GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Diana Airguns => Topic started by: phoebeisis on December 08, 2021, 12:02:48 PM
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My Diana 350 .177 finally arrived about 7pm last night
It was well packed-Numrich knows their business-they even taped folded bubble wrap to the inner box to preven movement in the outer box
I pulled it out-eyeballed it
It was HEAVILY OILED-
Seems I remember some member mentioning that one brand-forget which-heavily oiled their guns-maybe in case it spent a long time on shelf.
Well I cocked it-really easy to cock- put in my usual 5.2 grain lead free Flat nose Daisy pellet-
Aimed-fired
BAM-the report was like a cannon a black powder cannon-and a HUGE CLOUD of nasty black smoke erupted-filled hallway
Yeah DUMB to not have anticipated the Dieseling-but this was much more than other new guns-much more
No my ears were not ringing-but close-
Anyway after adjusting sight-it shoots dead on at 10 meters-standing freehand
Observations
1)Pretty gun-pretty wood-points nicely -not front heavy to me-the 460-despite being shorter-feels slightly front heavy-the 350-no
2) It-and the box-only marked DIANA no RWS and no weird name like UMAREX-in 2015 my 460 arrived with all 3 names on the box-
3) 2018 manufacture date
4) very easy to cock-worlds easier than my Crosman NP Phantom .22 that has more stiction than you would believe-easier than the HW77 and the 460 and the TX200-
Really easy to cock! Easy to load of course-despite od fumbling hands and tiny .177 pellets
5) Nice sights but I will change front to green fiber optic-bad eyes
6) cuts very clean holes-must produce plenty of velocity-30 shots in still dieseling
I am very satisfied-reminds me of my 1st air rifle-1963 mail order Czech made rifle-small easy to cock-
7) it is just over 8.25 lbs-about .2 lighter than the 460 which is just under 8.5 lbs-it is long but not really front heavy to me
Thanks all
Charlie
PS Yogi suggested I wear muffs-should have read that before setting off first shot-literally like a black powder rifle -BLAST AND NASTY SMOKE-filled hallway! Did not cause ear ringing
but close-I probaly will always wear plugs with it-noisier than the .22 460-probably supersonic with those Daisy 5.2 grain pellets
PPS It is prettier than the picture shows-clean looking rifle- it does have a cheek piece that would suggest it is right handed-but I shoot left handed-and right-I didn't even notice that-
so it is ambidextrous despite cheep piece
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Thanks for the update!
You might want to check out Hector's guide on how to run in your bore initially. It's a fun little process.
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-diana-430l-second-entry (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-diana-430l-second-entry)
I think we already covered in the other thread that you gotta start using some heavier pellets than those 5.2s !
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I spent 2 days of my last vacation using Hector's run in method. But the first real 10 ahot group I shot was under 1/4" at 18 yards so I'm not going to complain. I would also say use heavier pellets. I don't use anything under 8 grains in my HW95 and I'm pretty sure the 350 is a step up in power from mine.
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My Diana’s have been quite literally OVERPACKED WITH PISTON LUBE. They all shot like firearms out of the box. I had to clean them up. I have also had a recent Weihrauch with a super dirty/lubed barrel that needed a good cleaning.
Also a 5 grain pellet out of a 350 is probably breaking the time barrier. :D
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Funny, my 2015 Diana 350 Mag was dry as bone inside. It also had a trashed piston seal.
Cocking effort is highly subjective, dependent on individual physiques and technique, but I'm surprised at your impression of the 350 Mag being easier to cock than a HW77 or a TX200. The full-power 350 Mag has a substantial cocking effort, it's deffo a magnum in that regard, too, although less demanding than some other magnums. I would think that something is amiss, by the cocking being very easy. But hey, highly subjective.
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My understanding is Numrich bought this batch of Diana’s straight from the factory.... thus the lack of other markings such as RWS, etc. on them.
At least that’s what I was told.
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Glad you like it.
Check your stock screws after every shooting session.
Check to make sure your barrel pivot bolt is not to tight or too loose.
Enjoy! ;)
-Y
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My understanding is Numrich bought this batch of Diana’s straight from the factory.... thus the lack of other markings such as RWS, etc. on them.
At least that’s what I was told.
Same. I personally consider that more attractive and of greater value. Who wants a middle man that did nothing besides import and bump up the price? I'd much prefer the actual manufacturer who actually created something.
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That's a beauty of a beast you have there, hope you enjoy.
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Not trying to be rude. Really I'm not. But trying such a light weight pellet in a 350mag is asking for detonation.
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Not trying to be rude. Really I'm not. But trying such a light weight pellet in a 350mag is asking for detonation.
The heavier the pellet the more likely the gun will diesel because a higher peak compression pressure is reached. Even then, it may not exceed the speed of sound, so you won't hear it dieseling, but you will see the smoke.
The lighter the pellet the more likely the pellet will leave the muzzle at super velocity - even without dieseling. Some people assume the crack of a light pellet is due to "detonation". It is due to it being too light for the power of the airgun.
A .177 350 in stock US tune wants to shoot at 20 FPE. It might not get to 20 FPE with 5 grain pellets (unless it is dieseling - which can happen with factory lube), but it almost certainly will shoot supersonic. As amusing as the crack is, you are going to find that pellets over 9 grain in weight will do much better. Anything less than 8 grains is really too light for the 350, and probably contributes to piston slam at the end of its forward travel. Hard on the piston seal, stock screws and scopes. Just say no to light pellets...
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Thanks all
Wrote a too long reply-will compress it-thanks all
Yogi-you were right-20th shot it spit the front sight 8 or so feet down the hallway-no damage- Yeah should have checked EVERYTHING-but I wanted to shoot it soooo badly
Crude calculations indicate the rifle was traveling well over 10 fps maybe 16fps forward to launch the sight that far- the sight had to fall for .5 sec -54" hold height so fell for .5 sec or so
Traveled 8 feet in 1/2 sec means 16fps horizontally-even if it was less how in the world can a 8lb rifle get that much forward velocity??
Even if it was just 5 feet-10 fps-how in the world 8 lb rifle 10 fps forward velocity
Target-my checking what a 10.4 grain pellet would feel like- 2 5.2 grain pellets stacked-nice soft recoil quieter too-nice clean holes-hard to see that-but clean
Yes I am going to find a way to shoot heavier pellets-
My pointed .177 SSP are not the claimed 5 grains-they are 4.2 GRAINS- the flat nosed Daisy are 5.2 grains no wt claim on box-guessing 4.2 must hit 1250 or so-
not sure what they sould like-plugs or muffs
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The lighter the pellet the more likely the pellet will leave the muzzle at super velocity - even without dieseling. Some people assume the crack of a light pellet is due to "detonation". It is due to it being too light for the power of the airgun.
