version of the Diana Stormrider, called the "Icon".
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/crosman-icon-part-one/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/crosman-icon-part-one/)
The Icon is not made by SPA. More along the lines of the QB Chief series of guns
Yes, the Icon is not made by SPA. The Icon is made by Crosman.
Not a Beeman Chief II
Reader RidgeRunner said the following.
“Well, what TCFKAC has done is what they typically do. They repackaged the Beeman Chief 2 and call it their own. The packaging is kind of expensive also.”
Sorry, RidgeRunner, but I looked it over and the Icon is not a Beeman Chief II. It has some similar features like the bolt and the magazine/single-shot tray. Heck, the mags probably interchange. My Wilson Combat 1911 can use Colt 1911 magazines, too. It would be silly not to make it that way. But you can’t call my pistol a Colt.
The Icon’s trigger and safety are completely different, the rear sight and air tube hanger are different and more. The Icon has a threaded muzzle.
Companies are prone to use existing designs that have worked for them in the past. Look at Weihrauch. There is a lot of similarity among their springers. Or Diana. Remember the 34/36/38, and the 48/52? But it’s too much of a stretch to say the Icon is a repackaged Beeman Chief II.
Today I am testing the Crosman Icon. Believe me — there is plenty to consider here!
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/crosman-icon-part-two/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/crosman-icon-part-two/)
The Icon is not made in New York by Crosman, it says made in China on the side of the gun. When I say it's more along the lines of a Chief, I mean it's from that lineage and factory. Has Crosman made it their own, absolutely...they do this with most things that they bring in from other parts of the world (think about the Craftsman line that is made in Turkey).
And to be clear, I am not saying it's not made by Crosman, as they spend their time, money, and resources to bring these products into the US market and they also support these products on the back end with parts and warranty service. So while it may not be made in house, it still bears the brand name and comes with their backing/support and that definitely counts for something. IMO, that same line of thinking should also be applied to other manufacturers in the industry (most of them in my experience), as many of them invest considerable time, effort, and money into the development of new products and continued support down the line.
Just my two cents, don't want to further hijack the thread.
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I noticed hardairmagazine did a recent muzzle velocity/energy test on the Dragonfly MK2 (07 march 2022)
using the same pellets that were used on the Crosman 362 muzzle velocity/energe test (11 Jan 2022)
Hopefully the energy charts are readable and I'm allowed to post them.
(https://i.imgur.com/kstPOkZ.png?1)
Trying to post velocity charts, I hope they are readable.
(https://i.imgur.com/3dmwgzN.png?1)
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Tom Gaylord posted this morning how to mount a red dot sight to the MK2.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-six/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-six/)
Easy peasy. All one has to do is remove the rear sight, the front sight and the muzzle brake.
Here's a pic of the finished product: (and yes, the MK2 definitely needs a barrel band now.)
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/03-08-22-04-Dragonfly-free-floa (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/03-08-22-04-Dragonfly-free-floa)
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Seems to me there are better ways to mount a red dot or other optics. Tom must be out of those items I would use.
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Why can't tom mount things to the receiver like the rest of us? There's no need to remove the muzzle brake, front sight, or any of that mess. I have a holo sight mounted on my bandit and it does great.
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I think I missed the point, was Tom looking for a cleaned up look?
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Tom Gaylord posted this morning how to mount a red dot sight to the MK2.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-six/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-six/)
Easy peasy. All one has to do is remove the rear sight, the front sight and the muzzle brake.
Here's a pic of the finished product: (and yes, the MK2 definitely needs a barrel band now.)
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/03-08-22-04-Dragonfly-free-floa (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/03-08-22-04-Dragonfly-free-floa)
Seems to me there are better ways to mount a red dot or other optics. Tom must be out of those items I would use.
The 25 yard accuracy test with the red dot sight he mounted should be pretty interesting if he is going to go ahead without adding a barrel band to the Mk2.
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I don't think a second barrel band is a requisite for accuracy. I have a second band on my Stormrider, but the barrel still floats. I can take it out without loosening either band, and that goes for my other SPA gun as well with short or long barrel. If the breech is not aligned properly with the air tube, then you will not be able to slide the barrel out without loosening the bands and is no longer floating. I think a lot of people with bad accuracy out of SPA guns have a poorly aligned breech which is then forces the barrel into a curved shape by the barrel band(s). The benefit of having any barrel bands is to kelp keep POI locked in if the barrel is bumped, plus adding a band to a Bandit or Stormrider gives a short bottom pic rail. I also think they look better with a second barrel band, but that is purely subjective.
I really don't understand why Tom chose to mount his optic to the barrel band instead of the breech. There are also aftermarket rail options that fit between the factory barrel band and breech.
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10y accuracy test with a red dot sight.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-7/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-7/)
Tom said the trigger isn't working right.
"At this time in the test the trigger stopped firing the rifle every time. I would pull and pull and nothing happened. I eventually discovered that if I wiggled the trigger blade back and forth the trigger would work, but I am quite sure I slightly threw several shots in this group because I was playing with the trigger."
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IIR the DF2 has an adjustable trigger, that may have worked its way out of adjustment ???
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I don't get how, in his own words, this is the next best pumper to the Sheridan Supergrade if the trigger stopped working during testing? Sure, he's a an airgun salesman, (albeit he spends wayyyy too much time drifting from his straight edge razor hobby, to motorcycles, firearms, cats, jobs he had in his 20's, etc.) but that makes zero sense.
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LOL..... ShamWOW comes to mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q39yGLPkMY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q39yGLPkMY)
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LOL Sham Wow. A local radio station DJ's got fired, when they tested the sham wows absorbency over their control panel ;D
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I don't get how, in his own words, this is the next best pumper to the Sheridan Supergrade if the trigger stopped working during testing? Sure, he's a an airgun salesman, (albeit he spends wayyyy too much time drifting from his straight edge razor hobby, to motorcycles, firearms, cats, jobs he had in his 20's, etc.) but that makes zero sense.
The same reason you have to check the screws on a pumper or springer while breaking it in. I'm sure the trigger adjustment screws backed out. I had this problem with my Bandit before I put loctite on the adjustment grub screws. I'm sure you've made a silly mistake in your life, it doesn't mean you are incapable.
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I wonder how the transfer port will compare/contrast to the original Dragonfly, particularly in .177 (which has seemed a .22 bias).
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I wonder how the transfer port will compare/contrast to the original Dragonfly, particularly in .177 (which has seemed a .22 bias).
I assume this will use the same transfer port as the rest of the variations of this platform.
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I'm familiar with the adjustment screw backing out from use, a minor issue but that alone would knock it down quite a few pegs from the next best thing since a Supergrade. Maybe it's me.
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I'm familiar with the adjustment screw backing out from use, a minor issue but that alone would knock it down quite a few pegs from the next best thing since a Supergrade. Maybe it's me.
So the Sheridans never had screws back out, ever? My c362 had to have all screws torqued after 20-ish shots. This is just normal airgun break in stuff. I get that none of you want something that could best the legendary Sheridans and Benjamins of old, but it's time to let the torch get passed.
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1,170 Pumps! Testing Dragonfly Mark 2 Power Output
https://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/1170-pumps-testing-dragonfly-mark-2-power-output/
Quote:
However, as 686 FPS was achieved using 12 pumps, it’s clear that an additional three – to the maximum of 15 pumps – only added a further 10 FPS. Is that worthwhile? My aching arms said no…
Turning now to the heavier pellets. Here’s the results for the 19.0 Grain heavies.
This time, the maximum was 622 FPS after 15 pumps. As the gun produced 621 FPS after 12 pumps, it’s pretty clear that the Dragonfly was maxed out at that point.
The gun tested by HAM – serial number 1721229955214566J (can you believe that?) – produced a maximum of 15.4 Ft/Lbs with the Premier HPs. But with 15.0Ft/Lbs being achieved after 12 pumps, that’s the sweet spot for us.
Moving on to the heavier pellets, we see an increase in Muzzle Energy, as expected. This time it peaked at 16.3 Ft/Lbs after 15 pumps. Twelve pumps gave 16.2 Ft/Lbs.
This makes it obvious that the heavier pellets give a significant increase in power output for the same number of pumps. It also shows that – should you be happy with, for example, 14 Ft/Lbs of Muzzle Energy – that can be achieved by 8 pumps if shooting 19 Grain pellets. A total of 11 pumps will be necessary to match that power level using the 14.3 Grain pellet.
That’s a big argument in favor of using heavier pellets with the Dragonfly, right there.
--
WOW! C362 performance for $100 more......
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Big question for me right now is how does one make the Mk2 pump quiet? It's already been established the pump linkage makes a 'click' sound when the pump arm is closed.
(https://hardairmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/HAM-Dfly-1.jpg)
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My c362 pump action is far louder than even my Daisly 901. We get it, you really don't like the Dragonfly MKII.
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I'm familiar with the adjustment screw backing out from use, a minor issue but that alone would knock it down quite a few pegs from the next best thing since a Supergrade. Maybe it's me.
So the Sheridans never had screws back out, ever? My c362 had to have all screws torqued after 20-ish shots. This is just normal airgun break in stuff. I get that none of you want something that could best the legendary Sheridans and Benjamins of old, but it's time to let the torch get passed.
NO, they never had screws back out . You didn’t even need to “ break in “ Sheridan air rifles. They were all accurate right out of the box, unlike the ones mentioned in this thread.
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I'm familiar with the adjustment screw backing out from use, a minor issue but that alone would knock it down quite a few pegs from the next best thing since a Supergrade. Maybe it's me.
So the Sheridans never had screws back out, ever? My c362 had to have all screws torqued after 20-ish shots. This is just normal airgun break in stuff. I get that none of you want something that could best the legendary Sheridans and Benjamins of old, but it's time to let the torch get passed.
NO, they never had screws back out . You didn’t even need to “ break in “ Sheridan air rifles. They were all accurate right out of the box, unlike the ones mentioned in this thread.
Then why aren't they around anymore? There are plenty of posts on this forum about fasteners loosening up on all kinds of high end and low end guns. I'm just not sure why it matters.
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I guess only time will tell.
I'm sure there will be folks that love the Dragonfly.. I just won't be one of them.
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I'm familiar with the adjustment screw backing out from use, a minor issue but that alone would knock it down quite a few pegs from the next best thing since a Supergrade. Maybe it's me.
So the Sheridans never had screws back out, ever? My c362 had to have all screws torqued after 20-ish shots. This is just normal airgun break in stuff. I get that none of you want something that could best the legendary Sheridans and Benjamins of old, but it's time to let the torch get passed.
NO, they never had screws back out . You didn’t even need to “ break in “ Sheridan air rifles. They were all accurate right out of the box, unlike the ones mentioned in this thread.
Then why aren't they around anymore? There are plenty of posts on this forum about fasteners loosening up on all kinds of high end and low end guns. I'm just not sure why it matters.
You obviously are not familiar with Sheridans . There are plenty of Sheridans around . How many would you like ?? Enough said .
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Steve, random question. In the history of their 75 year existence how many Sheridans with less than 100 shots through them needed to be disassembled to have their trigger pins staked? At least half of them, right? ;) And to think this specific rifle was
probably sent to Tom Gaylord for evaluation by Seneca. They really crossed their T's and dotted their i's.
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What needs to be staked? The screws don't come with thread lock from the factory so you can adjust them to your liking... Elsewise they wouldn't be very adjustable now would they?
There are plenty of high end German springers out there that have to be tightened up after some shooting. This is an entry level MSP in a market with only one other .22 cal MSP that makes the same power from the factory. I don't see a Sheridan available through Pyramid Air in .22 caliber, but they do have c362's that need their screws tightened up after 100-ish shots.
It's hilarious to see grown men bash a rifle they don't have anything to do with. We get it, you don't like the rifle.
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Entry level pumper? Is there such a thing as a 'high end level" pumper.
Can someone enlighten me on those? I would like see what a high end pumper would be like.
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Since Jon’s question was to ME, I will answer it. I have a stable full of Sheridans & have never seen a single ONE that needed trigger repair. My 1959 which might have 100,000 pellets shot through it, still has the original trigger.
Space,
I don’t know if you are referring to me about arguing, because I am not. I said earlier that you are not familiar with Sheridans . That is very evident if you are looking on Pyramid for a new Sheridan !!
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Steve, random question. In the history of their 75 year existence how many Sheridans with less than 100 shots through them needed to be disassembled to have their trigger pins staked? At least half of them, right? ;) And to think this specific rifle was
probably sent to Tom Gaylord for evaluation by Seneca. They really crossed their T's and dotted their i's.
Seneca sent a rifle that needed to be fixed to PA as it turns out. It's fixed now though and its all good...that is, if a ...'long single stage pull with an indistinct break'... is a good thing. My Winchester 1977XS trigger is kinda like this now.
Good thing Tom knew how to fix it. Tyler is helping out too.
Makes me wonder how many 'average' owners would know how to fix their trigger when it breaks on their rifle.
Turns out the tool to fix the sear engagement trigger adjustment screw is the one we all know so well ... the 0.050-inch Allen wrench.
Seneca Dragonfly Mark 2 multi-pump rifle: Part eight
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-eight/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-eight/)
The comments are interesting for this segment of the review.
Like this one, for example:
Yogi March 14, 2022 at 12:15 am
B.B.
Sounds like the Dragonfly is a “Humpty Dumpty gun”! lol.
Glad you got it back together, now adjust the trigger properly.
-Y
PS sounds like a great way for PA to go bankrupt, having to fix all those broke triggers. Any explanation as to why it broke in the first place?
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Entry level pumper? Is there such a thing as a 'high end level" pumper.
Can someone enlighten me on those? I would like see what a high end pumper would be like.
I always wondered about that one too.
Would an example of a high end pumper be the Seneca Aspen?
I can't think of any offhand that are more expensive than the $300 it goes for at PA.
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This gave me a good laugh this morning! Apparently tightening small screws screws is too hard for you guys. If you want to really have something to trip over, google search the debacle with Diana having to recall some G1 Stormriders for a poorly designed trigger.
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I will say that a high end pumper would be a Sheridan Model A & B . No other pumper that I know of can touch the quality & precision of those.
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This gave me a good laugh this morning! Apparently tightening small screws screws is too hard for you guys. If you want to really have something to trip over, google search the debacle with Diana having to recall some G1 Stormriders for a poorly designed trigger.
Same trigger is on the Dragonfly.
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This gave me a good laugh this morning! Apparently tightening small screws screws is too hard for you guys. If you want to really have something to trip over, google search the debacle with Diana having to recall some G1 Stormriders for a poorly designed trigger.
Same trigger is on the Dragonfly.
(Bazinga)
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This gave me a good laugh this morning! Apparently tightening small screws screws is too hard for you guys. If you want to really have something to trip over, google search the debacle with Diana having to recall some G1 Stormriders for a poorly designed trigger.
Same trigger is on the Dragonfly.
That's not correct. The recall for the first version of the DIT trigger (the two stage adjustable version) found on the Gen2 version of the gun, not the original stormrider trigger.
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This gave me a good laugh this morning! Apparently tightening small screws screws is too hard for you guys. If you want to really have something to trip over, google search the debacle with Diana having to recall some G1 Stormriders for a poorly designed trigger.
Same trigger is on the Dragonfly.
That's not correct. The recall for the first version of the DIT trigger (the two stage adjustable version) found on the Gen2 version of the gun, not the original stormrider trigger.
Just to clarify... the Gen2 trigger and the Dragonfly trigger are now the same?
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This gave me a good laugh this morning! Apparently tightening small screws screws is too hard for you guys. If you want to really have something to trip over, google search the debacle with Diana having to recall some G1 Stormriders for a poorly designed trigger.
Same trigger is on the Dragonfly.
That's not correct. The recall for the first version of the DIT trigger (the two stage adjustable version) found on the Gen2 version of the gun, not the original stormrider trigger.
Just to clarify... the Gen2 trigger and the Dragonfly trigger are now the same?
They are not the same. The Dragonfly trigger is the same as the original Stormrider trigger (Gen1), which is the same as the Artemis PR900 (I think that's the model) trigger. The DIT trigger that Diana developed with SPA for the Gen2 Stormrider was the one that was part of the recall a few years back, and has since been improved and trouble free.
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This gave me a good laugh this morning! Apparently tightening small screws screws is too hard for you guys. If you want to really have something to trip over, google search the debacle with Diana having to recall some G1 Stormriders for a poorly designed trigger.
Same trigger is on the Dragonfly.
That's not correct. The recall for the first version of the DIT trigger (the two stage adjustable version) found on the Gen2 version of the gun, not the original stormrider trigger.
Thanks for the clarification! I'm glad to hear that as well since my Stormrider/PR900/CR600 hybrid has the G1 trigger, but I do wish it had the G2 trigger group.
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This gave me a good laugh this morning! Apparently tightening small screws screws is too hard for you guys. If you want to really have something to trip over, google search the debacle with Diana having to recall some G1 Stormriders for a poorly designed trigger.
Same trigger is on the Dragonfly.
That's not correct. The recall for the first version of the DIT trigger (the two stage adjustable version) found on the Gen2 version of the gun, not the original stormrider trigger.
Just to clarify... the Gen2 trigger and the Dragonfly trigger are now the same?
They are not the same. The Dragonfly trigger is the same as the original Stormrider trigger (Gen1), which is the same as the Artemis PR900 (I think that's the model) trigger. The DIT trigger that Diana developed with SPA for the Gen2 Stormrider was the one that was part of the recall a few years back, and has since been improved and trouble free.
Is that not what I said?
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This gave me a good laugh this morning! Apparently tightening small screws screws is too hard for you guys. If you want to really have something to trip over, google search the debacle with Diana having to recall some G1 Stormriders for a poorly designed trigger.
Same trigger is on the Dragonfly.
That's not correct. The recall for the first version of the DIT trigger (the two stage adjustable version) found on the Gen2 version of the gun, not the original stormrider trigger.
Just to clarify... the Gen2 trigger and the Dragonfly trigger are now the same?
They are not the same. The Dragonfly trigger is the same as the original Stormrider trigger (Gen1), which is the same as the Artemis PR900 (I think that's the model) trigger. The DIT trigger that Diana developed with SPA for the Gen2 Stormrider was the one that was part of the recall a few years back, and has since been improved and trouble free.
Is that not what I said?
Was just trying to clarify that it is NOT the same trigger that was recalled.
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Got ya.... ;)
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as far as expensive pumpers... an early supergrade was very expensive (47.50$ ) in the mid to late 50s ( that would be around 480$ today). There was also a Titan (UK made) that was a SSP 12 ft gun... it was expensive then (1980s i believe) and is unobtanium now. I think the Sharp Ace was also in the 300$ range, wasnt it?
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I wasn't just bashing the Dragonfly MK2, btw. Many new airguns need work straight out of the box, which is ridiculous. Why anyone would want to be first in line for a new Hatsan is beyond me. That's like paying to stand in line and get kicked in the b@//$.
I was debating between the new Dragonfly and Crosman 362, I usually stick to vintage guns because the quality is so much higher. I didnt know the 362 was built in America. I couldn't care less about being a multishot, or pump assist. The 362 is a couple of foot lbs less powerful, but it's built on the proven 13XX platform, and mods are so easy. You shouldn't have to tinker on a brand new gun just to make it shoot though.
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I wasn't just bashing the Dragonfly MK2, btw. Many new airguns need work straight out of the box, which is ridiculous. Why anyone would want to be first in line for a new Hatsan is beyond me. That's like paying to stand in line and get kicked in the b@//$.
I was debating between the new Dragonfly and Crosman 362, I usually stick to vintage guns because the quality is so much higher. I didnt know the 362 was built in America. I couldn't care less about being a multishot, or pump assist. The 362 is a couple of foot lbs less powerful, but it's built on the proven 13XX platform, and mods are so easy. You shouldn't have to tinker on a brand new gun just to make it shoot though.
Tom didn't have to tinker to get his DF MKII to shoot, but he did get unlucky and the screws backed out. It happens, and I agree that no gun should have to have the screws tightened or tinkering to shoot well. The 362 is not perfect out of the box either, mine had to have the screws tightened, front sight adjusted, and a bit of filing on the rear sight to get it on target for me. Even with my modifications to the rear sight I'm still not perfect. To make this gun really shoot perfect I'd have to invest in a different rear sight. Plus mine leaked out of the box and didn't figure it out until I had swapped breeches and voided the warranty.
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I wasn't just bashing the Dragonfly MK2, btw. Many new airguns need work straight out of the box, which is ridiculous. Why anyone would want to be first in line for a new Hatsan is beyond me. That's like paying to stand in line and get kicked in the b@//$.
I was debating between the new Dragonfly and Crosman 362, I usually stick to vintage guns because the quality is so much higher. I didnt know the 362 was built in America. I couldn't care less about being a multishot, or pump assist. The 362 is a couple of foot lbs less powerful, but it's built on the proven 13XX platform, and mods are so easy. You shouldn't have to tinker on a brand new gun just to make it shoot though.
You're right. You shouldn't have to tinker on a brand new gun just to make it shoot.
C362 pumping effort isn't too different from the pump assisted MK2.
Pump effort
Next I tested the effort required to pump the rifle. On this one I measured all the strokes, from one to eight.
Pumps….Effort in lbs.
1……………….15
2……………….18
3……………….20
4……………….24
5……………….23
6……………….24
7……………….24
8……………….24
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/crosman-362-multi-pump-pellet-rifle-part-two/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/crosman-362-multi-pump-pellet-rifle-part-two/)
Sure, there will be those who will start screaming ... A TEN POUND DIFFERENCE in pumping?
But, objectively speaking, there is little perceived difference.
I'm not seeing the 362 as being a couple of fpe less powerful than the MK2.
I'm seeing similar performance between the 2 rifles.
Only difference is you have to pump the Mk2 more to achieve the same power level of the 362.
Quote:
The power level for 14 Ft/Lbs of Muzzle Energy – that can be achieved by 8 pumps if shooting 19 Grain pellets. A total of 11 pumps will be necessary to match that power level using the 14.3 Grain pellet.
https://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/1170-pumps-testing-dragonfly-mark-2-power-output/ (https://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/1170-pumps-testing-dragonfly-mark-2-power-output/)
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For what it's worth... I try not to compare side by side unless I have both in my hands. We never really know who is working for who.
I do appreciate your findings on the C362.
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Maybe there is something weird going on inside of my c362, the effort for pump six and up is like cocking my springer.
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For what it's worth... I try not to compare side by side unless I have both in my hands. We never really know who is working for who.
I do appreciate your findings on the C362.
We never really know who is working for who?
I kinda had to chuckle a little bit when I first read that.
I'm guffawing now while typing this.
Is that how things are nowadays? Really?
Pro 362 and/or objective about MK2 = Crosman employee and/or shill?
Conversely I suppose ... Pro MK2 and.or objective about 362 = Air Venturi / Seneca employee and/or shill?
So if I post at another gate, say the projectile gate, for example?
I come out in favor of Jsb 15.89; but, find reasons to poke at H&N 14.66.
Then, I'm a salesman for Jsb? Is that how it goes?
Because, we never really know who is working for who?
I can't be an air gun enthusiast that does due diligence on everything I come across?
Because, we never really know who is working for who?
Truth to tell, ... I'm thinking about adding this to my GTA signature.
It's really funny. LOL
(https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/12-05-16-02-Benjamin-392-pump-assist-graph.jpg)
Anyway, until we can compare both rifles in our hands, we do have the above graph.
Pump #2 with the 392 is 25 pounds of pumping effort.
I can't say how hard the 2nd pump of your 392 is for you or for anyone else who owns a Benji 392.
I can only say how much effort it is for me.
This is what I will say ... wait for it...(you know how we Crosmen salesmen are about making our clientele wait....LOL)
The effort for the 2nd pump of my Benji 392 is one pound more than the pumping effort is for pumps 4-8 for the 362. Which is easy peasy.
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We never really know who is working for who.
Or, arguing in the alternative ... these are the stats for this thread.
144 Replies
2689 Views
You'd have to go back 4 pages to find another thread with comparable replies/views.
Had I not been posting in this thread, would there be 9 pages in it?
Might it be more likely this thread would be on a back page?
How much interest have I personally developed in the Mk2?
Considerable interest, I would think.
Yes Bill, I actually am egocentric enough to believe I can influence certain events.
So how'm I doing in my secret role as an AV / Seneca shill?
Not bad, huh? ;)
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Is there any chance we can get back to the OP? ::)
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Is there any chance we can get back to the OP? ::)
I will when mine arrives ... someday soon I hope LOL
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;D ;)
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What happened to FX Independence?
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Is there any chance we can get back to the OP? ::)
I will when mine arrives ... someday soon I hope LOL
[chuckling] good one
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Shooting my first gen Dragonfly .177 today, I noticed that after a couple years of regular use the pseudo-two-stage, single stage trigger as described by Tom Gaylord in his blog (and found on my rifle as well) has become a consistent, actual two stage trigger. In other words, there is a reliable, crisp wall where there wasn't one before. Nice break weight too. I mostly shoot at one pump or two, occasionally more to get enough power to hit the reset target on a plinking target trap with a lead free Daisy.
I used electrical tape and foam to quiet the pumping as well as a carefully rolled piece of electrical tape wedged between the muzzle and lower pump tube for stability. Those mods took dome trial and error at first and since have worked and held up well. Tried a few scopes that doubled as pump handles and landed on simmons 4x32, which suits my purposes well and leaves room for the mags and single tray finger access.
The transfer port has never smoothed out as much ad I'd like. Maybe after another year of the harder lead free wadcutters it might?
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We never really know who is working for who.
Or, arguing in the alternative ... these are the stats for this thread.
144 Replies
2689 Views
You'd have to go back 4 pages to find another thread with comparable replies/views.
Had I not been posting in this thread, would there be 9 pages in it?
Might it be more likely this thread would be on a back page?
How much interest have I personally developed in the Mk2?
Considerable interest, I would think.
Yes Bill, I actually am egocentric enough to believe I can influence certain events.
So how'm I doing in my secret role as an AV / Seneca shill?
Not bad, huh? ;)
LOL.... chock one up for keeping things simple..
Did I not give credit to you for posting your personal experience with the C362?
As for the comparison, if I'm mistaken and you actually own an MK2, you are basing your comparison on the reportings of an individual who exclusively blogs for a specific distributor.
At no point did I label you, or anyone else for that matter, as a shill.
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What happened to FX Independence?
Is that like a Seneca Aspen?
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We never really know who is working for who.
Or, arguing in the alternative ... these are the stats for this thread.
144 Replies
2689 Views
You'd have to go back 4 pages to find another thread with comparable replies/views.
Had I not been posting in this thread, would there be 9 pages in it?
Might it be more likely this thread would be on a back page?
How much interest have I personally developed in the Mk2?
Considerable interest, I would think.
Yes Bill, I actually am egocentric enough to believe I can influence certain events.
So how'm I doing in my secret role as an AV / Seneca shill?
Not bad, huh? ;)
LOL.... chock one up for keeping things simple..
Did I not give credit to you for posting your personal experience with the C362?
As for the comparison, if I'm mistaken and you actually own an MK2, you are basing your comparison on the reportings of an individual who exclusively blogs for a specific distributor.
At no point did I label you, or anyone else for that matter, as a shill.
Thank you for giving me credit for posting about my personal experience with the C362.
Sure. I know. 'Shill' and/or 'Crosman employee' and/or 'AV / Seneca employee' was solely my description for what I thought you were inferring.
Nope. I don't own an MK2. To the best of my knowledge, there is only one MK2 and it is being tested by Tyler and Gaylord, On the other hand, hardairmag tested one, so there may be more becoming available. Or, HAM might have done their testing on the same rifle previously tested by Tyler and Gaylord. I do not know if it is the same rifle or not.
Consider? The Mk2 is being marketed as an air gun for people who essentially find the pumping effort of the 2nd pump of a 392 to be uncomfy for them. The same (or less) pumping effort for pumps 4-8 with the 362.
Same power for twice the cost and twice the pumps.
And then, there's the 'click' when the pumping arm of the Mk2 is closed that isn't being discussed. But, possibly should be.
(https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/02-02-22-04-Dragonfly-pump-arm.jpg)
Felt on the linkage in the pump arm and on the pump tube will help; sure, but the 'click' is from that 3rd linkage in the middle, I would think.
(https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/02-02-22-02-Dragonfly-linkage-copy.jpg)
How many pumps for decent power with the MK2?
Reposted Quote:
The power level for 14 Ft/Lbs of Muzzle Energy – that can be achieved by 8 pumps if shooting 19 Grain pellets. A total of 11 pumps will be necessary to match that power level using the 14.3 Grain pellet.
Hmm, so 8 clicks for heavy pellets and 11 clicks for 14.3 gr pellets?
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For the record, there are around 20 Mk2’s out there in the wild being tested/evaluated currently. No one has the same gun as anyone else.
You’ll see more content coming out over the next couple of months as we get closer to the guns actually arriving.
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It's just silly that we only talk about the DF MKII shortcomings, but only praises for the c362.
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If I had the mk2 and heard the click from the middle part where metals meet, I might try a little electrical tape there to dampen it.
Looking forward to more experiences folks share as the gun hits the market. I really like the gen 1 and with so many parts in common between the two, more novel solutions for the transfer port issue on the .177 might also appear.
I also have a pp750 and appreciate the value of multiple guns from the same factory in the stable. With a little grinding down of the draganfly mag, the mags become usable for both, which is nice.
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If I had the mk2 and heard the click from the middle part where metals meet, I might try a little electrical tape there to dampen it.
Good idea.
That's the kind of discussions everyone should be having instead of the dickering back and forth.
Correcting any shortcomings ... before ... the rifle hits the shelves this summer.
Thataway when new users encounter the click for themselves and/or a wonky trigger or anything else that's likely to arise, GTA will already have a fix for it. And, search engine pages will reflect that.
Should boost the GTA membership roll somewhat.
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I'm sure there will be a fan base for it. As we have seen, there are several who don't mind pumping 12 - 15 strokes for more power.
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If I had the mk2 and heard the click from the middle part where metals meet, I might try a little electrical tape there to dampen it.
Looking forward to more experiences folks share as the gun hits the market. I really like the gen 1 and with so many parts in common between the two, more novel solutions for the transfer port issue on the .177 might also appear.
I also have a pp750 and appreciate the value of multiple guns from the same factory in the stable. With a little grinding down of the draganfly mag, the mags become usable for both, which is nice.
CARM mags might be the same for both PP750 and Stormrider/Bandit/Chaser/etc.
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I hope when these get in members hands that they are positive. Maybe it's not always just the technical stuff. Sometimes it's the intangibles, ready to scope, self contained magazine repeater, WOOD stock. Hopefully it just feels good?!? Anyway I hope it's a winner
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I hope when these get in members hands that they are positive. Maybe it's not always just the technical stuff. Sometimes it's the intangibles, ready to scope, self contained magazine repeater, WOOD stock. Hopefully it just feels good?!? Anyway I hope it's a winner
My gen 1 has the point of balance right where the wood pump arm meets the stock. The mk2 will likely have a balance point more towards the muzzle than the gen 1 with the added weight of the metal and larger wood pump arm. I have long arms, wonder how that would be.
I guess my 460 and my k98 would be a similar scenario except my 460 is scoped and my k98 is not.
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If I had the mk2 and heard the click from the middle part where metals meet, I might try a little electrical tape there to dampen it.
Looking forward to more experiences folks share as the gun hits the market. I really like the gen 1 and with so many parts in common between the two, more novel solutions for the transfer port issue on the .177 might also appear.
I also have a pp750 and appreciate the value of multiple guns from the same factory in the stable. With a little grinding down of the draganfly mag, the mags become usable for both, which is nice.
CARM mags might be the same for both PP750 and Stormrider/Bandit/Chaser/etc.
Interesting. Where would you recommend ordering from?
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If I had the mk2 and heard the click from the middle part where metals meet, I might try a little electrical tape there to dampen it.
Looking forward to more experiences folks share as the gun hits the market. I really like the gen 1 and with so many parts in common between the two, more novel solutions for the transfer port issue on the .177 might also appear.
I also have a pp750 and appreciate the value of multiple guns from the same factory in the stable. With a little grinding down of the draganfly mag, the mags become usable for both, which is nice.
CARM mags might be the same for both PP750 and Stormrider/Bandit/Chaser/etc.
Interesting. Where would you recommend ordering from?
Factory direct https://www.carm-magazines.com/carm-magazines.aspx (https://www.carm-magazines.com/carm-magazines.aspx)
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Thanks for the link!
To work in the pp750 as well, they'd need to be ground down a bit (just like the dragonfly mag did).
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Top is ground down except for a small nipple of sorts at the far right.
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I had a thought on the DF2....
I'm wondering if it can be tuned to retain enough air after one shot to be able to add 5 pumps to take it back to full power. Kinda like the Seneca Aspen with it's 1800 psi precharged chamber but at a much lower scale.
The claim is that the pumping effort remains the same. My question is... would the power be any better using the upper half of the volume than it would be at the lower half of the volume?
Food for thought.
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I had a thought on the DF2....
I'm wondering if it can be tuned to retain enough air after one shot to be able to add 5 pumps to take it back to full power. Kinda like the Seneca Aspen with it's 1800 psi precharged chamber but at a much lower scale.
The claim is that the pumping effort remains the same. My question is... would the power be any better using the upper half of the volume than it would be at the lower half of the volume?
Food for thought.
Interesting... hammer adjustment as a starting point? Never attempted such a tune myself. What might be involved?
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I think the robust pump linkage on the DF MKII will lend itself to mods better than the c362.
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If I had the mk2 and heard the click from the middle part where metals meet, I might try a little electrical tape there to dampen it.
Which part of the middle part of the linkage do you think that little electrical tape should be applied to dampen it?
(https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/02-02-22-02-Dragonfly-linkage-copy.jpg)
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If I had the mk2 and heard the click from the middle part where metals meet, I might try a little electrical tape there to dampen it.
Which part of the middle part of the linkage do you think that little electrical tape should be applied to dampen it?
