New Seneca Dragonfly?

[Nvreloader]

Thanks to PSI Pumper

I finally figured out the internal workings of the DF II 22 cal valve.
Charles had told me that 1ML is = to 1cc.

So I played around with the new OEM replacement valve I just got,
and found the following info out,
that I have 3.03cc of volume (with poppet/seals and spring parts inside).
I found a recessed expanded section in the Black end of the valve, I did not see before.

Info from the valve and pump rod displacement spec's.

Volume of a cylinder: pi x R2 x stroke:
6.940" x .745" =
So 3.1416 x .372 x .372 x 6.940" = 3.03 cubic inches.
Converted to cc = 49.65 cc of air per pump.

To get the pressure in the valve per pump:
49.65 divided by valve internal volume = pressure in bar.
Valve internal volume = 3.03cc
So if we use 3.03 cc as the internal valve volume size.
49.65 /3.03 = 16.38 bar.

To convert bar to psi = multiply by 14.50377.
16.38 x 14.50377 = 237.66 psi per pump.

237.66 psi would be at 100 percent pumping efficiency,
but because of headspace and cooling of the pumped air
90%, is about the best it can be.

237.66 x .9 = 213.89 psi per pump.
so here is the psi values for 15 pumps.
1=213.89 psi
2=427.78 
3=641.67 
4=855.56 
5=1069.45 
6=1283.34 
7=1497.23 
8=1711.12 
9=1925.01 
10=2138.90 
11=2352.79 
12=2566.68 
13=2780.57 
14=2994.46 
15=3208.35 psi

The psi values seem too high for me, JDLR?
IMHO, I do not believe that at 15 pumps = 3208.35 psi,
it just don't sound the same as one of my pcp 22 cal rifles,
at the same 3000+ psi..

Then compare the last 4 test results, with the quirky fps readings, (at certain pump levels), 
Houston we have a problem........  I do believe.
Summary of these tests
     Test       E-1   F     G     H    H-1
1 pump = -269-269-262--252-236
2 pumps= ------393-377--305-367
3 pumps= ------452-390--383-449
4 pumps= ------479-436--416-495
5 pumps= -574-538-488--449-511
6 pumps= ------623-498--524-574
7 pumps= ------646-639--567-597
8 pumps= ------652-754--600-613
9 pumps= ------708-810--633-757
10 pumps=-692-728-833-690-813 **
11 pumps=------744-833-711-856
12 pumps=------770-833-754-869
13 pumps=-----------770-833-801
14 pumps=-----------770-833-801
15 pumps=-741------770-833-801
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.
Target point wanted = 750-800 fps @ 14 grain pellet weight

Guys, I am in over my head, need some help here.............
don't leave me dangling like Wile E Coyote over a cliff.......

Is there an easy way to check the fps against the psi values,
to see if the pumping psi is accurate??

Your thoughts and suggestions.........
Thanks All
Don

[Psipumper]

There isn’t an exact way to check fps to valve pressure. The flow from the valve differs due to porting but some comparisons can be made to my 3.4cc valve 392.
At about 2000 psi = 830 fps, give it some oil 860. Since it is 90% pump efficiency it only takes 8 pumps to get to 2000. If it had 80% pump efficiency it would be the same except it would need more pumps to get to 2000 psi.
So I think you’re at about 2000 psi in your DF2.
As I said before the DF has a long hammer stroke and that is most likely why you haven’t had issues with retaining air after the shot.
The stock hammer in a 392 is about the same weight as yours but a shorter stroke so it struggles with retaining air at maybe 1500 psi or less.
Take the formula and try different values other than 90% until you get 2000 psi for 800 fps. That will be your pumping efficiency.
The smaller.058 inlet hole will always be better than a larger one, no need to test that. There is no oil vortex effect.
Where your big jumps in chronograph numbers come from could be from the poor valve stem length protruding from the valve.
At that pump level something may be bouncing or something ?
3/8 is standard in the 392 and about the same for the 362 .
I have tested clay on the 392 hammer and at low pumps it bottoms out and at higher pumps the clay is thicker. I guess that is the same in all pcp and msp. A pump and dump doesn’t need a lot of hammer science like a pcp. The short  valve stem is a design flaw in the DF2 and shows as people lighten the spring to tune a pump and dump application.
I would address that by using the crosman Maurauder poppet.