No, the crack is because the pellet created a mini sonic boom when it went faster than the speed of sound. A heavier pellet that exceeds the speed of sound will also "crack". ;)
-Y
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Quote:
The heavier the pellet the more likely the gun will diesel because a higher peak compression pressure is reached.
Subscriber, At first glance what you said would seem to be logical. But in practice, the opposite is true. Heavy pellets detonate less.
Firing a spring piston gun with
no pellet produces the most detonation.
When firing a new spring piston gun that is loaded with protective lube, it is best to
start out with a heavy pellet, or even fire two light to medium weight pellets at once until the gun burns off or blows out some of the lube.
Burning lube is very different from detonation.
I have been using 30 weight motor oil for many years in springers with leather piston seals.
After lubing I always start out by firing two light-to-medium weight pellets at once,
then heavy pellets, before switching to normal weight pellets.
If I start out by firing normal or light weight pellets, the gun will always detonate.
If you give it "a shot", you'll find that what I'm saying is true. ;-)
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I think what I stated implies exactly that. With the added statement that "heavier pellets not dieseling" is bogus. Just because they stop cracking does not mean heavier pellets are not dieseling. If heavier pellets are supersonic, they crack to.
So, "no" to you "no", or I might be tempted to define the word "is" to you :) .
The lighter the pellet the more likely the pellet will leave the muzzle at super velocity - even without dieseling. Some people assume the crack of a light pellet is due to "detonation". It is due to it being too light for the power of the airgun.
No, the crack is because the pellet created a mini sonic boom when it went faster than the speed of sound. A heavier pellet that exceeds the speed of sound will also "crack". ;)
-Y
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If I start out by firing normal or light weight pellets, the gun will always detonate.
Thanks Jeff, for bothering to lead me to your way of thinking:
How do you know if a given shot detonates? If the answer is because detonation causes supersonic velocity, then my explanation above is still a good one - not disproven. On the other hand; if dieseling is produced with only the back pressure of air flow through the TP (dry firing), then there is another mechanism at play. If this is observed to happen, then I must be willing to consider how this is possible:
I can imagine that higher air flow velocity from an uncushioned piston (dry firing) is better able to "scrub" lube off the compression chamber, TP or barrel wall; and to atomize more of it, so it lights easier. In that case, even with a light or no pellet, there must be enough pressure to increase the temperature above the ignition point of the oil vapor.
How does one measure the extent of dieseling in a springer? I would use the amount of smoke and the increase in pellet energy as metrics for how much dieseling there is with a given pellet.
Dieseling should make the sound of the shot louder, but as soon as the pellet is going supersonic it will be much louder. A light pellet may be over or near the speed of sound anyway; so a little dieseling may put it over and make it super loud. If a light pellet has an extra 2 FPE over what is seen after dieseling stops, but a heavier pellet has an extra 5 FPE, then I claim that the heavier pellet is dieseling with greater intensity because it gained more energy. Even if it is not as loud because it is still subsonic.
So, my goal is to prove a statement that has been repeated "forever" about heavy pellets dieseling less, with a concrete test. There are many explanations for observed phenomena relating to shooting that are incorrect, but repeated anyway. Samples of such beliefs are stated at the bottom of this overly long post.
The fact that dry firing can provoke dieseling at all, is interesting. I have not dry fired a springer in 50 years, so I have never seen evidence of this. That does not mean it does not happen. I definitely consider dry firing a springer more abusive that light dieseling that produces a little smoke. Perhaps the explanation is more "air scrubbing", and that the piston "slaps" the compression chamber so violently that the air battles to get out of the gap, raising the pressure and temperature to ignition point. Or, that the piston slam noise and vibration are mistaken for dieseling. Ditto for light pellets - which brings me to this:
Even if it was just 5 feet-10 fps-how in the world 8 lb rifle 10 fps forward velocity
Simple. The 350's piston is heavy. When the piston slams into the end of the compression chamber, from shooting a pellet that is so light that it offers hardly any resistance to air flow down the barrel, the whole air rifle is slammed forward by the piston impact, at high enough speed to "throw" the front sight that far. The sight flying off forwards is a clue to the abuse imparted by shooting light pellets (never mind dry firing).
Now, arguing about dieseling when shooting a piston slammingly light pellet, is like surgery for an ingrown toenail, where the nail is kept and the rest of the body incinerated as medical waste. Stop shooting light pellets in magnum springers. It is damaging to the air rifle, regardless of whether dieseling occurs or is "excessive" or not.
Amusing assumptions, based on real observations:
I was a conscript in the SADF almost 40 years ago. My Boer shooting instructor told us that a rifle bullet reaches its highest velocity 100 meters down range. He knew this because his grandfather told him so. His grandfather knew this because his 7 mm Mauser would shoot through a Kudu broadside at over 100 meters, but would stop short of full penetration when shot from 50 meters. The conclusion reached from this observation was that the bullet was travelling faster at over 100 meters than 50 meters. Reasonable conclusion, but wrong. If they had bothered to look at the width or more precisely, volume of the wound channel they may have concluded correctly. If they compared the recovered bullets against the ones that made it through, they might have notified a difference in the degree of riveting. Of course, shooting through a Kudu makes finding the bullet to look at it difficult and hardly a priority :) .
My own Boer grandfather told me that his 7 mm Maser shot "flat" to 200 meters. He explained that the bullet was so fast it did not drop at all. until it had travelled 200 meters. This was really just an observation that the point blank range was 200 meters, at the lowest sight setting. That no compensation for the trajectory was required to 200 meters. Not that gravity had zero effect - even if that seemed like the practical explanation.
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I once had a gun dealer tell me that bullets didn't expand well at close range
because they hadn't had time to heat up! ???
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I once had a gun dealer tell me that bullets didn't expand well at close range
because they hadn't had time to heat up! ???
Well, that sounds like USDA certified hooey. That said, sometimes nonsense statements, or gross generalization do have a factual foundation. One that is often expressed out of context.
Do bullets heat up in flight? My guess would have been that they cool down after leaving the barrel; until they strike the target. Apparently I was wrong:
Here is a video about bullet BC dropping unexpectedly in flight, over long range. Using a LabRadar helped Hornady figure out that the plastic "ballistic tips" were melting in flight, making the bullet tips blunter. The solution was using a plastic with a higher melting point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnpwnYc0Sh8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnpwnYc0Sh8)
I would bet that all bullets don't heat significantly in flight. That supersonic bullets, leaving the muzzle at Mach 2.5 to 3 heat up a lot at the tip, should not be a surprise. Not, if one considers that certain stealth aircraft made from titanium grow in flight from the skin friction - even at high altitude.