(https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/02-02-22-02-Dragonfly-linkage-copy.jpg)
Hard to say, but judging from what I can see in the picture, I might start with wrapiing the middle of the three pieces at the points of clicky contact (should they exist). Then I might try a piece of tape on the outer pieces at points of contact. How dampened the sound of the wood pump arm hitting can become might be a baseline for how audible any other noises such as clicks might be. It's hard to say without one to work on.
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I had a thought on the DF2....
I'm wondering if it can be tuned to retain enough air after one shot to be able to add 5 pumps to take it back to full power. Kinda like the Seneca Aspen with it's 1800 psi precharged chamber but at a much lower scale.
The claim is that the pumping effort remains the same. My question is... would the power be any better using the upper half of the volume than it would be at the lower half of the volume?
Food for thought.
Interesting... hammer adjustment as a starting point? Never attempted such a tune myself. What might be involved?
Maybe hammer and valve spring s
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PA 25 yard accuracy test:
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-nine/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-nine/)
Top group was AA 18 gr domes which shot a 1.5 inch group at 25 yards.
Looks to me like the MK2 with a red dot sight is about as accurate at 25 yards as a peep sighted Benji 392 using Crosman pellets.
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Golly! This thread was down the page a little. Time to bring it back up to the top of the page where it belongs.
Anyway, I had a thought as to the controversy regarding which pumper is presumably better... the 362 or the yet to be thoroughly worked over Mk2 ... so while we wait for PA's 25 yard accuracy test with a scoped Mk2, lets compare something else?
Does Air Venturi plan on offering alternate length barrels and/or is it already offering them in other models using the same platform? Admittedly, this is a gray area for me.
Today I ordered a .22 SE Disco barrel and a Maximus slip on adapter for a 1/2-20 can.
Shortly, I'll be determining the difference in power and hopefully a tad better accuracy as well. I'm guesstimating a conservative 698 fps/15 fpe at 8 pumps for the 24 inch barrel using a 14.3 cphp/cpum.
I think I'm going to like having a longer barreled version of the 362.
The Mk2 with its 22.75 inch barrel might well be comparable to the 362 with a 24 inch barrel.
We'll all have to see later this summer.
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Golly! This thread was down the page a little. Time to bring it back up to the top of the page where it belongs.
Anyway, I had a thought as to the controversy regarding which pumper is presumably better... the 362 or the yet to be thoroughly worked over Mk2 ... so while we wait for PA's 25 yard accuracy test with a scoped Mk2, lets compare something else?
Does Air Venturi plan on offering alternate length barrels and/or is it already offering them in other models using the same platform? Admittedly, this is a gray area for me.
Today I ordered a .22 SE Disco barrel and a Maximus slip on adapter for a 1/2-20 can.
Shortly, I'll be determining the difference in power and hopefully a tad better accuracy as well. I'm guesstimating a conservative 598 fps/15 fpe at 8 pumps for the 24 inch barrel using a 14.3 cphp/cpum.
I think I'm going to like having a longer barreled version of the 362.
The Mk2 with its 22.75 inch barrel might well be comparable to the 362 with a 24 inch barrel.
We'll all have to see later this summer.
Why not post on the Crosman threads? This thread is not about the C362. I also don't think you will pick up any velocity going to a longer barrel, someone already tried, it's on the C362 thread. At least, you won't pick up any velocity with a longer barrel and everything else as it is from the factory. I thought about you the other day when I was making ragged single hole groups with my Stormrider with receiver mounted scope and magazines.
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Since the pumping efficiency of the Mk2 hits a wall at stroke #10, I'm thinking rubber donut.
Pumps…….Velocity
3 428
4 476
5 518
6 553
7 564
8 583
9 589
10 602
11 601
12 617
13 605
14 617
15 618
Might not be a bad idea for Mk2 buyers and/or users of the MK1 to dump the little rubber doughnut:
(https://airgunwarriors.com/wp-content/uploads/wpforo/attachments/177/thumbnail/3317-DaffyDfly.JPG)
Since it appears to affect pumping efficiency.
https://airgunwarriors.com/community/airgun-talk/that-daffy-dfly-piston/#post-9353
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It does appear as though removal of the rubber doughnut in the Mk's is beneficial.
Quotes:
Noticed guys had discovered a governor or controller to over pumping in the form of a little half inch long black rubber link in the otherwise sturdy looking adjustable flat top pump piston/rod with o-ring seal. Possibly Steve W. was first to notice it. Got rid of that and replaced it with steel flat washers!
Before the mod high mid to top end was "getting robbed" - here's 6 pumps shooting H&N FTTs 5.53 14.66 gr. (611 fps MV) and 8 pumps (618 fps MV). After the mod same pellet shoots 650 fps MV on 8 pumps and 675 fps MV on 10 pumps (no residual air in valve). A 21.14 gr. H&N Baracuda 5.52 will launch at 615 fps MV on 10 pumps.
4 pumps mod or not FTTs are hitting 550 fps MV - that's enough to head or heart/lung squirrels and rabbits dead out to 25-30 yds. I've got another little Bushnell 3 MOA red-dot sight like the one I mounted on the Crosman Legacy so soon I'll see what this pumper thumper can do on paper.
A few before and after removing/replacing the "rubber donut" using Crosman 7.9 gr. in a .177 Seneca Dragonfly:
Before 4p = 700 fps MV 8p = 810 and After 4p = 740 and 8p = 865. I think he got closer to perfect in mating or closing the gap between piston face and valve face. I'm satisfied with mine but if I had to go back inside I'd turn the rod adjustment about a half turn 🙂 Heck most of the time using my .22 4 pumps is where I'll "hang out"
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/thedianawerkcollective/seneca-dragonfly-dfly-22-msp-pumper-after-rubber-d-t14538.html (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/thedianawerkcollective/seneca-dragonfly-dfly-22-msp-pumper-after-rubber-d-t14538.html)
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Interesting doughnut discovery! How did the disassembly process go? Happen to have an after pic to go with the before pic? Thanks for the info on this mod!
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If the "donut" functions the same as the "elastomer spring" in Daisy rifles, it is a necessary evil as the piston
will bottom out against chamber seal parts. That bumper provides some "give" in order to prevent wear and tear on the other parts...
In fact, the assy shown in virtually identical that used in the Daisy 880 platform
BTW...that donut is preloaded...it requires a sizable amount of force to compress.........
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Interesting doughnut discovery! How did the disassembly process go? Happen to have an after pic to go with the before pic? Thanks for the info on this mod!
The info on the disassembly should be at the 2 links I posted. Not my discovery at all. I'm just tracking down info as always. Doing due diligence.
Originally I posted seeking info on whether AV was planning on offering alternate length barrels for the Mk2 like Crosman does with the 362. Apparently not. That may turn out to be a marketing blunder on AV's part.
I started a thread in the CB gate pertaining to David Grimes of Alchemy Airwerks putting out steroided versions of the 362 in .22 and .177 caliber.
I haven't noticed any 3rd party vendors doing that with the Mk2, have you?
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Interesting doughnut discovery! How did the disassembly process go? Happen to have an after pic to go with the before pic? Thanks for the info on this mod!
The info on the disassembly should be at the 2 links I posted. Not my discovery at all. I'm just tracking down info as always. Doing due diligence.
Originally I posted seeking info on whether AV was planning on offering alternate length barrels for the Mk2 like Crosman does with the 362. Apparently not. That may turn out to be a marketing blunder on AV's part.
I started a thread in the CB gate pertaining to David Grimes of Alchemy Airwerks putting out steroided versions of the 362 in .22 and .177 caliber.
I haven't noticed any 3rd party vendors doing that with the Mk2, have you?
The DF MKII is already using the longest barrels that SPA makes, before that the DF MKI/LR500 were the longest barrels. It's not like Crosman makes any longer barrels for the C362, people are just swapping barrels from other Crosman guns. The one thing I dislike about SPA is the difficulty in getting new barrels. Some day I'd like to make some friends/paid relationship with a machinist who can turn barrel blanks into whatever I need. Honestly, with the exception of some of the high end gun makers and Crosman, it's hard to get a new barrel for anything. It's such an issue that there are even some threads where folks are asking if PB barrels can be adapted to HPA.
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Does anyone think the Mk2 would benefit from a longer barrel?
I think it would be beneficial for both its accuracy and power were a 26 inch barrel available for it.
Crosman is working overtime at present pumping out 24 inch Disco SE barrels in .177 and .22.
Doesn't take a brain of Socrates to figure out which rifle they're being put on.
I spent a fair penny on barrels this past week. J/s it might be a good idea if AV did the same thing cause there's gold in them thar hills!
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Does anyone think the Mk2 would benefit from a longer barrel?
I think it would be beneficial for both its accuracy and power were a 26 inch barrel available for it.
Crosman is working overtime at present pumping out 24 inch Disco SE barrels in .177 and .22.
Doesn't take a brain of Socrates to figure out which rifle they're being put on.
I spent a fair penny on barrels this past week. J/s it might be a good idea if AV did the same thing cause there's gold in them thar hills!
A longer barrel does not automatically mean more accuracy. It can make shooting more difficult due a longer dwell time in the barrel. Generally speaking it is easier to get tight groups with a short barrel, but a longer barrel CAN be capable of better accuracy. It's very likely that the DF MKII has a barrel length that is matched to the valve size, just like the C362. As I said, the DF MKII has a longer barrel than the Stormrider/PR900/CR600 or DF MKI/LR500.
I don't understand why everything is a ^*%$#@ match between the C362 and DF MKII. It's like a Camaro VS Mustang thread.
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Does anyone think the Mk2 would benefit from a longer barrel?
I think it would be beneficial for both its accuracy and power were a 26 inch barrel available for it.
Crosman is working overtime at present pumping out 24 inch Disco SE barrels in .177 and .22.
Doesn't take a brain of Socrates to figure out which rifle they're being put on.
I spent a fair penny on barrels this past week. J/s it might be a good idea if AV did the same thing cause there's gold in them thar hills!
A longer barrel does not automatically mean more accuracy. It can make shooting more difficult due a longer dwell time in the barrel. Generally speaking it is easier to get tight groups with a short barrel, but a longer barrel CAN be capable of better accuracy. It's very likely that the DF MKII has a barrel length that is matched to the valve size, just like the C362. As I said, the DF MKII has a longer barrel than the Stormrider/PR900/CR600 or DF MKI/LR500.
I don't understand why everything is a ^*%$#@ match between the C362 and DF MKII. It's like a Camaro VS Mustang thread.
That's hilarious. It has gone that way a bit despite the original post [chuckling]
Regarding barrel swaps, my PP750 is leaking slowly and is due for a tear down. I wonder if I could swap that pistol barrel onto the original Dragonfly for a weekend just to see what happens in accuracy and power with one and two pumps, which is how this gun is most often used at my home range.
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Does anyone think the Mk2 would benefit from a longer barrel?
I spent a fair penny on barrels this past week. J/s it might be a good idea if AV did the same thing cause there's gold in them thar hills!
That's hilarious. It has gone that way a bit despite the original post [chuckling]
Regarding barrel swaps, my PP750 is leaking slowly and is due for a tear down. I wonder if I could swap that pistol barrel onto the original Dragonfly for a weekend just to see what happens in accuracy and power with one and two pumps, which is how this gun is most often used at my home range.
My .22 SE barrel arrived yesterday. I swapped barrels and immediately noticed more pep to my pumps and better accuracy than with the OEM 21" barrel.
My .177 SE barrel will be arriving today so I'll be swapping barrels again.
The .177 barrel will likely stay on it for awhile.
.177 362's are turning out to be real sleepers.
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Does anyone think the Mk2 would benefit from a longer barrel?
I think it would be beneficial for both its accuracy and power were a 26 inch barrel available for it.
Crosman is working overtime at present pumping out 24 inch Disco SE barrels in .177 and .22.
Doesn't take a brain of Socrates to figure out which rifle they're being put on.
I spent a fair penny on barrels this past week. J/s it might be a good idea if AV did the same thing cause there's gold in them thar hills!
A longer barrel does not automatically mean more accuracy. It can make shooting more difficult due a longer dwell time in the barrel. Generally speaking it is easier to get tight groups with a short barrel, but a longer barrel CAN be capable of better accuracy. It's very likely that the DF MKII has a barrel length that is matched to the valve size, just like the C362. As I said, the DF MKII has a longer barrel than the Stormrider/PR900/CR600 or DF MKI/LR500.
I don't understand why everything is a ^*%$#@ match between the C362 and DF MKII. It's like a Camaro VS Mustang thread.
That's hilarious. It has gone that way a bit despite the original post [chuckling]
Regarding barrel swaps, my PP750 is leaking slowly and is due for a tear down. I wonder if I could swap that pistol barrel onto the original Dragonfly for a weekend just to see what happens in accuracy and power with one and two pumps, which is how this gun is most often used at my home range.
I put a 16" .25 cal barrel on my Storm rider and lost a small amount of power, but more than made up for it with a vastly superior BC. 8-10 MPH breeze made no difference in POI at 25 yards with just a front end rest (still a bit shaky) using H&N FTT .25 cal. It also seemed like I made peak power at a lower regulator setting, but more testing will be required to know for sure. Just waiting on an LDC right now otherwise I would be up in the attic testing today!
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Nice! Keep us posted on the attic test!
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Nice! Keep us posted on the attic test!
I did get up into the attic today and tested even with the loud muzzle report. I was getting 675 FPS average with the 20.06g H&N FTT and 550 FPS with 30.86g H&N Barracuda, so about 20 FPE either way. I was getting a bit more power yesterday while testing with the H&N Crow Mags, but I'm pretty sure I was getting some "reg creep" from air getting around the regulator. With the exception of a bit of lead in the back of the hammer, a Huma plenum sleeve, the Altaros reg, and the obvious .25 cal swap I'm all stock. With the 3" longer barrel and 20 grain .22 cal pellets I was sitting at 27 FPE. With a full length .25 cal barrel I'm confident these guns could be making 30+ FPE in .25 cal. I'm so tempted to get a second .25 cal receiver for my Bandit, but I think long term the Bandit will end up unregulated with the 16" .25 cal barrel and I'll live with a .22 cal Stormrider. Then I'll have a 20+ FPE bandit and a near 30 FPE Stormrider.
Eventually I'll have to get a DF MKII even if just for the longer barrel.
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Any hunches on most accurate pellets with that configuration?
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Any hunches on most accurate pellets with that configuration?
I should really make a new thread, but nobody seems to mind.
I assembled the Bandito .25 long barrel unregulated and tested H&N FTT 20.06 and Hatsan Vortex Strike 24.70 for accuracy. Unfortunately I shot my chronograph before testing the long barrel but I have a 195b down to 90b shot string for the "CO2" spring and the "HPA spring" shooting the FTT's. The short barrel peaked at 547 FPS at 95b with the light spring and 635 FPS at 140b with the heavy spring. I am betting the long barrel will boost those velocities by at least 100 FPS, but I won't find out until my replacement chronograph gets here. With the short barrel and HPA spring the Bandito is averaging 17.5 FPE for six shots. I estimate 20-25 FPE with the long barrel, which is wicked out of a PCP that can fit in my backpack with the LDC and stock removed. Eventually I'd like to figure out a shroud with built in air stripper.
There was a serious 15 MPH wind with even higher gusts that had the trees dancing, so groups were variable. In breaks from the wind I was getting 1/2" ragged hole groups with the H&N FTT and Hatsan VS pellets using a front rest and red dot sight from my crossbow. My testing in the attic at 30' yesterday was with the same barrel and receiver on my regulated Stormrider and the groups were the same size with no fliers. I was impressed with the Hatsan pellets most of all. The groups were tighter even with the wind, but not as flat of a trajectory. This setup might even be good for 50 yard shooting if you can deal with the loopy trajectory. My plan was always to use it at 10-30 yards.
I plan on casting some 34 grain pellets for my Eagle Claw and will try them in the Bandito as well. Ultimately I want to cast those 34 grain pellets in pure tin and see if they are as good as the H&N Barracuda Green 19.91 grain pellets, which is exactly the weight I'm estimating for the NOE pellets cast in tin. They are "minute of vermin" accurate out of my Eagle Claw at 25 yards, I would be happy with that same accuracy at half the FPE out of my Bandito.
Also, I'm glad someone wants to hear about this. I'm pretty stoked at how well my little Bandito has turned out and my wife has zero interest in hearing about it 😂
I really want to make the NOE wadcutters work, but I need a working chrono so I know what speeds they like. I'm betting with the short barrel and CO2 spring I can get the velocity down enough to make them work, or I can try casting them with the shorter mold pins to get them a bit heavier, I've only tried the longest pins.
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I just got another new chrono and am thinking, "At this rate, does buying two at a time makes sense?"
How far down in fps are you thinking to get them working?
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I just got another new chrono and am thinking, "At this rate, does buying two at a time makes sense?"
How far down in fps are you thinking to get them working?
I think the NOE Wadcutters need to be going less than 600 FPS, probably closer to 450-500 FPS to be accurate. I want to try casting with the longer pins and get the weight up to bring velocity down, so I can keep making at least 17 FPE.
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I just got another new chrono and am thinking, "At this rate, does buying two at a time makes sense?"
How far down in fps are you thinking to get them working?
I think the NOE Wadcutters need to be going less than 600 FPS, probably closer to 450-500 FPS to be accurate. I want to try casting with the longer pins and get the weight up to bring velocity down, so I can keep making at least 17 FPE.
My chronograph is dead, but I got the .25 cal NOE wadcutters to give me quarter sized groups. Even with 10+ MPH winds I was able to get acceptable groups. I used pellets cast with the shortest (not flat base) pins and mid length pins, but the heavier pellets were more accurate. Cast weight for the short pins was 24.5 grn and I used the CO2 spring, short barrel, and filled to about 110b to keep the velocity within the "sweet spot" for six shots. I'm waiting on another Altaros regulator and plan on seeing if I can get a higher number of consistent shots per fill. With the CO2 spring I'm making peak power down at 80b or so. Above that you don't even need ear pro. From 200-80b you can get a nice vertical line if you are steady and there's no wind.
550 FPS seems to be about as fast as you can push these wadcutters. Based on my testing with the Crow Mags the WC's should be traveling at 525-ish FPS for about 15 FPE with my fill settings. Even with the lower velocity I look forward to when my LDC and adapters get here and all I will hear is the hammer hitting the valve.
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I just got another new chrono and am thinking, "At this rate, does buying two at a time makes sense?"
How far down in fps are you thinking to get them working?
I think the NOE Wadcutters need to be going less than 600 FPS, probably closer to 450-500 FPS to be accurate. I want to try casting with the longer pins and get the weight up to bring velocity down, so I can keep making at least 17 FPE.
My chronograph is dead, but I got the .25 cal NOE wadcutters to give me quarter sized groups. Even with 10+ MPH winds I was able to get acceptable groups. I used pellets cast with the shortest (not flat base) pins and mid length pins, but the heavier pellets were more accurate. Cast weight for the short pins was 24.5 grn and I used the CO2 spring, short barrel, and filled to about 110b to keep the velocity within the "sweet spot" for six shots. I'm waiting on another Altaros regulator and plan on seeing if I can get a higher number of consistent shots per fill. With the CO2 spring I'm making peak power down at 80b or so. Above that you don't even need ear pro. From 200-80b you can get a nice vertical line if you are steady and there's no wind.
550 FPS seems to be about as fast as you can push these wadcutters. Based on my testing with the Crow Mags the WC's should be traveling at 525-ish FPS for about 15 FPE with my fill settings. Even with the lower velocity I look forward to when my LDC and adapters get here and all I will hear is the hammer hitting the valve.
Glad you got them workiong, I had NO luck at all. >:(
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I just got another new chrono and am thinking, "At this rate, does buying two at a time makes sense?"
How far down in fps are you thinking to get them working?
I think the NOE Wadcutters need to be going less than 600 FPS, probably closer to 450-500 FPS to be accurate. I want to try casting with the longer pins and get the weight up to bring velocity down, so I can keep making at least 17 FPE.
My chronograph is dead, but I got the .25 cal NOE wadcutters to give me quarter sized groups. Even with 10+ MPH winds I was able to get acceptable groups. I used pellets cast with the shortest (not flat base) pins and mid length pins, but the heavier pellets were more accurate. Cast weight for the short pins was 24.5 grn and I used the CO2 spring, short barrel, and filled to about 110b to keep the velocity within the "sweet spot" for six shots. I'm waiting on another Altaros regulator and plan on seeing if I can get a higher number of consistent shots per fill. With the CO2 spring I'm making peak power down at 80b or so. Above that you don't even need ear pro. From 200-80b you can get a nice vertical line if you are steady and there's no wind.
550 FPS seems to be about as fast as you can push these wadcutters. Based on my testing with the Crow Mags the WC's should be traveling at 525-ish FPS for about 15 FPE with my fill settings. Even with the lower velocity I look forward to when my LDC and adapters get here and all I will hear is the hammer hitting the valve.
Glad you got them workiong, I had NO luck at all. >:(
I suspect you were trying them in you DAR which is sending them wayyyy too fast, my Eagle claw was doing the same. I had a hard time keeping them slow enough to be accurate, but fast enough to not have a rainbow arc at 10 yards. Below 400 FPS they just bounced off of my cardboard box packed full of magazines, but I have taped over it many times to keep shooting it.
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Yupper, I stopped at 600 fps since slower meant less energy and short distances. .25 for me is the distance gun. .22 is short to mid range.
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Yupper, I stopped at 600 fps since slower meant less energy and short distances. .25 for me is the distance gun. .22 is short to mid range.
I want all of the .22 and .25 pellet molds, right now I'm up to three out of six. I'm only shooting the Bandito at close range and plinking, and it's pretty quiet without a moderator at the low power needed for those .25 WC's. I have the Stormrider .22 for 25-50 yards and the Eagle Claw .25 for 50+ yards. My .45 does great at 50 yards as well and that's what it is zero'd for right now. I have a feeling the Eagle claw will be more accurate out at 50 yards with slugs than it is at 25 yards. Before my scope problems it was making one ragged hole at 50 yards with NSA slugs.
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I ordered the DF a couple of weeks ago.
At that time the ship date was 5/11/22.
Now I see it has been pushed back to 6/13/22.
PA charged my card when I ordered............
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
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Welcome to the New World Order.... ;)
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What happened to FX Independence?
Is that like a Seneca Aspen?
Sort of. BUT, with a much bigger price tag.
They had problems with the pumps going south. Don't know if they ever got past that, or not.
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What happened to FX Independence?
Is that like a Seneca Aspen?
Sort of. BUT, with a much bigger price tag.
They had problems with the pumps going south. Don't know if they ever got past that, or not.
Looks like they were discontinued and were quite expensive when new.
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I ordered the DF a couple of weeks ago.
At that time the ship date was 5/11/22.
Now I see it has been pushed back to 6/13/22.
PA charged my card when I ordered............
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Hmm...indeed.
Outer_Rondacker said in a thread in the bargain gate that issues in the South China Sea were delaying his order.
He's likely not the only one seeing a delay.
My .177 Disco SE barrel is 2 weeks overdue. I'd presumed Crosman's barrels were made in America; but, I'm starting to wonder....
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I ordered the DF a couple of weeks ago.
At that time the ship date was 5/11/22.
Now I see it has been pushed back to 6/13/22.
PA charged my card when I ordered............
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Hmm...indeed.
Outer_Rondacker said in a thread in the bargain gate that issues in the South China Sea were delaying his order.
He's likely not the only one seeing a delay.
My .177 Disco SE barrel is 2 weeks overdue. I'd presumed Crosman's barrels were made in America; but, I'm starting to wonder....
If I'm not mistaken, O R's comment was in reference to the delivery of a scope that shipped from Texas. I'm really not sure how shipping issues in the South China Sea delayed his order. I bought mine from the same seller and got it in 2 days.
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If I'm not mistaken, O R's comment was in reference to the delivery of a scope that shipped from Texas. I'm really not sure how shipping issues in the South China Sea delayed his order. I bought mine from the same seller and got it in 2 days.
I believe he was talking about what his tracking was saying?
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If I'm not mistaken, O R's comment was in reference to the delivery of a scope that shipped from Texas. I'm really not sure how shipping issues in the South China Sea delayed his order. I bought mine from the same seller and got it in 2 days.
I believe he was talking about what his tracking was saying?
Indeed.
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I honestly thought O R was making a joke with the "South China Sea" comment, I didn't take it literally.
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Indeed.
I guess one of us could ask O_R what he mean't?
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Indeed.
I guess one of us could ask O_R what he mean't?
Quote" Mine has been delayed due to the issues in the south china sea. Yup that is what the tracking is saying."
Pretty obvious what he meant.
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Quote" Mine has been delayed due to the issues in the south china sea. Yup that is what the tracking is saying."
Pretty obvious what he meant.
What's that?
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Quote" Mine has been delayed due to the issues in the south china sea. Yup that is what the tracking is saying."
Pretty obvious what he meant.
What's that?
It's a quote of what he said....
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=199134.msg156323920#msg156323920 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=199134.msg156323920#msg156323920)
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Quote" Mine has been delayed due to the issues in the south china sea. Yup that is what the tracking is saying."
Pretty obvious what he meant.
What's that?
It's a quote of what he said....
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=199134.msg156323920#msg156323920 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=199134.msg156323920#msg156323920)
Right. I was asking you what you think he mean't.
It's not obvious to me.
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Quote" Mine has been delayed due to the issues in the south china sea. Yup that is what the tracking is saying."
Pretty obvious what he meant.
What's that?
It's a quote of what he said....
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=199134.msg156323920#msg156323920 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=199134.msg156323920#msg156323920)
Right. I was asking you what you think he mean't.
It's not obvious to me.
Yeah, I've thought about it both ways. I've never seen official delay response that specific from the shipper.
But then again, I like to take a person at their word. A simple emoji may have helped.
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Quote" Mine has been delayed due to the issues in the south china sea. Yup that is what the tracking is saying."
Pretty obvious what he meant.
What's that?
It's a quote of what he said....
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=199134.msg156323920#msg156323920 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=199134.msg156323920#msg156323920)
Right. I was asking you what you think he mean't.
It's not obvious to me.
Yeah, I've thought about it both ways. I've never seen official delay response that specific from the shipper.
But then again, I like to take a person at their word. A simple emoji may have helped.
I haven't seen a delay response like that from a shipper either.
One thing I do know. Most forums online allow a member to say WHAT happened.
But, members of those forums aren't encouraged to talk about WHY it happened.
Which is a shame because Asian shipping is something that affects everyone. Not just airgunners.
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It's May, are distributors expecting DF MKII's to arrive soon? I'll probably wait on some owner reviews before I decide if I want to order one. Now that I have a YH and a small bottle I care a lot less about this gun.
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Yeah, I've thought about it both ways. I've never seen official delay response that specific from the shipper.
But then again, I like to take a person at their word. A simple emoji may have helped.
Say Bill, could you point out the best Gate to inquire about a certain vendor?
I'm trying to track down why Crosman isn't shipping .177 Disco 24" barrels. Mine is 2 weeks overdue. I looked at PA and they're out of 1377 10" barrels too. So, apparently those aren't being shipped either.
While poking around the web, I came across this barrel vendor:
Crosman .177 caliber 24" barrel
[CR-24Bar177] $32.99
Crosman .177 caliber 24" barrel
Click to enlarge
.177 caliber barrel, 24" in length.
Standard Crosman-sized barrel- can be used on any of the 13xx, 17xx, 22xx guns.
This barrel is was originally intended for use on the Crosman 1760 rifle.
https://scopesandammo.com/storefront/product_info.php/crosman-177-caliber-24-barrel-p-462
Crosman had raised their prices when I ordered the 2 Disco barrels, the prices this vendor is charging aren't much higher. But, are they legit?
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We really don't need this to become another c362 thread. I am legitimately asking if any distributors/vendors have gotten any DF MKII's yet.
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We really don't need this to become another c362 thread. I am legitimately asking if any distributors/vendors have gotten any DF MKII's yet.
Latest guess from PA is 6-13
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[chuckling] Times as they are, hopefully by 4th of July.
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October has been the norm for pre orders on these new release pre sales, before all this BS :-\ Some day my ship will come in, maybe LOL ;D
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I was hoping my wife's bass guitar was on the same boat as the DF's since they had the same arrival date (initially anyway).
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Yeah, I've thought about it both ways. I've never seen official delay response that specific from the shipper.
But then again, I like to take a person at their word. A simple emoji may have helped.
Say Bill, could you point out the best Gate to inquire about a certain vendor?
I'm trying to track down why Crosman isn't shipping .177 Disco 24" barrels. Mine is 2 weeks overdue. I looked at PA and they're out of 1377 10" barrels too. So, apparently those aren't being shipped either.
While poking around the web, I came across this barrel vendor:
Crosman .177 caliber 24" barrel
[CR-24Bar177] $32.99
Crosman .177 caliber 24" barrel
Click to enlarge
.177 caliber barrel, 24" in length.
Standard Crosman-sized barrel- can be used on any of the 13xx, 17xx, 22xx guns.
This barrel is was originally intended for use on the Crosman 1760 rifle.
https://scopesandammo.com/storefront/product_info.php/crosman-177-caliber-24-barrel-p-462
Crosman had raised their prices when I ordered the 2 Disco barrels, the prices this vendor is charging aren't much higher. But, are they legit?
Sorry, I'm not familiar with the site. It appears to be Canadian so there may be shipping snafus.
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I was hoping my wife's bass guitar was on the same boat as the DF's since they had the same arrival date (initially anyway).
What bass did she get?
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I was hoping my wife's bass guitar was on the same boat as the DF's since they had the same arrival date (initially anyway).
What bass did she get?
Jackson Spectra JS3QV five string. She ordered it from Sweetwater (PA for musicians) in early March. It got here a week or two ago.
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Jackson Spectra JS3QV five string. She ordered it from Sweetwater (PA for musicians) in early March. It got here a week or two ago.
Very nice!
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Jackson Spectra JS3QV five string. She ordered it from Sweetwater (PA for musicians) in early March. It got here a week or two ago.
Very nice!
I'm no musician, but it sounds pretty good to me. She got a flanger pedal too and I'm not sad to hear all of our favorite music with the bass turned way up.
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5 string eh? What amp and effects setup is she runnin? High or low tone knob setting?
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5 string eh? What amp and effects setup is she runnin? High or low tone knob setting?
She has a Fender 12" "Rumble" 300w amp which has a built in overdrive, and the flanger is a TC electronics "Thunderstorm". Neither of us are anything close to a sound tech, so the knobs are set to whatever she feels like 😂
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"Interesting... hammer adjustment as a starting point? Never attempted such a tune myself. What might be involved?"
Having done many hours of R&D on "air conserving" pumpers, there's a lot more to it than striker adjustments. You have to increase the valve storage volume a bunch, and fit a damper to the striker (or at least drastically lighten the striker, so it can't bounce enough to reopen the valve, a major waste of air)
I'm back to airguns after taking a few years off, and have a DF mkI on the bench with the idea of seeing if it can be made to operate in AC mode. A 362will go under the knife too. At least, that's the plan.
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I know I digress, but this post actually IS in regard to the Dragonfly II !!!!!!!!!
I see that, after a month of pushing the expected delivery date out to 5/13. PA has now moved it back to 6/27........
As this is an increment of only 2 weeks, MAYBE they are getting close.............
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I know I digress, but this post actually IS in regard to the Dragonfly II !!!!!!!!!
I see that, after a month of pushing the expected delivery date out to 5/13. PA has now moved it back to 6/27........
As this is an increment of only 2 weeks, MAYBE they are getting close.............
Yes, they are close. There have been some domestic transport delays, but they should be arriving soon.
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Thanks Tyler!
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Seems to be in stock now:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=200384.msg156338492#msg156338492 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=200384.msg156338492#msg156338492)
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I better check my PA account ! The new airgun box is coming !
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Does anyone know whether the .177 transfer port of the mkII has the same issues as the mkI?
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Does anyone know whether the .177 transfer port of the mkII has the same issues as the mkI?
It's the same TP that's used in the PP800, CP1, CP2, CR600W, PR900W, DF MKI, and all of the private label versions as well. I have a PP800 and PR900, both have no TP issues. Can you be more specific?
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There have been reports of burrs in the tp where the pellet gets damaged, I have not had that issue with any of my Artemis guns. 6 ??? if my mental count is correct.
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Others have posted about it more extensively. When I get home from work I might dig ip a link.
The pellet gets damaged in the .177 model. I use harder non lead pellets in mine on one or two pumps typically. Some use pointed lead pellets or harder lead pellets. The images and tear down descriptions here on gta boiled down to the gun being designed in 22 then made into a .177 version as well. The design around the transfer port made for a little pellet munching as one port did not line up well with the other in .177.
I love the dragonfly anyway. It's one of my most frequently shot guns as it is quiet, needs only one pump, and has nice ergonomics and old school wood styling. I only shoot it in the basement and not for small groups though. It's my go to indoor plinker. The .22 might be better for hunting and target shooting.
I have not heard of the transfer port issue on any other guns from the same manufacturer. Just the dragonfly and only in .177.
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Others have posted about it more extensively. When I get home from work I might dig ip a link.
The pellet gets damaged in the .177 model. I use harder non lead pellets in mine on one or two pumps typically. Some use pointed lead pellets or harder lead pellets. The images and tear down descriptions here on gta boiled down to the gun being designed in 22 then made into a .177 version as well. The design around the transfer port made for a little pellet munching as one port did not line up well with the other in .177.
I love the dragonfly anyway. It's one of my most frequently shot guns as it is quiet, needs only one pump, and has nice ergonomics and old school wood styling. I only shoot it in the basement and not for small groups though. It's my go to indoor plinker. The .22 might be better for hunting and target shooting.
I have not heard of the transfer port issue on any other guns from the same manufacturer. Just the dragonfly and only in .177.
Oh, you mean as in there is a burr in the barrel port, not the brass transfer port. That's a different fix.
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Here's the detailed thread with photos on page 4 of clipped pellets.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=142139.60 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=142139.60)
What fix do you recommend? (Even if beyond my present capabilities, interested to know!)
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Although 1 pump isn't recommended by the manufacturer, mine does well with daisy lead free wadcutters on 1 pump at 12 yds.
Tested a whole bunch of pellets on various numbers of pumps but concentrated most on 1 and 2 pumps. On 1 the daisy lead free were most accurate and on two pumps the spitzkugels tied the daisies.