I still think one should be careful pushing the unique pump linkage too hard . Regardless of the number of pumps to get there using the 14.3 pellets: 3.0cc stock valve 800fps
4.5cc valve 875 fps
I don’t own one just guessing the strain on the pump linkage.

[Nvreloader]

Hi Charles
Thank you for that information, I'll play with the formula's later tonight.
A couple of questions, if you don't mind, I have never messed with a pumper before.

I have 1 valve with .156.2" dia thru all air passageways,
the other valve has the .058" inlet and .136" TP air passageways, (new OEM replacement valve)
I have never touched the throats on either valve, IIRR both a .180" dia., leave alone or change?

Would it be better to bush the .156.2" (original OEM valve) inlet airway back to which dia,
either .140", (.102" OEM dia), or .058"? and leave all other airways the same .156" dia?
It won't be hard to bush the inlet hole dia.

Thank you for your time and trouble,
Don

[Psipumper]

Don
The smallest inlet hole is best. The pumper modders have long added pins to the inlet check valve to extend into the hole to close that air space . I prefer to use the small.040 hole instead because no danger of the pin coming loose and the math shows a pin with.005 clearance is the same air space as the .040 hole.
Depends on the length of the hole how much headspace you eliminate.
    Since your gun reaches a point where the velocity no longer increases with more pumps. I would assume the headspace is enough that the pressure in the valve is equal to the pressure within the air tube at the bottom of the pump stroke not allowing any more air to enter the valve. My thinking would be 49cc of air at 14.7 atmospheric pressure compressed to .35 of headspace: 49 divided by .35= 140
Now we take 14.7 psi x 140 = 2058 psi. In this example, no matter how many times you pump the valve pressure remains at 2058 psi.
You had mentioned the pump lever backing up.030 at the end of stroke so that could be quite a bit of headspace added. Sure you don’t want to bind with cam over but the air pressure pushing back against the piston during pumping is considerably more than a tight adjustment adds.

When it comes to pressure discharge during shot cycle. It all depends on the pressure and valve size .
With the smaller valves the porting may not gain as much from being too large.  As yours is at around 3cc you may be good at .156 on the transfer port. The throat is on the small side and would be better at .203 and perhaps an undercut valve stem.
  Seems like it flows pretty decent now like it is. Lots of possibilities but I wouldn’t think the gains would be much improvement in the port size.
Perhaps just try undercutting the valve stem.

Charles

[Nvreloader]

Thanks Charles

I just installed the new OEM replacement valve, .058" inlet and .136" TP,
this is the test results,
Test I
1= 242 fps
2= 255 fps
3= 380 fps
4= 479 fps
5= 528 fps
6= 531 fps
7= 501 fps
8= 495 fps
9= 501 fps
10= 501 fps
11= 15 pumps @ 501 or less fps, appears to be stalled out on pumped air. 

Same test format as all the rest of the tests, Oiled, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains,
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways were OEM dimensions, No air left after any shot.

When I opened the OEM stock valve, I found that the top tapered sealing valve
has a very distinct step/ring that measures approx .200" dia
and was stuck in the tapered section of the valve,
the rear poppet face was also stuck in the tapered air hole.

It appear that under pressure both of these seals/poppets are sticking,
due to the tapered sections on each end of the valve.
This may be the reason for the weird and quirky tests results...........

I'll have to use a .375" a piloted counterbore to mill a flat face on each end
and then make Peek valve poppet and seals to fit.

Summary of all the tests
     Test       A     B    C    D     E    E-1   F     G     H    H-1   I
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-259-269-269-262--252-236=242
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393-377--305-367=255
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452-390--383-449=380
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479-436--416-495=479
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538-488--449-511=528
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623-498--524-574=531
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646-639--567-597=501
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652-754--600-613=495
9 pumps= 652-651-688-659-662------708-810--633-757=501
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728-833-690-813=501
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744-833-711-856=501
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770-833-754-869=501
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770-833-801
14 pumps= 680----------------721------770-833-801
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741-770-833-801
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.

(A Test)
Here is the  full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length,14 gr Crosman ammo
 
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed. A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"

(C Test)
I just finished the 1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"

(D Test)
I just finished the 1 >15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(E-1 Test)
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests.