SR-71 designed to leak fuel on the ground: https://aero-space.us/2020/02/15/heres-why-the-sr-71-was-actually-designed-to-leak-fuel-all-over-the-tarmac/ (https://aero-space.us/2020/02/15/heres-why-the-sr-71-was-actually-designed-to-leak-fuel-all-over-the-tarmac/)
When developing the aircraft, engineers accounted for the temperature fluctuations that it would experience. More specifically, they realized that the plane’s components would heat up as the aircraft gained more speed.
This friction would inevitably prompt the plane’s body to expand, so they had to fit some pieces together loosely. The fuselage panels, in particular, were purposely positioned farther apart. These loose-fitting parts are what produced the leakage, but it was a necessary design quality to prevent overexpansion. As the SR-71 reached 2,200 miles per hour, the panels enlarged as expected. Fortunately, there was enough room between them to allow for this inflation.
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Hatcher's Notebook discusses bullet penetration related to velocity. The bullets at closer range are still moving so fast at close range that they begin to tear apart on impact. So this has been tested and as stated before, they aren't faster 100 yards down range.
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...they aren't faster 100 yards down range.
Where would the energy come from to increase the bullet velocity, after it clears the muzzle? It has to start slowing down due to air resistance, as soon as there is no longer high pressure gas pushing on it from the rear.
It is laughable that anyone would think otherwise. Even more so, an instructor in any military. Some people are good at following orders, without question. Others, not so much :)
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Peter.- glad to see you back and so "spirited", LOL!
I think that the difference between you and Jeff is purely semantical. For you, dieseling is the amount of energy contributed to the pellet by lubricant combustion. For Jeff, detonation is the loud sound.
So, in essence I think both of you are right, you're just disagreeing on how to call things, when AaMoF, you ARE talking of different things.
I have also been guilty of saying that heavy pellets "diesel less", when in reality I should have said that they detonate less. But sometimes, we all get wrapped up in the established terminology simply because we have not had the chance to think of a different term. Like the Pellet Dwell Time vs. Lock Time discussion we had some months ago.
Anyway, glad to see you back in action.
One more comment we seldom make: the human mind is a peculiar instrument and sometimes acts on assumptions.
It is true that projectiles (specially slender spitzer projectiles) start decelerating LESS after the first 50-150 yards (depending on the conditions), so to the human mind that EXPECTS a time delay to the "thump" of the projectile into the target, it may seem that the bullet accelerated. No it didn't, but it DID increase it BC when the bullet "went to sleep" (stopped yawing, preceding and nutating).
Also some pellets go to sleep after the first 10-20 yards, so the groups at very close range are not as good as the pellets at mid range. Which is also one of the main reasons why I deeply dislike the 3/8" kz's in FT at short range. ;-)
Lastly, yes, Charles should not be shooting super-light pellets in that 350 or the 460, it is an overstressing of the gun.
Hopefully, he will find some 10 grainers that can be economical enough to shoot and shoot decently for him.
BTW H&N is saturated and running at full steam, but the 0.22" pellets are getting priority.
JSB is also running at full steam, but lead pellets are getting priority
So, gettiing the heavy non-lead pellets we have been asking BOTH companies to make will need some more time till all this pandeminc situation begins to stabilize.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Don't think I will get into the why the front sight flew forward so far and soooo fast
I treated it like a pitcher throwing a baseball- speed can't be more than hand speed-
not like a bat hitting a baseball(with an elastic sorta impact) where speed can be more than bat speed-elastic sorta collision
It occurs to me that if the ignition/detonation of the oil-happens well before the piston reaches touch down
The pressure in the chamber will RESIST-maybe even prevent the piston from crashing onto the breech-
so perhaps the ignition detonation actually PREVENTED the piston from hitting the breech
Now the ignition-detonation will push most of the rifle FORWARD-while pushing the piston and spring BACKWARDS-sorta the reverse of the initial recoil
The piston might not touch down-but there will still be a violent forward push on rifle-pressure pushes on front of compression chamber
So 1st recoil push is on rear of compression chamber by spring-typical gun recoil
2nd recoil push is on front of compression chamber- pressurized gases -the OIL explodes-pushing on front of compression chamber-opposite recoil
Maybe detonation prevents piston from touching-can still have violent recoil-gas will explode ignite violently-push on piston and front of compression chamber-both move-rifle forward-
piston reward ward-site moves forward then slips off when gun"stops"
Pure guess-but the gun shoots great-
I will pull it apart eyeball seal-especially on 460 which had 3000 or more light-9 grain .22 pellets shot
Thanks
Charlie
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Maybe it's as simple a thing as a loose sight? It sounds like what you have experienced is what some call detonation, not deisling. The air which is compressed encompasses two things; vapors and airborne particles, plus latent heat. When it is suddenly compressed, the heat becomes concentrated (as in a heat pump), the temperature rapidly rises to a flash point for a split second. and any combustibles, well, they combust, hence deisling. Too much vapor from excess lubes will accelerate to the point of detonation. That shoves the piston back, sending energy in the form of a shock wave back into the spring. Too many such shocks will break the spring. Add to that piston rebound due to slam as a result of too light pellets. I would suggest doubling your light weight pellets. They will give the desired resistance in the breech plus may print well, not to mention give you (and the gun) a better shot cycle. Marginally expensive compared to a rebuild. And, for what it's worth, I would be loathe to over-analyze every facet of shooting. There's a lot less known about airgun performance than firearms. Folks have tried to analyze them and are still trying. I leave them to it, continuing to do the best with what I've got, lol.
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Maybe it's as simple a thing as a loose sight? It sounds like what you have experienced is what some call detonation, not deisling. The air which is compressed encompasses two things; vapors and airborne particles, plus latent heat. When it is suddenly compressed, the heat becomes concentrated (as in a heat pump), the temperature rapidly rises to a flash point for a split second. and any combustibles, well, they combust, hence deisling. Too much vapor from excess lubes will accelerate to the point of detonation. That shoves the piston back, sending energy in the form of a shock wave back into the spring. Too many such shocks will break the spring. Add to that piston rebound due to slam as a result of too light pellets. I would suggest doubling your light weight pellets. They will give the desired resistance in the breech plus may print well, not to mention give you (and the gun) a better shot cycle. Marginally expensive compared to a rebuild. And, for what it's worth, I would be loathe to over-analyze every facet of shooting. There's a lot less known about airgun performance than firearms. Folks have tried to analyze them and are still trying. I leave them to it, continuing to do the best with what I've got, lol.