Recently I tested the ftt greens and they produce enough power to flip my steel bison gallery reset target at 17 yds on 2 pumps. With the Daisy lead frees, I need 3 pumps to get enough power for that at that distance.
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Here's the detailed thread with photos on page 4 of clipped pellets.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=142139.60 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=142139.60)
What fix do you recommend? (Even if beyond my present capabilities, interested to know!)
It's beyond my ability as well. I think people use a tool, some kind of reamer, to fix that.
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Here is a good basic how to, simple jewelers files can be used in many cases.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130555.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130555.0)
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I'm interested in hearing more about these, as they've been shipped. Mine came yesterday, 6/18/22 and is defective with a terrible pump. It is back in the shipping box, ready to return to P/A. Is everyone else's Dragonfly MKII a dream come true?
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So far just gave mine 1 pump and a dry fire, the pump and linkage is snug, but as I found with the DF1 it will ease up with use. It is defiantly 1/2 the effort of the DF1, and comparable to the Crosman 362 for pumping effort.
I will get outside with it and a crony this afternoon, and put it through the paces.
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OK I think this may be important !
I was about 30 shots into digging this gun, and then the trigger would not trip the sear, I was able to trip it with the gun pointed into a trap, by pushing in the sear behind the trigger in with a small screwdriver, and the gun discharged.
I will pull mine apart and find out what happened in the trigger mix to cause this, later today if I am still sorta sober ;)
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OK I think this may be important !
I was about 30 shots into digging this gun, and then the trigger would not trip the sear, I was able to trip it with the gun pointed into a trap, by pushing in the sear behind the trigger in with a small screwdriver, and the gun discharged.
I will pull mine apart and find out what happened in the trigger mix to cause this, later today if I am still sorta sober ;)
Exact same thing happened to Tom Gaylord for the PA blog.
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Exact same thing happened to Tom Gaylord for the PA blog.
Here it is: https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-eight/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-eight/)
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I thought I heard of this happening before, yeah shot my Prod yesterday and did not look into the trigger will do tonight.
Thanks for the link 8)
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Exact same thing happened to Tom Gaylord for the PA blog.
Here it is: https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-eight/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/03/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-eight/)
I would have HOPED that AV would have corrected this issue by now.............
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Judging from the serial # my gun may have been already made by the time Tom discovered this issue.
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Just wanted to say that I really appreciate you guys testing these waters for alligators before I go swimming... ;) ;D
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There is hardly anything I hate worse than buying something that doesn't work !
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There is hardly anything I hate worse than buying something that doesn't work !
Ditto... especially a Gen 2.
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There needs to be a hole drilled thru the trigger blade at the top in line with that set screw, and the screw turned around
to permit adjustment without disassembly..........
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Had to adjust the set screw on mine also.
Polished everything up while I was in there, it helped some but this gun is a prime candidate for an aftermarket trigger lol.
Also the pins have splined heads and have to be driven out, no need to stake them.
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.177 8.4gr
3 pumps 579 fps
6 pumps 696 fps
9 pumps 747 fps
12 pumps 775 fps
15 pumps 799 fps
SD and ES stayed in single digits so long as pumps were methodical and deliberate.
Accuracy seems reasonable so far, 6 pumps at 25 yds was holding around 1".
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YEAH I was liking the accuracy decided it was scope time, just when I got the scope dialed in no pew pew :-\
Rough day at the office so no tinker energy to do the fix yet.
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There needs to be a hole drilled thru the trigger blade at the top in line with that set screw, and the screw turned around
to permit adjustment without disassembly..........
The cross pin that limits travel is in the way.
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There needs to be a hole drilled thru the trigger blade at the top in line with that set screw, and the screw turned around
to permit adjustment without disassembly..........
The cross pin that limits travel is in the way.
Yeah...I see that now.. maybe come in at an angle and use a ball-nose hex wench ??
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Here is a good basic how to, simple jewelers files can be used in many cases.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130555.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130555.0)
Thanks for the link! Very clear and thorough.
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OK had to dig this thread up, been awhile, can not remember what pellets I was shooting when I scoped the rifle, so will have to start over LOL
Went under the hood of my DF MK2 was a simple leisurely 10 minute job, including running to basement a few times for tools. I only had to remove the gun from the stock, tap out the rear trigger pin, that allowed the trigger to be lifted forward to expose the culprit screw, was able to get it out and add a drop of vibra-tite to the screw and turn it in with about 1/3 of the threads showing on the underside of the trigger cycled the action a few times and was happy with the feel so put it back into the stock and off to do some pumpin n shootin. ;D 8)
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OK had to dig this thread up, been awhile, can not remember what pellets I was shooting when I scoped the rifle, so will have to start over LOL
Went under the hood of my DF MK2 was a simple leisurely 10 minute job, including running to basement a few times for tools. I only had to remove the gun from the stock, tap out the rear trigger pin, that allowed the trigger to be lifted forward to expose the culprit screw, was able to get it out and add a drop of vibra-tite to the screw and turn it in with about 1/3 of the threads showing on the underside of the trigger cycled the action a few times and was happy with the feel so put it back into the stock and off to do some pumpin n shootin. ;D 8)
Here we go! Let us know how it goes!
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(EDIT:This is a shameless cut-n-paste from another message board)
I shot my Dragonfly2 (.22) maybe 100 pellets so far. Open sights got me 1 1/4" groups @20yards with CP Domes(bad eyes). I put a red dot on and got the groups down to an inch, but the next day, I couldn't hit the same targets either! (I too noticed the threaded barrel-end was loose & tightened it-so there might be something going on there.) No trigger issues-so far.
I since have mounted a Hatsan scope and can get groups under an inch @ 20yds with my shakey lawn chair/towel rest.
I started at 8 pumps, but was destroying my backstop-I decreased the pumps to 7-6-5-4-no loss in accuracy until I went down to 3 pumps. This was all at 20yds. I now stop at 4 or 5 pumps. I've never even pumped past 8 since im only shooting in my back yard.
The pump was noisy and stiff initially, buy has smoothed & quieted down 50%.
So far, Im really enjoying shooting this rifle. The magazine works great, but is a little quirky to load. I ordered a different style magazine from Canada off Ebay (same as Diana Stormrider).
My only complaint is that the bolt requires quite a bit of effort to pull back.
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That is a fact, about the muzzle thread protector loosening up from pumping, and it does affect accuracy, I had to tighten it up a couple times, a wrap of teflon tape, or a dab of vibra-tite will solve that. I put a Rocker LDC on and did not have any issues with it working loose yet.
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Here is a good video on the tips I found to getting the most from this system.
https://youtu.be/6rFbG93DwX8
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That is a fact, about the muzzle thread protector loosening up from pumping, and it does affect accuracy, I had to tighten it up a couple times, a wrap of teflon tape, or a dab of vibra-tite will solve that. I put a Rocker LDC on and did not have any issues with it working loose yet.
Yep mine too, POI shifting as it unscrewed changing the barrel harmonics. I put a little oring between the barrel/adapter and the adapter/thread protector. Just enough friction to keep it from unscrewing.
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That is a fact, about the muzzle thread protector loosening up from pumping, and it does affect accuracy, I had to tighten it up a couple times, a wrap of teflon tape, or a dab of vibra-tite will solve that. I put a Rocker LDC on and did not have any issues with it working loose yet.
Yep mine too, POI shifting as it unscrewed changing the barrel harmonics. I put a little oring between the barrel/adapter and the adapter/thread protector. Just enough friction to keep it from unscrewing.
I was thinking the same thing.
Ok, I have to be honest here.
I was very blasy blah on this gun some months ago.
Pre orders are not my thing. Then I did the "15 pumps to get the same power I can get from 8 ?" thing.
I recently filled my niche for gas ram guns with the addition of the Ruger Yukon in .22. Still not ready to go down through the PCP arsenal again, I looked at my pumpers.
Do I have room for another pumper? LOL..I always have room for another pumper... I started this swaray with pumpers. I have many pumpers.
Wanna know what pushed me to put one in the cart this morning?
CARM mags. Yep, strange as it may seem, the fact that I have 2 .177 CARM mags was the deciding factor.
Ok so, that's not the only thing....
I am a bonifide, card carrying fan of SPA guns. IMO they are the new 'lego' guns. And I have several in house to tinker til the cows come home.
But wait, there's more....
Tim Allen must have been an air gunner. Remember? He's the guy that coined the phrase "more power".
Many air gunners in this, and other, forums seem to have the same juices running through them... been there, done that, got the tanks and compressors to proove it.
Bill, where are you going with all this dribble?...
One question comes to mind...
How many of you pumper fans pump the max strokes per shot? I certainly don't...
In a .22 I may put 6. In a .177 it's 4 or 5 to achive satisfaction at my disired range.
Hence a .177...
I'm thinking 7 easy peasy strokes and a 10.5 pellet should hit the 35 to 40yd mark pretty accurately and consistently.
Besides... Betty Lou said yes, you can have one.... ;)
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Come clean, Billy Boy. The ONLY reason you got one, was Betty Lou said you could.
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Come clean, Billy Boy. The ONLY reason you got one, was Betty Lou said you could.
She's gonna claim/keep it anyways. Just go ahead and buy two now so you have one to shoot.
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The only time I pump for full power is for testing after repairs, or just before selling a rifle. On all my Sheridans , I use 3 pumps for plinking, 5 for small game , & up to 8 , the maximum , for larger game or longer distance shooting.
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Ha Ha. you guys are probably right.
No, she wants a new kitchen pan set.
Heck, that's a win win for me.
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SWMBO has been eying that Gotham hammered copper cookware set, I may just get that for her since she is not that all into airguns ;)
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Betty Lou opted for the Granite Stone 20 piece set. We ordered it.
She's already had bits and pieces of the copper set.
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(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8637)
45 yards H&N 21 gr. .218 slugs DF MK2 :o 8)
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=8636)
Not my best day shooting but casual let the lead fly day :D ;)
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Tracking shows mine in .177 to arrive Wednesday.
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Tracking shows mine in .177 to arrive Wednesday.
Waiting on your results, I bet in .177 it will be a nice flat shooter.
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Tracking shows mine in .177 to arrive Wednesday.
Waiting on your results, I bet in .177 it will be a nice flat shooter.
How many pumps for the 45yd slugs?
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Tracking shows mine in .177 to arrive Wednesday.
Waiting on your results, I bet in .177 it will be a nice flat shooter.
How many pumps for the 45yd slugs?
Sorry, I don't plan to shoot 45yd slugs.
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Tracking shows mine in .177 to arrive Wednesday.
Waiting on your results, I bet in .177 it will be a nice flat shooter.
How many pumps for the 45yd slugs?
Sorry, I don't plan to shoot 45yd slugs.
Sorry, that was directed towards Back_Roads squirrel target above.
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Tracking shows mine in .177 to arrive Wednesday.
Waiting on your results, I bet in .177 it will be a nice flat shooter.
How many pumps for the 45yd slugs?
Sorry, I don't plan to shoot 45yd slugs.
Sorry, that was directed towards Back_Roads squirrel target above.
Full 15 pumps reason I got tired of shooting in the heat that day :) Typical 14 - 18 gr pellets I only go to 12 ish, Have not done any low pump plinking as of yet.
Or have I done any crony test, just shooting by the seat of my pants.
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Tracking says still on track for tomorrow delivery.
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Suspense !
Got home from work and dug up that set of scope mounts I got from pay it forward, have to replace the rings on the Monstrom 2-7 FFP scope I mounted on it and discovered a stripped nut on one of the mounts, so last weekends shooting may have been skewed with loose mounting.
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Nice...
I just looked and have a Hawke Vantage 2-7X32 AO to put on mine.
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One of the nicest e-mails to receive... "Out For Delivery".
My work place is typically the FedEx/UPS stop just before our house.
Many times I spot the delivery truck when I'm out taking a smoke break and intercept the delivery.
Other times I miss the truck and it travels on to our home where Betty Lou meets it at the gate in wet weather.
Other times they just put the package inside the gate. Boss and Rambo alert Betty Lou that the package has arrived.
Both UPS and FedEx drivers always have a treat for the dogs. However, that does not give them a pass to open the gate.
Both dogs will likely be offended and act accordingly. They love Betty Lou and will defend her with their lives.
Most deliveries come before my lunch break and I get to open them before returning to work.
Update forthcoming.... ;)
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Maybe Rambo knows something I don't know.....
FedEx pulled up to the gate and set the box inside the gate.
Betty Lou headed out to retrieve it. Rambo got there first, sniffed the box and hiked his leg... :o >:(
Betty Lou yelled at him and got this.... ::) look.
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Hello team!
Just placed an order for Dragonfly MK2;
After looking at scope options for this rifle my head is spinning now... I am a complete newbie...
My budget is up to $200;
I just need to shoot accurately at 20-25 yards the most (spotted few rats back in my backyard- so, clean headshots would be perfect);
Any advice is highly appreciated
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This will get you shooting good ;)
https://www.amazon.com/WestHunter-Riflescope-Tactical-Precision-Picatinny/dp/B095PFSN1L/ref=sr_1_40? (https://www.amazon.com/WestHunter-Riflescope-Tactical-Precision-Picatinny/dp/B095PFSN1L/ref=sr_1_40?)
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guitarmint: I have Leapers UTG 3-9x32 Bugbuster (newest generation) on my MK2 and 2018 version on my original Dragonfly. I needed a cantilevered mount on both rifles to get the scope rearward enough. The current generation Bugbuster's reticle is considerably thinner than the older one, which I think is a nice improvement.
Your $200 budget for scope & mount/rings should give you plenty of choices.
So, did you already get a scope? If so, which?
Scott
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I just got mine in today, a .22 and notice that the last 3 inches of travel when full extending the pump arm is really, really stiff. The rest of the travel is like next to nothing at all. Wondering if it just needs broken in or if this something more serious. Anyone else experience that?
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It will smooth out in short time, also you do not have to fully close the pump handle for each pump, as it is at full cycle when it comes to a stop while closing.
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It will smooth out in short time, also you do not have to fully close the pump handle for each pump, as it is at full cycle when it comes to a stop while closing.
[/quote
Thanks! I really hope it does because it feels like the linkage is binding badly. I am at work right now so can not mess with it much but will give a good cleaning and more thorough inspection to make sure everything is straight and lubricated.
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When Im pumping my gun up, it goes "clack! clack!" One of the 3 linkage holes(where the 3 are pinned together) is elongated, or slotted. I think this is causing the sound. There is alot of play there if I wiggle that linkage. Anyone else's gun pump like that?
My pumping was stiff at first. I put silicone oil at the pivot points & pump tube- BIG MISTAKE! The pump locked up & wouldn't close without a ton of force. I had to disassemble & clean it off. That silicone oil is only for o-rings. Re-oiled- All I had was Mobil1 10w40, and Im happy I used it. The gun pumps soo smoothly now. The clack-clack is the only sound now.
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I haven't spent alot of time with the gun. It is still in break in mode. It is getting a little easier but it still has a ways to go before I'm happy with it.
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Mine arrives tomorrow from FedEx. Can’t wait to join you guys!!
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I ordered all 3 versions of the UTG BugBuster that was available on Amazon to try out. Both reviews I saw from Hard Air Magazine and PyramydAir mentioned this line of scopes so I figured it’s a good place to start. Both reviewers pointed out that this is a shorter scope that allows you to hold the grip normally while pumping.
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I'm a pumper fan So I just had to have one. It's a .177.
Pumping: The force is lighter but the stroke is longer - personally wish it was shorter. Ten pumps is good, the gain going to fifteen is not worth it to me.
Rear sight adjustment is different. I have adjusted the rear sights on Crosman 39X easily, not with this one.
The trigger is easily adjusted to 2 pounds easily. It loads pellets from the magazine (including wadcutters) reliably.
Last but not least it's a one hole at ten meters with the right pellet.
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Update on mine. It was locking up so hard on the last couple of inches that it felt like I was going to break something. I called Pyramyd Air to ask about it. Tech Support was not available (were on the phone with others, and this right before they closed) but the CS rep suggested oiling it with silicone oil and giving it 50-100 pumps to break in as they have had some reports of 'stickiness' in the first 50 or so pumps.
I took it home, oiled it and worked on 10 pump shots that evening. It quit shooting at all after about the 10ths shot. The final engagement did get a bit better but at the expense of harder stroke throughout the travel. It felt like a sticky 30lb break barrel.
I got a callback from PA this afternoon to see if it worked out Ok. Talk about service man! So after relaying what took place, they sent me prepaid return label and are sending me a new on with a free 10 shot test to make sure the replacement is good. I have always been impressed with the customer service from those guys at PA.
Every company has a lemon here and there, none are perfect. Most seem happy with the Dragonfly 2 and I believe this is just a rarity. They specifically told me they flagged my return to send to R&D to find out what went wrong. I like a proactive company that truly wants to make a better product. So I have to wait a couple of weeks for the replacement but it's not like I don't have others to shoot.
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Got the Mk 1 for a while an though it requires a bit of effort to pump it over 4 strokes, I never felt it unbearable. Ok my left elbow aches after a few shots but, anyway, there are quite many other parts of my old body that aches when working out (over 70, now ;D).
More important, it's still as accurate as when I bought it a few years ago and, with a bit of tinkering, it has a really pleasant trigger.
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Got the Mk 1 for a while an though it requires a bit of effort to pump it over 4 strokes, I never felt it unbearable. Ok my left elbow aches after a few shots but, anyway, there are quite many other parts of my old body that aches when working out (over 70, now ;D).
More important, it's still as accurate as when I bought it a few years ago and, with a bit of tinkering, it has a really pleasant trigger.
I like the trigger on my mk1 as well. It has broken in nicely.
I only pump one or two times. One for daisy led free wadcutters, twice for ftt greens. Both pellets are good for plinking accurately at 17 yds.
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I haven't spent alot of time with the gun. It is still in break in mode. It is getting a little easier but it still has a ways to go before I'm happy with it.
I suggest you pump your buttocks as well while you pump the gun, Bill sir ;D
Might make R and B howl, lol!
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I really want this gun in .25.
What is the barrel OD? How difficult would it be to use a NPXL barrel on this to make a .25?
Also, is the dovetail under the rear sight base 3/8-11mm? I’d like to play with putting a red dot there.
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I really want this gun in .25.
What is the barrel OD? How difficult would it be to use a NPXL barrel on this to make a .25?
Also, is the dovetail under the rear sight base 3/8-11mm? I’d like to play with putting a red dot there.
Talk to Wes at Airgun Archery Fun, he makes .25 cal Stormriders and Bandits, which is the same platform as the DF II.
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Does anyone have an idea of how much power it can make if the ports are opened up?
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In .25 I got 37fpe at 15 pumps with 34gr JSB.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=204542.new#new (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=204542.new#new)
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The main thing to do with these to make a big increase in velocity is to put in a weaker hammer spring or chop some coils off the stock one. On that .25 cal conversion I did, I swapped the hammer spring in there for a diana stormrider hammer spring and that jumped the velocity way up! The hammer spring it comes with is so strong and these guns are designed with a short valve stem so that hammer wacks the stem and the back of the valve and it closes super quick so hardly any air gets to the barrel then it opens up again because the pressure in the valve is low enough and the hammer spring strong enough that it cracks the valve open after the shot and lets the rest of the air out of the valve. If you cut 3/8 or so off the stock spring you'll get a big jump in velocity. But start with a couple coils then cut a half coil at a time til you stop seeing gains. You don't want to cut too much off the spring or you'll retain air and will have to dry fire it after every shot to get it empty again.
A good preventative to this is if you plan to use it with 15 pumps do your testing cutting the spring with 16 pumps. Then if you stop making gains at 16 after cutting a half coil you'll not be underpowered at 15 pumps and not get air left over after the shot.
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So Wes, why do you suppose the the RnD guys and manufacturers didn't do this in the first place?
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I am out of 25 cal pellet probes at the moment but I'll have a bunch in a week or so. I'll put up a .25 cal Dragonfly option on my website once I get the parts.
Regards,
Wes
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I think they wanted to make sure it didn't retain air. Because if someone didn't realize they could eventually valve lock the gun. But they overdid it and killed the power, so I'm not sure why they did that. They could prevented that by just making the valve stem a bit longer and making the spring a tad lighter so it was still strong enough to drain any air after the shot but the stem was long enough to ensure the valve would stay open long enough to get the most power possible.
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Good info, I haven't done anything to my MK2 yet. I'll give this a try when I do.
Altho, I typically only shoot it at 5 pumps.
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Would you recommend cutting 3/8 of coils off the hammer spring for shooting at lower number of pumps (say 5)?
Or is the 3/8 off the hammer spring for 15 pump shooting specifcally?
I have an mkI. I used to shoot 1 or 2 pumps with lead free, but recently have been doing 4 to 6 pumps with lead after deburring the transfer port.
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Why not just drill out the plug that holds the hammer spring & hammer in the gun? Drill it, tap it to M8x1.25, install a 20mm bolt in the hole, and then you could pre-load the spring w/more less tension. Dont the PCP guns all do this?
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Why not just drill out the plug that holds the hammer spring & hammer in the gun? Drill it, tap it to M8x1.25, install a 20mm bolt in the hole, and then you could pre-load the spring w/more less tension. Dont the PCP guns all do this?
There's a bolt that goes through that cap holding the upper receiver to the air tube
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I will have to take a look for sure, but the same style adjuster that Shorty made for the AEA Challenger may work on a DF with a bit of a design tweak.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=201473.msg156352809#msg156352809 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=201473.msg156352809#msg156352809)
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=201473.0;attach=409580;image)
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Why not just drill out the plug that holds the hammer spring & hammer in the gun? Drill it, tap it to M8x1.25, install a 20mm bolt in the hole, and then you could pre-load the spring w/more less tension. Dont the PCP guns all do this?
There's a bolt that goes through that cap holding the upper receiver to the air tube
You're right. Maybe use 2 small screws from both sides to secure the cap & ditch the thru-bolt?
I watched a youtube video where a guy ported the hi-pressure valve body w/carbide grinder on a Crosman pumper & got my head spinning...
Where can I get spare parts for the Dragonfly2?
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Why not just drill out the plug that holds the hammer spring & hammer in the gun? Drill it, tap it to M8x1.25, install a 20mm bolt in the hole, and then you could pre-load the spring w/more less tension. Dont the PCP guns all do this?
There's a bolt that goes through that cap holding the upper receiver to the air tube
You're right. Maybe use 2 small screws from both sides to secure the cap & ditch the thru-bolt?
I watched a youtube video where a guy ported the hi-pressure valve body w/carbide grinder on a Crosman pumper & got my head spinning...
Where can I get spare parts for the Dragonfly2?
Best bet is www.airgunarcheryfun.ca (http://www.airgunarcheryfun.ca) Wes has many goodies for the SPA guns, and is always getting new inventory is something is OS send them an Email, and he will let you know for sure ASAP.
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You'd need to put a small bolt in top of the tube to secure the breech, then grind a bit of that back cap out to allow room for the screw head and then tap the bottom of the back cap for a screw to secure the cap. Then you could put a power adjuster in . The spring guide has to be narrow to fit inside the hammer because the hammer goes almost all the way back. Otherwise that other solution might have worked with the offset screw.
I do have quite a few compatible parts for the Dragonfly, stuff that is the same as the stormrider.
Regards,
Wes
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I tried the spring swap today on my .22 cal Dragonfly, but had disappointing results. Mine is a Cdn version DF, and it was shooting 480-490 fps on 10 pumps with the original spring. I got a Stormrider hammer spring and installed it, but the fps actually dropped, to around 410-430.
I decided then to go the opposite direction, and cut a small piece of delrin rod, maybe 3.5mm thick and inserted it into the back of the hammer, reinstalled the orginal DF spring. FPS went back up to the original 480-490 fps. Removed the delrin chunk and fps remained the same, which kinda suggests that the original set up is optimal for this gun. Really disappointing as I really wanted to boost the power in this gun. Any suggestions?
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Interesting! Is that a 495fps version of the gun? I didn't know they made the low power version for Canada but if it is, then you're not going to improve the velocity with the spring only. If you happen to have your Firearms license then powering it up will involve dealing with the tiny port holes in the detuned version.
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I got the gun a month or so ago and never put it across the chrony till today. It was advertised as a 800fps DF2, so I will be going back to the dealer on it I think.
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I've heard that some Canadian guns have their power reduced by using a smaller transfer port. Wouldn't hurt to check yours if you don't want the hassle of returning it.
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If it's advertised at full power then it would not have the transfer port restricted. I wasn't aware of a low power version. If you happened to buy it from me, please call 306-263-3350 or email support@airgunarcheryfun and we can sort it out. Might be a leaking piston seal or something.
Regards,
Wes
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Thanks Wes, I bought it from D&L. I think I just need to put more lead through it, and consistently pump to 15 strokes. I see Tom (BB Pelletier) found that they take a fair amount of break-in to achieve full power. We shall see. I may have been optimistic too, hoping to achieve full power on 10 strokes.
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JayDee: I've had my Dragonfly. 22 cal since early this past Summer. I shoot targets out to 25 yards with 6 pumps, and 8 pumps out to 40 yards. There seems to be very little benefit to pumping up to15. I don't do any hunting, so my results are just for targets and plinking. Enjoy your new Dragonfly and enjoy its phenomenal accuracy. Orv.
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Hey guys
I have a rattle inside the pressure tube, I can hear it when I point the muzzle up or down,
it was driving me crazy, WHY, WHAT is it, some more stuff loose etc etc?
Seeing that I am house bound due to bad weather outside, out come the tools,
clean Old bed sheet spread on the work table, a hot cup of Jo at the side and
I started tearing apart the pump end of the DF II.
The 2 tiny Allen head screws are a bear to get loose, (have to replace them now),
unscrewed the muzzle nut and the front sight slide off the bbl.
Removed the Jesus "C" clip, then removed the pivot rod, then removed the center double
headed Allen screw pin, Careful, there is 1 flat spring washer on each end, pulled out the pin.
This allowed the center pump rod to move toward the muzzle end and then drift out the pin
that connects to the center pump rod, (top hole). Pushed the center pump rod out of the
pressure tube and out fell a pin (same size as the center pump rod pin), MY rattle stopped.
It appears that this pin was dropped inside the pressure tube when being assembled,
and just left there.......... ::) :o
The center pump rod is a solid alum rod with a slot cut down thru the center,
approximately 7" long, and is threaded and lock nutted into the end,
for the alum pump head, which has "O" ring set into the pump head, for sealing etc..
I marked and measured the depth of this pump rod, which was 6-5/8" long,
before I tore into it.
I measured the depth to the face of the valve and had a measurement of over 7-1/4",
there is over 1" inch of compression tube not being used. (Loss of fps/fpe)?
My DF II chrono at 640 fps with Crosman 22 HP ammo in the before test.
The front of the pump rod/pressure head just clears the air hole in the pressure tube
when pumping, as can be seen when opening the pump arm when the rifle is upside down.
So being curious, I undid the lock nut, use a HD nylon webbing strap around the pump head
and lengthened it 1 full turn and inserted it into the pressure tube, to the mark I made before
I dismantled it, no contact was made with the valve head, I pushed the pump rod as far
down the pressure tube and had over 7/8" of extra room before contact with the valve.
I tighten everything back down and reassembled it, but not before fixing the sloppy wooden pump handle to the pump handle steel bar. I cut some flat strips of harden plastic into .500" wide x 5-1/2" long and .025" thick.
I checked on which side had the largest gap and stuffed a strip on each side,
checked and then added a .010" thick strip to the side that still had a gap.
I used a drill bit that fit the steel handle bar hole and reamed the plastic hole to fit.
Tightened up the pump arm screws and "What a difference", nice and tight
and the wooden pump arm is centered down the pressure tube and matches the butt stock width etc.
I'll go stand in the corner, as I did NOT take any photo's, sorry guys.
BUT I am not thru yet, after I do a chrono test (same as before chrono test),
I'll strip it down again and do a proper evaluation of everything, along with photo's etc.
I want to see if I can bring the fps up some more before I get to the valve work............... ;)
I hate wasting the 1" of compression space, the pump head is not using.
Edit/updated info: Here is a new diagram of the Dragon Fly II rifle,
https://www.pyramydair.com/model-schematic/m/seneca-dragonfly-mk2-multi-pump-air-rifle/5170 (https://www.pyramydair.com/model-schematic/m/seneca-dragonfly-mk2-multi-pump-air-rifle/5170)
"WATCH THE PRICES" OUCH............ ::)
Your thoughts and suggestions...........
Tia,
Don
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Wow, it's amazing that it makes as much power as it does with that much dead head space.
How far past the slot opening does the face of the piston seal come? Would and adjustable piston take care of the headspace issue, or does it need more stroke?
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Edit/updated info: Here is a new diagram of the Dragon Fly II rifle,
https://www.pyramydair.com/model-schematic/m/seneca-dragonfly-mk2-multi-pump-air-rifle/5170 (https://www.pyramydair.com/model-schematic/m/seneca-dragonfly-mk2-multi-pump-air-rifle/5170)
"WATCH THE PRICES" OUCH............ ::)
Finally, a legible schematic for this gun... Thanks for the link
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2K1TJ
Thanks,
The limiting factor at this time is the amount of distance between the end of the pump face
and the air intake hole of the pressure tube.
On my rifle, I only have approximately .130" of space left before the pump head blocks
the air intake hole.
I have already lengthened this distance by 1 full turn, (still have to do a chrono test),
but I don't know the thread count to figure out this amount of movement.
I will take it out to the maximum distance and do another chrono test to see the results.
The only other option is to redesign the valve, make it longer to use up the excess empty
space of the pressure tube to the pump head at it's extended length etc.
I'll do some careful measurements of the valve dimensions, when I get to the valve out.
At this time it appears that there is only the 1-2 screws holding the valve in place,
which are the ones in the steel block right in front of the trigger.
I won't know for sure until I get to that area etc.
Your thoughts and suggestions are welcome.
Tia,
Don
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2K1TJ
Thanks,
The limiting factor at this time is the amount of distance between the end of the pump face
and the air intake hole of the pressure tube.
On my rifle, I only have approximately .130" of space left before the pump head blocks
the air intake hole.
I have already lengthened this distance by 1 full turn, (still have to do a chrono test),
but I don't know the thread count to figure out this amount of movement.
I will take it out to the maximum distance and do another chrono test to see the results.
The only other option is to redesign the valve, make it longer to use up the excess empty
space of the pressure tube to the pump head at it's extended length etc.
I'll do some careful measurements of the valve dimensions, when I get to the valve out.
At this time it appears that there is only the 1-2 screws holding the valve in place,
which are the ones in the steel block right in front of the trigger.
I won't know for sure until I get to that area etc.
Your thoughts and suggestions are welcome.
Tia,
Don
The valve should be very similar to a Stormrider valve, and according to the schematic the valve head is the only difference. It's threaded to the body, which like you said is pinned with the two screws on the steel block, one through just the block and the other through the trigger guard and block. If you have a lathe I'm sure you could make the valve head longer, or maybe a longer piston would be better? I don't know much about tuning PCPs, and even less about MSP.
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Here is another post on the DF II
Bbl TP hole is .134" Dia,
Action TP Hole is .134" Dia,
Brass TP has a hole Dia of .136" x .295" tall x .356" dia,
w/a step on each end that fits into a rubber "O" ring on the action and the valve,
Hammer spring is 18/19#'s at max compression, (coil bound), 3.150" long,
.390" dia O/S dim, x .300" I/S dim, with 15 coils.
Hammer weight is 876 grains x .760" dia
Main valve is 2.520" long x .765" dia, and has a TP hole of .136" with an inside spring with
a plastic pointed cone and a 2 piece shaft, metal shaft fits inside the poppet seal.
See photos, I hope.
Sorry guys, it just not going to happen,
Tia,
Don
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All good info... thanks Don.
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Thanks Bill
The photo's would have helped and shown more,
but I can't get the photo's from my phone to here.
There has to be a easier way to get photo's posted here...................... >:( :(
Don
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Here is another post on the DF II
Bbl TP hole is .134" Dia,
Action TP Hole is .134" Dia,
Brass TP has a hole Dia of .136" x .295" tall x .356" dia,
w/a step on each end that fits into a rubber "O" ring on the action and the valve,
Hammer spring is 18/19#'s at max compression, (coil bound), 3.150" long,
.390" dia O/S dim, x .300" I/S dim, with 15 coils.
Hammer weight is 876 grains x .760" dia
Main valve is 2.520" long x .765" dia, and has a TP hole of .136" with an inside spring with
a plastic pointed cone and a 2 piece shaft, metal shaft fits inside the poppet seal.
See photos, I hope.
Tia,
Don
(https://i.ibb.co/tKbH03g/20230326-103458.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tKbH03g) (https://i.ibb.co/8b8nZD7/20230326-103510.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8b8nZD7) (https://i.ibb.co/34b2Chc/20230326-103530.jpg) (https://ibb.co/34b2Chc) (https://i.ibb.co/LQwJLMc/20230326-103551.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LQwJLMc)
I don't know what I did but here are the photo's, almost 3 hours later.
Tia,
Don
-
I almost forgot this bit of valve information,
To get the valve out, it has to come out the front of the pressure tube,
there is 2 crimp marks the valve seats against at the rear end of the valve,
that block the valve from coming out the rear end of the pressure tube..
Tia,
Don
-
Here is the chrono results after going thru the Dragon Fly II rifle,
and lengthening the pump head 1 complete turn,
use the same can of ammo and 5 pumps groups and 10 pumps groups,
same as the first OEM test, have less than 100 pellets thru this rifle.
I just got thru running a chrono test (OEM STOCK RIFLE) on my new Dragon Fly II (Refub),
and got these results, with my Chinese chrono:
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 546 fps for Crosman HP,
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 640 fps for the same above ammo.
This chrono test is with the pump head lengthened 1 full turn from the OEM setting,
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 556 fps for the Crosman HP,
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 668 fps for the same ammo.
Note,
I shot these groups into my catch pipe, so I could recover the pellets with no damage,
I believe that this bbl is on the large bore size,
in that I found very little/faint rifling marks on the skirts and very slight marks on the head.
I'll have to run some bumped head (larger diameters) pellets and redo this test.