(F Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr
and Hammer spring weight of 9-10#'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Flat wire,
25 coils, 14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(G Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(H Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(H-1 Test)
Oiled, no other changes

(I Test)
Installed the new OEM replacement valve, .058" inlet and .136" TP, all air passageways OEM stock, Oiled, Same test format as all the rest of the tests,
Alum Hammer weight at 533grains, Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long,
weight = 8-9#'s, 14 gr Crosman ammo. 
All air passageways were OEM dimensions, No air left after any shot.
 

Thanks,
Your thoughts and suggestions................
Tia,
Don

[HPP-Mechanic]

The stock valve/tp, breech&barrel are better sized for .177.  The .177 guns are seeing 825+ fps w/15pumps, and 800fps with 10 pumps.

[Nvreloader]

HPP
Thanks,
I think I have to go back and look in the notes, as there is a difference in the hole sizes
of the 2 different OEM valves, I am finding out.

My OEM valve hole size was .102" for the inlet and .136" for the TP hole size,
then I opened everything up to .145" and got the best reading so far.
I am shooting for 750-800 fps at 10 pumps..

Then I got froggy and opened all up to .156", with the tapered seating,
just to see the results, which left me dangling off a limb,
but I learned the difference on the hole sizing and tapered sealing seats etc. 

I strongly believe KNOW that the tapered sealing and poppet seats are a bad design,
the plastic sealing ends are sticking in the tapered sealing holes,
and causing those weird/quirky test results, doing some careful designing
to convert standard poppet seating, ie- flat faced with Delron/Peek material.

Since I have the replacement valve, which I'll leave in stock configuration for now,
I can bush the hole and reduce the size, then install standard seating for the sealing holes,
and retest again, in the first valve.. makes it nice to have 2 valves to work with.

First time dealing with a MS Pumper, so I have a steep learning curve to get thru.......LoL.
Psi Pumper has been a great source of info and help.
At least the next DF shooter can learn from all this info/tests, and I can start on the accuracy end,
I hope it likes those WC NOE pellets, as the Starlings/Hosp just hate them........   

Your thoughts and suggestions........
Tia,
Don

[Nvreloader]

OK Guys
The mad DragonFly tester? is at it again, dug out the Peek rod and 3mm drill rod,
got a .375" Dia piloted counterbore, to make flat faced sealing seats, on the top and bottom,
internal seats..

Thoughts and suggestion on lathing the Peek poppet and top check valve parts,
1. Keep the same dimensions as OEM parts, (can use OEM spring),
2. Lengthen the valve stem to .375" longer than OEM stock length,
3. What else ??

Retest all the hammer spring weights? It will be 1 - 15 rd test per spring weight.
Springs Spec's/Dimensions
OEM original = 18/19#s, (3.140")
OEM replacement = 13/14 #'s, (3.560")
Flat Wire spring = 11/12 #s, (5" Full length)
Reduced Flat Wire = 8/9#s (2.50")
Storm Rider spring = 6/7#s (3.640")

When these new peek parts are installed, I'll test the same as the "I" test,
and I'll be using the OEM valve with the .058" inlet and .156" exit holes, with no changes
unless there is a better option preferred.

I am curious to see if I get those quirky readings, with these new Peek seats.

Your thoughts and suggestion.............
Thanks,
Don

[splitbeing]

Very interested to see the test results with the sealing ends no longer sticking in the tapered holes!

If the valve stem has also been lengthened, it might be hard to tell to what extent the stem length is responsible for changes and to what extent the new sealing ends are responsible in the upcoming test.

Mad dragonfly tinkerer... that would be a good GTA title below your username, Don!

[Nvreloader]

SB
Thanks
I am curious just what makes this AG tick, it has given me a quick/brief look,
then the best results disappeared again.......Lol 
I have always said that the problems lie in the valve, in MHO.

As soon as the rest of the parts get here, I finish the valve with
Peek poppets/seals and re do the "I" test, I keep everything the same,
with just the changes to the sealing check and poppet parts.

Then I open the inlet hole to .100" and use the .140" holes
that provided the best results in the "G" test.
I also have a new Replacement hammer spring to test at 3.560" long x .385"
O/S dia x .310" I/S dia x .036" dia wire x 13 #'s weight, coil bound = .750"

I am wondering what would happen by making a long valve stem
to around .375" length, when the hammer strikes/rest on the stem,
would the extra length cause a problem with pushing the poppet head
in deeper inside the valve and jamming the spring between
the check seal and poppet head.