Yep this ^
H&N lightweight pellets say "PCP Only" right on the tin to prevent people from damaging their guns. A very lightweight pellet in a magnum springer is asking for damaging detonation and a supersonic crack. As Hector also pointed out dieseling and detonation are different. Minor dieseling is normal, detonation, like the loud crack heard from a dry fire is not. Excessive dieseling can damage the gun. Detonation will certainly damage the gun. Determining if a gun is detonating as its shooting supersonic is not as easy when it's not. Generally smoke and oil smell is not a good thing. While it's common to new piston guns, it should clear in time with appropriate weight pellets. With lightweight pellets (or dry firing) guns are more likely to detonate. With heavier pellets they will diesel more but dieseling is far less damaging.
I'm not sure I understood the part of doubling the lightweight pellets, but I'm assuming he means doubling the weight. Not shooting two pellets through the gun at the same time. That should never be done as it might jam the gun.
Anyway enjoy your new rifle and do with it as you please. It's your gun but if you want it to last long I'd stay away from the light weight pellets. Personally I don't shoot anything lighter than 7.33 grains in my little 8 fpe Hw30s and nothing under 8 grains in my other mid power springers. A magnum like your 350 I'd be shooting at least an 8.44 grain pellet. I'm sure it's quite capable of shooting 10 grain pellets. Again it's your call and good luck.
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Thanks for the perspective, Hector
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I think it is fair to say that with an appropriate weight pellet, the piston in a springer does not crash into the end of the cylinder directly. The piston bounces on high pressure air, short of the end of the cylinder, then after the pellet has left the barrel (ideally), the piston slams into the cylinder, but after picking up speed from only a fraction of the full stroke.
Shooting a pellet that is too light may have the piston actually crash into the end of the cylinder. Apart from the crack that a light pellet may produce should it exceed the speed of sound, there will be harshness felt in the stock from the piston crash.
The question is, how much of a slapping sound would such a piston crash produce when firing a "too light" pellet? I can see that any slapping sound could be drowned out, or attributed to the pellet; actually or assumed to be supersonic. When dry firing, there is no pellet to be supersonic, but perhaps the air leaving the muzzle is supersonic. If not, then the piston slapping the end of the cylinder must be louder than when shooting even a light weight pellet.
Rather than me claim that dry firing can't produce enough pressure to raise the temperature to oil ignition point, perhaps I need to consider that there are at least two factors that produce dieseling (apart from available fuel droplets):
1. The compression ratio is an important factor. With no pellet loaded there is no numerical compression ratio, but there is an airflow velocity that will choke the flow through the TP. If choked flow velocity is reached, the pressure in the compression chamber would continue rising (assuming the piston has enough momentum and travel left before crashing).
2. The other factor that matters in diesel ignition is time. Compression needs to be fast, else the heat generated will dissipate and the temperature will not build to the ignition point. A piston that is not cushioned by a loaded pellet with be moving very fast. Perhaps the shorter time constant could make up for the lack of effective compression ratio, and still light oil vapor. Perhaps the friction of air through the TP could help increase the temperature.
My contention is still that if a light pellet causes piston slam, then dry firing would produce much harsher piston slam. That is going to produce violent vibration in the gun and audible sound. Could that sound and vibration be mistaken for detonation? Either way, someone with mechanical sympathy will avoid operating conditions that produce harness; whatever the source.
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How does one know what pellet weight is right for your springer?
There is no one answer, but generally it is the combination of pellet weight, "holding force" between skirt and breech cone, sealing and friction down the barrel that produces the highest pellet FPE (when there is not significant dieseling occurring). Any energy in the piston that is not transferred to the pellet has the potential to hammer the airgun mechanism.
Generally if you shoot pellets .177 from 5 to 14 grains, there will be some that produce higher and some lower FPE. This will happen at the light and heavy end of the pellet weight spectrum; with a range in the "middle" that produces near peak FPE.
Too heavy a pellet tends to produce excessive piston bounce and is known to be hard on the spring.
The simplest way to determine a "good pellet" is by a lack of harshness on firing. Often the velocity spread will be the narrowest in that range, with tighter groups. If you experience unexpected harshness, increase or decrease the pellet weight until the mechanism seems happy. You can revisit the search for the "best pellet" later after break-in and excess lube has burnt off.
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Maybe it's as simple a thing as a loose sight? It sounds like what you have experienced is what some call detonation, not deisling. The air which is compressed encompasses two things; vapors and airborne particles, plus latent heat. When it is suddenly compressed, the heat becomes concentrated (as in a heat pump), the temperature rapidly rises to a flash point for a split second. and any combustibles, well, they combust, hence deisling. Too much vapor from excess lubes will accelerate to the point of detonation. That shoves the piston back, sending energy in the form of a shock wave back into the spring. Too many such shocks will break the spring. Add to that piston rebound due to slam as a result of too light pellets. I would suggest doubling your light weight pellets. They will give the desired resistance in the breech plus may print well, not to mention give you (and the gun) a better shot cycle. Marginally expensive compared to a rebuild. And, for what it's worth, I would be loathe to over-analyze every facet of shooting. There's a lot less known about airgun performance than firearms. Folks have tried to analyze them and are still trying. I leave them to it, continuing to do the best with what I've got, lol.
Yep this ^
H&N lightweight pellets say "PCP Only" right on the tin to prevent people from damaging their guns. A very lightweight pellet in a magnum springer is asking for damaging detonation and a supersonic crack. As Hector also pointed out dieseling and detonation are different. Minor dieseling is normal, detonation, like the loud crack heard from a dry fire is not. Excessive dieseling can damage the gun. Detonation will certainly damage the gun. Determining if a gun is detonating as its shooting supersonic is not as easy when it's not. Generally smoke and oil smell is not a good thing. While it's common to new piston guns, it should clear in time with appropriate weight pellets. With lightweight pellets (or dry firing) guns are more likely to detonate. With heavier pellets they will diesel more but dieseling is far less damaging.
I'm not sure I understood the part of doubling the lightweight pellets, but I'm assuming he means doubling the weight. Not shooting two pellets through the gun at the same time. That should never be done as it might jam the gun.
Anyway enjoy your new rifle and do with it as you please. It's your gun but if you want it to last long I'd stay away from the light weight pellets. Personally I don't shoot anything lighter than 7.33 grains in my little 8 fpe Hw30s and nothing under 8 grains in my other mid power springers. A magnum like your 350 I'd be shooting at least an 8.44 grain pellet. I'm sure it's quite capable of shooting 10 grain pellets. Again it's your call and good luck.