Tia,
Don
-
Maybe your testing will push some aftermarket mfgs to make some hot valves and pistons for this platform.
-
That's a significant gain. If you're still after more power/efficiency, I would lengthen the piston as much as possible up to the .130 distance you mentioned earlier.
Also, the .134-.136 porting is likely restricting you as well. Similar pumpers benefit from porting 75-80% of caliber. I'd suggest 11/64 or so.
-
DJ
Inside the wooden pump arm, center leg of the pump arm, there is a milled quarter moon cam,
the end of that cam arm has a roller that operates inside this cam, to assist with the pumping.
Mine looked pretty rough, not smooth cut in the machining.
After doing a double check on the length measurements, I'll lengthen to the safe length on the pump head,
and I'll get all the measurements of the valve, spring etc. And I'll do another chrono test for the results.
2K1TJ
I can only goes as far as the air inlet hole, so the pump head can draw air into the pressure tube,
that will be the limiting factor, regardless how much room is available for the overall length.
I know for sure that the Dan's air passage holes are .146" for the bbl and .184" for the valve,
with a valve length of 2.875" and inside dia of .500", air inlet hole of the valve head is .085".
Thanks Guys
Your thoughts and suggestions....
Don
-
Great stuff, Don! Thanks for posting all this!
Have you done anything with the transfer port or hammer spring? Forgive me if I read you did or didn't already and forgot with all the info I just took in.
-
SB
I have not touched transfer port/holes or the hammer spring, YET.........LOL
I'll open up the TP and all other holes to .140 as a standard dimensions to start with,
then go from there.
I hope, I can open up the inside of the hammer spring tunnel, I need .410" I/S dia to work,
I want to use my Flat wire spring, very soft and easy bolt operating, but have all the power
needed to work perfectly, with NO heavy/hard bolt pull.
A 18# FW spring 6" long, goes coil bound in 1.030", then I add a SSG for tuning.
I have lots of small steps to check out to see which will be the best options.
Your thoughts and suggestions.............
Tia,
Don
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Even the softer spring used in CO2 variants is a known bolt handle breaker. I can imagine DF MKII spring must be a tough one to cock since it's stiffer then the HPA spring! I broke several bolt handles before finding this listing for upgraded handles.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294824411242?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=nDiEtpX1TO-&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=coq08-wmSMS&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY (https://www.ebay.com/itm/294824411242?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=nDiEtpX1TO-&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=coq08-wmSMS&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY)
So far so good and the extra leverage is much appreciated. I got the brass ball and steel drum, but wish I had gotten the steel ball instead.
-
Even the softer spring used in CO2 variants is a known bolt handle breaker. I can imagine DF MKII spring must be a tough one to cock since it's stiffer then the HPA spring! I broke several bolt handles before finding this listing for upgraded handles.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294824411242?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=nDiEtpX1TO-&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=coq08-wmSMS&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY (https://www.ebay.com/itm/294824411242?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=nDiEtpX1TO-&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=coq08-wmSMS&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY)
So far so good and the extra leverage is much appreciated. I got the brass ball and steel drum, but wish I had gotten the steel ball instead.
I got the steel ball. These are much longer , and seem to lever the hammer against the tube more. I liked the stock bolt better. I tried a softer hammer spring(too soft) and wasnt getting a full purge when firing-even had a weak follow-up shot.
I polished the hammer & coated w/moly grease, and it definitely pulls back smoother now. Still way too stiff imo.
-
I do like the bolt handle on the DF II rifle, when they are available,
I'll get a couple for my Storm Rider rifles to change out.
I got a bolt handle that will NOT stay tight............. :o Even with the Blue LT,
I think the threads are shot...........
Tia,
Don
-
Frank
On my DF II, when I pull the bolt back, it feels like it comes up against something and stops,
I have try a second time and really snap back the bolt, to it cocked etc.
I am grounded today, so will tear it apart again and check and polish all the contact points
to see if that makes a difference.
I measure and then bore the inside of the spring tunnel out .010" to .015" in dia,
for the Flat Wire springs and look to see if I can install a SSG for tuning etc.
Then I'll find out what size pellets it likes, I hope.
Once I get all the little bugs worked out, to suit me, ;)
I think, I'll have a good shooter for the E bike rifle, then look out sage bunnies............LOL
Tia,
Don
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Guys
If you are going to remove the muzzle/bbl band off the front of the pressure tube,
to work on your DF II rifle, be sure to GET a couple of M3/0.50 pitch bevel headed screws,
as the OEM are BUTTER SOFT and the seem to be put is with a power tool. ::)
I got 4 extra setting here now.............LOL
Don
-
Hey guys
Here is the next step I did today on the DF II, 22 cal.
I tore it down and removed the OEM hammer/spring,
did some careful measuring of the hammer spring tunnel,
I had to open it up to .420" I/S diameter, I only removed .020" of material,
the hammer was not harden and cut very easy with Carbide tooling.
After boring the spring tunnel out, I polished the inside and also polished
the inside of the pressure tube, where the hammer was operating in,
that had lots of burrs and very rough etc.
Cleaned everything up added some lube and reinstalled the hammer
and a 5" long, 11# Flat wire spring, had to make a new spring guide also.
(OEM Hammer spring is 18/19#'s at max compression, (coil bound), 3.150" long,
.390" dia O/S dim, x .300" I/S dim, with 15 coils.)
I did a my usual 5 shot/5 pump chrono test and was very surprised,
here is the test results, a running total,
1. OEM stock
2. Pump head lengthened 1 full turn,
3. Open hammer spring tunnel added a 11# Flat wire spring.
I just got thru running a chrono test (OEM STOCK RIFLE) on my new Dragon Fly II (Refub),
and got these results, with my Chinese chrono:
1. Chrono test
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 546 fps for Crosman HP,
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 640 fps for the same above ammo.
This chrono test is with the pump head lengthened 1 full turn from the OEM setting,
2. Chrono Test
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 556 fps for the Crosman HP,
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 668 fps for the same ammo.
This chrono test was with the hammer spring tunnel opened to .420",
and with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, same ammo as above,
3. Chrono test
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 631 fps for the Crosman HP pellets
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 684fps for the same ammo.
I am double checking everything to makes sure I did not make any mistakes.
Your thoughts and suggestions...............
Tia,
Don
-
Hey guys
Here is the next step I did today on the DF II, 22 cal.
I tore it down and removed the OEM hammer/spring,
did some careful measuring of the hammer spring tunnel,
I had to open it up to .420" I/S diameter, I only removed .020" of material,
the hammer was not harden and cut very easy with Carbide tooling.
After boring the spring tunnel out, I polished the inside and also polished
the inside of the pressure tube, where the hammer was operating in,
that had lots of burrs and very rough etc.
Cleaned everything up added some lube and reinstalled the hammer
and a 5" long, 11# Flat wire spring, had to make a new spring guide also.
(OEM Hammer spring is 18/19#'s at max compression, (coil bound), 3.150" long,
.390" dia O/S dim, x .300" I/S dim, with 15 coils.)
I did a my usual 5 shot/5 pump chrono test and was very surprised,
here is the test results, a running total,
1. OEM stock
2. Pump head lengthened 1 full turn,
3. Open hammer spring tunnel added a 11# Flat wire spring.
I just got thru running a chrono test (OEM STOCK RIFLE) on my new Dragon Fly II (Refub),
and got these results, with my Chinese chrono:
1. Chrono test
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 546 fps for Crosman HP,
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 640 fps for the same above ammo.
This chrono test is with the pump head lengthened 1 full turn from the OEM setting,
2. Chrono Test
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 556 fps for the Crosman HP,
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 668 fps for the same ammo.
This chrono test was with the hammer spring tunnel opened to .420",
and with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, same ammo as above,
3. Chrono test
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 631 fps for the Crosman HP pellets
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 684fps for the same ammo.
I am double checking everything to makes sure I did not make any mistakes.
Your thoughts and suggestions...............
Tia,
Don
Can you run a test with the OEM hammer spring to determine how much of the improvement was the polishing vs the different spring? Where did you get the spring? It sounds like it's way easier to cock AND makes more power!
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DJ
I have been using Flat Wire springs for several years now,
these spring have all the power needed and fit into a very compact space,
a 5" long spring will go coil bound in 1.030" of length. And they are very easy to cock
the bolt, if you go slightly too short when testing, a couple of flat washers bring the power
back, or make a Alum spacer.
These springs come in a multitude of power ratings and sizes,
and almost all of them are less than .420" O/S diameter and have a .250" I/S bore hole
so they can be used with a SSG, when needed. I contact the seller and find out the spec's
on these springs.
When using these FW Springs, use/test at full length, then if required, click off 1/4' to 1/2"
and retry, until the power and ease of cocking fit what you need.
Here is the 11# spring, I am using now,
https://www.ebay.com/itm/292643337337? (https://www.ebay.com/itm/292643337337?)
There is a bunch here,
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=Flat+wire+recoil+springs&_sacat=0&_sop=15 (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=Flat+wire+recoil+springs&_sacat=0&_sop=15)
I'll do a test using the OEM hammer spring on the next couple of tests.
Your thoughts and suggestions.......
Tia,
Don
-
DJ
I just finish this chrono test with OEM Hammer spring,
This chrono test #4 was with the spring tunnel opened to .420",
and with a 18/19# OEM SPRING, same ammo as used before.,
(OEM Hammer spring is 18/19#'s at max compression, (coil bound), 3.150" long,
.390" dia O/S dim, x .300" I/S dim, with 15 coils.)
#4. Chrono test
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 552 fps for the Crosman HP pellets
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 645 fps for the same ammo.
#1. Chrono test (OEM Stock)
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 546 fps for Crosman HP,
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 640 fps for the same above ammo.
This chrono test is with the pump head lengthened 1 full turn from the OEM setting,
#2. Chrono Test
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 556 fps for the Crosman HP,
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 668 fps for the same ammo.
This chrono test was with the hammer spring tunnel opened to .420",
and with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils,
.23" thick Flat wire, same ammo as above,
#3. Chrono test
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 631 fps for the Crosman HP pellets,
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 684fps for the same ammo.
This rifle seems to be smoothing out with some shooting,
when pumping I was closing the handle every time, on all shots.
There is a major difference in bolt cocking resistance between these springs.
I'll run this spring until all chrono/tests are finished,
the next test will be standardizing/uniforming all TP holes,
which will be .140".
Your thoughts and suggestions..................
Tia,
Don
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When you specify spring tunnel, do you mean the inside of the hammer? Did you make a different spring guide to fit the FW spring?
Are these DF MK II's retained air pumpers by design? I just can't understand why a different spring would yield more power given the factory spring allows for a full dump.
I think I'll be ordering some FW springs for testing in my PCPs based on your experience with the DF MKII, which is just a MSP version of the PCPs I'm going to be testing. I even have a couple of plastic spring guides that would be easy for me to reduce in diameter for the FW spring if required.
-
DJ
Yes, I call the spring hole inside the hammer a spring tunnel.
I did make a new .250" spring guide out of black Nylon rod I had in the shop,
same dimensions as the OEM only .250" diameter.
I don't believe that they are retained air pumpers,
I check every shot and have NOT found any retained air left from the pumping,
with the OEM or the Flat wire springs being used..
I don't know what you mean by "MSP"?
When you use these FW springs for the first time, be sure to use them full length,
then after testing, you can clip a 1/4" off at a time to get where you want to go.
These FW springs do NOT stack like round coil wire springs,
they take some getting used to.
I have the ISMI FW springs in all weight ranges, then use a spring that will work the best,
I start with the light weight (full length) then go up 1 weight step as needed.
Be sure to set the spring before you use it, (setting the spring means to take and compress
the spring to coil bound, no space between the coils, I do it 3 times), then use the spring.
I think these springs allow the hammer to stay in contact/open the valve a bit longer,
as they are slower acting while compressing the spring.
A sharp rap -vs- a slightly long slower push??
I remember Wes Bob using lighter hammer spring and having a good gain in ballistics,
on one of the DF II posts etc.
Your thoughts and suggestions.........
Tia,
Don
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DJ
Yes, I call the spring hole inside the hammer a spring tunnel.
I did make a new .250" spring guide out of black Nylon rod I had in the shop,
same dimensions as the OEM only .250" diameter.
I don't believe that they are retained air pumpers,
I check every shot and have NOT found any retained air left from the pumping,
with the OEM or the Flat wire springs being used..
I don't know what you mean by "MSP"?
When you use these FW springs for the first time, be sure to use them full length,
then after testing, you can clip a 1/4" off at a time to get where you want to go.
These FW springs do NOT stack like round coil wire springs,
they take some getting used to.
I have the ISMI FW springs in all weight ranges, then use a spring that will work the best,
I start with the light weight (full length) then go up 1 weight step as needed.
Be sure to set the spring before you use it, (setting the spring means to take and compress
the spring to coil bound, no space between the coils, I do it 3 times), then use the spring.
I think these springs allow the hammer to stay in contact/open the valve a bit longer,
as they are slower acting while compressing the spring.
A sharp rap -vs- a slightly long slower push??
I remember Wes Bob using lighter hammer spring and having a good gain in ballistics,
on one of the DF II posts etc.
Your thoughts and suggestions.........
Tia,
Don
MSP: multi stroke pneumatic
How can increasing valve dwell make more power if the valve is totally emptied with even less dwell?
Maybe the increase in valve lift is getting the charge out quicker, and the whole valve is discharged before the pellet leaves the muzzle. Perhaps there is only a full valve dump with the factory spring due to hammer bounce.
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Dj
Unknown to me, it might be that everything is in a better balance,
but I know it works, maybe Bob can explain it..........LOL
there are several air gun Guru's here that know a lot more than me,
I just shoot them.............LOL
I finally figured out a SSG for the DF, that I'll add before too long.
I am really curious about the results when all the TP holes are of the same size,
then start enlarging a few thousands per step to see the results.
Some where on this site is a chart of these steps, but I can't find it now,
I know Bob has one and I think Grin Reaper has one also.
Tia,
Don
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Ok Guys
Here is some more info for/about the DF II and Storm Rider rifles.
Th DF II has a hammer travel distance of 1.100",
and the valve stem protrusion of .180".
The Storm Rider 22 cal has a hammer travel of 1.010",
with a hammer spring of 3.360" long, 6# compression weight to coil bound,
.390" O/S dia, .300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .036" wire thickness.
Valve stem protrusion is .110"
So the hammer spring weight difference is 12/13#'s for the DF II
as compared to the Storm Rider.
I am using a 11# Flat Wire spring and have seen the FPS increase,
to a max of 684 FPS w/14 gr Crosman pellets.
Your thoughts and suggestions............
Tia,
Don
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Interesting that the valve stems are different, I wouldn't have guessed.
-
Dj
I haven't checked my other Storm Rider 17 cal rifle and I have a Varmint one in 22 cal on the hammer spring spec's.
Once I finish that, I'll add the info here, hopefully this will help the next shooter coming along,
I have a strange bug for a DF II in the following calibers 17-20-22-25.
I know that a DF II will become a 20 cal to tease my Dan's............LOL
I just finished the 1 thru 10 pumps x 3 each per pump, and this is the chrono results,
with Crosman 14 gr ammo, pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm,
per pump stroke.
11# Flat Wire spring, full 5" length, 1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed.
1 pump = 288 fps
2 pumps= 321 fps
3 pumps= 354 fps
4 pumps= 561 fps
5 pumps= 597fps
6 pumps= 610fps
7 pumps =616fps
8 pumps =620fps
9 pumps =656fps
10 pumps =688fps
No remaining air in pressure tube for any shot. I just hope that the accuracy is there,
so far every shot taken has impacted the targets out to 50 yds, this is with iron sights
which are hard for me to see........ ::)
Your thoughts and suggestions.......
Tia,
Don
-
Dj
I haven't checked my other Storm Rider 17 cal rifle and I have a Varmint one in 22 cal on the hammer spring spec's.
Once I finish that, I'll add the info here, hopefully this will help the next shooter coming along,
I have a strange bug for a DF II in the following calibers 17-20-22-25.
I know that a DF II will become a 20 cal to tease my Dan's............LOL
I just finished the 1 thru 10 pumps x 3 each per pump, and this is the chrono results,
with Crosman 14 gr ammo, pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm,
per pump stroke.
11# Flat Wire spring, full 5" length, 1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed.
1 pump = 288 fps
2 pumps= 321 fps
3 pumps= 354 fps
4 pumps= 561 fps
5 pumps= 597fps
6 pumps= 610fps
7 pumps =616fps
8 pumps =620fps
9 pumps =656fps
10 pumps =688fps
No remaining air in pressure tube for any shot. I just hope that the accuracy is there,
so far every shot taken has impacted the targets out to 50 yds, this is with iron sights
which are hard for me to see........ ::)
Your thoughts and suggestions.......
Tia,
Don
Wow, 4 pumps is where something really changes. Does that correlate with a change in accuracy?
I like shooting lead frees out of my DF I at 1 and 2 pumps for how quiet it is though lately been getting more of a workout at 5 to 8 pumps with ftts.
-
SB
Ya, I have been eyeing that step also, JDLR, if you know what I mean.
I'll redo that test again, to see the results etc, and go the full 15 pumps.
I have one of those cheap $25 chrono,
I just dropped it right in the middle of test,
More correctly I should say, the WIND blew it off the table in the middle of the test...........LOL
And I haven't tuned the hammer spring, for length yet, either.
I haven't got to the accuracy part, still getting it broke in and smoothed out,
have less than a can run it so far.
I am hoping that the NOE Wadcutter pellets work OK,
I just Love the sound of that flat face smacking a Sage Bunny............
I am beginning to LOVE this pumper................ ;)
Your thoughts and suggestions......
Tia,
Don
-
The dragonfly has stayed in my go to plinker rack for longer than any other airgun, which is in my 50 ft home range. Also a great distance for wadcutter hunting/shooting.
I used to shoot mostly daisy lead free wadcutters on one or two pumps, but the past year it has been fed ftt greens, ftt 4.50s, and the leftover hunter extreme pellets. Despite the wood, it's a light offhand shooter and a decent workout for the underarm muscles over longer sessions.
I put a basic hawke vantage 2-7x on it and am happy with that match. Had a small handful of other scopes on it previously, which were all fine.
Filing the transfer port burrs made a noticeable difference.
Thinking about hammer spring change. My little, local hardware store has a nice spring selection.
Mine is .177.
-
SB
Are you running the Mod I or Mod II model?
What's the average fps for the middle and Heavy weights of pellets?
Don
-
OK Guys
Here is the full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length.
The average is this, 14 gr Crosman ammo.
1 pump = 265 fps
2 pumps= 288 fps
3 pumps= 322 fps
4 pumps= 465 fps
5 pumps= 515 fps
6 pumps= 567 fps
7 pumps = 600 fps
8 pumps = 633 fps
9 pumps = 652 fps
10 pumps = 666 fps
11 pumps = 678 fps
12 pumps = 679 fps
13 pumps = 681 fps
14 pumps = 680 fps
15 pumps = 679 fps
16 thru 20 pumps = 679 to 688 fps, (1 pump test only for these last shots)
there was no extra air left after the shot.
NO MORE, I am pooped,
IMHO, 10 to 12 pumps will be MY maximum effort,
for the little gain above this is not worth the effort. YMMV
Here is one thing I cannot wrap my head around,.......... :o
If you don't cock the bolt, and complete a full pump stroke,
you can hear the pumped air escape etc.
How can this be happening, there is no valve to release this pumped air,
The only thing I can think of, the valve poppet releases the air,
because of the hammer resting on the end of the valve stem,
and is not allowing the valve to retain this air??
Your thoughts and suggestions...............
Tia,
Don
-
On my stock DF2 I found 12 pumps to be the most consistent for high power shots, My 2˘
-
OK Guys
Here is the full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
with the 11# Flat wire spring, full length.
The average is this, 14 gr Crosman ammo.
1 pump = 265 fps
2 pumps= 288 fps
3 pumps= 322 fps
4 pumps= 465 fps
5 pumps= 515 fps
6 pumps= 567 fps
7 pumps = 600 fps
8 pumps = 633 fps
9 pumps = 652 fps
10 pumps = 666 fps
11 pumps = 678 fps
12 pumps = 679 fps
13 pumps = 681 fps
14 pumps = 680 fps
15 pumps = 679 fps
16 thru 20 pumps = 679 to 688 fps, (1 pump test only for these last shots)
there was no extra air left after the shot.
NO MORE, I am pooped,
IMHO, 10 to 12 pumps will be MY maximum effort,
for the little gain above this is not worth the effort. YMMV
Here is one thing I cannot wrap my head around,.......... :o
If you don't cock the bolt, and complete a full pump stroke,
you can hear the pumped air escape etc.
How can this be happening, there is no valve to release this pumped air,
The only thing I can think of, the valve poppet releases the air,
because of the hammer resting on the end of the valve stem,
and is not allowing the valve to retain this air??
Your thoughts and suggestions...............
Tia,
Don
If you hear the air leaking out from the end of the barrel, it would be leaking past the poppet due to low pressure to seal on only one pump.
Looking at your numbers peaking at around nine or ten and not gaining much more maybe the pump pressure is not above what is already in the valve so no more pressure can go into it. Must be some extra headspace in there.
I don’t know what to expect from the df2 in power or the durability of the pump linkage. My guess would be about 19 fpe would make a long lasting gun. Wouldn’t hurt to collect a spare pump linkage.
-
Hi Charles
How can I chrono 1 shot, if the air is leaking past the poppet due to low pressure?
IMHO, it has to be that the hammer is pushing hard enough on the poppet stem,
allowing the air to leak past the poppet.
When the rifle is cocked, the poppet seals and holds the air..........
allowing the pumped air to build pressure etc.
I'll do a test and remove the hammer spring and see if the valve passes the pumper air,
or holds the air, when the bolt is NOT cocked etc.
There is approximately 1" of extra headspace between the end of the pump rod head
and the face of the valve, as I posted earlier. As soon as I am finished with testing session,
I'll dive into this extra headspace issue and see what can happen to use this headspace up.
I still have to do the Flat Wire 11# spring and the 15 pump test also.
Your thoughts and suggestions...............
Tia,
Don
If you hear the air leaking out from the end of the barrel, it would be leaking past the poppet due to low pressure to seal on only one pump.
Looking at your numbers peaking at around nine or ten and not gaining much more maybe the pump pressure is not above what is already in the valve so no more pressure can go into it. Must be some extra headspace in there.
I don’t know what to expect from the df2 in power or the durability of the pump linkage. My guess would be about 19 fpe would make a long lasting gun. Wouldn’t hurt to collect a spare pump linkage. [/quote]
-
I haven't read all the posts, but I thought those had more power than that when stock. Anything more than 9 pumps is negligible, in my opinion.
-
Cock the gun before you pump, like A Diasy 901/880.
-
Hi Steve
From what I have been reading, apparently the OEM hammer spring is too strong?
I have been testing a Flat Wire 11# spring and gain a better amount of power,
along with very easy bolt pull pressure.
I finished the 15 shot pump test using the OEM 18/19# weight and the results
weren't that good in my humble opinion.
I'll change the OEM spring out to the 11# weight and retest the 15 pump test, to see the results.
Thanks,
Your thoughts and suggestions.....
Tia,
Don
I haven't read all the posts, but I thought those had more power than that when stock. Anything more than 9 pumps is negligible, in my opinion.
-
DJ
Did you read the question I ask in post# 360? ;)
"Here is one thing I cannot wrap my head around,.......... :o
If you don't cock the bolt, and complete a full pump stroke,
you can hear the pumped air escape etc.
How can this be happening, there is no valve to release this pumped air?"
The only thing I can think of, the valve poppet releases the air,
because of the hammer is resting on the end of the valve stem,
and is not allowing the valve to retain this air??
I know to cock the rifle before pumping..............
Your thoughts and suggestions...............
Tia,
Don
Cock the gun before you pump, like A Diasy 901/880.
-
As an update to my question, ;)
I changed the hammer spring out to my 11# Flat Wire spring, for the pending 15 pump test,
and I found out the OEM hammer spring 18/19# does allow the hammer to rest
on and hold the valve stem open to release the pumped air, when the hammer is not cocked back.
This released air comes out the barrel.
Tia,
Don
-
OK
Here is the full 15 shot pump test, 3 pumps per the number,
with the 11# Flat wire spring, full length, with crosman ammo 14 gr.
The average is,
1 pump = 265 fps
2 pumps = 288 fps
3 pumps = 383 fps
4 pumps = 469 fps
5 pumps = 524 fps
6 pumps = 567 fps
7 pumps = 613 fps
8 pumps = 636 fps
9 pumps = 652 fps
10 pumps = 688 fps
11 thru 15 pumps = 688 fps or less, (1 pump test only for these last shots)
there was no extra air left after the shots.
I feel that the point of no return has been reached
between the valve/hammer spring -vs- pumps. :o
I think, I need to lighten the valve spring just a touch,
as it is fairly heavy duty (not measured or tested yet,
and or maybe add a slightly heavier hammer spring?
Your thoughts and suggestions........
Tia,
Don
-
As an update to my question, ;)
I changed the hammer spring out to my 11# Flat Wire spring, for the pending 15 pump test,
and I found out the OEM hammer spring 18/19# does allow the hammer to rest
on and hold the valve stem open to release the pumped air, when the hammer is not cocked back.
This released air comes out the barrel.
Tia,
Don
Thanks, Don! That is interesting!
-
OK
Here is the full 15 shot pump test, 3 pumps per the number,
with the 11# Flat wire spring, full length, with crosman ammo 14 gr.
The average is,
1 pump = 265 fps
2 pumps = 288 fps
3 pumps = 383 fps
4 pumps = 469 fps
5 pumps = 524 fps
6 pumps = 567 fps
7 pumps = 613 fps
8 pumps = 636 fps
9 pumps = 652 fps
10 pumps = 688 fps
11 thru 15 pumps = 688 fps or less, (1 pump test only for these last shots)
there was no extra air left after the shots.
I feel that the point of no return has been reached
between the valve/hammer spring -vs- pumps. :o
I think, I need to lighten the valve spring just a touch,
as it is fairly heavy duty (not measured or tested yet,
and or maybe add a slightly heavier hammer spring?
Your thoughts and suggestions........
Tia,
Don
If the valve spring can be replaced with the non OEM spring you are using to make the custom hammer spring, making a custom valve spring and seeing what happens is the more interesting route to my mind, but my mind has never experienced making such changes to a pumper. A lighter valve spring makes sense intuitively to balance the forces. Thank you and keep us posted Don!
-
SB
I think there is several factors going on,
1. There is about 1" of extra headspace between the pump head and valve face,
these ends should be fairly close without touching for the maximum pumping,
and maximum FPS effort.
2. The valve spring is fairly Heavy Duty, and with the pumped pressure contained
inside the valve, I believe that these combined pressures are all the pump can force
into the valve, maybe a lighter valve spring will allow more pumped pressure
to be retained.
3. The OEM hammer spring is way too heavy in power weight,
I know the 11# hammer spring works very well and has a lighter bolt pull force,
but may need to be adjusted after the above problems are corrected,
careful testing should provide road too travel.
I'll start with the valve spring and do a 15 pump test, both OEM Hammer spring and
my 11# Flat Wire spring, and then work on the extra headspace,
and may make a new valve to used up the extra headspace being wasted now
and see where that leads too.
Thank you,
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Don
-
SB
I think there is several factors going on,
1. There is about 1" of extra headspace between the pump head and valve face,
these ends should be fairly close without touching for the maximum pumping,
and maximum FPS effort.
2. The valve spring is fairly Heavy Duty, and with the pumped pressure contained
inside the valve, I believe that these combined pressures are all the pump can force
into the valve, maybe a lighter valve spring will allow more pumped pressure
to be retained.
3. The OEM hammer spring is way too heavy in power weight,
I know the 11# hammer spring works very well and has a lighter bolt pull force,
but may need to be adjusted after the above problems are corrected,
careful testing should provide road too travel.
I'll start with the valve spring and do a 15 pump test, both OEM Hammer spring and
my 11# Flat Wire spring, and then work on the extra headspace,
and may make a new valve to used up the extra headspace being wasted now
and see where that leads too.
Thank you,
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Don
I think yours definitely has a gremlin in it somewhere. Mine seems to build more pressure more quickly and level off sooner. Three pumps is 450-ish and five pumps gives me about 550 fps with the same ammo. I don't think it goes much higher if at all at the top, though.
-
Hosp
LOL That's why it was listed as "REFURB", when I first got it I could hardy pump it,
lubed all the correct points etc, and it stated acting like a normal pumper......, like me..........
stiff, hard to move, "The get up and go, Got up and left" and after a couple of warm up tries,
"Hey, I can move"...........LOL
This pumper has ALLWAYS been ODD. ;)
I bought it thinking as a parts gun, for when I got a new good one, learn on this one etc.
But I have grown to KINDA LIKE HER< so I'll see how far she leads me down the Garden Path
and watching for her little surprizes she may throw at me, then I'll be singing "Help Me Ronda,
Help, Help me..........LOL.
Comparing the pump tests I have done so far, she seems a little twisted,
Chrono test (OEM STOCK RIFLE) on my new Dragon Fly II (Refub),
with these results, with my Chinese chrono, same ammo used thru out these tests.
1. Chrono test = 14 gr Crosman HP
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 546 fps,
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 640 fps.
2. Chrono Test
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 556 fps,
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 668 fps.
Chrono test was with the hammer spring tunnel opened to .420",
and with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
3. Chrono test
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 631 fps,
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 684fps.
Chrono test #4 was with the spring tunnel opened to .420",
and with a 18/19# OEM SPRING, same ammo as used before.,
(OEM Hammer spring is 18/19#'s at max compression, (coil bound), 3.150" long,
.390" dia O/S dim, x .300" I/S dim, with 15 coils.)
#4. Chrono test
5 shot group at 5 pumps averaged 552 fps,
5 shot group at 10 pumps averaged 645 fps.
This chrono test is with the pump head lengthened 1 full turn from the OEM setting,
I just finished the 1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed. A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
1 pump = 288 fps
2 pumps= 321 fps
3 pumps= 354 fps
4 pumps= 561 fps
5 pumps= 597fps
6 pumps= 610fps
7 pumps =616fps
8 pumps =620fps
9 pumps =656fps
10 pumps =688fps
No remaining air in pressure tube for any shot.
Here is the full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length, same as above.
1 pump = 265 fps
2 pumps= 288 fps
3 pumps= 322 fps
4 pumps= 465 fps
5 pumps= 515 fps
6 pumps= 567 fps
7 pumps = 600 fps
8 pumps = 633 fps
9 pumps = 652 fps
10 pumps = 666 fps
11 pumps = 678 fps
12 pumps = 679 fps
13 pumps = 681 fps
14 pumps = 680 fps
15 pumps = 679 fps
16 thru 20 pumps = 679 to 688 fps, (1 pump test only for these last shots)
there was no extra air left after the shot.
15 shot pump test, 3 pumps per the number,
with the 11# Flat wire spring, full length, same as above.
1 pump = 265 fps
2 pumps = 288 fps
3 pumps = 383 fps
4 pumps = 469 fps
5 pumps = 524 fps
6 pumps = 567 fps
7 pumps = 613 fps
8 pumps = 636 fps
9 pumps = 652 fps
10 pumps = 688 fps
11 thru 15 pumps = 688 fps or less, (1 pump test only for these last shots)
there was no extra air left after the shots.
My next step will be the valve main spring,
I think it is limiting the power/fps available, by being overly too strong (IMHO).
Thank you,
Your thoughts and suggestions..............
Tia,
Don
-
IIRC Wes at AirgunsArcheryFun figured out how to mod the Dragonfly for LOT more power mainly by installing a weaker hammer spring. It sounds counterintuitive but it was said by a lot of reputable people to work to the tune of almost doubling muzzle energy. Is that where you're eventually headed?
Where I live a 50 yard shot on a squirrel is pretty long so I don't care that much about more power. I'm happy with mine the way it is. 12.3 ft-lbs after 8 pumps will get me out to 30 yards easily and 40 if everything comes together just right.
-
After the valve spring change, transfer port... but that's thinking steps ahead! Valve spring could do lots or nothing! Excited to read results!
-
Hosp
Yes,
Attempting to give a good overall picture of this rifle and possible improvements/potential,
if the owners want to go there, I am tickled pick with the results so far,
but I feel there is a lot left on the table, that is not being used..
I am just taking the long way around and making sure I cover most of the bases.
Wes, does use a weaker hammer spring and opens the air ways up,
for his great success in the 25 cal DF II rifles.
Just compare/take a look at the OEM (18/19#spring) -vs- 11# FW spring I use,
and I haven't open any air ways yet.
I'll have to make a slightly thinner diameter spring test rod
so I can measure the OEM valve spring etc,
then I'll try a lighter spring rate for the valve spring and do some tests.
Your thoughts and suggestions,
Tia,
Don
IIRC Wes at AirgunsArcheryFun figured out how to mod the Dragonfly for LOT more power mainly by installing a weaker hammer spring. It sounds counterintuitive but it was said by a lot of reputable people to work to the tune of almost doubling muzzle energy. Is that where you're eventually headed?
-
Thanks Sb
I am going to find out...........LOL ;)
Tia,
Don
-
Here is the next installment of information.
Stripped her down to small parts and did some careful measurements.
Using the maximum measurements on how deep the the pump rod head goes
into the pressure tube and the length of the valve when when seated
on the pressure tube crimp marks, there is .610" of dead headspace right now.
So, I moved the pump rod head out (longer) by 1 turn,
I am at the maximum length (2 full turns) possible and still allow air to be drawn
in thru the pressure tube air vent.
The only way to use this dead pump rod headspace air is to make a .600" longer valve head.
Valve info:
Pressure tube = .870" O/S and .770" I/S diameter,
Valve length overall = 2.520"
O/S diameter = . 765"
Air inlet hole = .100" Dia by .180" long, with that compressed type of air screen at the end,
then taper into the valve main chamber = .450" diameter by 2.170" long,
(contains the valve spring and plastic seats).
Both ends of this air chamber are tapered, the inlet side has the tapered plastic seat/seals,
(for containment of pumped air) and the exit end also has a taper for the valve seat/seals.