I'll make a long valve stem also, then I can test both to see the results. 
I'll test the stock length first, then the longer one last.

Playing around with the valve psi pressure formula, and found that 84.3 %
= 2003.47 psi at 10 pumps, my goal spot @750-800 fps.
This is just about what I tested at 10 pumps.

Your thoughts and suggestions.......
Tia,
Don

[splitbeing]

This is an awesome plan, Don! All variables controlled except for one change on each test, a clear target, and a clear enough hypothesis regarding how to get there based on some evidence. Love it. Good questions too, regarding the poppet stem length. Really enjoying being along for the ride and learning a lot.

[Nvreloader]

SB
The 3mm valve stem rod came in to day, I turned (rough out) both poppet
and check valve seal.
Right now I only have just over .125" stem movement when the valve is back together,
with a .375" long stem.

I hope that is enough??

The counterbore didn't show up today even thou the email said it was delivered today??
More later,
Thanks,
Don

[Nvreloader]

OK guys
I dug out my Peek rods and found that I have 2 different types of Peek,
one is tan colored and a little harder than the white stick,
so I made dual check valves and poppet heads, out of each color.

Made 2 valve stems that are about .450" long, than the OEM .180" stems.
I'll lap all the parts in to get good sealing, before using.

I have just over .310" of travel before the poppet stops
against the end of the check valve head, in both colors.
That should be enough travel distance, when struck by the hammer?

Your thoughts and suggestions...............before I'll start testing around 9AM,
providing the wind is half way quite.

Tia,
Don

[Psipumper]

OK guys
I dug out my Peek rods and found that I have 2 different types of Peek,
one is tan colored and a little harder than the white stick,
so I made dual check valves and poppet heads, out of each color.

Made 2 valve stems that are about .450" long, than the OEM .180" stems.
I'll lap all the parts in to get good sealing, before using.

I have just over .310" of travel before the poppet stops
against the end of the check valve head, in both colors.
That should be enough travel distance, when struck by the hammer?

Your thoughts and suggestions...............before I'll start testing around 9AM,
providing the wind is half way quite.

Tia,
Don

The poppet bottoming out may work but I usually avoid that condition by shortening something like the check valve or something. The poppet stem  protruding .375 out from the valve for the hammer to strike is enough. You have it at .450 now? Shortening to .375 would get .075 less to bottom out then the rest could be taken off the check valve.
  The peek is most likely too hard to make the check valve from. Teflon is what crosman pumpers use .
Ain’t saying it’s impossible though.
I try to stay away from peek poppets  because they can be difficult to seal on the first pump .
Last one I did, I had to use a heavy valve spring for it to seal.
Hope it works easier for you.

Charles

[splitbeing]

This is exciting

[Nvreloader]

Hi Charles
I made up the Peek check seal/poppets to fit the tapered holes,
as my straight counterbore has not arrived yet, I thought I would test this type first
when go to the flat faced sealing lips, if needed.
I also have Delron for the seals/poppets, which is the main material I normally use
for this type of parts. Very easy to make these parts to change if needed......

I got the spring seats a little long, and have shortened them down so
I have the hammer striking the rear of the valve (same as OEM),
but have the .375" stem length from the rear of the valve..

I also added a long nose to fit the air intake hole (regardless of size dia)
and this nose is .010" smaller dia than the inlet hole dia, and flush with the face of the valve.
Before, I had just the hole dia straight to the face of the sealing seal.

Thanks Guys,
Your thoughts and suggestions..............
Don
ps, looks like no wind today............

[Nvreloader]

OK Guys
Here is the latest test, same test format as all the above tests.
All I can say, I don't believe these fps readings, will reshoot again,
ran out of ammo, will resupply asap.
Note, there is no 700 fps readings, which is strange..........
Heard strange muzzle reports around  12-15 tests.

Test J
1= 223 fps -
2= 357 fps -
3= 452 fps -
4= 508 fps -
5= 515 fps -
6= 528 fps -
7= 538 fps -
8= 570 fps -
9= 577 fps -
10= 603 fps -
11= 620 fps -
12= 643 fps -
13= 898 fps -
14= 928 fps -
15= 980 fps -

(J test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and poppet, .180" air inlet hole,
this air check seal had a .170" nose that fit into the inlet hole,
this nose was flush at the top of valve.