Ron, I'm quite sure that Redfeather did suggest shooting two pellets at the same time. As long as they are against each other, they won't jam.
I've shot a fair amount of 7 grain wadcutters out of my HW30/R7's and the shot cycle is good...I don't think they are doing any harm, and the difference between 7
and 7.33 is probably splitting hairs.
7 grains is my minimum weight, though. (are there any lead pellets less that 7gr.? Beeman laser maybe...(I just looked, Lasers are 6.5gr.))
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Maybe it's as simple a thing as a loose sight? It sounds like what you have experienced is what some call detonation, not deisling. The air which is compressed encompasses two things; vapors and airborne particles, plus latent heat. When it is suddenly compressed, the heat becomes concentrated (as in a heat pump), the temperature rapidly rises to a flash point for a split second. and any combustibles, well, they combust, hence deisling. Too much vapor from excess lubes will accelerate to the point of detonation. That shoves the piston back, sending energy in the form of a shock wave back into the spring. Too many such shocks will break the spring. Add to that piston rebound due to slam as a result of too light pellets. I would suggest doubling your light weight pellets. They will give the desired resistance in the breech plus may print well, not to mention give you (and the gun) a better shot cycle. Marginally expensive compared to a rebuild. And, for what it's worth, I would be loathe to over-analyze every facet of shooting. There's a lot less known about airgun performance than firearms. Folks have tried to analyze them and are still trying. I leave them to it, continuing to do the best with what I've got, lol.
Yep this ^
H&N lightweight pellets say "PCP Only" right on the tin to prevent people from damaging their guns. A very lightweight pellet in a magnum springer is asking for damaging detonation and a supersonic crack. As Hector also pointed out dieseling and detonation are different. Minor dieseling is normal, detonation, like the loud crack heard from a dry fire is not. Excessive dieseling can damage the gun. Detonation will certainly damage the gun. Determining if a gun is detonating as its shooting supersonic is not as easy when it's not. Generally smoke and oil smell is not a good thing. While it's common to new piston guns, it should clear in time with appropriate weight pellets. With lightweight pellets (or dry firing) guns are more likely to detonate. With heavier pellets they will diesel more but dieseling is far less damaging.
I'm not sure I understood the part of doubling the lightweight pellets, but I'm assuming he means doubling the weight. Not shooting two pellets through the gun at the same time. That should never be done as it might jam the gun.
Anyway enjoy your new rifle and do with it as you please. It's your gun but if you want it to last long I'd stay away from the light weight pellets. Personally I don't shoot anything lighter than 7.33 grains in my little 8 fpe Hw30s and nothing under 8 grains in my other mid power springers. A magnum like your 350 I'd be shooting at least an 8.44 grain pellet. I'm sure it's quite capable of shooting 10 grain pellets. Again it's your call and good luck.
Ron, I'm quite sure that Redfeather did suggest shooting two pellets at the same time. As long as they are against each other, they won't jam.
I've shot a fair amount of 7 grain wadcutters out of my HW30/R7's and the shot cycle is good...I don't think they are doing any harm, and the difference between 7
and 7.33 is probably splitting hairs.
7 grains is my minimum weight, though. (are there any lead pellets less that 7gr.? Beeman laser maybe...(I just looked, Lasers are 6.5gr.))
Jeff I didn't mean shooting anything less than 7.33 was detrimental to the Hw30. I meant it's as light as I personally shoot in the guns. I have shot RWS Meisterkugeln 7 grain pistol pellets through them with great luck. I just can't find them reasonably priced anymore. I think the RWS Hobbies may be even lighter, I forget. My overall point was there's a reasonable pellet weight range for a given piston power plant. If you're attuned to your gun, you can feel where the shot cycle works best.
Also pellet fit has to do with initial back pressure too. A tight fitting light pellet will resist movement more than a loose heavy one. Jeff I'm sure you already know all this. I'm just posting this clarify my thoughts for anyone's future benefit.
As for shooting two pellets. You're a braver man than I to do it. I could see two square faced wadcutters possibly working but I'd still wouldn't try it. I could easily see a domed pellet spreading the skirt of the pellet in front of it and jamming. But, hey if you've done it successfully many times, your experience trumps my theory. I guess it was my left over powder burner squib fears talking.
Be well Jeff
Ron
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The OP mentioned stacking two pellets. If such a combination doesn't stick in the bore, it's better, I'm my opinion, than constantly slamming a piston.
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Sorry
I am frequently unclear in writing-and too wordy.
1)Yes I am shooting 2 pellets-one literally on top of the other..177 5.2 Flat nosed Daisy- 10.4 total-sound and recoil very restrained by comparison to single light pellet
.22 same story two 8.6 grain SSP-17.4 TOTAL- restrained report and recoil.
I have been doing this with the "plan" to perhaps perhaps "solder" the two together-and not damage the rifles-giving me "acceptable" by my standards-accuracy-I will eventually
mark them to see which shoots most accurately-top or bottom pellet-guessing bottom pellet.
2) The heaviest NOT LEAD PELLETS I have found are PENETRATORS- 8.6 grain crosman .177(sorta brown plastic non discarding sabot)-
and 16.7 crosman Red Plastic sabot.-they are about $18/100 in .22 about 12 cents in .177
3)Redfeather- the sight flew off on the 20th-30th shot-yes it was probably slightly loose-I was surprised how far/fast it traveled.
4)I don't know if the piston hits down on shots when the oil is ignited-perhaps the pressure spike is sooo high the piston is blasted back before actually making contact-just bouncing on
high pressure very hot gas.I don't know.I think some article suggested peak pressure in compression chamber 300 ATM- 4500 PSI-piston is 1 sq inch-so 4500 lbs of force-A LOT-
resisting touch down-for less than a blink of course
4)Ron/Bayman-you are right-I looked-in tiny print-for PCP rifles only-BUT the 25.77 grain Rabbit Magnum same the same thing-no mention on either tin of WHY-
But yes maybe on the light ones it is too hard on gun-on heavy ones-maybe they get stuck?? It would be nice if they would be clear on that point.
5) I don't use lead because it is poison and I only shoot indoors.Neighbors wouild freak if I was shooting these very RIFLE looking rifles outside.