Valve spring =1.475" long by .295" O/S dia, 12 coils, spring weight of 3.5#'s,
Valve sealing "O" ring = .070" thick x .550" I/S dia x .690" O/S dia, (Middle "o" ring)
Valve sealing "O" rings for pressure tube = .113" thick x .520" I/S dia x .745" O/S diam,
x 2 "O" rings.
TP "O" rings .078" thick x .231" I/S dia x .395" O/S dia. x 2 "o" rings,
1 in valve and 1 in the action.
BBL "O" ring = .056" thick x .215" I/S dia x .326" O/S dia. for end of the bbl,
for bolt sealing.
There is a very distinct hammer impact of the rear of the valve,
valve stem length protrusion of .110" at the end of the valve,
I'll be using a SSG to reduce this contact...........
I'll do a 10 pump test to see any changes.
Your thoughts and suggestions.....
Tia,
Don
-
What an installment! Haven't seen a specifications sheet like this elsewhere, Don. Looking forward to the pump test at 2 turns!
-
Thanks SB
I believe that the .600+" of dead air not being used is holding back this pumper,
along with the restricted compression containment chamber of 2.170 x .450" diameter,
for 10 to 15 pumps of air?
Then add all the internal valve parts, see post#332, and the center photo,
along with the tapered ends of the valve air release end, it all adds up,
too not much room inside?
I know there is a formula for figuring the CI of the compression cylinder,
I have it saved inside this plastic box, Somewhere?
I am just about ready to make a new valve that is .600" longer and good valve seats and
as large inside diameter as safely possible, to see the results.
I DO NOT LIKE the end of the valve being pounded on by the hammer,
it won't be long before the end is all mashed up and causing problems with the valve stem.
I have got to fix that problem asap, I just have to figure out all the angles, first.
If the wind would have quieted down today (30/40 mph), I would have finished the 10 pump test to see the results of the 2 turn pump head extension.
Your thoughts and suggestions......
Tia,
Don
-
Don, the food for thought your post provides is also food for a personal Dragonfly fantasy/wish: if the test yields significant enough results, a post simplifying the process of disassembling the rifle in order to make the change from 1 turn to 2 and achieve the results in a manner accessible to novice or intermediate tinkerers.
That's, of course, not just a fantasy but also steps ahead! The test is next and the questions being explored in your dragonfly work are a great read!
-
I like where you're going with this. A longer valve will most likely have more volume, and require more pumps to get to pressure levels than the smaller, stock valve.
Increasing the compression ratio with a longer valve, will hopefully bring the number of pumps needed back down.
Might need the mechanical advantage of the Dragonfly2 linkage to keep the pumping effort down...
When you modify the valve, maybe a longer valve stem would increase the dwell/open time of the valve. May need more time open to use the extra air a longer valve will add...
This is great stuff, and I bought a second (refurb) DF2 in .22 to experiment with...
-
HPP
I'll make a new top half of the valve, if I have the correct tap/die in metric to fit,
and make the end into a normal poppet valve seal, instead of tapered at both ends.
If Not, I'll make a whole new valve using 11/16 x 16 tpi threads, I know, I the correct tap/die,
and this will allow a good valve seats at both ends and larger inside valve diameter for more volume etc.
I'll try to finish this next 10 pump test with the pump rod head turned out 2 complete turns,
to see the results.
If I figured out the internal volume of the pressure tube correctly for the at 6.300" (now),
of pump stroke depth, I have pretty close to 11.75 Cubic Inch of volume,
so that .600" of dead air space would help more?
Hoping that the larger inside valve volume will make up for the pumps strokes need etc,
I would like to get in the 700 - 750 fps class with the 14 gr Crosmans,
when all the steps/tests are finished.......... ;)
Your thoughts and suggestions...........
Thanks,
Don
-
Guys
Next installment test/information.
I just finished the 1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
1 pump = 262 fps
2 pumps= 380 fps
3 pumps= 462 fps
4 pumps= 524 fps
5 pumps= 574 fps
6 pumps= 620 fps
7 pumps= 643 fps
8 pumps= 672 fps
9 pumps= 688 fps
10 pumps= 698 fps
No remaining air in valve for any shot.
I went to 15 pumps, but all tests were at or below the 10 pump test for fps,
seemed to stalled out at the 10 pump test? And I don't know why, yet.
1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed. A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
1 pump = 288 fps
2 pumps= 321 fps
3 pumps= 354 fps
4 pumps= 561 fps
5 pumps= 597fps
6 pumps= 610fps
7 pumps =616fps
8 pumps =620fps
9 pumps =656fps
10 pumps =688fps
No remaining air in valve for any shot.
A slight increase noted between 1 and 2 turns out on pump head.
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Tia,
Don
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The difference between the 1 pump fps reading at 2 vs 1 turn is interesting. Graphing it in my minds eye, the jump between 1 and 2 pumps at 2 turns and the jump between 3 and 4 pumps at 1 turn is also interesting. Are the readings at 3 and 4 pumps correct at 1 turn or should that 5xx be a 4xx on pump 4?
Curious what three sets of pump data for each would tell. Curious if the big jumps would stay at the pump number they are at or change. Has consistency changed with the 2 vs 1 turn?
I'm hooked Don. What are you thinking?
-
SB
Those are the correct chrono numbers for each step/test on the 1 turn pump head,
and the 2 turn tests..
On the 2 turn head, notice how there seems to be a more gradual increase in fps,
even thou the fps started lower than the 1 turn test, but then stalls out at the 10 pump level,
that is what don't make sense to me.
I need to contact BOB S and see if he can explain this to me, as I am at a loss now.
I know he built a pumper he uses for this grouse hunting that was outstanding in the results.
I am beginning to wonder now........ ;)
I still think it is a combination of the valve and the dead headspace on pumping.
Your thoughts and suggestions......
Tia,
Don
-
I did notice the more gradual increase beginning at pump 2 and overall the graph of the 2 turn data is a cleaner curve.
Regarding the 1 turn data, the big jump in fps between pump 3 and 4 is a bit baffling. I wonder what is going on there and if it would happen in repeated tests.
Back to the 2 turn numbers, 380 fps from 2 pumps and 460 from 3 pumps is pretty impressive stuff.
The 698 fps is more than the stock gun was putting out with that weight pellet. You might be hitting a transfer port bottle neck. If it's not at 80% of the pellet head size, might be worth drilling it open a bit for better breathing. You might then get over 700 and some use from 11 or more pumps.
-
Sb
Here are the dimensions of all the TP Holes,
and I know they can be opened up to around .170"+" dia, = 70% roughly,
which is the next steps/test coming.
BBl TP hole is .134" Dia, = 62% roughly,
Action TP Hole is .134" Dia,
Brass TP is .136" Dia x .295" tall x .356" dia, = 63% roughly,
w/a step on each end that fits into a rubber "O" ring on the action and the valve,
Main valve is 2.520" long x .765" dia, and has a TP hole of .136" Dia.
So this indicates that these TP holes are restricted........... ;)
And the more I shoot it the smoother the pumping is getting,
I have about 200-350 rds thru it now, in between blowing 30+ wind gusts.
Tia,
Don
-
HPP
If and when you get to the tearing down part, can you do this method,
and see what the depth of the pump stroke is on your DF II.
Just barely raise the pump handle before the unlock point,
so you can see the bottom of the slot, "U" section and make a very light scratch
mark on the pump arm.
Then open the pump up fully extended and measure the distance from the scratch mark
to the end of the pump rod head.
When you pull the pump rod parts out, measure from the "U" of the slot of the pressure tube
to the top of the valve.
I am curious of what these length measurements are.
I am looking for first type I of the DF (Parts Donor) to see what those measurements are,
as they had the Rubber ball and other stuff on the end of the pump rod.
I am also curious, WHY didn't they extend the valve length to use/get the most from the pump stroke?
As it is a shame they wasted all the headspace of the pressure tube,
and they could of had a smaller more compact pumper.
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Tia,
Don
I like where you're going with this. A longer valve will most likely have more volume, and require more pumps to get to pressure levels than the smaller, stock valve.
Increasing the compression ratio with a longer valve, will hopefully bring the number of pumps needed back down.
Might need the mechanical advantage of the Dragonfly2 linkage to keep the pumping effort down...
When you modify the valve, maybe a longer valve stem would increase the dwell/open time of the valve. May need more time open to use the extra air a longer valve will add...
This is great stuff, and I bought a second (refurb) DF2 in .22 to experiment with...
-
HPP
If and when you get to the tearing down part, can you do this method,
and see what the depth of the pump stroke is on your DF II.
Just barely raise the pump handle before the unlock point,
so you can see the bottom of the slot, "U" section and make a very light scratch
mark on the pump arm.
Then open the pump up fully extended and measure the distance from the scratch mark
to the end of the pump rod head.
When you pull the pump rod parts out, measure from the "U" of the slot of the pressure tube
to the top of the valve.
I am curious of what these length measurements are.
I am looking for first type I of the DF (Parts Donor) to see what those measurements are,
as they had the Rubber ball and other stuff on the end of the pump rod.
I am also curious, WHY didn't they extend the valve length to use/get the most from the pump stroke?
As it is a shame they wasted all the headspace of the pressure tube,
and they could of had a smaller more compact pumper.
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Tia,
Don
I like where you're going with this. A longer valve will most likely have more volume, and require more pumps to get to pressure levels than the smaller, stock valve.
Increasing the compression ratio with a longer valve, will hopefully bring the number of pumps needed back down.
Might need the mechanical advantage of the Dragonfly2 linkage to keep the pumping effort down...
When you modify the valve, maybe a longer valve stem would increase the dwell/open time of the valve. May need more time open to use the extra air a longer valve will add...
This is great stuff, and I bought a second (refurb) DF2 in .22 to experiment with...
Does the gap reduce pump effort? Perhaps the MFG took measures to reduce performance to avoid competing with the PCP on the same platform.
-
HPP
If and when you get to the tearing down part, can you do this method,
and see what the depth of the pump stroke is on your DF II.
Just barely raise the pump handle before the unlock point,
so you can see the bottom of the slot, "U" section and make a very light scratch
mark on the pump arm.
Then open the pump up fully extended and measure the distance from the scratch mark
to the end of the pump rod head.
When you pull the pump rod parts out, measure from the "U" of the slot of the pressure tube
to the top of the valve.
I am curious of what these length measurements are.
I am looking for first type I of the DF (Parts Donor) to see what those measurements are,
as they had the Rubber ball and other stuff on the end of the pump rod.
I am also curious, WHY didn't they extend the valve length to use/get the most from the pump stroke?
As it is a shame they wasted all the headspace of the pressure tube,
and they could of had a smaller more compact pumper.
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Tia,
Don
I like where you're going with this. A longer valve will most likely have more volume, and require more pumps to get to pressure levels than the smaller, stock valve.
Increasing the compression ratio with a longer valve, will hopefully bring the number of pumps needed back down.
Might need the mechanical advantage of the Dragonfly2 linkage to keep the pumping effort down...
When you modify the valve, maybe a longer valve stem would increase the dwell/open time of the valve. May need more time open to use the extra air a longer valve will add...
This is great stuff, and I bought a second (refurb) DF2 in .22 to experiment with...
Does the gap reduce pump effort? Perhaps the MFG took measures to reduce performance to avoid competing with the PCP on the same platform.
Exactly my thoughts as I read along but I wasn't sure if we were discussing the Gen I or the DF2.
-
HPP
If and when you get to the tearing down part, can you do this method,
and see what the depth of the pump stroke is on your DF II.
Just barely raise the pump handle before the unlock point,
so you can see the bottom of the slot, "U" section and make a very light scratch
mark on the pump arm.
Then open the pump up fully extended and measure the distance from the scratch mark
to the end of the pump rod head.
When you pull the pump rod parts out, measure from the "U" of the slot of the pressure tube
to the top of the valve.
I am curious of what these length measurements are.
I am looking for first type I of the DF (Parts Donor) to see what those measurements are,
as they had the Rubber ball and other stuff on the end of the pump rod.
I am also curious, WHY didn't they extend the valve length to use/get the most from the pump stroke?
As it is a shame they wasted all the headspace of the pressure tube,
and they could of had a smaller more compact pumper.
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Tia,
Don
I like where you're going with this. A longer valve will most likely have more volume, and require more pumps to get to pressure levels than the smaller, stock valve.
Increasing the compression ratio with a longer valve, will hopefully bring the number of pumps needed back down.
Might need the mechanical advantage of the Dragonfly2 linkage to keep the pumping effort down...
When you modify the valve, maybe a longer valve stem would increase the dwell/open time of the valve. May need more time open to use the extra air a longer valve will add...
This is great stuff, and I bought a second (refurb) DF2 in .22 to experiment with...
Does the gap reduce pump effort? Perhaps the MFG took measures to reduce performance to avoid competing with the PCP on the same platform.
You're probably right. That, and maybe to reduce the stress/breakage on the linkages and such.
-
Increasing the pumping effort is fine with me! I've got the DF I. Helps me build these airguns! [arm muscles flexing] [chuckling]
-
HPP
If and when you get to the tearing down part, can you do this method,
and see what the depth of the pump stroke is on your DF II.
Just barely raise the pump handle before the unlock point,
so you can see the bottom of the slot, "U" section and make a very light scratch
mark on the pump arm.
Then open the pump up fully extended and measure the distance from the scratch mark
to the end of the pump rod head.
When you pull the pump rod parts out, measure from the "U" of the slot of the pressure tube
to the top of the valve.
I am curious of what these length measurements are.
I am looking for first type I of the DF (Parts Donor) to see what those measurements are,
as they had the Rubber ball and other stuff on the end of the pump rod.
I am also curious, WHY didn't they extend the valve length to use/get the most from the pump stroke?
As it is a shame they wasted all the headspace of the pressure tube,
and they could of had a smaller more compact pumper.
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Tia,
Don
I like where you're going with this. A longer valve will most likely have more volume, and require more pumps to get to pressure levels than the smaller, stock valve.
Increasing the compression ratio with a longer valve, will hopefully bring the number of pumps needed back down.
Might need the mechanical advantage of the Dragonfly2 linkage to keep the pumping effort down...
When you modify the valve, maybe a longer valve stem would increase the dwell/open time of the valve. May need more time open to use the extra air a longer valve will add...
This is great stuff, and I bought a second (refurb) DF2 in .22 to experiment with...
Does the gap reduce pump effort? Perhaps the MFG took measures to reduce performance to avoid competing with the PCP on the same platform.
Exactly my thoughts as I read along but I wasn't sure if we were discussing the Gen I or the DF2.
I spoke wrong here.. My thoughts were not agreeing with the "competing with the PCP" thing. I personally don't think that was a factor.
The GEN I was notorious for hard pumping. That was specifically the reason I didn't even consider one.
The DF2 attracted me because of what they did to reduce the pumping effort.
I don't know if that head space has anything to do with this reduction in effort but if it does, I would not be interested in eliminating it. I have other options if my main goal is power. If I was after power I would have probably not bought mine in .177. ;)
I like my DF2 because it's pumper friendly.. among other things.
But it's still fun to read along.
-
HPP
If and when you get to the tearing down part, can you do this method,
and see what the depth of the pump stroke is on your DF II.
Just barely raise the pump handle before the unlock point,
so you can see the bottom of the slot, "U" section and make a very light scratch
mark on the pump arm.
Then open the pump up fully extended and measure the distance from the scratch mark
to the end of the pump rod head.
When you pull the pump rod parts out, measure from the "U" of the slot of the pressure tube
to the top of the valve.
I am curious of what these length measurements are.
I am looking for first type I of the DF (Parts Donor) to see what those measurements are,
as they had the Rubber ball and other stuff on the end of the pump rod.
I am also curious, WHY didn't they extend the valve length to use/get the most from the pump stroke?
As it is a shame they wasted all the headspace of the pressure tube,
and they could of had a smaller more compact pumper.
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Tia,
Don
I like where you're going with this. A longer valve will most likely have more volume, and require more pumps to get to pressure levels than the smaller, stock valve.
Increasing the compression ratio with a longer valve, will hopefully bring the number of pumps needed back down.
Might need the mechanical advantage of the Dragonfly2 linkage to keep the pumping effort down...
When you modify the valve, maybe a longer valve stem would increase the dwell/open time of the valve. May need more time open to use the extra air a longer valve will add...
This is great stuff, and I bought a second (refurb) DF2 in .22 to experiment with...
Does the gap reduce pump effort? Perhaps the MFG took measures to reduce performance to avoid competing with the PCP on the same platform.
Exactly my thoughts as I read along but I wasn't sure if we were discussing the Gen I or the DF2.
I spoke wrong here.. My thoughts were not agreeing with the "competing with the PCP" thing. I personally don't think that was a factor.
The GEN I was notorious for hard pumping. That was specifically the reason I didn't even consider one.
The DF2 attracted me because of what they did to reduce the pumping effort.
I don't know if that head space has anything to do with this reduction in effort but if it does, I would not be interested in eliminating it. I have other options if my main goal is power. If I was after power I would have probably not bought mine in .177. ;)
I like my DF2 because it's pumper friendly.. among other things.
But it's still fun to read along.
In my experience, the increased pumping effort of the gen 1 was due to the buffer used on the piston rod. Seems like it swelled when compressed and added pumping resistance. I made a new one, omitting the buffer and pumping effort went down. I'm not the only one that has reported that. In fact I think I may have read it here or somewhere else before I did it myself.
Reminds me...I need to dig it out and chrony it. Idk why I didn't at the time. Seems like somebody had borrowed my chrony maybe, can't remember.
-
Ok, I watched a couple videos on it when it was new and stepped away.
-
Thanks Guys
Question,
What is the new pump leverage (DF II) as compared to the original DF I rifle?
I think, I remember seeing a chart of the pump differences some where,
I would SWAG it is at least 2 to 1?
If anyone has the GEN 1 model 22 cal, can they please mark and measure how deep the end of the pump rod goes into the pressure tube, and if possible post of good clear photo of the end of the pump rod end.
What is your 10 pump test results, with 14gr ammo?
I still believe that .600+" of dead headspace is doing any good being wasted.
If and when this question is answered, this DF II rifle can be put back as in OEM condition,
if I so want too.
Your thoughts or suggestions.......
Tia,
Don
-
Hey Guys
After thinking about it, I think that today is going to be the standardization
of all the holes in the air passage route.
I'll use a reamer and go to .140" diameter and deburr when finished,
I don't think I have a .138" diameter reamer, with a 10 pump test,
to follow.
Here are the dimensions of all the air Holes,
BBl hole is .134" Dia, = 62% roughly,
Action Hole is .134" Dia,
Brass TP is .136" Dia = 63% roughly,
Main valve has a hole of .136" Dia.
I missed noting some of the dimensions of the valve and other parts,
and will update with the current information, before I make a new valve
with the maximum inside volume, and good sealing seats,
as tapered sealing seats are not the best options, for a maximum effort here.
Your thoughts or suggestions............
Tia,
Don
-
Getting some breathing room is what I'm most excited about and to see what happens! No suggestions. A request... if there is a big jump in fps between a sequence of pumps, repeat those pumps a couple times to get more data points describing that difference.
-
Thanks SB
What do you consider a big jumps in fps?
I will do that.
Tia,
Don
-
100 or more fps I would consider a big jump.
-
OK guys
Next installment, test information.
I just finished the 1 >15 pumps x 3 tests each per pump number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(D Test)
1 pump = 255 fps
2 pumps= 383 fps
3 pumps= 465 fps
4 pumps= 528 fps
5 pumps= 570 fps
6 pumps= 600 fps
7 pumps= 626 fps
8 pumps= 644 fps
9 pumps= 659 fps
10 pumps= 672 fps
11 pumps= 688 fps
12 pumps= 702 fps
13 pumps= 712 fps
14 - 15 pumps = all below 712 fps
No remaining air in valve after any shot test.
Summary of all the tests
Test A B C D
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-
7 pumps = 600-616-643-626-
8 pumps = 633-620-672-649-
9 pumps = 652-561-688-659-
10 pumps = 666-688-698-672-
11 pumps = 678-----------688-
12 pumps = 679-----------702-
13 pumps = 681-----------712-
14 pumps = 680---------<712 & under
15 pumps = 679---------<712 & under
there was no extra air left after the pump test, for any shot.
(A Test)
Here is the full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length,14 gr Crosman ammo
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed. A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(C Test)
I just finished the 1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(D TEST)
I just finished the 1 >15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
Your thoughts and or suggestions................
Tia,
Don
-
Have you done anything with the hammer, as in add weight ???
-
I think the only thing keeping it from retaining air is hammer bounce.
-
I think the headspace is holding you back. That's why you're not gaining above 13 pumps. The pressure in the tube per pump has to be high enough to overcome and therefore open the check valve. Or at least that's how I understand it.
I would like to hear from other owners who have taken theirs apart to see if they have as much headspace as yours. That just seems excessive. I'm surprised that you have made as much power as you have with that handicap.
-
Hi James
No, it is still a stock hammer = Hammer weight is 876 grains x .745" dia
I am looking at a couple of things,
1 = Hammer
2 = Valve seals and poppet, both ends are tapered seal designs = bad design, IMHO.
Thanks,
Your thoughts or suggestions......
Don
Have you done anything with the hammer, as in add weight ???
-
JD
I don't think in am getting hammer bounce, as I hear no Bruuup sound, just a clean snap of air release.
I am working on a SSG for it,
as I DON'T like the way the hammer is beating/impacting on the back of the valve, which is being deformed etc.
I may make a new hammer and change the design a little.
Your thoughts or suggestions.....
Thanks,
Don
I think the only thing keeping it from retaining air is hammer bounce.
-
My Stormrider using the very soft Chaser hammer spring and a 100b reg has hammer bounce. I can only hear it with a moderator, but it's there. I'm sure there's bounce happening on the DF MK II, unless your flat wire spring is preventing it.
-
2K1TJ
IMHO,
I believe that it is the inside diameter of the valve, .390" dia x 2.120" long,
the valve front seal =.290" dia x .600" long with the rear poppet = .315" dia x .500" long,
plus the valve spring = a total length of 2.190", all this inside a .390 dia x 2.120" long
inside valve volume/space???
I am hunting a Storm Rider valve to adapt to this FY II valve, which should have a flat poppet seal (Instead of a tapered seal) for the poppet, the top seal is also tapered (which allows the pumped air inside the valve).
I have some PEEK material for the poppet end, not sure about the top seal?
Yes, I also think the dead headspace is NOT helping either,
reason for the Storm Rider valve hunting.
Your thoughts and suggestions.............
Thanks
Don
I think the headspace is holding you back. That's why you're not gaining above 13 pumps. The pressure in the tube per pump has to be high enough to overcome and therefore open the check valve. Or at least that's how I understand it.
I would like to hear from other owners who have taken theirs apart to see if they have as much headspace as yours. That just seems excessive. I'm surprised that you have made as much power as you have with that handicap.
-
Those are incredible numbers given where you started, Don! Congrats on breaking 700!
The graph of the curve (fps gain vs pumps) is cleaner now that the rifle is breathing better. Something happens around 8 pumps where fps gain vs pumps flattens out to 10 or so fps gain per pump. Something going on there, not sure what.
The original dragonfly maxed out at 8 pumps, an association that comes to mind.
-
Thanks SB
My swag is, that there is NOT enough Volume inside the valve,
after all the other parts of the valve are stuffed inside, plus with the tapered poppet seat,
as I posted in 2K1TJ post above.
I am sure there is a formula that gives the best performance of a valve/volume,
I am not smart enough to figure this all out, yet.
I would bet that they used (OEM) the same valve in the Mod I model?
As I understand it, the Mod I model was very hard to pumps after a certain point,
I have not seen much info on the Mod I and the pump results for 10 shots or so, in 22 cal,
along with the lack of shooting/pump results being posted by other members,
who have these air rifles etc.
Back to the drawing board.............
Yours thoughts and suggestions...
Tia,
Don
-
Might that extra head space be designed in there to keep the pump compression intentionally lower to aid in easy pumping? At some point (pumps) no more air is going into the valve... Up the pump compression and/or increase valve volume? A bigger volume valve will have lower fps at lower pumps-unless the pump output can be equally upped at the same time. Nobody wants to pump 20-30 times a shot!
Im waiting on the weather to compare the stock hammer spring to Stormrider spring...
FYI- you can add hammer weight by installing the stock metal hammer spring guide against the hammer.
-
Might that extra head space be designed in there to keep the pump compression intentionally lower to aid in easy pumping? At some point (pumps) no more air is going into the valve... Up the pump compression and/or increase valve volume? A bigger volume valve will have lower fps at lower pumps-unless the pump output can be equally upped at the same time. Nobody wants to pump 20-30 times a shot!
Im waiting on the weather to compare the stock hammer spring to Stormrider spring...
FYI- you can add hammer weight by installing the stock metal hammer spring guide against the hammer.
I like to flatten slugs in a vise and drop those into the hammer, but I was thinking about flipping the spring guide. Is it still effective when flipped?
-
Might that extra head space be designed in there to keep the pump compression intentionally lower to aid in easy pumping? At some point (pumps) no more air is going into the valve... Up the pump compression and/or increase valve volume? A bigger volume valve will have lower fps at lower pumps-unless the pump output can be equally upped at the same time. Nobody wants to pump 20-30 times a shot!
Im waiting on the weather to compare the stock hammer spring to Stormrider spring...
FYI- you can add hammer weight by installing the stock metal hammer spring guide against the hammer.
I like to flatten slugs in a vise and drop those into the hammer, but I was thinking about flipping the spring guide. Is it still effective when flipped?
I discovered this by accident & shot the gun like that for quite a while before realizing I had put the guide in first. I didnt notice a difference, other than a slightly different sound.
If all the air is exiting the valve, is a heavier hammer necessary?
-
Might that extra head space be designed in there to keep the pump compression intentionally lower to aid in easy pumping? At some point (pumps) no more air is going into the valve... Up the pump compression and/or increase valve volume? A bigger volume valve will have lower fps at lower pumps-unless the pump output can be equally upped at the same time. Nobody wants to pump 20-30 times a shot!
Im waiting on the weather to compare the stock hammer spring to Stormrider spring...
FYI- you can add hammer weight by installing the stock metal hammer spring guide against the hammer.
I like to flatten slugs in a vise and drop those into the hammer, but I was thinking about flipping the spring guide. Is it still effective when flipped?
I discovered this by accident & shot the gun like that for quite a while before realizing I had put the guide in first. I didnt notice a difference, other than a slightly different sound.
If all the air is exiting the valve, is a heavier hammer necessary?
I suspect the valve only dumps due to hammer bounce. More dwell time for the poppet opening is really the goal, more hammer strike energy is just one path. I think a peek/PEI poppet would have a similar effect without more hammer weight. An SSG would prevent hammer bounce and test if the valve retains air without an additional strike. I also wonder what a lighter hammer would do in regards to velocities. I think Firewalker tried to use a custom light hammer and Stormrider spring in his HPA converted Chaser and increased the muzzle energy. Perhaps a faster strike somehow works better than a slower heavier strike?
-
Thanks SB
My swag is, that there is NOT enough Volume inside the valve,
after all the other parts of the valve are stuffed inside, plus with the tapered poppet seat,
as I posted in 2K1TJ post above.
I am sure there is a formula that gives the best performance of a valve/volume,
I am not smart enough to figure this all out, yet.
I would bet that they used (OEM) the same valve in the Mod I model?
As I understand it, the Mod I model was very hard to pumps after a certain point,
I have not seen much info on the Mod I and the pump results for 10 shots or so, in 22 cal,
along with the lack of shooting/pump results being posted by other members,
who have these air rifles etc.
Back to the drawing board.............
Yours thoughts and suggestions...
Tia,
Don
The valve volume should be about 4 to 4.5 cc for your 20ish length barrel.
That would be close to 30 percent of the barrel volume which is a good balance for a pumper.
Way more important is headspace as close to zero as possible. This would include reducing the inlet hole to 1 mm, square shaped o-ring on the front of the valve, reducing the margin thickness in front of the flattop piston o-ring to 1/64 . Along with adjusting the pump rod length.
So then you can assume 90% pump efficiency to calculate the pressure in the valve at your desired pump count to determine the valve volume needed for example 10 pumps.
One thing that you need to decide is the maximum pressure the pump linkage and gun design will tolerate.
392= 1800 psi. 362= 2500 psi.
DF2 = ? (1750)
So with proper headspace, valve size is very important . It won’t do much if you don’t have compression it won’t build much over 900 psi anyway.
Charles
-
Ok Guys
Thanks for the information,
Here is some information on this DFY II,
BBl overall length = 22-5/8" = 22 cal,
Pressure tube dimensions = .875" O/S Dia, .745 I/S dia,
Pump rod stroke depth = 6.940" = Maximum stroke depth, head Dia = .730",
with a "O" ring seal = .112" thick x I/S Dia = .527", O/S Dia =.750",
Inside valve dimensions = .390" I/S Dia x 2.120" long, inlet hole .102" Dia,
plus the tapered ends for the top/bottom seal/poppet seats,
did not measure these tapers dimensions.
Hammer weight = 876 grains, with 1.100' stroke length,
hammer spring = 18/19 #'s, 3.150" long x .390" O/S Dia x .300" I/S Dia, 15 coils,
Poppet stem protrusion = .180", hammer rests on the end of poppet stem after the shot,
hammer is marking the rear of the valve during the shot cycle.
I have never had any air left after the shot, in all these tests, I check after every shot,
so I am getting a complete valve air dump.
Guys, I just learned one of my dial calipers is not accurate,
I get different reading every time I use it, reads .550"+ longer per each inch length extensions,
I have dropped it several times.......... ::) :o
So I'll remeasure all dimensions of everything the next time I open it up,
just to make sure that the info is accurate.
I believe that all the above info is correct, as I was using a different dial calipers, I think?
PSI Pumper
Can you share with me the formula or a site that has this CC capacity's for what you were talking about.
I found a site and entered my info and came up with 11.73 CI for the volume
of the tube for compression = 6.940" stroke x .745" dia, just don't look right.
Thanks All,
Don
-
Thanks SB
My swag is, that there is NOT enough Volume inside the valve,
after all the other parts of the valve are stuffed inside, plus with the tapered poppet seat,
as I posted in 2K1TJ post above.
I am sure there is a formula that gives the best performance of a valve/volume,
I am not smart enough to figure this all out, yet.
I would bet that they used (OEM) the same valve in the Mod I model?
As I understand it, the Mod I model was very hard to pumps after a certain point,
I have not seen much info on the Mod I and the pump results for 10 shots or so, in 22 cal,
along with the lack of shooting/pump results being posted by other members,
who have these air rifles etc.
Back to the drawing board.............
Yours thoughts and suggestions...
Tia,
Don
I've posted some numbers a while ago that might also be in my airgun notebook regarding the DF I up to 16 pumps if memory serves. 3-8 pumps is the manufacturers pump instruction for the DF I. I remember that fps did increase over 8 pumps and then levelled out somewhere in the teens. I can look it up or redo the test if that would help your DF II research.
-
SB
Thanks for the offer,
but I am shooting a 22 cal and your are shooting a 17 cal,
IMHO, I don't think that the results/info would be the same as a 22 cal,
just SWAG on my part, I don't know for sure.
I am hoping that someone will join the party and provide some 22 cal info/results etc.
I just finished a 15 shoot/pump test with the Storm Rider OEM hammer spring,
coming up shortly, got to get something to eat,
my stomach thinks my throat has been cut, as BF was at 600 A.......LOL
Thanks,
Don
-
Here is another pump test
(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
2 complete turns on pump rod head.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E)
1 pump = 259 fps
2 pumps= 383 fps
3 pumps= 465 fps
4 pumps= 521 fps
5 pumps= 567 fps
6 pumps= 600 fps
7 pumps= 623 fps
8 pumps= 643 fps
9 pumps= 662 fps
10 pumps= 679 fps
11 pumps= 683 fps
12 pumps= 712 fps
13 pumps= 718 fps
14 pumps= 721 fps
15 pumps= 728 fps
No remaining air in valve after any shot.
E-1 test
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle,
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these 3 pump tests for,
Oiled =1 pump = 269 fps
Oiled =5 pumps = 574 fps
Oiled =10 pumps = 692 fps
Oiled =15 pumps = 741 fps
Why the difference?, IMHO, I think that the "O" rings on the pump head are getting damaged with all the disassembly I have been doing, and not sealing correctly.
Summary of all the tests
Test A B C D E E-1
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-259-269
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383-----
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465-----
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521-----
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600-----
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623-----
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643-----
9 pumps= 652-561-688-659-662-----
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683-----
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712-----
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718-----
14 pumps= 680----------------721-----
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741
there was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.
(A Test)
Here is the full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length,14 gr Crosman ammo
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed. A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(C Test)
I just finished the 1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(D TEST)
I just finished the 1 >15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
E-1 test
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests.
Your thoughts and or suggestions................
Tia,
Don
-
Wow, that's a full 15 pumps and well over 700 fps! Both goals accomplished! Bravo, Don! Thanks for bringing us along for the ride!
-
SB
Thanks
I am very interested in the E-1 results,
it's hard to believe that a little lube upper the fps, that much.
I'll go over the "O" rings with the high powered Lupe and check them out.
I have a couple of areas I will explore and test,
Adjust the pump head out to the maximum length possible, another .130+ ",
without contacting the valve head. That should give me another 25 fps, maybe?
Lighter hammer with the SR hammer spring, or Flat wire spring weight around 6-8#'s.
Change pellet weights to a slightly heavier 18-20gr weights.
Change valve internal dimensions, with good flat sealing areas.
Make a SSG for fine tuning.
Then adjust everything to the best accuracy possible, after checking the bbl,
and with a new crown on the bbl end and chamber check.
Then figure out how to mount it on my Ebike, and have fun with a go anywhere rifle.
I am hopeful that other members with these types of DF rifles will help out
and post their results for more information and possible increase, if you want it,
to get the best out of your DF II rifle.
Thanks,
Don
-
When you reduce hammer weight and hammer spring weight, you get?............ :o
Your thoughts or suggestions ..........
Tia,
Don
-
When you reduce hammer weight and hammer spring weight, you get?............ :o
Your thoughts or suggestions ..........