OEM spring. Valve stem lengthened to .375" from rear of valve, from the stock .180" length, Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot, in any of the above tests.

Thanks All,
Your thoughts and suggestions,
Toa,
Don


Summary of all the tests
     Test       A     B    C    D     E    E-1   F     G     H    H-1    I      J
1 pump=  265-288-262-255-259-269-269-262--252-236=242=223
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393-377--305-367=255=357
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452-390--383-449=380=452
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479-436--416-495=479=508
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538-488--449-511=528=515
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623-498--524-574=531=528
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646-639--567-597=501=538
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652-754--600-613=495=570
9 pumps= 652-651-688-659-662------708-810--633-757=501=577
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728-833-690-813=501=603
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744-833-711-856=501=620
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770-833-754-869=501=643
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770-833-801-----------=898
14 pumps= 680----------------721--------------------------------=928
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741---------------------------=980
There was no extra air left after any pump test.

(A Test)
Full 15 pump test x 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM Hammer spring is 18/19#'s at max compression, (coil bound), 3.150" long,
.390" dia  O/S dim, x  .300" I/S dim, with 15 coils.
Hammer weight is 876 grains x .760" dia, Hammer travel distance of 1.100",
with a valve stem protrusion of .180". 14gr Crosman ammo
 
Stock valve = Bbl TP hole is .134" Dia, Action TP Hole is .134" Dia,
Air inlet hole = .100" Dia by .180" long,
valve stem length protrusion of .180" at the end of the valve,
Brass TP has a hole Dia of .136" x .295" tall x .356" dia.
Valve spring =1.475" long by .295" O/S dia, 12 coils, spring weight of 3.5#'s,

 
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, using a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"
nothing else changed, 14 gr Crosman ammo


(C Test)
1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman ammo

(D Test)
1 >15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number,
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(E-1 Test)
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests.
14 gr Crosman ammo

(F Test)
Same test as all the previous tests,
the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr, Hammer spring weight of 9-10#'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Flat wire,
25 coils, 14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head,14 gr Crosman ammo
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), air filter removed at valve inlet.

(G Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(H Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(H-1 Test)
Oiled, no other changes

(I Test)
Installed the new OEM replacement valve, .058" inlet and .136" TP,
all air passageways OEM stock, Oiled, Same test format as all the above tests,
Alum Hammer weight at 533grains, Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long,
weight = 8-9#'s, 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways were OEM dimensions.

(J Test)
Used a valve with Peek air inlet seal and poppet, .180" air inlet hole,
this seal had a .170" nose that fit into the inlet hole, this nose was flush at the top of valve,
OEM spring. Valve stem lengthened to .375" from rear of valve, from the stock .180" length, Same test format as above tests, Alum Hammer, Flat wire hammer spring,
airways opened up to .156" Dia. 14gr Crosman ammo.
No air left after any shot, in any of the above tests.

[Back_Roads]

 I wonder if the poppet isn't sticking where the missing 700's were to be ?  not enough fflow to keep it open vs valve pressure .

[Nvreloader]

Hi James
I am not sure what is going on, every time I make an adjustment the bottom end
get smoother readings and I lose the higher top end. I did replace the pump rod
head "O" ring, and I believe that caused the "outa" normal spec's fps at the top end.

I personally like the "G" and "H1" readings, I am not chasing top fps,
just a good uniform readings up to 12 pumps max, I prefer 10 pumps @ 750/850 fps,
as long as the accuracy is there, which comes first in my book.
I am curious which of the pumps will produce the best accuracy at 25 > 50 yds?

Since I have 3 different valves, I think I set up one and redo the G & H1 tests again,
just to make sure there wasn't a monkey wrench in the works somewhere.......LoL = me.

Your thoughts and suggestions.........

Back to the drawing board, again.   
Thanks,
Don

[splitbeing]

x2 on H1 test as best so far (given objectives).  The gun seems to be stabling increasing fps in predictably smaller increments with increasing number of pumps (except for the one jump from 600ish to 750ish). Suggests a healthy setup that might last over time. Also higher fps than the G test.