The PENETRATORS are pretty heavy- and can be re-used to some extent-but the skirt can't be " re-spread" like the metal pellets.Pretty expensive-
I think the double metal pellet "thing" will work-
Plan B neuter the 350-but it shoots so well as constructed -not inclined to change spring-
6)Ron just read your explanation of WHY IT MIGHT JAM-I see you point-but yes I have done it maybe 100 times-I am going to color one of them to see which hits where -which is most
accurate-my guess is front pellet is the most accurate but?? I will test it by coloring one-capturing in 40-50 layers of cardboard
7)Ron remember several months back there was a discussion of aperture/peep sights? You found a nice set-for $60 you installed on I forgot what rifle-but the idea stuck with me
I put some 'BIG APERTURE on my 1377 1322-they are a work in progress-too tall-but seems to work
Well the GLOBE front sight on the Diana 350 seems to be WORKING GREAT FOR ME- correcting my eye problems to some degree-despite being huge-maybe 15mm or so-
I have never used a globe sight-but I think it is WHY- I shoot so well with the Diana 350-
I am a crummy shot-bad eyes- no depth perception and refractive problems and dry eys -but the Globe sight seems to make the sight
picture much more clear-something so simple-
Thanks all
Charlie
PS I get the concern over damaging the rifles-appreciate your help-and don't want to preach on the lead-wash your hands-shoot outside
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Hector
Your posts suggest that the air gun industry is actively working on lead free pellets?
I sure would like to see more choice and more interest-
I am surprised the Europeans are not pushing LEAD FREE PELLETS harder. in general Europe is a bit more "green" then the USA- and more intrusive.
In the USA Waterfowl being poisoned-30 years or so ago-brought about steel shot for hunters-their ox was being gored fewer ducks geese-so steel shot was not fought against hard
I don't hunt-brother does-but the resistance to steel shot was not that dramatic-despite it making many pricy shotguns not useable-
No really good reason why NOT LEAD pellets should be sooo expensive-
copper is maybe 4x the cost of lead but not lead pellets are 20x the cost of lead pellets-10-15 cents each
Besides-the copper can be recycled easily-target shooters would catch every pellet-recycle them
Air gun ranges could mine the pellets-mine them
Recycling lead is a bit hazardous-copper not at all.
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Charlie your concern about lead is somewhat understandable but is unbalanced to the actual danger. Lead has been demonized by many partly because it's moderately dangerous but mostly because people have made fortunes in lead abatement by scaring the public. Lead is not readily absorbed by the human body (or animals) under normal circumstances. I'm a 56 year old fisherman and have no traces of lead poisoning. Considering from as a small kid I've handled lots of lead pellets, bullets and sinkers. I used to bite down the split shots to crimp them on the line. I have a lead melting pot in my basement and pour my own jigs and have for decades. I probably shoot 50 plus pounds of lead pellets a year in my basement. If I don't have lead poisoning it's unlikely anyone will using a lick of common sense.
Now I'm not suggesting anyone put lead shot in their mouth but what I'm saying is with basic precautions like washing your hands after handling lead there's little actual danger. Years ago when my kids were toddlers I looked into the actual chances and dangers of lead exposure. The dangers to children are much greater than adults but even then I found out with simple precautions there was no actual health risk to them. They are now 20 and 22 and very smart and completely healthy. While I respect your decision to avoid lead I thought you should be informed of the real world level of the danger it presents. Btw for decades most people have been drinking water from lead pipes and more recently copper pipes soldered with lead solder. If lead was as dangerous as people are led to believe we'd all be dead or developmentally delayed.
Ohhh btw ballisticaly (spelling?) heavier lead pellets and bullets are better in many ways than lighter and harder tin, steel or copper.
Hey you do what works for you but please be careful not to propagate false fears. Lead is not as dangerous as most people were led to believe. Well unless you're shot with a lead bullet. Then it's very dangerous. Even then you'd be injured by the bullets destructive path and not the lead itself. Lots of Veterans and civilians have lead shrapnel deliberately left in their body because removing it would risk paralysis or death.
If you want to stay "safe" by paying several times more for ballistically inferior pellets and risk damaging your spring guns, that's up to you. I'm just saying that you don't have to.
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Ron
I never bring up lead poisoning here -because it riles folks up.
But it comes up whenever I mention the pellets I use-no way around it-
We will just have to disagree on lead. I never bring it up-but my pellets do.
In the mid 1970s I worked in a pediatric clinic-lead poisoning was very very common-manifested as anemia.They were thought to have been exposed
1) by inhaling paint dust-
2)or eating paint chips-lead oxide is said to be sweet
3)or by playing in lead contaminated streets-Tetraethyl lead??
Nowadays exposure in kids is still from lead paint-the dust or chips. Public housing developments had strict contract requirements back in the 1940's 1950s.
They literally specified lead paint-for pigment and for mold suppression- GOOD paint had high lead levels-Federally funded housing required good paint
Kids-in USA- exposure is still from lead paint-much less common than 40 years ago
In adults exposure is probably from the job-batteries maybe-or shooting ranges-but there is far less exposure than when I was a kid or young adult
I know quite a few shooters-competitive shooters-who have been treated for lead poisoning-levels around mid 20 Nanograms per 100 grams(actually 103 grams) of blood
so 20 parts per 100,000,000 1 part per 5,000,000 .Best guess is it is inhaling primer material Lead "styphnate" safe bet spelled wrong.
It is a touchy subject.-ENOUGH ON LEAD
I love my Diana 350 magnum -that sucker shoots GREAT! I have no idea why folks whine about how tough it is too shoot-you just need to lower your standards!!
It is a cannon and shoots exactly where you point it! And looks good doing it!!
I am going to cut open my BOX TARGET- see what it did to the 5.2 grain pellets-safe bet almost none will be re-useable
Thanks all
Charlie
PS Military and others changing primer to some barium compound-I think-
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For those of us that are of a certain age......Nobody knows how much smarter we would have been if not for leaded gasoline and lead paint. Just sayin', you can't prove a negative.
My office mate orders blood lead levels on all the kids that he sees up to age 3 if needed, and there are some exceptions for immigrant children that go upto age 16.
I only see old and stupid people. ;D
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Charles,
One reason why indoor target shooting air rifles are so low powered is concern about lead dust being created by impact with hard traps. (The main reason is that puncturing paper at 10 meters does not require much energy). The fact that Germany has a 5.5 FPE limit on airguns before they need a firearm license is probably another factor.
Anyway, if your primary concern is inhalation of lead dust, I suggest that you get a HW30 and a rubber mulch trap.
If you are concerned about handling lead pellets, get disposable finger cots.
If you are married to your 5.2 grain tin pellets, I suggest you get an HW30. It won't mind the light pellets and will be a lot of fun to shoot at indoor targets. Yes, it will feel like a toy compared to the 350.
I have a 350 in .177 and .22. They are beasts at 48" long. My .177 sounds harsh compared to the .22; unless I shoot 10+ grain pellets in it. I like shooting offhand, but quite frankly can no longer aim them very long because they are so long and heavy. Even my front and rear counterweights (blubber) can't seem to compensate for age related muscle atrophy.