Tia,
Don
I would expect a softer strike with less spring and weight.
-
Air left over in the valve.... sometimes even enough for a second shoot.
However, this can be useful in another way....
If you hit your goal with pressure remaining in the valve, it will take less pumps to get back to full pressure.
-
If the previous measurements were correct, the best bet for more power may be opening up the transfer ports to 80% of .22 (I think they are presently closer to 80% of .177?). The graph of fps increase vs pumps is impressively smooth already and you indicated getting consistent fps readings when repeating tests in the same configuration already as well.
-
When you reduce hammer weight and hammer spring weight, you get?............ :o
Your thoughts or suggestions ..........
Tia,
Don
It is blessed with a long hammer stroke and spring. May be its stormrider origins. Lots of options to get a strong hammer strike if you had retained air. For comparison the hammer stroke of a 392 is .781 and the crossman 1322 is only about .625.
-
When you reduce hammer weight and hammer spring weight, you get this............ :o
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr
and spring weight of 9-10 #'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Fat wire,
14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(F)
1 pump = 269 fps
2 pumps= 393 fps
3 pumps= 452 fps
4 pumps= 479 fps
5 pumps= 538 fps
6 pumps= 623 fps
7 pumps= 646 fps
8 pumps= 652 fps
9 pumps= 708 fps
10 pumps= 728 fps
11 pumps= 744 fps
12 pumps= 770 fps
13 thru 15 pumps 770 fps or less
No remaining air in valve after any shot.
OEM Hammer weight of 875gr x 1.695" long, .735" Dia,
New Alum hammer weight of 533gr x 1.715" long, .740" Dia
Summary of all the tests
Test A B C D E E-1 F
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-259-269-269
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652
9 pumps= 652-561-688-659-662------708
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770
14 pumps= 680----------------721------770
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741-770
there was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.
The valve in the Storm Rider is over an inch shorter, same Dia inside and out,
but does have the same tapered poppet and seat (as DFII) and NO top air seal,
.180" Dia air inlet hole, same threads.
I have a new SR valve coming from Wes and will adapt it to the DF II rifle,
It will have a larger internal volume than the OEM valve.
Your thoughts and suggestions........
Tia,
Don
-
Firewalker (David) got more power with a lighter hammer on his HPA converted Chaser. Could you duplicate that hammer? I have wanted to test one with the Stormrider or Chaser hammer springs.
I think Firewalker also broke some stuff while testing the light hammer.
-
Ok Guys,
Hard to believe.......... :o
I double checked everything, and I still don't believe these results/information,
even thou I tested it 3 times.............with these averages.
What would happen with all air passage ways opened to .155", with no other changes?
I think, I am done............ ;) I met my goal of +750 fps for 10 pumps.
(G)
1 pump = 262 fps
2 pumps= 377 fps
3 pumps= 390 fps
4 pumps= 436 fps
5 pumps= 488 fps
6 pumps= 498 fps
7 pumps= 639 fps
8 pumps= 754 fps
9 pumps= 810 fps
10 pumps= 833 fps
11 thru 15 pumps= 833 fps or less
No remaining air in valve after any shot.
OEM Hammer weight of 875gr x 1.695" long, .735" Dia,
New Alum hammer weight of 533gr x 1.715" long, .740" Dia
Summary of all the tests
Test A B C D E E-1 F G
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-259-269-269-262
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393-377
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452-390
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479-436
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538-488
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623-498
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646-639
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652-754
9 pumps= 652-561-688-659-662------708-810
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728-833
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744-833
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770-833
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770-833
14 pumps= 680----------------721------770-833
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741-770-833
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.
(A Test)
Here is the full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length,14 gr Crosman ammo
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed. A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(C Test)
I just finished the 1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(D TEST)
I just finished the 1 >15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
E-1 test
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests.
F Test
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr
and Hammer spring weight of 9-10#'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Flat wire,
14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
G test
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
Your thoughts and or suggestions................
Tia,
Don
-
Those gains at high pumps are impressive! This is begging for a 25 cal barrel/receiver combo from Wes. I look forward to seeing what happens if/when you make a custom valve and/or piston.
-
QUOTE: All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
NvReloader, Curious why you stopped at .145???
I finally got around to do some testing, and discovered that my stockDragonfly2 saw no gains or losses with the softer Stormrider hammer spring. The bolt pulls back so much easier though.
I made the mistake (again) of oiling with silicone oil, and realized my mistake when the pumping got harder & harder. A few drops of Mobil1 on the pump smoothed things out once again. I wonder how many Dragonfly's have been returned because of pumping issues caused by the wrong lube? Keep the Silicone oil away from these pumpers.
I have a new valve coming, and plan on opening everything up to .161. Will try then with both hammer springs too.
Fun guns for sure, just need to quiet down the noisy (klack! Klack!) pump after all this.
(p.s. Pyramyd Air has a service repair kit available, and its not $3000!)
-
HPP
The reason for using the .145" reamer was, with the slightly different air ways being from
.134" to .136" in diameter, the .145" reamer was the closest to the OEM hole size I had on hand
without ordering a .138/140" size.
I have .1562" reamer that I may try for the next step, I like where this DF II is at now,
have been plinking a lot, have started on the 3rd can of Crosmans, so I think
it is broke in now.
As for the klackity Klack sound I believe that it is coming from the center pivot point,
there is approximately 1/8" of play there, which is (I THINK), a safety zone for the
depth of stroke during the handle lockup etc.
There is also a quarter circle cam/roller setup cut into the steel hump handle shank,
I can't see any movement on mine. What it does? I don't know yet.
Does your DF II have this cam also?
Do not fast pump this rifle, it likes a slow rate of pumping effort,
I use a 3 second count per pump stroke.
What cal are you shooting? What was the average for a 10 pump test?
As for lube, I Ballistol for everything up stream of the pump head "o" rings.
And I found out that keeping the foam oiler ring well oiled helps the FPS out,
as you can see in test E-1 results.
When I got my refurb rifle, it was very hard to pump, I used Ballistal and then it loosen up.
When fully cock the pump handle, at maximum stroke OPEN, can you see the pump head "O" ring?
On mine, I could see about half of the "O" ring showing in the bottom of the slot,
just ahead of the air inlet hole.
Where did you find a valve for the DFII?
Thanks,
Don
QUOTE: All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet. NvReloader, Curious why you stopped at .145???
I finally got around to do some testing, and discovered that my stockDragonfly2 saw no gains or losses with the softer Stormrider hammer spring. The bolt pulls back so much easier though.
I made the mistake (again) of oiling with silicone oil, and realized my mistake when the pumping got harder & harder. A few drops of Mobil1 on the pump smoothed things out once again. I wonder how many Dragonfly's have been returned because of pumping issues caused by the wrong lube? Keep the Silicone oil away from these pumpers.
I have a new valve coming, and plan on opening everything up to .161. Will try then with both hammer springs too.
Fun guns for sure, just need to quiet down the noisy (klack! Klack!) pump after all this.
(p.s. Pyramyd Air has a service repair kit available, and its not $3000!)
-
Ok Guys
Thanks for the information,
Here is some information on this DFY II,
BBl overall length = 22-5/8" = 22 cal,
Pressure tube dimensions = .875" O/S Dia, .745 I/S dia,
Pump rod stroke depth = 6.940" = Maximum stroke depth, head Dia = .730",
with a "O" ring seal = .112" thick x I/S Dia = .527", O/S Dia =.750",
Inside valve dimensions = .390" I/S Dia x 2.120" long, inlet hole .102"
Hammer weight = 876 grains, with 1.100' stroke
Poppet stem protrusion = .180"
PSI Pumper
Can you share with me the formula or a site that has this CC capacity's for what you were talking about.
I found a site and entered my info and came up with 11.73 CI for the volume
of the tube for compression = 6.940" stroke x .745" dia, just don't look right.
Thanks All,
Don
I will try.
Volume of a cylinder: pi x R2 x stroke
So 3.1416 x .372 x .372 x 6.940 = 3.025 cubic inches. Converted to cc = 49.6 cc per pump.
To get the pressure in the valve per pump : 49.6 divided by valve internal volume = pressure in bar.
So if we use 4.5 cc as the valve size.
49.6 /4.5 = 11.02 bar.
To convert bar to psi multiply by 14.50377.
11.02 x 14.50377 = 160 psi per pump.
160 psi would be at 100 percent pumping efficiency but because of headspace and cooling of the pumped air 90% is about the best it can be. 160 x .9 = 144 psi per pump.
So at 12 pumps: 144 x 12 = 1725 psi.
From the measurements of your valve hole I only got 4.15 cc . The internal parts are usually about 1 cc.
I think you are closer to 3 cc than 4.5 now.
I am impressed with the power you are making now. The headspace must be fairly small now but could be improved.
For reference I have a 392 with a 4.5 cc valve. At 10 pumps the pressure is 1685 psi, using the 14.3 grain crosman pellets 875 fps.
The transfer port is .170
Not sure why the poppet stem on the DF2 only protrudes .187 out from the valve. Is there a way to change that to .350 ? Having to work with the hammer spring to stop the hammer from bottoming out ain’t good.
Good luck
Charles
-
Psipumper
THANK YOU for the volume of cylinder info,
I missed it, now I have some home work to do....been a very long time......LOL
The spec's on the top and bottom poppet/seals are as follows,
Top valve seal = .685" long x.293" dia with a rear step down of .232" Dia x .188" long
for spring seat, with a 30* taper x.200" long, (tapered seal area)
Bottom poppet = .620" long x.315" dia with a .234" dia step down .405" long for spring seat,
tapered seal area, valve stem dia = .115" x .180" stem protrusion length.
All of these valve parts and the spring inside a .390" dia x 2.120" volume space,
kind'a cramped inside there.
I am surprised it works as well as it does.
I have a new complete valve coming, so I can compare and then I'll open the inside of the valve as wide as possible, and change the top and bottom poppet seats to a square flat design,
to get away from the tapered seat now used, easier to open and seal etc.
Since I have a new valve, I'll open the air passages to .1562" and do another 15 pump test,
I have also lengthened the pump rod stroke to the maximum distance and NOT block the air intake hole.
The last test "G" was the end results.
When you say XYZ cc valve, do you mean internal volume?
Taking careful measurements to see if I can get the hammer resting off the end of the valve,
I DON"T like having a cocked/loaded muzzle, waving around while cocking,
I'll have to measure the standing rest distance of the hammer face to valve rear face and stem protrusion etc.
Thanks,
Your thoughts and suggestions........
Don
-
HPP
Thanks,
Have a new complete valve coming.......... ;) 8)
Don
-
Don
Yes , the internal volume of the assembled valve. I ran the numbers for your.390x 2.120 valve hole and got .25325 cu. Inches. Multiplied that by 16.38706 to convert it to cc.
4.15 cc. I estimated the internal parts to be about 1.1cc, which is what crosman pumpers average.
4.15 - 1 = about 3cc
To measure the internal valve part volume:
I fill a 10ml syringe to 7 with water and drop the parts in except for the poppet and then lower the head of the poppet down into the water. The new water level in the syringe is the volume of the valve internals .
Of note here is one ml is the same as 1 cc so no conversion from ml to cc is required.
Don , you could put a small dab of modeling clay a few millimeters thick on the bottom of the flat top piston and then pump the gun once and see how thin it squeezes out to. I know you have it adjusted out as far as you can with the air hole but would be good to know.
Perhaps the crosman Maurauder poppet could be fitted. I think the stem is .124 on it so reaming the valve to .125 required. 1.093 from sealing surface to end.
What material is the valve made from ?
-
Hi Charles
The valve is made from Alum, the valve seat/poppet are a hard plastic material,
unk what type, I do have some Peek rod I can use?
Go to page #17, post#332, and there is a photo of the valve and parts etc.
https://ibb.co/8b8nZD7
I was aware of the clay trick, now that I have the pump rod head out as long as possible,
I'll see just what is the remaining distance, the next time I tear her apart..
I do know, that when I pump to 10 pumps, I get approximately .025 - .030" of set back from the pump rod due to the contained pressure from pumping, So I due have that as an added safety amount, above the valve head.
I hunt up a 10cc syringe and check the top/bottom parts to see the approx volume etc.
Thank you,
Don
-
This is backtracking, but it's unclear to me whether you are using ballistol on the foam pad. I would expect dieseling potentially from that approach if not detonation. Maybe the oring and foam pad are silicone oiled?
When you repeat the process of opening up the passageways, would you take a few pictures of the steps, including also a step of increasing from 1 to 2 turns? The info here is so thorough, Don, that I suspect a guide with pictures would be a long lasting resource for the airgun pumping DF community!
-
Also backtracking, I am a little concerned about the pattern of fps increase vs pump number. There are a couple pumps that yield little increase followed by a pump yielding a large increase. This happens a couple times over the G test. I am not sure what is going on there and am concerned that the slow build to a huge push might stress and break something. Though again, I cannot explain what is going on there so it is speculation. While less powerful, the tests with a smoother curve of fps increase vs pump number seem safer to me.
-
SB
I use Ballistol on all the pump rod joints and on each end of the pump rod,
I noticed there is some rubbing on the Black finish caused by the pressure during pumping.
The foam ring also has Ballistol on it, to reduce the friction/rubbing areas of the pump rod during it's operation.
I would believe that the "O" will keep the lubes separated during pumping action.
I use Silicone oil on the pump rod head "O" ring only, via this method,
I slowly open up the pump handle to just before the "O" gets to the air breathing hole in the pressure tube,
I put 1-2 drops of Silicone oil over the air hole, then open the pump handle to the fullest extent,
by opening the handle, the silicone oil is sucked inside the pressure tube, once the "O" ring passes by.
As for the increasing/decreasing of the pump rod head, I use a 17mm open end wrench in the slot of the pump rod,
just fits nicely, then use a 13mm open end wrench to loosen the lock nut under the pump rod head.
then I wrap the pump rod head w/"O" ring with a HD nylon strap, and use water pump pliers to grab the pump head
it appears to be locktited/sealed and loosen the head 1 full turn and check depth.
Note: Remove the "O" RING when checking the depth of the pump rod, it's easier to adjust etc.
Note: I have very lightly marked the pump rod shank with a needles point, right at the bottom of the "U" of the slot
cut into the pressure tube, just upstream from the air inlet hole.
Completely close the pump handle, then very carefully lift the pump handle until it is free moving,
BUT the pump rod is still LOCKED DOWN at it's maximum depth.
Mark the pump rod at this "U" point. There will be about 1/2" of space between the locked down pump rod
and free handle space.
This is the reference point for pump rod depth measurements, be as accurate as possible when marking.
Also note:
When pumping, the pressure from the pumped air will cause the pump rod to be pushed away from the
valve inlet flat face, by .020" - .030" by the retained pressure from pumping.
DO NOT ADJUST FOR THIS SLIGHT AMOUNT OF FREE SPACE,
leave it alone for safety on contacting the valve face.
As for the ODD Ball fps readings, there are some errors, and I could not correct them as the modify time ran out....... :( ::)
I went back and checked my log book, on the B test = 9 pumps should be 651 fps,
(fat finger mistake).
I also noticed some of these large fps jumps, the only thing I can think of is the INTERNAL Volume of the valve,
something has to be going on there, I have have checked all readings
and they are as shot/recorded etc.
I am very careful noting the number of pumps etc, and another item MIGHT be the Crosman ammo,
it is not the most uniform there is.....LOL I will not waste good ammo for testing,
but will finish up with a good ammo comparison, I hope.
I'll attempt photo's on the next tear down, BUT DON"T HOLD YOUR BREATH, photo's are my downfall here. :(
Thanks,
Your thoughts and suggestions............
Don
-
Well I have learned alot, and have a.22 DF2 and 1 will not be until late fall I get the urge to turn a wrench for fun, so I avoid it now. But will follow the steps that count and do this mod on mine and get some nice photos to boot.
-
I got bored, can't ride my bike, windy again.
So the DF II got hit again, with 1 change,
all air passageways got opened to .1562" and burrs cleaned up.
Note: This is the largest bbl hole diameter that can be used, as the distance between the "O" seals on the bbl, anything larger will require a bbl set back and new "O" ring grooves cut.
I'll have to check the valve seats and "O" rings, as I was having funny pumps results until I finished about 10 shots, then everything settled down and progressed OK.
Low fps results with the valve opened up, don't know why? But, better shot curve results,
seems to be very uniform? Even thou I forgot to lube everything before shooting. ::)
(H)
1 pump = 252 fps
2 pumps= 305 fps
3 pumps= 383 fps
4 pumps= 416 fps
5 pumps= 449 fps
6 pumps= 524 fps
7 pumps= 567 fps
8 pumps= 600 fps
9 pumps= 633 fps
10 pumps= 690 fps
11 pumps= 711 fps
12 pumps= 754 fps
13 pumps= 801 fps
14/15 pumps = 801fps
H test
Same pump tests as all the others, only item changed was,
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed).
Summary of all the tests
Test A B C D E E-1 F G H
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-259-269-269-262--252
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393-377--305
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452-390--383
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479-436--416
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538-488--449
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623-498--524
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646-639--567
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652-754--600
9 pumps= 652-651-688-659-662------708-810--633
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728-833-690
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744-833-711
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770-833-754
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770-833-801
14 pumps= 680----------------721------770-833-801
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741-770-833-801
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.
(A Test)
Here is the full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length,14 gr Crosman ammo
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed. A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(C Test)
I just finished the 1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(D Test)
I just finished the 1 >15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E-1 Test)
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests.
(F Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr
and Hammer spring weight of 9-10#'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Flat wire,
25 coils, 14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(G Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(H Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
Your thoughts and or suggestions................
Tia,
Don
-
This just keeps getting more curious! The lower fps with a nicer shot curve are additional clues to consider. Its as if at certain pump numbers, not all the pressure is released and then subsequent pump numbers do get that air out. Hmmm... might not be right... still waking up. Wondering if relubing will boost those numbers back up. Guessing the gun is happier with that new shot curve. [chuckling] Imagining the gun has less indigestion and better breathing now. So impressive.
Thanks for the instructions on the pump head adjustment and lubing. Most helpful!
-
SB
I swear this pumper is haunted, there is no rime and reason, IMHO why it changes from
the low end to the high end (fps wise), with such little changes etc.
I also open the up the air inlet valve end to .1562" along with all the other air passages.
Maybe I went too far? If the air inlet makes that much difference,
I have to use a set screw and bush the .1562" hole back to .100" dia,
one thing about using a set screw, as I can change them to whatever dia I want/need.
I'll check the seat and make sure it it perfect with no burrs etc.
I like the lower end fps steps, but it is missing on the high end fps somewhat.
I really liked the G test results, but I am not above testing to see other results.
Thanks,
Your thoughts or suggestions,
Don
-
Hi Don,
Regarding Trial H where the velocity dropped despite having enlarged the porting, a few possibilities and questions come to mind:
1. In the venerable Crosman 13xx platform, one observation is that increasing the porting helps the .22 cal but hurts the .177 cal. The difference is believed to be related to the early part of the firing cycle when the pressure pulse first hits the back of the pellet...that the larger porting represents a larger volume to be pressurized between the valve seat and the pellet, thus the initial pressure hitting the skirt is somewhat diminished. A pumper's valve volume being rather small, after all. Now I realize your Dragonfly is a .22 cal so this theory may not apply. Or it may indeed apply given other differences between the platforms.
The biggest clue is that Trial G topped out at only 10 pumps. After you enlarged the porting, the velocity didn't top out until 13 pumps. And of course it was slower at 13 pumps than it had previously been at 9 pumps...which suggests maybe you were having to bring the valve up to a higher pressure in order to compensate for an otherwise diminished initial pressure slapping the pellet in the behind. Or it could mean that something happened which made pumping less effective, something completely unrelated to having changed the porting.
2. Does "all air passageways opened to 0.156" include the valve throat? Moving up from 0.145in to 0.156" represents an area increase of almost 16%, meaning the valve is now nontrivially harder to knock open. Perhaps even more if your 0.156" figure is an adjusted figure that represents the equivalent cross-section after accounting for the area occupied by the stem. The valve is soaking up more of the hammer's energy to unseat the poppet, generating less lift, and therefore delivering less of an early kick in the pants to the pellet to get it moving. Granted I do notice you have confirmed the valve is not retaining air which means there is definitely plenty of dwell, but the velocity loss may have less to do with dwell than it does lift.
3. This last idea / possibility is more mundane than the first two. Maybe something subtle changed in the course of reassembling after enlarging the porting. The usual suspect would be a slightly different alignment of the valve exhaust port and the barrel port. Maybe a transfer port seal compressing differently and slightly modifying the effective cross-sectional area for airflow. But it could be almost anything. The preferred approach to check would be to step back to Trial G and make sure its results are repeatable, then re-do Trial H. Of course it's not particularly feasible to put metal back so second best would be to simply tear down and go through the motions of reassembling very carefully and retest Trial H to see if you get a different result.
That's all I've got! Frankly I'm not particularly optimistic that the solution is contained within one of these three items but maybe we'll get lucky or at least help give rise to some other ideas.
-
Ok Guys
I re shot this H test again, and these are the results,
H-1
1 pump = 236 fps
2 pumps= 367fps
3 pumps= 449 fps
4 pumps= 495fps
5 pumps= 511fps
6 pumps= 574fps
7 pumps= 597fps
8 pumps= 613fps
9 pumps= 757fps
10 pumps= 813fps
11 pumps= 856fps
12 pumps= 869fps
13/14/15 pumps = 869fps or less
H - 1 test
Same pump tests as all the others, only item changed was,
Oiled the pump rod and head, this was pumped to 10 pumps and left over night,
shot this and recorded 705 fps, may have a leak?.
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed).
Summary of all the tests
Test A B C D E E-1 F G H H-1
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-259-269-269-262--252-236
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393-377--305-367
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452-390--383-449
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479-436--416-495
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538-488--449-511
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623-498--524-574
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646-639--567-597
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652-754--600-613
9 pumps= 652-651-688-659-662------708-810--633-757
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728-833-690-813
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744-833-711-856
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770-833-754-869
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770-833-801
14 pumps= 680----------------721------770-833-801
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741-770-833-801
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.
(A Test)
Here is the full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length,14 gr Crosman ammo
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed. A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(C Test)
I just finished the 1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(D Test)
I just finished the 1 >15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E-1 Test)
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests.
(F Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr
and Hammer spring weight of 9-10#'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Flat wire,
25 coils, 14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(G Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(H Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(H - 1 test)
Same pump tests as all the others, only item changed was,
Oiled the pump rod and head, also was pumped to 10 pumps and left over night,
shot this and recorded 705 fps, may have a leak. 14gr Crosman ammo.
Note: No "O" rings have been changed, all OEM thru all these tests.......
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed).
Your thoughts and or suggestions................
Tia,
Don
-
Very good, sounds like you found the source.
When I said:
“ Or it could mean that something happened which made pumping less effective, something completely unrelated to having changed the porting. ”
If I make enough guesses, one of them is bound to hit. Kinda like the strategy of psychics and clairvoyants.;D
-
Woohoo, Don! 869? Did you think it possible?! Are you also interested in repeat tests as it settles in? Curious how those bumps in fps increase will or won't smooth out as a curve (fps increase vs # pumps).
-
Hi Jason
Thank you, LOL.................... ;)
I can't believe that oiling/lubing these parts make that much difference, JDLR..........?
This 22 caliber valve internal dimensions are approximately = .390" I/S Dia x 2.120" long,
inlet hole .102" Dia, plus the tapered ends for the top/bottom seal/poppet seats, 2.50 CI.
The total volume of these valve parts is approx 1.04 CI, not including the spring,
so there is not much air volume inside this valve, if I have figured it right.
See this photo of this part,
Go to page #17, post #332, and there is a photo of the valve and parts etc.
https://ibb.co/8b8nZD7
Another item I don't like, is the tapered seats at the top inlet valve hole and the poppet
also has tapered seats. This can't be helping the efficiency of this valve.
Since I have a new valve coming, I'll see if I can make flat faced valve seats for both ends,
should be easier opening and sealing etc.
When I opened all air passage ways, only these parts were opened up,
bbl hole,
action hole,
brass TP hole,
valve tp hole.
I did not touch any thing else.
I turn a brass rod the exactly fit the hole of every part,
then use these rods to make sure that the part is clamped in the proper relationship
to the reamer angle etc.
Would bushing the air inlet valve hole on the pump side back to .102" and valve TP hole to
.136" be a good start?
And I can also set the bbl back and make a new chamber etc,
as the OEM "O" ring spacing limits the transfer hole to .1562" max in this 22 cal bbl,
without cutting into the hole etc.
All these OEM "O" rings are well used and probably has minor nicks etc after 10+ tear downs,
all new "O" rings will be installed on the final build.
Thank you for your time and trouble, Jason.
It is greatly appreciated.
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Don
-
SB
I had a faint Idea that a little more could possibly be obtained.
I am happy thou, BUT curiosity grabbed me and won't let go.............LOL.
There will be more follow up tests, this lubing and fps increases JDLR, in mho.
I think this OEM valve is the major hiccup?????
Jason is a lot smarter on this stuff than I am, I am still learning, I hope.
With good new "O" rings, I am hoping it will settle down to a good average.
I'll take 800 fps all day long, and I can change to a lower level if needed,
via pumping, which I can't do with my PCP's as easily.
On to some heavier weight pellets, I can't wait to try out the NOE WC -vs- Sage bunnies.
Tia,
Don
-
I wonder if the oil helps reduce the charge temperature. If the "compression chamber" gets hot, it will build pressure faster, but then let off as it cools.
-
I got a 30fps gain with 19g pellets after oiling the pump tube (behind the o-ring).
Interesting that the passages are sized (stock) more for .177. Curious to know what a .177 is seeing for fps...
A valve with more volume might get this pumper even more power, but how many more pumps would that require?
Next, try 20 pumps?
-
SB
I had a faint Idea that a little more could possibly be obtained.
I am happy thou, BUT curiosity grabbed me and won't let go.............LOL.
There will be more follow up tests, this lubing and fps increases JDLR, in mho.
I think this OEM valve is the major hiccup?????
Jason is a lot smarter on this stuff than I am, I am still learning, I hope.
With good new "O" rings, I am hoping it will settle down to a good average.
I'll take 800 fps all day long, and I can change to a lower level if needed,
via pumping, which I can't do with my PCP's as easily.
On to some heavier weight pellets, I can't wait to try out the NOE WC -vs- Sage bunnies.
Tia,
Don
[laughing] Bunnies beware! The sting of the dragonfly is swift and fatal!
-
I got a 30fps gain with 19g pellets after oiling the pump tube (behind the o-ring).
Interesting that the passages are sized (stock) more for .177. Curious to know what a .177 is seeing for fps...
A valve with more volume might get this pumper even more power, but how many more pumps would that require?
Next, try 20 pumps?
Here are some mps numbers from a recent comparison between two hammer springs (stayed with stock). Will do a before lube after lube test tonight if able. Mine is a DF I in .177.
-
SB
LOL.......
I hope so, not too sure about this DFII, sometimes, she is throwing out some curveballs,
with a couple inside sliders thrown in for good measure.
But, I am hard on her trail....... ;)
Once the new valve gets here, I can do some careful measurements and planning
on the inlet and poppet seals. I just have to know........... ;)
Tia,
Don
[laughing] Bunnies beware! The sting of the dragonfly is swift and fatal!
-
Regarding the valve volume, you may want to search up Bob’s guidance on the sweet spot for pumpers. If memory serves, it’s somewhere in the range of 1/3 to 1/2 of the barrel volume. So for example if the .22 barrel is 20in long, its volume is about 0.74ci. Meaning a valve whose volume is larger than about 0.37ci is running hard into the wall of diminishing returns. You indicated the current valve is closer to 1.04ci so it’s already quite large. So installing an even larger valve…well it might be fun and educational to see how it turns out, but not so much for casual everyday use because of all the pumping necessary to adequately pressurize it.
-
Here's the DF I .177 numbers. I redid pump numbers 6 and 7 on the lube again! third test, thinking I didn't fully extend the arm when pumping. The redo numbers suggest I was correct in that regard. Overall, a 10 to 20 fps increase on most pumps from lubing.
Also, I remember getting a couple lighter hammer springs after seeing the home depot spring (stronger than stock) do nothing. The power output from the lighter springs didn't do much good, the stock spring was better across the pumps. Wish I took notes but don't see any. Might have been bad enough I didn't write it diwn, though maybe I didnkt have the notebook.
Regarding fliers, deburring made a big difference but I'm sure you did that, Don!
-
Here's the DF I .177 numbers. I redid pump numbers 6 and 7 on the lube again! third test, thinking I didn't fully extend the arm when pumping. The redo numbers suggest I was correct in that regard. Overall, a 10 to 20 fps increase on most pumps from lubing.
Also, I remember getting a couple lighter hammer springs after seeing the home depot spring (stronger than stock) do nothing. The power output from the lighter springs didn't do much good, the stock spring was better across the pumps. Wish I took notes but don't see any. Might have been bad enough I didn't write it diwn, though maybe I didnkt have the notebook.
Regarding fliers, deburring made a big difference but I'm sure you did that, Don!
Am I reading this wrong? Less than 300fps? Is this in mps?
-
It's mps. Thought I mentioned that. Might have been an earlier post.
-
HPP
Thanks for that info, 8)
If you guys that have these DF I & II models in either calibers are interested in reading
about some info and there is a couple of photo's, you may want to check this out:
https://airgunwarriors.com/community/?wpfs=dragonfly+&wpfin=entire-posts&wpfd=0&wpfob=relevancy&wpfo=desc
HtH's
Don
-
Hey Guys
Question,
You have an air inlet valve hole of .140.0" and one at 156.2",
would they produce/have the same pressure, same number of pumps,
when pumped with the same air volume, into the same sized valve volume?
Would the air Ventry effect build/store more internal volume with the .140" hole
as compared to the 156" hole?
This is in ref to tests G & H,
Summary of all the tests, so far.
Test G H ***
1 pump = 262--252 -10fps
2 pumps= 377--305 -72fps
3 pumps= 390--383 -7 fps
4 pumps= 436--416 -20fps
5 pumps= 488--449 -39fps
6 pumps= 498--524 +74fps
7 pumps= 639--567 -72fps
8 pumps= 754--600 -154fps
9 pumps= 810--633 -177fps
10 pumps= 833-690* -143fps
11 pumps= 833-711 -122fps
12 pumps= 833-754 -79fps
13 pumps= 770-833
14 pumps= 770-833
15 pumps= 770-833
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.
* Target level for 10 pumps @ 800 fps.
*** Difference between H to G, in fps
G test was with the .145.0" dia valve air inlet hole, no other changes.
H test was with the .156.2" dia valve air inlet hole, no other changes
Going by the FPS results, I would believe it to be true..........?
There is a 11.2" dia difference between the hole size,
156.2 + 11.4 = .167.6" = 4.25mm metric,
if the next hole size was opened up to 11/64" = .171.9",
would that bring the fps up to around 800 fps + at 10 pumps?
(G Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was,
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed).
(H Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was,
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed).
Having a hard time wrapping my head around this stuff,
as I don't really know what I am doing................... ::)
Thanks All,
Your thoughts and suggestions.................
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Summary of all the tests
Test A B C D E E-1 F G H H-1
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-259-269-269-262--252-236
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393-377--305-367
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452-390--383-449
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479-436--416-495
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538-488--449-511
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623-498--524-574
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646-639--567-597
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652-754--600-613
9 pumps= 652-651-688-659-662------708-810--633-757
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728-833-690-813
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744-833-711-856
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770-833-754-869
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770-833-801
14 pumps= 680----------------721------770-833-801
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741-770-833-801
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.
(A Test)
Here is the full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length,14 gr Crosman ammo
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed. A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(C Test)
I just finished the 1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(D Test)
I just finished the 1 >15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E-1 Test)
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests.
(F Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr
and Hammer spring weight of 9-10#'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Flat wire,
25 coils, 14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(G Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(H Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
-
Is the air inlet hole you are referring to the hole where the air enters the valve from the pumping?
-
Thanks Jason
I'll get back to you in a little bit,.......... ;)
I am attempting to figure out this volume stuff,
I keep getting 2 different results,
I know I am doing something wrong, just have to find out what/where.
Figuring this spring volume, is next to impossible, so I am going to forget it,
as it cannot be much volume..
I am using this calculator to figure everything,
https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/cylinder-volume (https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/cylinder-volume)
Tia,
Don
Regarding the valve volume, you may want to search up Bob’s guidance on the sweet spot for pumpers. If memory serves, it’s somewhere in the range of 1/3 to 1/2 of the barrel volume. So for example if the .22 barrel is 20in long, its volume is about 0.74ci. Meaning a valve whose volume is larger than about 0.37ci is running hard into the wall of diminishing returns. You indicated the current valve is closer to 1.04ci so it’s already quite large. So installing an even larger valve…well it might be fun and educational to see how it turns out, but not so much for casual everyday use because of all the pumping necessary to adequately pressurize it.
-
Hi Charles
Yes, this where the pumped air flows thru to get inside the valve storage area.
Tia,
Don
Is the air inlet hole you are referring to the hole where the air enters the valve from the pumping?
-
Hi Charles
Yes, this where the pumped air flows thru to get inside the valve storage area.
Tia,
Don
Is the air inlet hole you are referring to the hole where the air enters the valve from the pumping?
That hole needs to be small. The volume of the hole adds headspace and reduces the amount going into the valve. I reduce the size to 1 mm and it works in my pumpers.
-
JD
Maybe the oil film is creating a better seal between the cylinder wall and "O" ring?
I can't explain it, both times I have tested it, the oiled "O" rings produce high fps readings.
And I have read where this occurrence is happening with other shooters.
Tia,
Don
I wonder if the oil helps reduce the charge temperature. If the "compression chamber" gets hot, it will build pressure faster, but then let off as it cools.
-
Hi Charles
Thanks for the info.
I am NOT doubting you, just having a hard time believing that .011" differences,
causes so much variance in the fps...........between those 2 tests.
I'll find out when my new valve gets here,
as I can bush the inlet hole and start with the .140.0" hole diameter,
and do the same test again, with the old valve.
Thank you for the info, still attempting to wrap my head around it.