My ideal weight and balance is the HW50. That at least feels like a real rifle, compared to the HW30. The HW50 is going to shoot your 5.2 grain pellets at a little over 950 FPS, which is a bit too fast, but may still work at short indoor ranges.
The HW30 should shoot the 5.2 grain pellets at about 840 FPS and would be an ideal match for such light pellets.
You don't have to worry about being "contrary" about your non-lead preference - until you campaign to make lead pellets illegal for the rest of us. It is a personal choice, like you preferring the 350 M(onster) for indoor shooting, when there are choices that appear to be better suited. I will say this, if you can shoot the 350 well, then shooting any low or medium powered springer will seem easy by comparison.
I would save money by shooting 7 grain lead pellets, and spend the savings on an HW30, and a soft trap - but am not going to suggest that you have to see things my way.
I suspect that two 5.2 grain pellets separate in flight; and that the sooner they separate, the closer the front one will impact to the point of aim. If you could join them, I wonder if they would be stable as one long pellet. I would be very interested to see them, after being caught in a water trap to minimize damage. I bet the rear pellet has its skirt blown out to form almost a cylinder. The front one's skirt is also likely compressed with long engagement of the rifling.
The only time I have ever gotten a pellet stuck in a springer barrel was from trying to reshoot a pellet that "looked OK" recovered from a trap. That pellet got stuck halfway down the barrel. I compounded the problem by loading a pellet and trying to shoot out the stuck one; followed by another.... This was with a low powered Slavia 620 in 1974. I have shot a number of double loads with fresh pellets from the same airgun. The pellets had no trouble hitting the target at about 10 yards, but I had to aim high due to the low velocity, and the dispersion on target was just silly. So, a practice that should be discouraged because it is generally asking for trouble.
I am sure you could make the 350 choke on multi loaded pellets, but would probably take 5 to leave any behind in the barrel. I suggest you don't try that, as pellets can wedge in a barrel more tightly than one can imagine, when they become solid cylinders of lead, with long friction inducing flanks...
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Charles,
One reason why indoor target shooting air rifles are so low powered is concern about lead dust being created by impact with hard traps. (The main reason is that puncturing paper at 10 meters does not require much energy). The fact that Germany has a 5.5 FPE limit on airguns before they need a firearm license is probably another factor.
Anyway, if your primary concern is inhalation of lead dust, I suggest that you get a HW30 and a rubber mulch trap.
If you are concerned about handling lead pellets, get disposable finger cots.
If you are married to your 5.2 grain tin pellets, I suggest you get an HW30. It won't mind the light pellets and will be a lot of fun to shoot at indoor targets. Yes, it will feel like a toy compared to the 350.
I have a 350 in .177 and .22. They are beasts at 48" long. My .177 sounds harsh compared to the .22; unless I shoot 10+ grain pellets in it. I like shooting offhand, but quite frankly can no longer aim them very long because they are so long and heavy. Even my front and rear counterweights (blubber) can't seem to compensate for age related muscle atrophy.
My ideal weight and balance is the HW50. That at least feels like a real rifle, compared to the HW30. The HW50 is going to shoot your 5.2 grain pellets at a little over 950 FPS, which is a bit too fast, but may still work at short indoor ranges.
The HW30 should shoot the 5.2 grain pellets at about 840 FPS and would be an ideal match for such light pellets.
You don't have to worry about being "contrary" about your non-lead preference - until you campaign to make lead pellets illegal for the rest of us. It is a personal choice, like you preferring the 350 M(onster) for indoor shooting, when there are choices that appear to be better suited. I will say this, if you can shoot the 350 well, then shooting any low or medium powered springer will seem easy by comparison.
I would save money by shooting 7 grain lead pellets, and spend the savings on an HW30, and a soft trap - but am not going to suggest that you have to see things my way.
I suspect that two 5.2 grain pellets separate in flight; and that the sooner they separate, the closer the front one will impact to the point of aim. If you could join them, I wonder if they would be stable as one long pellet. I would be very interested to see them, after being caught in a water trap to minimize damage. I bet the rear pellet has its skirt blown out to form almost a cylinder. The front one's skirt is also likely compressed with long engagement of the rifling.
The only time I have ever gotten a pellet stuck in a springer barrel was from trying to reshoot a pellet that "looked OK" recovered from a trap. That pellet got stuck halfway down the barrel. I compounded the problem by loading a pellet and trying to shoot out the stuck one; followed by another.... This was with a low powered Slavia 620 in 1974. I have shot a number of double loads with fresh pellets from the same airgun. The pellets had no trouble hitting the target at about 10 yards, but I had to aim high due to the low velocity, and the dispersion on target was just silly. So, a practice that should be discouraged because it is generally asking for trouble.
I am sure you could make the 350 choke on multi loaded pellets, but would probably take 5 to leave any behind in the barrel. I suggest you don't try that, as pellets can wedge in a barrel more tightly than one can imagine, when they become solid cylinders of lead, with long friction inducing flanks...
Yea, but the OP only wants "a deal". I guess, even Krale is not enough of "a deal" for him.
Penny wise and pound foolish in my book... ;D
-Y
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Charlie you're right we'll have to agree to disagree. I've been tested several times for occupational reasons and still don't have any detectable lead levels. You're right lead oxide as found in old paint chips (and the slag at the top of a melting pot) is the most dangerous type of lead. Especially to developing children. It can be readily absorbed orally by humans. But it's not what you normally encounter handling sinkers, pellets and bullets. Even if it were the lead dust found in ranges indoors and outdoors is too heavy to stay airborne long enough to be dangerous. What made asbestos dangerous wasn't its chemical make up but that it's fibrous and stays airborne forever. It's that prolonged exposure to something fibrous that irritated the lungs to eventually form cancer cells. In order for lead to actually become airborne enough to be inhaled it needs to be heated to double its melting point. Approximately 900 degrees. We live in a world of safety conscious people and the people who profit by controlling them with fear. I choose not to participate in either part. I choose to live my life with a healthy but practical level of caution.
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Asbestos fiber is bad because it imbeds in the lungs, and cannot be expelled.
I am not concerned over lead dust, but the fact that it turns white in an LDC (and barrel) tells me that it oxidizes over time. After all, dust has a large surface area to mass ratio. As long as it is heavy enough to stay at ground level, I am not concerned.
If lead levels in the blood are not significant (or over that for non-shooters living in the same area), then that would seem to indicated exposure for indoor shooters is not significant. An indoor range with poor ventilation and sweeping practices may be another story.