Don
Hi Charles
Yes, this where the pumped air flows thru to get inside the valve storage area.
Tia, Don
Is the air inlet hole you are referring to the hole where the air enters the valve from the pumping?
That hole needs to be small. The volume of the hole adds headspace and reduces the amount going into the valve. I reduce the size to 1 mm and it works in my pumpers.
-
OK guys
Here are some of the spec's of the OEM (Service replacement parts package)
Valve spring = 1.590" long x .290" Dia x 12 coils x .024" Dia wire = 3.5#'s weight,
Top Valve seal = .683" long x .293" Dia w/ a 30* tapered sealing cone =
.170" long w/.100 flat point, also has a .232" x .192" step down shank
to fit inside the valve spring end, no compressed BB inlet hole filter.
Bottom Valve seal =.608" long x .316" Dia x with a step down = .232" Dia x 390" long,
to fit inside the spring end and also has a .157" x .394" deep hole to fit the Brass sealing
head and valve stem that is .115" dia x .930" long,
Brass sealing part = .478" long x .254" dia 30* tapered cone =.085 thick = .110" dia hole
the valve stem fits inside this Brass part.
3 - "O" rings = .112" thick x .511" I/S dia x .740" O/S dia x 2 "O" rings for the valve seals,
1 - "O" ring = .072" thick x .525" I/s dia x .664" O/S dia for the inside valve seal.
Valve body = 2.517" long x .741" dia on top and .738" bottom half, 16 x 1 mm threads,
top air inlet hole = .058" dia, valve exit hole = .140" dia, valve stem hole = .117" dia,
Top "O" ring groove =.533" I/S dia x .125" wide round groove channel,
Bottom "O" ring groove =.523" dia x .128" wide, square cut channel.
Top I/S dim = 1.170" x .395" dia hole,
Bottom = .635" long tapered cone x .496" dia,
valve throat = .190" dia x .125" long,
has recess "O" ring seat = .397" dia x .065" deep.
TP seal =.390" dia x .293" tall x .140" air hole x w/2 O rings
.078" thick x .238" I/S dia x .394" O/S dia, the step down "O" ring seats are
.235" dia x .055" tall, same both sides.
Hammer = 1.695" long x .738" dia w/recessed nose = .551 dia x .160" high,
fits over the crimp grooves in the pressure tube, that the rear of the valve rest against,
.415" dia x 1.570" deep spring tunnel x 872.5 grs weight.
Hammer spring = 3.560" long x .385" O/S dia x .310" I/S dia x .036" dia wire x 13 #'s weight,
coil bound = .750", alum spring guide = 1.260" long x .293" dia w/.395" x .125" head.
Pump Rod "O" Ring sealing head = .740" dia x .257" thick x .535" deep "O" groove x .123" wide,
8 x 1 mm dia threads x .460" long w/lock nut, foam oil wiper ring.
I can see another set of hammer spring & valve test coming down the pike,
because of the difference of spring poundage weights, between OEM and Replacement #'s,
I'll use the new OEM replacement valve,
air passage hole in =.058" dia, and valve exit hole = .140" dia,
Springs Dimensions
OEM original = 18/19#s, (3.140")
OEM replacement = 13/14 #'s, (3.560")
Flat Wire spring = 11/12 #s, (5" Full length)
Reduced Flat Wire = 8/9#s (2.50")
Storm Rider spring = 6/7#s (3.640")
I can tell you now, I wont be doing 3x per pump number,
as I think I have 1 Can of pellets left,
I'll settle for 1 pump per pump number,
unless there is a very convincing reason to do more.......Lol
Your thoughts and suggestions...........I am only doing this once..........LOL
Thanks, Guys
Don
-
The brass valve plunger/stem don’t fit together on my kit… brass is too tight. Got me to thinking though… would be easy to swap out valve stem with a longer one, and get more valve open time (dwell).
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The brass valve plunger/stem don’t fit together on my kit… brass is too tight. Got me to thinking though… would be easy to swap out valve stem with a longer one, and get more valve open time (dwell).
You have to use a press to fit the stem into the poppet. I think a vise would work.
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HPP
I have the same thing on mine, and with slightly other changes to/in dimensions in holes dia,
spring weights etc, a bunch of curveballs have been tossed in, as compared to OEM stock,
I'll have to be careful when doing these follow up tests, to be as uniform as possible.
I have some .115" dia drill rod in the shop,
I am half tempted to just make a full length valve stem with a Peek poppet
to fit OEM dimensions, I can make it long enough to have the tapered sealing end
and still have enough to trim back to a flat faced seal lip, when needed.
What would happen with a longer valve stem, when struck via the hammer,
would it drive into or jamb the top air inlet seal/poppet etc?
I personally DON'T like the hammer resting on the valve end and beating it up plus,
and having to cock the bolt to make the poppet seal, then pumping with a loaded chamber.
I forgot to check the hammer throw depth with the valve out, make note to check....... ;)
A free flight hammer would be perfect,
as long you have the proper dwell/lift for the poppets operation,
with the alum hammer and lighter weight hammer springs seems to be working OK, so far.
This is where a SSG would be the cat's meow,
the only monkey wrench is with the back action screw,
to add/have a SSG you need a 2 screw attachment, one from the top,
and the other from the bottom, to hold everything together.
The first major headache to clear up is, which air inlet hole size should I use,
OEM stock was .102" dia,
OEM Replacement is .058"
this is a major difference.
I'll start with the .058" dia valve INLET air hole and test and see the results,
then I can open this valve air hole to .102" for the next test, then on to .140 dia.?
I keep the Alum hammer and test all the Hammer springs from heaviest to the lightest,
using the same ammo and should I oil for every spring test?
Your thoughts and suggestions..............
Thanks Guys,
Don
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Remember,, Don, that the G test was lubed but the first H test wasn't? Comparing the G test to the lubed H-1 test is more appropriate for thinking through the differences as the lubing has proven to make a substantial difference.
Thinking about the difference lubing has made, I wonder if any of the changes allow for lubricants to pass through in any way. Could the big bumps in fps at particular pump numbers relate to enough lube passing through to diesel?
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SB
Thanks for the reminder, I wasn't thinking about that end,
got my head filled with these odd ball readings and attempting to find the reason why?.
Summary of 2 similar tests Oiled wipers.
Test G H1 *****
1 pump = 262--236 -26 fps
2 pumps= 377--367 -10
3 pumps= 390--449 +59
4 pumps= 436--495 +59
5 pumps= 488--511 +23
6 pumps= 498--574 +76
7 pumps= 639--597 -42
8 pumps= 754--613 -141
9 pumps= 810--757 -53
10 pumps= 833-813* -20
11 pumps= 833-856 +23
12 pumps= 833-869 +36
13 pumps= 770-833
14 pumps= 770-833
15 pumps= 770-833
* Target @ 750-800 fps
Test G & H1 Oiled wiper test
***** Difference between G & H1
I don't believe that there is any dieseling, as you should be able to smell that
after the shot, and I seen no evidence when I check the valve/bbl
or heard any different noise during any shot test etc.
IMHO, I think it just provides a better (tighter) seal and pushes more air,
per pump? I really have no information about how much a seal like this will hold
before leaking air..ie 8 pump test = Real odd reading?
I don't have the foggiest notion about the odd reading that shows up,
as I have don't have much experience in this stuff, my back ground is in the PB end.
I was hoping that the one of the 3 Guru's would show up and advise and educate us..... ;)
Tia,
Don
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Oil will give a better pump cup seal, over oiling may decrease the valve volume, creating slightly higher valve pressures, but that would be short lived.
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Thank James
I know that just a couple drops of oil on the oil wiper and "O" ring
lasts for over 400 pumps/shots.
When I tear it down, I wipe everything clean during the inspection time,
and some times I forget to re-oil the "O" ring every time.
That may be the reason for the odd ball readings that show up,
that I can't explain or understand?
Since I got a new valve, I can start over with the different air inlet holes,
and exhaust holes.
The first major headache to clear up is, which air inlet hole size should I use,
OEM stock was .102" dia, (Refurb rifle)
OEM Replacement is .058"
this is a major difference between hole diameters..
I think, I'll start with the .058" dia valve INLET air hole and test and see the results,
then I can open this valve air hole to .102" for the next test, then on to .140" dia,
while leaving the exhaust hole the OEM stock at .136" for starters.
Your suggestions or thoughts..........
Tia,
Don
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The riddle on my mind is... what is going on at pumps 7 and 8 in the g test and pump 9 in the h-1 test?
The mod difference between g test and h-1 test correlates with the oddly large fps increase on pumps 7 and 8 in the g test settling down in the h-1 test with pump 9 alone having an oddly large fps increase in the h-1 test. The phenomenon moved up from 7&8 to 9.
the mod difference between g and h-1 is a clue to this mystery i am unable to solve. Maybe a guru will show up with some guesses!
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SB
I have been looking at those ? readings, and nothing jumps out at me,
except I keep coming back to the internal dimension/volume of the valve,
along with the sealing ends of the poppet & inlet ports are Tapered coned seats,
from what I have read and understand, that is a No No for best results etc.
The only real/big difference between G & H-H1 is the air ports were opened,
up from .145" to 156.2" and both were oiled.
I can't believe that the pump head "O" seal is leaking,
or the results would show across the board, wouldn't they?
Per info that Psi Pumper provided, is that each pump = approx 144#'s per pump =
6 pumps = 864 #'s
7 pumps = 1008 #'s
8 pumps = 1152 #'s
9 pumps = 1296 #'s
10 pumps = 1440 #'s
I asked Bob to drop in, as he is a pumper Guru, but didn't get a reply back from him,
as he probably busier than a long tailed cat, in a room full of rocking chairs.
I don't know what to think or do now,
as I have a new OEM replacement valve with different spec's of .058" for air inlet hole,
as compared to .140" and valve TP hole of .136", same for both valves.
I do not know if the poppet and inlet internal parts are the same until I get the valve out
and compare etc.
Summary of these tests
Test E-1 F G H H-1
1 pump = -269-269-262--252-236
2 pumps= ------393-377--305-367
3 pumps= ------452-390--383-449
4 pumps= ------479-436--416-495
5 pumps= -574-538-488--449-511
6 pumps= ------623-498--524-574
7 pumps= ------646-639--567-597
8 pumps= ------652-754--600-613
9 pumps= ------708-810--633-757
10 pumps=-692-728-833-690-813
11 pumps=------744-833-711-856
12 pumps=------770-833-754-869
13 pumps=-----------770-833-801
14 pumps=-----------770-833-801
15 pumps=-----------770-833-801
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.
Summary of all the tests
Test A B C D E E-1 F G H H-1
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-259-269-269-262--252-236
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393-377--305-367
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452-390--383-449
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479-436--416-495
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538-488--449-511
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623-498--524-574
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646-639--567-597
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652-754--600-613
9 pumps= 652-651-688-659-662------708-810--633-757
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728-833-690-813
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744-833-711-856
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770-833-754-869
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770-833-801
14 pumps= 680----------------721------770-833-801
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741-770-833-801
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.
(A Test)
Here is the full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length,14 gr Crosman ammo
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, for length, nothing else changed.
A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils,
.023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(C Test)
10 pumps x 3 each per pump, same pump test as above
2 complete turns on pump rod head length, nothing else changed,
with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils,
.023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(D Test)
15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number, same as above
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E-1 Test)
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests,
for 1 - 5 - 10 pump levels.
(F Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr
and Hammer spring weight of 9-10#'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Flat wire,
25 coils, 14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(G Test)
Same test as the above test, with oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(H Test)
Same test as the above test, with oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(H - 1 test)
Same pump tests as all the others, only item changed was, Oiled the pump rod and head,
also was pumped to 10 pumps and left over night,
shot this 10 pump and recorded 705 fps, may have a leak. 14gr Crosman ammo.
Note: No "O" rings have been changed, all OEM "O" rings thru all these tests.......
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed).
Your thoughts and or suggestions................
Tia,
Don
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Thanks to PSI Pumper
I finally figured out the internal workings of the DF II 22 cal valve.
Charles had told me that 1ML is = to 1cc.
So I played around with the new OEM replacement valve I just got,
and found the following info out,
that I have 3.03cc of volume (with poppet/seals and spring parts inside).
I found a recessed expanded section in the Black end of the valve, I did not see before.
Info from the valve and pump rod displacement spec's.
Volume of a cylinder: pi x R2 x stroke:
6.940" x .745" =
So 3.1416 x .372 x .372 x 6.940" = 3.03 cubic inches.
Converted to cc = 49.65 cc of air per pump.
To get the pressure in the valve per pump:
49.65 divided by valve internal volume = pressure in bar.
Valve internal volume = 3.03cc
So if we use 3.03 cc as the internal valve volume size.
49.65 /3.03 = 16.38 bar.
To convert bar to psi = multiply by 14.50377.
16.38 x 14.50377 = 237.66 psi per pump.
237.66 psi would be at 100 percent pumping efficiency,
but because of headspace and cooling of the pumped air
90%, is about the best it can be.
237.66 x .9 = 213.89 psi per pump.
so here is the psi values for 15 pumps.
1=213.89 psi
2=427.78
3=641.67
4=855.56
5=1069.45
6=1283.34
7=1497.23
8=1711.12
9=1925.01
10=2138.90
11=2352.79
12=2566.68
13=2780.57
14=2994.46
15=3208.35 psi
The psi values seem too high for me, JDLR?
IMHO, I do not believe that at 15 pumps = 3208.35 psi,
it just don't sound the same as one of my pcp 22 cal rifles,
at the same 3000+ psi..
Then compare the last 4 test results, with the quirky fps readings, (at certain pump levels),
Houston we have a problem........ I do believe.
Summary of these tests
Test E-1 F G H H-1
1 pump = -269-269-262--252-236
2 pumps= ------393-377--305-367
3 pumps= ------452-390--383-449
4 pumps= ------479-436--416-495
5 pumps= -574-538-488--449-511
6 pumps= ------623-498--524-574
7 pumps= ------646-639--567-597
8 pumps= ------652-754--600-613
9 pumps= ------708-810--633-757
10 pumps=-692-728-833-690-813 **
11 pumps=------744-833-711-856
12 pumps=------770-833-754-869
13 pumps=-----------770-833-801
14 pumps=-----------770-833-801
15 pumps=-741------770-833-801
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.
Target point wanted = 750-800 fps @ 14 grain pellet weight
Guys, I am in over my head, need some help here.............
don't leave me dangling like Wile E Coyote over a cliff....... ;D
Is there an easy way to check the fps against the psi values,
to see if the pumping psi is accurate??
Your thoughts and suggestions.........
Thanks All
Don
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There isn’t an exact way to check fps to valve pressure. The flow from the valve differs due to porting but some comparisons can be made to my 3.4cc valve 392.
At about 2000 psi = 830 fps, give it some oil 860. Since it is 90% pump efficiency it only takes 8 pumps to get to 2000. If it had 80% pump efficiency it would be the same except it would need more pumps to get to 2000 psi.
So I think you’re at about 2000 psi in your DF2.
As I said before the DF has a long hammer stroke and that is most likely why you haven’t had issues with retaining air after the shot.
The stock hammer in a 392 is about the same weight as yours but a shorter stroke so it struggles with retaining air at maybe 1500 psi or less.
Take the formula and try different values other than 90% until you get 2000 psi for 800 fps. That will be your pumping efficiency.
The smaller.058 inlet hole will always be better than a larger one, no need to test that. There is no oil vortex effect.
Where your big jumps in chronograph numbers come from could be from the poor valve stem length protruding from the valve.
At that pump level something may be bouncing or something ?
3/8 is standard in the 392 and about the same for the 362 .
I have tested clay on the 392 hammer and at low pumps it bottoms out and at higher pumps the clay is thicker. I guess that is the same in all pcp and msp. A pump and dump doesn’t need a lot of hammer science like a pcp. The short valve stem is a design flaw in the DF2 and shows as people lighten the spring to tune a pump and dump application.
I would address that by using the crosman Maurauder poppet.
I still think one should be careful pushing the unique pump linkage too hard . Regardless of the number of pumps to get there using the 14.3 pellets: 3.0cc stock valve 800fps
4.5cc valve 875 fps
I don’t own one just guessing the strain on the pump linkage.
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Hi Charles
Thank you for that information, I'll play with the formula's later tonight.
A couple of questions, if you don't mind, I have never messed with a pumper before.
I have 1 valve with .156.2" dia thru all air passageways,
the other valve has the .058" inlet and .136" TP air passageways, (new OEM replacement valve)
I have never touched the throats on either valve, IIRR both a .180" dia., leave alone or change?
Would it be better to bush the .156.2" (original OEM valve) inlet airway back to which dia,
either .140", (.102" OEM dia), or .058"? and leave all other airways the same .156" dia?
It won't be hard to bush the inlet hole dia.
Thank you for your time and trouble,
Don
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Don
The smallest inlet hole is best. The pumper modders have long added pins to the inlet check valve to extend into the hole to close that air space . I prefer to use the small.040 hole instead because no danger of the pin coming loose and the math shows a pin with.005 clearance is the same air space as the .040 hole.
Depends on the length of the hole how much headspace you eliminate.
Since your gun reaches a point where the velocity no longer increases with more pumps. I would assume the headspace is enough that the pressure in the valve is equal to the pressure within the air tube at the bottom of the pump stroke not allowing any more air to enter the valve. My thinking would be 49cc of air at 14.7 atmospheric pressure compressed to .35 of headspace: 49 divided by .35= 140
Now we take 14.7 psi x 140 = 2058 psi. In this example, no matter how many times you pump the valve pressure remains at 2058 psi.
You had mentioned the pump lever backing up.030 at the end of stroke so that could be quite a bit of headspace added. Sure you don’t want to bind with cam over but the air pressure pushing back against the piston during pumping is considerably more than a tight adjustment adds.
When it comes to pressure discharge during shot cycle. It all depends on the pressure and valve size .
With the smaller valves the porting may not gain as much from being too large. As yours is at around 3cc you may be good at .156 on the transfer port. The throat is on the small side and would be better at .203 and perhaps an undercut valve stem.
Seems like it flows pretty decent now like it is. Lots of possibilities but I wouldn’t think the gains would be much improvement in the port size.
Perhaps just try undercutting the valve stem.
Charles
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Thanks Charles
I just installed the new OEM replacement valve, .058" inlet and .136" TP,
this is the test results,
Test I
1= 242 fps
2= 255 fps
3= 380 fps
4= 479 fps
5= 528 fps
6= 531 fps
7= 501 fps
8= 495 fps
9= 501 fps
10= 501 fps
11= 15 pumps @ 501 or less fps, appears to be stalled out on pumped air. ::)
Same test format as all the rest of the tests, Oiled, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains,
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways were OEM dimensions, No air left after any shot.
When I opened the OEM stock valve, I found that the top tapered sealing valve
has a very distinct step/ring that measures approx .200" dia
and was stuck in the tapered section of the valve,
the rear poppet face was also stuck in the tapered air hole.
It appear that under pressure both of these seals/poppets are sticking,
due to the tapered sections on each end of the valve.
This may be the reason for the weird and quirky tests results...........
I'll have to use a .375" a piloted counterbore to mill a flat face on each end
and then make Peek valve poppet and seals to fit.
Summary of all the tests
Test A B C D E E-1 F G H H-1 I
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-259-269-269-262--252-236=242
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393-377--305-367=255
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452-390--383-449=380
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479-436--416-495=479
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538-488--449-511=528
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623-498--524-574=531
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646-639--567-597=501
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652-754--600-613=495
9 pumps= 652-651-688-659-662------708-810--633-757=501
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728-833-690-813=501
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744-833-711-856=501
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770-833-754-869=501
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770-833-801
14 pumps= 680----------------721------770-833-801
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741-770-833-801
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.
(A Test)
Here is the full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length,14 gr Crosman ammo
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed. A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(C Test)
I just finished the 1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
(D Test)
I just finished the 1 >15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E-1 Test)
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests.
(F Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr
and Hammer spring weight of 9-10#'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Flat wire,
25 coils, 14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(G Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(H Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(H-1 Test)
Oiled, no other changes
(I Test)
Installed the new OEM replacement valve, .058" inlet and .136" TP, all air passageways OEM stock, Oiled, Same test format as all the rest of the tests,
Alum Hammer weight at 533grains, Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long,
weight = 8-9#'s, 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways were OEM dimensions, No air left after any shot.
Thanks,
Your thoughts and suggestions................
Tia,
Don
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The stock valve/tp, breech&barrel are better sized for .177. The .177 guns are seeing 825+ fps w/15pumps, and 800fps with 10 pumps.
-
HPP
Thanks,
I think I have to go back and look in the notes, as there is a difference in the hole sizes
of the 2 different OEM valves, I am finding out.
My OEM valve hole size was .102" for the inlet and .136" for the TP hole size,
then I opened everything up to .145" and got the best reading so far.
I am shooting for 750-800 fps at 10 pumps..
Then I got froggy and opened all up to .156", with the tapered seating,
just to see the results, which left me dangling off a limb,
but I learned the difference on the hole sizing and tapered sealing seats etc. ::)
I strongly believe KNOW that the tapered sealing and poppet seats are a bad design,
the plastic sealing ends are sticking in the tapered sealing holes,
and causing those weird/quirky test results, doing some careful designing
to convert standard poppet seating, ie- flat faced with Delron/Peek material.
Since I have the replacement valve, which I'll leave in stock configuration for now,
I can bush the hole and reduce the size, then install standard seating for the sealing holes,
and retest again, in the first valve.. makes it nice to have 2 valves to work with.
First time dealing with a MS Pumper, so I have a steep learning curve to get thru.......LoL.
Psi Pumper has been a great source of info and help.
At least the next DF shooter can learn from all this info/tests, and I can start on the accuracy end,
I hope it likes those WC NOE pellets, as the Starlings/Hosp just hate them........ ;)
Your thoughts and suggestions........
Tia,
Don
-
OK Guys
The mad DragonFly tester? is at it again, dug out the Peek rod and 3mm drill rod,
got a .375" Dia piloted counterbore, to make flat faced sealing seats, on the top and bottom,
internal seats..
Thoughts and suggestion on lathing the Peek poppet and top check valve parts,
1. Keep the same dimensions as OEM parts, (can use OEM spring),
2. Lengthen the valve stem to .375" longer than OEM stock length,
3. What else ??
Retest all the hammer spring weights? It will be 1 - 15 rd test per spring weight.
Springs Spec's/Dimensions
OEM original = 18/19#s, (3.140")
OEM replacement = 13/14 #'s, (3.560")
Flat Wire spring = 11/12 #s, (5" Full length)
Reduced Flat Wire = 8/9#s (2.50")
Storm Rider spring = 6/7#s (3.640")
When these new peek parts are installed, I'll test the same as the "I" test,
and I'll be using the OEM valve with the .058" inlet and .156" exit holes, with no changes
unless there is a better option preferred.
I am curious to see if I get those quirky readings, with these new Peek seats.
Your thoughts and suggestion.............
Thanks,
Don
-
Very interested to see the test results with the sealing ends no longer sticking in the tapered holes!
If the valve stem has also been lengthened, it might be hard to tell to what extent the stem length is responsible for changes and to what extent the new sealing ends are responsible in the upcoming test.
Mad dragonfly tinkerer... that would be a good GTA title below your username, Don!
-
SB
Thanks
I am curious just what makes this AG tick, it has given me a quick/brief look,
then the best results disappeared again.......Lol
I have always said that the problems lie in the valve, in MHO.
As soon as the rest of the parts get here, I finish the valve with
Peek poppets/seals and re do the "I" test, I keep everything the same,
with just the changes to the sealing check and poppet parts.
Then I open the inlet hole to .100" and use the .140" holes
that provided the best results in the "G" test.
I also have a new Replacement hammer spring to test at 3.560" long x .385"
O/S dia x .310" I/S dia x .036" dia wire x 13 #'s weight, coil bound = .750"
I am wondering what would happen by making a long valve stem
to around .375" length, when the hammer strikes/rest on the stem,
would the extra length cause a problem with pushing the poppet head
in deeper inside the valve and jamming the spring between
the check seal and poppet head.
I'll make a long valve stem also, then I can test both to see the results.
I'll test the stock length first, then the longer one last.
Playing around with the valve psi pressure formula, and found that 84.3 %
= 2003.47 psi at 10 pumps, my goal spot @750-800 fps.
This is just about what I tested at 10 pumps.
Your thoughts and suggestions.......
Tia,
Don
-
This is an awesome plan, Don! All variables controlled except for one change on each test, a clear target, and a clear enough hypothesis regarding how to get there based on some evidence. Love it. Good questions too, regarding the poppet stem length. Really enjoying being along for the ride and learning a lot.
-
SB
The 3mm valve stem rod came in to day, I turned (rough out) both poppet
and check valve seal.
Right now I only have just over .125" stem movement when the valve is back together,
with a .375" long stem.
I hope that is enough??
The counterbore didn't show up today even thou the email said it was delivered today??
More later,
Thanks,
Don
-
OK guys
I dug out my Peek rods and found that I have 2 different types of Peek,
one is tan colored and a little harder than the white stick,
so I made dual check valves and poppet heads, out of each color.
Made 2 valve stems that are about .450" long, than the OEM .180" stems.
I'll lap all the parts in to get good sealing, before using.
I have just over .310" of travel before the poppet stops
against the end of the check valve head, in both colors.
That should be enough travel distance, when struck by the hammer?
Your thoughts and suggestions...............before I'll start testing around 9AM,
providing the wind is half way quite.
Tia,
Don
-
OK guys
I dug out my Peek rods and found that I have 2 different types of Peek,
one is tan colored and a little harder than the white stick,
so I made dual check valves and poppet heads, out of each color.
Made 2 valve stems that are about .450" long, than the OEM .180" stems.
I'll lap all the parts in to get good sealing, before using.
I have just over .310" of travel before the poppet stops
against the end of the check valve head, in both colors.
That should be enough travel distance, when struck by the hammer?
Your thoughts and suggestions...............before I'll start testing around 9AM,
providing the wind is half way quite.
Tia,
Don
The poppet bottoming out may work but I usually avoid that condition by shortening something like the check valve or something. The poppet stem protruding .375 out from the valve for the hammer to strike is enough. You have it at .450 now? Shortening to .375 would get .075 less to bottom out then the rest could be taken off the check valve.
The peek is most likely too hard to make the check valve from. Teflon is what crosman pumpers use .
Ain’t saying it’s impossible though.
I try to stay away from peek poppets because they can be difficult to seal on the first pump .
Last one I did, I had to use a heavy valve spring for it to seal.
Hope it works easier for you.
Charles
-
This is exciting
-
Hi Charles
I made up the Peek check seal/poppets to fit the tapered holes,
as my straight counterbore has not arrived yet, I thought I would test this type first
when go to the flat faced sealing lips, if needed.
I also have Delron for the seals/poppets, which is the main material I normally use
for this type of parts. Very easy to make these parts to change if needed......
I got the spring seats a little long, and have shortened them down so
I have the hammer striking the rear of the valve (same as OEM),
but have the .375" stem length from the rear of the valve..
I also added a long nose to fit the air intake hole (regardless of size dia)
and this nose is .010" smaller dia than the inlet hole dia, and flush with the face of the valve.
Before, I had just the hole dia straight to the face of the sealing seal.
Thanks Guys,
Your thoughts and suggestions..............
Don
ps, looks like no wind today............ ::)
-
OK Guys
Here is the latest test, same test format as all the above tests.
All I can say, I don't believe these fps readings, will reshoot again,
ran out of ammo, will resupply asap.
Note, there is no 700 fps readings, which is strange.......... :o
Heard strange muzzle reports around 12-15 tests.
Test J
1= 223 fps -
2= 357 fps -
3= 452 fps -
4= 508 fps -
5= 515 fps -
6= 528 fps -
7= 538 fps -
8= 570 fps -
9= 577 fps -
10= 603 fps -
11= 620 fps -
12= 643 fps -
13= 898 fps -
14= 928 fps -
15= 980 fps -
(J test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and poppet, .180" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .170" nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the top of valve.
OEM spring. Valve stem lengthened to .375" from rear of valve, from the stock .180" length, Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot, in any of the above tests.
Thanks All,
Your thoughts and suggestions,
Toa,
Don
Summary of all the tests
Test A B C D E E-1 F G H H-1 I J
1 pump= 265-288-262-255-259-269-269-262--252-236=242=223
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393-377--305-367=255=357
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452-390--383-449=380=452
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479-436--416-495=479=508
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538-488--449-511=528=515
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623-498--524-574=531=528
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646-639--567-597=501=538
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652-754--600-613=495=570
9 pumps= 652-651-688-659-662------708-810--633-757=501=577
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728-833-690-813=501=603
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744-833-711-856=501=620
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770-833-754-869=501=643
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770-833-801-----------=898
14 pumps= 680----------------721--------------------------------=928
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741---------------------------=980
There was no extra air left after any pump test.
(A Test)
Full 15 pump test x 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM Hammer spring is 18/19#'s at max compression, (coil bound), 3.150" long,
.390" dia O/S dim, x .300" I/S dim, with 15 coils.
Hammer weight is 876 grains x .760" dia, Hammer travel distance of 1.100",
with a valve stem protrusion of .180". 14gr Crosman ammo
Stock valve = Bbl TP hole is .134" Dia, Action TP Hole is .134" Dia,
Air inlet hole = .100" Dia by .180" long,
valve stem length protrusion of .180" at the end of the valve,
Brass TP has a hole Dia of .136" x .295" tall x .356" dia.
Valve spring =1.475" long by .295" O/S dia, 12 coils, spring weight of 3.5#'s,
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, using a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
nothing else changed, 14 gr Crosman ammo
(C Test)
1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman ammo
(D Test)
1 >15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number,
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E-1 Test)
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests.
14 gr Crosman ammo
(F Test)
Same test as all the previous tests,
the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr, Hammer spring weight of 9-10#'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Flat wire,
25 coils, 14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head,14 gr Crosman ammo
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), air filter removed at valve inlet.
(G Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(H Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(H-1 Test)
Oiled, no other changes
(I Test)
Installed the new OEM replacement valve, .058" inlet and .136" TP,
all air passageways OEM stock, Oiled, Same test format as all the above tests,
Alum Hammer weight at 533grains, Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long,
weight = 8-9#'s, 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways were OEM dimensions.
(J Test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and poppet, .180" air inlet hole,
this seal had a .170" nose that fit into the inlet hole, this nose was flush at the top of valve,
OEM spring. Valve stem lengthened to .375" from rear of valve, from the stock .180" length, Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot, in any of the above tests.
-
I wonder if the poppet isn't sticking where the missing 700's were to be ? not enough fflow to keep it open vs valve pressure .
-
Hi James
I am not sure what is going on, every time I make an adjustment the bottom end
get smoother readings and I lose the higher top end. I did replace the pump rod
head "O" ring, and I believe that caused the "outa" normal spec's fps at the top end.
I personally like the "G" and "H1" readings, I am not chasing top fps,
just a good uniform readings up to 12 pumps max, I prefer 10 pumps @ 750/850 fps,
as long as the accuracy is there, which comes first in my book.
I am curious which of the pumps will produce the best accuracy at 25 > 50 yds?
Since I have 3 different valves, I think I set up one and redo the G & H1 tests again,
just to make sure there wasn't a monkey wrench in the works somewhere.......LoL = me.
Your thoughts and suggestions.........
Back to the drawing board, again. ::)
Thanks,
Don
-
x2 on H1 test as best so far (given objectives). The gun seems to be stabling increasing fps in predictably smaller increments with increasing number of pumps (except for the one jump from 600ish to 750ish). Suggests a healthy setup that might last over time. Also higher fps than the G test.
-
Looking over all the test data again today after shooting my own DF I in .177 at 2 pumps with ftt greens as I have most of its life (except recently when I've been shooting 5-6 pumps with lead ftts), I'm considering what mod might best fit my 2 pump practices.
It seems that changing to two turns out innthe early tests signicantly impacted 2 pump fps readings and is an easy place to start. Does that make sense to you, Don? (ie thoughts and suggestions please [wink, nudge]) SB
-
SB
Here is my thoughts and suggestions.
First I need some questions answered,
1. Have you chrono'd any of the ammo you are shooting, in all weights you want to shoot?
2. IMHO, I would test both averaged and oiled tests, to see any extreme readings.
3. You need to know the spec's of your valve.
4. Is your DF a I or II model?, as they are different in the pump rod area.
If it were me and starting this project, I would get the parts package,
I hate having to get some of the items, but I think this is the only way to get the valve.
You might check with PA and see if you can buy just the valve/"O" rings.
I just turned the front sight off, as I am planning on mounting a scope,
so the extra parts front sight did come in handy..............LOL.
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Tia,
Don
-
It's a DF I
Pellets are chrony'd and will be chrony'd again before modification
How would you recommend turning the pump rod? Guessing this won't require a parts pack or valve dimensions. Guessing this will bump up the fps at 2 pumps.
I like long dragonfly shooting sessions when I have to shoot quietly in the basement. 2 pumps with ftt greens has been great (even 1 pump gets the plinking or short range paper shooting done) and would be even better with a slight fps increase.
I don't mess much with moderators.
-
SB
Your DF I has a different pump rod setup, I don't know if you can turn the pump head out for adjustments etc.
I posted some info about another site that had lots of DF I & II info/mods, and IIRR there was a good post on the DF I about changing something on the pump head and that person got better results/upped the fps readings etc.
I am attempting to find that other sites info...........
Tia,
Don
-
OK Guys
Here is the latest test, same test format as all the above tests.
All I can say, It still shoots along the same path as before,
Note, there is no 700 fps readings, again, which is strange.......... :o
Test K
1= 242 fps -
2= 380 fps -
3= 456 fps -
4= 511 fps -
5= 531 fps -
6= 554 fps -
7= 561 fps -
8= 590 fps -
9= 623 fps -
10= 652 fps -
11= 666 fps -
12= 688 fps -
13= 603 fps -
14= 593 fps -
15= 554 fps -
(K test)
Used a valve with Delron air inlet seal and poppet, .140" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .135" Dia x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.156"
OEM valve spring, Valve stem lengthened to .375" from rear of valve,
from the stock .180" length, Same test format as above tests,
Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot, in any of the above tests.
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Tia,
Don
Summary of all the tests
Test A B C D E E-1 F G H H-1 I J K
1 pump= 265-288-262-255-259-269-269-262--252-236=242=223=242
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393-377--305-367=255=357=380
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452-390--383-449=380=452=456
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479-436--416-495=479=508=511
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538-488--449-511=528=515=531
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623-498--524-574=531=528=554
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646-639--567-597=501=538=561
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652-754--600-613=495=570=590
9 pumps= 652-651-688-659-662------708-810--633-757=501=577=623
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728-833-690-813=501=603=652
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744-833-711-856=501=620=666
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770-833-754-869=501=643=688
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770-833-801-----------=898=603
14 pumps= 680----------------721--------------------------------=928=593
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741---------------------------=980=554
There was no extra air left after any pump test.
(A Test)
Full 15 pump test x 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM Hammer spring is 18/19#'s at max compression, (coil bound), 3.150" long,
.390" dia O/S dim, x .300" I/S dim, with 15 coils.
Hammer weight is 876 grains x .760" dia, Hammer travel distance of 1.100",
with a valve stem protrusion of .180". 14gr Crosman ammo
Stock valve = Bbl TP hole is .134" Dia, Action TP Hole is .134" Dia,
Air inlet hole = .100" Dia by .180" long,
valve stem length protrusion of .180" at the end of the valve,
Brass TP has a hole Dia of .136" x .295" tall x .356" dia.
Valve spring =1.475" long by .295" O/S dia, 12 coils, spring weight of 3.5#'s,
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, using a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
nothing else changed, 14 gr Crosman ammo
(C Test)
1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman ammo
(D Test)
1 >15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number,
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(E-1 Test)
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests.
14 gr Crosman ammo
(F Test)
Same test as all the previous tests,
the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr, Hammer spring weight of 9-10#'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Flat wire,
25 coils, 14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head,14 gr Crosman ammo
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), air filter removed at valve inlet.
(G Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(H Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(H-1 Test)
Oiled, no other changes
(I Test)
Installed the new OEM replacement valve, .058" inlet and .136" TP,
all air passageways OEM stock, Oiled, Same test format as all the above tests,
Alum Hammer weight at 533grains, Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long,
weight = 8-9#'s, 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways were OEM dimensions.
(J Test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and poppet, .180" air inlet hole,
this seal had a .170" nose that fit into the inlet hole, this nose was flush at the top of valve,
OEM spring. Valve stem lengthened to .375" from rear of valve, from the stock .180" length, Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot, in any of the above tests.
(K test)
Used a valve with Delron air inlet seal and poppet, .140" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .135" x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.156"
OEM valve spring, Valve stem lengthened to .375" from rear of valve,
from the stock .180" length, Same test format as above tests,
Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot, in any of the above tests.
-
I think it would be worth testing the J configuration with the K inlet hole size. I think that will be your peak efficiency. The delrin is arguably worse than the OE brass for efficiency, but would probably have the best longevity.
I really want to test a peek poppet/seat in my Bottle Bandit. I think it could make substantially more power at the muzzle.
Could you try the J config with an OEM length stem with a peek poppet? I'm not convinced that it is helping.
-
Space Bus
To confirm what you want to test,
J test with "K" inlet hole size = .140",
Peek poppet = OEM valve stem length of .180",
.140" or .156" for the rest of the airways?
I can't change the bbl as it .156" now.
What is NOT helping?? the .375" valve stem length?
I have 3 valves,
a Peek inlet/poppet, or Delron intake/poppet, or stock check valve and poppet with
.140 or .156" dia air ways the last one is .136" OEM stock that I am not changing.........YET
Do you want a side order of fries w/dipping sauce to go, and a large Diet Coke also..........LOL
JJOYC= Just Jerkin on your chain.........LOL ;) :D ;D
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Tia,
Don
-
J test with "K" inlet hole size = .140",
Peek poppet = OEM valve stem length of .180",
.156" for the ports
I think this is going to be your best tune, but I don't know about the stem length, maybe longer is better.
-
Here is the latest test, same test format as all the above tests.
Test L1 L2 L3 L4
1= 272 - 252-232-295
2= 351 - 377-354-433
3= 436 - 426-429-439
4= 482 - 465-459-457
5= 511 - 495-482-495
6= 541 - 531-501-511
7= 577 - 567-565-544
8= 593 - 583-705-611
9= 639 - 597-761-757
10= 662- 613-823-800
11= 688- 626-836-849
12= 754- 643-866*-853
13= ------651-900*-870*
14= ------661-------915*
15= ------672-------948*
* = air retained in valve after shot
(L1 test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and Peek poppet, .145" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .135" Dia x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.145",
OEM valve spring and Valve stem length .180" from rear of valve,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .145" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot.
(L2 test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and Peek poppet, .156" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .145" Dia x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.156"
OEM valve spring and Valve stem length .180" from rear of valve,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot.
(L3 test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and Peek poppet, .145" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .135" Dia x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.145"
OEM valve spring and Valve stem length .375" from rear of valve,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .145" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
*Air left after shot.
(L4 test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and Peek poppet, .156" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .145" Dia x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.156"
OEM valve spring and Valve stem length .375" from rear of valve,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
*Air left after shot.
(L5 test)
Used OEM air inlet seal and poppet, .156" air inlet hole,
TP hole =.156" OEM valve spring and Valve stem length .180" from rear of valve,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot.
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Tia,
Don
Summary of all the tests
Test F G H H-1 I J K L1 L2 L3 L4
1 pump= 269-262--252-236=242=223=242=272=252=232=295
2 pumps= 393-377--305-367=255=357=380=351=377=354=433
3 pumps= 452-390--383-449=380=452=456=436=426=429=439
4 pumps= 479-436--416-495=479=508=511=482=465=459=457
5 pumps= 538-488--449-511=528=515=531=511=495=482=495
6 pumps= 623-498--524-574=531=528=554=541=531=501=511
7 pumps= 646-639--567-597=501=538=561=577=567=565=544
8 pumps= 652-754--600-613=495=570=590=593=583=705=611
9 pumps= 708-810--633-757=501=577=623=639=597=761=757
10 pumps= 728-833-690-813=501=603=652=662=613=823=800
11 pumps= 744-833-711-856=501=620=666=688=626=836=849
12 pumps= 770-833-754-869=501=643=688=754=643=866*=853
13 pumps= 770-833-801-------------898=603--------651=900*=870*
14 pumps= ----------------------------928=593--------661-------=915*
15 pumps= ----------------------------980=554--------672-------=948*
There was no extra air left after any pump test.
(F Test)
Same test as all the previous tests,
the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr, Hammer spring weight of 9-10#'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Flat wire,
25 coils, 14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head,14 gr Crosman ammo
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), air filter removed at valve inlet.
(G Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(H Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.
(H-1 Test)
Oiled, no other changes
(I Test)
Installed the new OEM replacement valve, .058" inlet and .136" TP,
all air passageways OEM stock, Oiled, Same test format as all the above tests,
Alum Hammer weight at 533grains, Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long,
weight = 8-9#'s, 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways were OEM dimensions.
(J Test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and poppet, .180" air inlet hole,
this seal had a .170" nose that fit into the inlet hole, this nose was flush at the top of valve,
OEM spring. Valve stem lengthened to .375" from rear of valve, from the stock .180" length,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot, in any of the above tests.
(K test)
Used a valve with Delron air inlet seal and poppet, .140" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .135" x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.156"
OEM valve spring, Valve stem lengthened to .375" from rear of valve, from the stock .180" length,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot, in any of the above tests.
-
The short stem seems to help at low pumps and the long stem at high pumps. I think the small inlet is marginally better than the larger one. The retained air is curious, and makes me think you are indeed getting some significant bounce at low pumps and that's dumping the valve. At highier pumps/pressures the poppet is able to reseal after the bounce has lost enough energy.
-
I see I failed to list the L5 test, I thought I had it down.
I'll have to re shoot it tomorrow, as I wiped the chrono history out.
Out of the 4 tests above I like the L3 test, my self.
I can't figure out why I have retained air now and I never had before, something is wrong.
I'll have to check the flat wire spring......
From 10 pumps to 15 pumps, the long valve stem seems to provide
the most power looking at the overall picture, but the results seem fairly uniform,
across the board.
I am tired..........LOL.
Tia,
Don
-
Hey Guys
Would the DF II made a decent 25 cal pumper?
What would be the estimated results for it?
I only have 1, 25 cal rifle.
Tia,
Your thoughts or suggestions............
Don
-
Hey Guys
Would the DF II made a decent 25 cal pumper?
What would be the estimated results for it?
I only have 1, 25 cal rifle.
Tia,
Your thoughts or suggestions............
Don
The Bandit and Stormrider are more efficient in 25 cal. I even have some 25 cal parts of you want a left handed bolt receiver. I was making 12+ FPE using a 100b regulator, the Chaser hammer spring, 9" barrel, and 22 grain wadcutters. I think there's a good 20+ FPE OK the table for the DF MKII
-
Here is the latest test, same test format as all the above tests,
Retained air from 1st shot results,
Test L4 M +
1= 295 232
2= 433 357
3= 439 449
4= 457 452
5= 495 535
6= 511 625
7= 544 666
8= 611 702
9= 757 779
10= 800 823
11= 849 849
12= 853 869
13= 870* 884*=638@
14= 915* 884*=636@
15= 948* 890*=642@
* = air retained in valve after 1st shot
@ = second shot on the retained air = fps
M Test
Nothing changed from L4 test, except the weather, down to 60* temps,
from 90*+
I am attempting to figure out WHY, I have retained air now,
and never had any on the before tests, I check after every shot, past 10 pumps.
I have changed nothing since the last L4 test,
except the weather changing from hot to blowing winds from thunder storms,
and a temp drop of over 30+*.
I can feel the difference when pumping when I get to around 12-13 pumps etc.
Your thoughts or suggestions.........
Thanks,
Don
-
You are headed into multi shot spectrum, might be handy as a hunter setup with an easy follow up shot ??? Count the pumps to get back to the same FPS before and after the first and second shot ?
-
Hi James
I see that, I like what is going on (retained air), but not sure how to refine/tune for it,
since this is my hunting rifle, a second shot (when needed) would be nice,
or I get a couple of targets and don't want to pump or make more noise etc.
My target area is 10 pumps @ 750-800 fps, with 14 gr Crosman ammo.
I don't know if you can tune for a second shot on retained air from a pumper?
As I have never heard of anyone talking about it.
I may drop Bob a line and see what he says, as I just can't find any info so far.
This retained air just showed up outa the Blue, and I don't know why? YET.
I have a sneaky suspension, that if I remove a 1/2 clip at a time of the hammer spring
and do some testing, I may be able to get more retained air down around the 10 pump area,
which would be perfect for the mag capabilities.
I think, I am getting about 203#'s of psi per pump, so I'll test and see what happens,
and I do have a shorter less poundage weight flat wire hammer springs also, to try. ;)
Your thoughts or suggestions...............
Thanks,
Don
-
Interestingly on the m test, there is no huge leap in fps when in the ballpark of 700 fps (see pumps 8 & 9 on L4 test and similar on other tests). Although lower total fps, I like the m numbers for their consistency.
-
Hi SB
Well I made a lite weight hammer out of the OEM one,
polished up and weighs in at 533 grains (down from OEM 795 grs)
and then made a ultra lite weight Peek hammer @ 193 grains.
I then cut a flat wire hammer spring at 3-1/4 " long with a weight of 7#'s,
which I can cut coils off until I get in the neighborhood of 775 fps both shots,
when the pumps reach into the 10 to 15 range.
Then made a .450" Dia lead rod, (sand cast) so I can cut off segments
to increase the hammer weight, as needed for the Ultra LW hammer
and made several washers to fit the spring guide to increase the hammer spring weight,
if needed.
Attempting to get 2 equal shots (as possible) from any of the pumps over 10
or all that retain air after the first shot.
Imho, testing with the spring hammer weight first is the easiest option,
all I have to do is remove 3 bolts to get to the hammer spring etc.
I hate removing the action because of the blasted M3 bevel headed tiny screw that holds
the front half secure?
I have just about finished the mockup for adding a SSG, which will make life/tuning a lot easier
for any of these type of rifles.
I have an idea that the hammer bouncing off the valve base/tube crimped area is causing
these quirky reading at certain pump levels, so we shall see, I hope. ;)
Thanks
Your thoughts or suggestions..........
Don
-
Hi SB
Well I made a lite weight hammer out of the OEM one,
polished up and weighs in at 533 grains (down from OEM 795 grs)
and then made a ultra lite weight Peek hammer @ 193 grains.
I then cut a flat wire hammer spring at 3-1/4 " long with a weight of 7#'s,
which I can cut coils off until I get in the neighborhood of 775 fps both shots,
when the pumps reach into the 10 to 15 range.
Then made a .450" Dia lead rod, (sand cast) so I can cut off segments
to increase the hammer weight, as needed for the Ultra LW hammer
and made several washers to fit the spring guide to increase the hammer spring weight,
if needed.
Attempting to get 2 equal shots (as possible) from any of the pumps over 10
or all that retain air after the first shot.
Imho, testing with the spring hammer weight first is the easiest option,
all I have to do is remove 3 bolts to get to the hammer spring etc.
I hate removing the action because of the blasted M3 bevel headed tiny screw that holds
the front half secure?
I have just about finished the mockup for adding a SSG, which will make life/tuning a lot easier
for any of these type of rifles.
I have an idea that the hammer bouncing off the valve base/tube crimped area is causing
these quirky reading at certain pump levels, so we shall see, I hope. ;)
Thanks
Your thoughts or suggestions..........
Don
Yes, there's a small amount of bounce depending on plenum pressure. As you are finding, less bounce at high pressures.
-
Well guys
I installed an ultra lite weight Peek hammer = 185grs
and used the same hammer spring as the "M" test,
and I found out I have to increase hammer weight or spring weight, or both.
I got 2 shots = 5 pumps = 68fps and 10 pumps = 298fps, 15 pumps and no shots,
the lite weight hammer would not open the valve,
or I broke a check seal or poppet, as I had no pump pressure.
So the haunted DF II is on the bench and I'll tear in to it later.
Just about finished with the SSG for her............ ::)
Tia,
Don
-
Upon the 2nd try with the peek hammer (185grs), these results were obtained,
5 pumps = 472fps,
10 pumps = 590fps,
15 pumps,
1st try 15 p = 49fps, (no pumping), all retained air left in valve from 15 pumps,
2nd try = 98fps,
3rd try = 144fps,
4th try = 334fps,
5th try = 639fps,
6th shot = NO air.
So, me thinks, I have to add some hammer weight, so I'll add 200+grs and retest,
I believe, that I had valve lock @ 15 pumps, because of too lite of hammer weight.
I was after a second shot only, now I got 4 extra shots, :o ::)
this pumper is haunted I do believe.
And for the reason of NOT holding air on the first try with this peek hammer,
I found a sliver of alum imbedded on seal ring, recut and lapped and it works OK now.
Your thoughts and suggestions......
Thanks,
Don
-
You won't believe this, This rifle is HAUNTED..............
I was curious about this retained air on the 15 pumps,
so I just reshot it, with these results......... :o
NO Pumping, just retained air from 15 pumps.
1 shot=45fps
2 shot=127fps
3 shot=134fps
4 shot=137
5 shot=164
6 shot=177
7 shot=203
8 shot=226
9 shot=265
10 shot=328
11 shot=410
12 shot=561fps
13 shot=652fps
14 shot= NO Air left
I'll bet your pumper can't do this.............LOL ;)
Tia,
Don
-
??? Have you tried a test for retained air at 11 or 12 pumps ???
-
James
No I have not yet, giving my wrist a break, fell and tweaked it a little,
hurts to do a lot of pumping etc.
I'll start a 10 pumps and go and check for any retained air........... ;)
Thanks,
Don
-
Ok James, here you go,
Just got thru with the 10 pumps thru 15 pumps, to see any retained air,
and the results are, just the way they were recorded from the chrono,
quite surprised about the results, for a 185gr Peek hammer.
10p = 3 shots = 511-695-423fps
11p = 3 shots = 462-672-544fps
12p = 4 shots = 380-498-692-380fps
13p = 4 shots = 334-423-580-649fps
14p = 6 shots = 252-298-360-465-570-419fps
15p = 6 shots = 223-249-364-469-620-446fps
1st try @ 15 p = 49-98-144-334-639fps
2nd try @ 15p = 45-127-134-137-164-177-203-226-265-328-410-561-652fps
Back to the same quirky shot patterns again,
I am beginning to wonder, if I can get consistent back to back tests?
I hope that the SSG makes a difference and levels very thing out.
Your thoughts and suggestions.........
Thanks,
Don
-
Most likely retaining air at 8 or 9 pumps, that might be the sweet spot for 2 equal shots ??? Hammer spring adjustment will help immensely IMO
-
James
I'll check from 5 pumps to see where the retained air starts.
I am going to give my wrist a short break, as it's hurting now.
I know, I'll have to add some hammer weight from what I see from the results.
I'll start with 195grs and do some more testing etc,
that will bring the hammer weight up to 380Grs.
My lightest hammer is 530grs and go up from there.
One thing about adding weight, I can remove it with a drill bit,
or change as needed, very quickly.
Any thoughts or suggestions...........
Thanks,
Don
-
I hear you about the pumping, I shot one of my 13xx's Saturday, and thought different on Sunday :)
-
Can't be much worse than those 392s they brought out a couple years ago. I bought one for each of us and Betty Lou shot her's one time and she was done with it. Sold them both.
-
Guys
I couldn't stand any longer, put on wrist brace and wrap it with a elastic bandage,
didn't hurt pumping, so I am back in the hunt.........LOL
Just got thru with the 5 pumps thru 10 pumps, to see any retained air,
and the results are, for a 185gr Peek hammer, nothing else changed.
2nd retained air test
5p = 1 shot = 475fps
6p = 1 shot = 511fps
7p = 1 shot = 541fps
8p = 1 shot = 577fps
9p = 1 shot = 564fps
10p = 3 shots = 670-561-511fps
1st Retained air test
10p = 3 shots = 511-695-423fps
11p = 3 shots = 462-672-544fps
12p = 4 shots = 380-498-692-380fps
13p = 4 shots = 334-423-580-649fps
14p = 6 shots = 252-298-360-465-570-419fps
15p = 6 shots = 223-249-364-469-620-446fps
I am going to make some 100> 200gr lead weights for the hammer,
to test the results for retained air, the last 10p test is getting close to where I want to be,
for 2 shots etc.
If I can get down to 2 shots for retained air, with a slightly heavier hammer weight,
then I can tune the hammer spring weight, for closer spec's.
Waiting for parts to get here for the SSG mod.
Your thoughts and suggestions...........
Thanks
Don
-
You won't believe this, This rifle is HAUNTED..............
I was curious about this retained air on the 15 pumps,
so I just reshot it, with these results......... :o
NO Pumping, just retained air from 15 pumps.
1 shot=45fps
2 shot=127fps
3 shot=134fps
4 shot=137
5 shot=164
6 shot=177
7 shot=203
8 shot=226
9 shot=265
10 shot=328
11 shot=410
12 shot=561fps
13 shot=652fps
14 shot= NO Air left
I'll bet your pumper can't do this.............LOL ;)
Tia,
Don
[chuckling]
If all goes well, it might haunt the dreams of its prey in the near future.
-
Guys
I couldn't stand any longer, put on wrist brace and wrap it with a elastic bandage,
didn't hurt pumping, so I am back in the hunt.........LOL
Just got thru with the 5 pumps thru 10 pumps, to see any retained air,
and the results are, for a 185gr Peek hammer, nothing else changed.
2nd retained air test
5p = 1 shot = 475fps
6p = 1 shot = 511fps
7p = 1 shot = 541fps
8p = 1 shot = 577fps
9p = 1 shot = 564fps
10p = 3 shots = 670-561-511fps
1st Retained air test
10p = 3 shots = 511-695-423fps
11p = 3 shots = 462-672-544fps
12p = 4 shots = 380-498-692-380fps
13p = 4 shots = 334-423-580-649fps
14p = 6 shots = 252-298-360-465-570-419fps
15p = 6 shots = 223-249-364-469-620-446fps
I am going to make some 100> 200gr lead weights for the hammer,
to test the results for retained air, the last 10p test is getting close to where I want to be,
for 2 shots etc.
If I can get down to 2 shots for retained air, with a slightly heavier hammer weight,
then I can tune the hammer spring weight, for closer spec's.
Waiting for parts to get here for the SSG mod.
Your thoughts and suggestions...........
Thanks
Don
Wow, this is getting wild.
Hopefully a heavier hammer will yield two close shots above 600 fps at 10ish pumps.
-
1st test - Peep hammer 185grs + 103gr added lead weight= 288grs total hammer weight
10p = 1 shot = 597fps
11p = 1 shot = 616fps
12p = 3 shots =570-538-511fps
13p = 3 shots =610-357-426fps
14p = 2 shots =534-577fps
15p = 3 shots =318-567-583fps
1st Retained air test with 185gr hammer weight
10p = 3 shots = 511-695-423fps
11p = 3 shots = 462-672-544fps
12p = 4 shots = 380-498-692-380fps
13p = 4 shots = 334-423-580-649fps
14p = 6 shots = 252-298-360-465-570-419fps
15p = 6 shots = 223-249-364-469-620-446fps
By adding that 103grs of more weight to the hammer,
the 10/11 pumps retained air only had 1 shot each,
and since the extra weight is inside the spring tunnel,
it's also adding slightly more spring pressure also,
because of the 1/4" length difference, for the added lead.
If I add another 100+ grs, I wonder if 12 to 15 pumps would follow suit?
I guess I find out............ ::)
Your suggestions and thoughts..........
Thanks,
Don
-
1st test - Peep hammer 185grs + 103gr added lead weight= 288grs total hammer weight
10p = 1 shot = 597fps
11p = 1 shot = 616fps
12p = 3 shots =570-538-511fps
13p = 3 shots =610-357-426fps
14p = 2 shots =534-577fps
15p = 3 shots =318-567-583fps
1st Retained air test with 185gr hammer weight
10p = 3 shots = 511-695-423fps
11p = 3 shots = 462-672-544fps
12p = 4 shots = 380-498-692-380fps
13p = 4 shots = 334-423-580-649fps
14p = 6 shots = 252-298-360-465-570-419fps
15p = 6 shots = 223-249-364-469-620-446fps
By adding that 103grs of more weight to the hammer,
the 10/11 pumps retained air only had 1 shot each,
and since the extra weight is inside the spring tunnel,
it's also adding slightly more spring pressure also,
because of the 1/4" length difference, for the added lead.
If I add another 100+ grs, I wonder if 12 to 15 pumps would follow suit?
I guess I find out............ ::)
Your suggestions and thoughts..........
Thanks,
Don
14p with the added weight looks really good!
More weight decreased the peek fps. Consider doing something a little less than 103... you might get a higher fps on 14p or thereabouts but still have 2 consistent shots.
-
SB
I think,
I'll drop in a 11/12# hammer spring, these last tests have been using 8/9# spring,
before I change the hammer weight.
This might give me more information to go with the hammer weights etc. ;)
Sooner or later I'll stumble into the right path, I think.
Right now we just had a Frog Choker thunderstorm move in,
1/2" Hail and down pouring so badly, that I have Carp swimming up the driveway,
I got to get my bow out to pin a few of them..........LOL
I'll lose power pretty soon.
Tia,
Don
-
Carpe diem! Bow style! [chuckling]
-
SB
Your using $50 words on a $5 dollar person..............LoL
-
Guys
More info on retained air from number of pumps test.
1st Retained air test with 185gr hammer weight, 8/9# hammer spring, no other changes.
10p = 3 shots = 511-695-423fps
11p = 3 shots = 462-672-544fps
12p = 4 shots = 380-498-692-380fps
13p = 4 shots = 334-423-580-649fps
14p = 6 shots = 252-298-360-465-570-419fps
15p = 6 shots = 223-249-364-469-620-446fps
1st test - Peep hammer 185grs + 103gr added lead weight= 288grs total hammer weight, with 8/9# hammer spring, no other changes.
10p = 1 shot = 597fps
11p = 1 shot = 616fps
12p = 3 shots =570-538-511fps
13p = 3 shots =610-357-426fps
14p = 2 shots =534-577fps
15p = 3 shots =318-567-583fps
2nd test - Peep hammer 185grs + 103gr added lead weight= 288grs total hammer weight, with a 11/12# hammer spring, no other changes.
10p = 1 shot = 538fps
11p = 1 shot = 606fps
12p = 1 shot =626fps
13p = 1 shot =623fps
14p = 1 shot =616fps
15p = 2 shots =565-518fps
Just a slight hammer spring increase, stopped all the air retained,
except for the 15 pumps test.
I have a 10/11# spring for testing, so I'll see what the results are...
I would like the single shots to be a little higher, if possible.
Now it becomes a balancing act between hammer and spring weights?
Thoughts or suggestions.......
Thanks,
Don
-
Guys
Here's more info,
3rd test - Peek hammer 185grs + 103gr added lead weight= 288grs total hammer weight,
with a 10# hammer spring, no other changes.
10p = 1 shot = 518fps
11p = 1 shot = 590fps
12p = 1 shot = 616fps
13p = 2 shots = 610-557fps* 53 fps difference
14p = 2 shots = 593-570fps* 23 fps difference
15p = 3 shots = 472-692-469fps
Just a slight hammer spring change, air retained in 13/14/15 pump tests.
I do like the 14 p tests*, fairly close together readings.
________________________________________________________________________
1st Retained air test with 185gr hammer weight, 8/9# hammer spring, no other changes.
10p = 3 shots = 511-695-423fps
11p = 3 shots = 462-672-544fps
12p = 4 shots = 380-498-692-380fps
13p = 4 shots = 334-423-580-649fps
14p = 6 shots = 252-298-360-465-570-419fps
15p = 6 shots = 223-249-364-469-620-446fps
______________________________________________________________________
1st test - Peep hammer 185grs + 103gr added lead weight= 288grs total hammer weight,
with 8/9# hammer spring, no other changes.
10p = 1 shot = 597fps
11p = 1 shot = 616fps
12p = 3 shots =570-538-511fps
13p = 3 shots =610-357-426fps
14p = 2 shots =534-577fps
15p = 3 shots =318-567-583fps
_______________________________________________________________________
2nd test - Peep hammer 185grs + 103gr added lead weight= 288grs total hammer weight,
with a 11/12# hammer spring, no other changes.
10p = 1 shot = 538fps
11p = 1 shot = 606fps
12p = 1 shot =626fps
13p = 1 shot =623fps
14p = 1 shot =616fps
15p = 2 shots =565-518fps 47fps difference
Just a slight hammer spring increase, no air retained, except for the 15 pumps test.
Tia,
Don
-
Wowza 14p! I like that the pump n is at the high end of manufacturer's recommendations (except two shots [chuckling]).
-
What's it like to notice what you've accomplished here?
-
SB
Thanks
In my HO,
I don't believe that I have accomplished very much, as I really don't understand the dynamics,
this pumper is way worse than a PCP for tuning.
I can't seem to find a good consistent readings, no matter which way I turn, or what I try,
kind'a like a dog chasing it's tail, I am just getting dizzy, and just about ready to throw in the towel.
There is something going on with this pump rod head and the "O" rings and the way they fit,
along with the head space between the valve and pump rod head,
it seems that I have 2 different sizes, as one size just slides in a light friction fit,
and the other one seem to be very tight fit and hard to get into the pressure tube.
The dimensions of the pump head are,
bottom of the "O" ring groove "U" shaped = .533" x .125" wide, Dia of head =.740".
Valve body "O" ring dimensions of = bottom of the flat shaped groove = .530" x .125" wide
x.738" OS Dia.
Valve head "O" ring groove = "U" shaped = .535" x .123" wide x .742" OS Dia,
which indicate the use of a 3mm x 13.50mm "O" ring?.
I went thru ALL the tests and I have this average for 1-5-10-15 pump tests
with the average fps reading, using Crosman 14 gr ammo.
On the 1-5-10 tests, I had 16 test results/average,
on the 15 pumps tests I only had 6 tests result/average that went to 15 pumps,
1 pump tests average for 16 tests =273fps
5 pump tests average for 16 tests =638fps
10 pump tests average for 16 tests =720fps
15 pump tests average for 6 tests =828fps
Thanks all,
Don
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I was playing around this afternoon, changed back to the Alum hammer with the 8/9# spring
and came up with this tune.
All shots were single shots until I get to 12 pumps,
then I started getting 2 shots per 12 pumps, so I decided to see what could be done.
1st 2nd shot
12p = 2 shots = 633 +0 pump = 357fps
12p = 2 shots = 639 +6 pumps= 593fps
12p = 2 shots = 634 +7pumps = 623fps
12p = 2 shots = 635 +8pumps = 630fps
12p = 2 shots = 633 +9pumps = 662fps
So it appears that I have found a good hunting pumps = 12 pumps and then add 8 more pumps
as you can see this is real close to the 1st shot, and all shots were very consistent,
for 3 tests. Should I even try 13 > 15 pumps?
I can live with this hunting setup............. 8)
Tia,
Don
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8) ;D Fingers crossed it stays like that now ;D
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After the 8 pump shot, is there any air left for a third?
This is wild stuff. The consistency is great! Hopefully it holds this way as James said!
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Guys
Testing different hammer spring weights for the results,
Springs Spec's/Dimensions
OEM original = 18/19#s, (3.140")
OEM replacement = 13/14 #'s, (3.560")
Flat Wire spring = 11/12 #s, (5" Full length)
Reduced Flat Wire = 8/9#s (2.50")
Storm Rider spring = 6/7#s (3.640")
Hammer spring tests #1
OEM Hammer 537 grs (lightened from 875 grs) with 6/7# hammer spring,
peek poppet/seals, .375" valve stem length, no other changes, 14 gr Crosman ammo.
Pumps = shots = fps
5= 567 fps
6= 492 fps
7= 511 fps
8= 541 fps
9= 574 fps
10p = 2 shots = 544-505 fps*
11p = 3 shots = 587-574-380 fps*
12p = 3 shots = 495-593-475 fps*
13p = 2 shots = 554-554 fps*
14p = 3 shots = 515-587-498 fps*
15p = 3 shots = 482-517-475 fps*
16p = 5 shots = 459-551-652-579-410 fps*
Retained air = *
Same as above test, only change is to a 8/9# 2.5" Flat wire hammer spring, test #2
no other changes.
5= 564 fps
6= 600 fps
7= 636 fps
8= 2 shots - 540 = 203fps *
9= 2 shots - 577 = 321 fps *
10p = 2 shots - 593 = 488 fps*
10p = 2 shots - 606 = 472 fps*
10p = 2 shots = 605 +4p = 603 fps*
10p = 2 shots = 610 +6p = 593 fps*
10p = 2 shots = 616 +8p = 606 fps*
11p = 2 shots = 620 = 577 fps*
12p = 2 shots = 616 = 636 fps*
13p = 3 shots = 501-564-433 fps*
14p = 3 shots = 544-570-429 fps*
15p = 3 shots = 482-583-600 fps*
16p = 3 shots = 446-616-659 fps*
Retained air = *
Same as above tests, only change is to a 11/12# full length Flat wire hammer spring, test #3
no other changes.
5= 459 fps
6= 495 fps
7= 531 fps
8= 554 fps
9= 577fps
10p = 816 fps
11p = 833 fps
12p = 853 fps
13p = 889 fps
14p = 905 fps
15p = 923 fps
16p = 908 fps
No air retained after any shot.
3 test average on the #9 & 10 shots, I do not know what is going on here..........?
I do like the results, will test a couple more times, if it holds consistent,
I have found my Holy Grail............... 8)
Summary of all the tests
Test J K L1 L2 L3 L4 HSP#3
1 pump= 223=242=272=252=232=295-------
2 pumps= 357=380=351=377=354=433-------
3 pumps= 452=456=436=426=429=439-------
4 pumps= 508=511=482=465=459=457-------
5 pumps= 515=531=511=495=482=495=459 fps
6 pumps= 528=554=541=531=501=511=495
7 pumps= 538=561=577=567=565=544=531
8 pumps= 570=590=593=583=705=611=554
9 pumps= 577=623=639=597=761=757=577
10 pumps=603=652=662=613=823=800=816
11 pumps=620=666=688=626=836=849=833
12 pumps=643=688=754=643=866*=853=853
13 pumps=898=603--------651=900*=870*=889
14 pumps=928=593--------661-------=915*=905
15 pumps=980=554--------672-------=948*=908
There was no retained air left after any pump test, except those with the *.
(J Test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and poppet, .180" air inlet hole,
this seal had a .170" nose that fit into the inlet hole, this nose was flush at the top of valve,
OEM valve spring. Valve stem lengthened to .375" from rear of valve, from the stock .180" length,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
(K test)
Used a valve with Delron air inlet seal and poppet, .140" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .135" x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.156"
OEM valve spring, Valve stem lengthened to .375" from rear of valve,
from the stock .180" length,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
(L1 test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and Peek poppet, .145" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .135" Dia x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.145",
OEM valve spring and Valve stem length .180" from rear of valve,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .145" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot.
(L2 test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and Peek poppet, .156" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .145" Dia x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.156"
OEM valve spring and Valve stem length .180" from rear of valve,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot.
(L3 test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and Peek poppet, .145" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .135" Dia x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.145"
OEM valve spring and Valve stem length .375" from rear of valve,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .145" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
*Air left after shot.
(L4 test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and Peek poppet, .156" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .145" Dia x .370" long nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the face of the valve. TP hole =.156"
OEM valve spring and Valve stem length .375" from rear of valve,
Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
*Air left after shot.
(HS#3 test)
OEM Hammer 537 grs (lightened from 875 grs) only change is to a 11/12#
full length Flat wire hammer spring, Peek poppet/seals, no other changes,
14 gr Crosman ammo.
Your thoughts and suggestions..........
Thanks,
Don
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Which weight and pump number data points are standing out to you, Don?
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SB
Here is the post, for that information, those readings are really odd.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=208652.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=208652.0)
Thanks,
Don