Some people can't be careful enough of their "chosen" irritant or toxin. I don't like any direct exposure to free asbestos, or even glass fiber. At the same time, shooting any airgun in the house is more about how much noise it makes, than lead exposure. (Assuming there is no risk of shooting another person or pet)
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I've been tested several times for occupational reasons and still don't have any detectable lead levels.
N=1
I wouldn't stress all that much that one person anecdotally has zero issues with lead exposure.
How I see it, based on The World Health Organisation, and recent studies such as this: https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-017-0246-0
Lead is a heavy metal with NO SAFE LOWER LIMIT within the human body. Lead has a plethora of established, serious health consequences, including loss of mental acuity and infertility. Lead also accumulates in the body, so the levels rise over time / exposure, adding up.
Handling lead pellets with dry hands, and washing hands after handling pellets, has a low risk of health consequences in adults. But just having greasy fingers when handling the pellets can change the situation quickly, as a lead- oil mix is readily absorbed through the skin.
Inadvertently breathing lead dust, from shooting lead projectiles indoors, is a known source of elevated blood lead levels. In the above 2017 study review, nearly every shooting range user blood sample tested had elevated lead levels. I have zero experience with low-velocity 10 m target guns, but my 15 - 30 fpe pellet guns make lead dust, and you can bet all of it doesn't stay in the barrel.
I'm personally unconcerned about handling lead fishing weights and lead pellets on a regular basis, with the above mentioned caveats. I personally would not shoot lead indoors, as the risk is too high, and last I checked, there are no spare brains available. The infertility part, in lá lá isolation, wouldn't be that bad.
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I was unclear-sorry-
The lead adult air rifle shooters would be exposed to would be the fine lead-and lead oxide(as subscriber mentioned-almost all metals develop surface oxidation)- particles that would
be shaved off by the rifling-and spit out in a bloom.Some would be spit upward- but it is dense-so it will fall-but maybe not before you walk into the bloom-and inhale it.You can wash your hands-but..
Chamber temps-1400 k 1100 c plenty high enough to melt tiny amounts off base and skirt-perhaps even produce some vapor(which would quickly condense)
I did not bring up lead poisoning-I never do because it ends up like this-I am the bad guy fear mongering
There is no way to measure just how much low levels of lead harm you-
but older folks are probably more likely to be damaged than younger-but not children-(plausible guess)
Nothing works as well when you are older-kidney liver nothing that eliminates lead works as well-
And there is no way to tell if the neurological signs symptoms are from some sort of age related decline or subtle signs of lead poisoning-
Why would I expose myself to a toxic substance-nervous system blood liver kidney every cell in the body- when I don't have to-especially when there is an alternative?
I was repeatedly asked why I use the destructive to guns-less accurate-more expensive lead free pellets-reasonable question
I thought it was obvious-only one reason to use "lead free pellets" and expressed as LEAD FREE makes it obvious I am avoiding LEAD EXPOSURE-not seeking peak velocity
The lower blood level(above which treatment would be considered) is 5 nanograms per 100 mis of blood a nanogram is 1 BILLIONTH of a gram so
5 parts per 100,000,000,000 5 parts of blood per 100 BILLION blood parts- think I left out 3 zeros before-is the limit below which treatment not advised-treatment is potentially harmful-no free lunch
I won't bring it up again-but that is why I use the pricy pellets-but I am cheap-so I don't actually pay 10 cents per shot-BBs reuse some
OK I won't mention lead @#%&%$#@* again
Sorry for the disruption
Charlie
PS- use a SWIFFER-wet then dry-on your floor after shooting and before walking on it-mitigate exposure- and your wife(or significant other I guess) will appreciate your sudden devotion
to house work-or shoot outside-get a 880 cheap and fun-for indoor shooting-
in the not to distant future safe bet nanny GOV will involve themselves in this-
hunters-waterfowl-adapted quickly-they aren't stupid-did not want to hard their sport-
US ARMY is switching to #@$% free projectiles-very costly-and they are working on primers
Air rifle users invariably(except in Europe etc) use firearms-I do-don't hunt-broter does-but I love guns-gun nut-one more exposure source- I have #$%^ free primers and projectiles
soon enough I will get some primers that are a barium compound-
PPS I just saw Ilimakko's post-as usual heavy on supported facts-and good advice
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I am taking the Diana 460 apart today to get a look at the seal and where the seal and piston crash down into the compression chamber
I will take pictures-either way
It has at least 2500 SSP 8.6 grains shot through it-and perhaps as many as 4500-bought in 2015
I don't hear metal to metal contact-but crummy 70 year old ears-with plenty of firearms and motorcycle exposure-so..
I expect at least a very deformed seal and maybe a dinged up compression chamber-we'll see
Thanks all-sorry the discussion became a little heated
SAY LAH VEE
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The WHO don't just want to protect you from lead ammo; they don't want you handling any ammo.
As for the US military going lead free, lead poisoning is at the bottom of the list, when you are taking incoming. If you are trying to perforate the enemy, blood lead levels "in circulation" won't matter to you - or to them. The military does not practice enough indoors for lead ammo to be any concern. Neither for priming compounds.
The military "going green" is a joke. They are there to destroy. Imagine an electric tank, where you call a time-out to charge the batteries. So, color me amused about lead ammo, for as long as spent uranium is still in use. "Greening" of the military is about money laundering via new initiatives. There is nothing polite or PC about the military's primary function. The idea that it is OK to shred people, as long as you use correct pronouns is comedy. This position is not acceptance of actual abuse of your own troops.
If your springer is dieseling, the particulates in the smoke are probably carcinogenic, when those can't disperse very quickly indoors. Ask the WHO. They will tell you that diesel engines are "bad for the planet" and for human health. Unless you can fit your springer with a catalyst to deal with the partially burnt hydrocarbons, and a NOX reducing fluid dispenser, you might have to give it up. From my perspective, quoting the WHO is like quoting the WEF.
That said, anyone who wants zero lead exposure is welcome to take that path. If tin pellets are made in .22, and you want to shoot magnum springers, perhaps that would be a better choice than .177. Otherwise, buy or trade in, on a springer, pumper or PCP where 5.2 grain pellets would be appropriate.
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Checked the 460-2500 to 4500 more light-8.6 grain pellets
seal looked fine-compression chamber-same story
I don't doubt it will damage-break the spring earlier-
and the 5.2 in the 350 is relatively lighter than the 8.6 in the 460
so I might check it soon
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My mistake
I think I wrote nanograms 1/1,000,000,000 gram(weird looking u) but I should have said micrograms 1/1,000,000 (Mcg)
5 micrograms per 100 mls of blood is the level of Pb below which it is better to not treat
Sorry
Charlie
PS still waiting for chronograph-really curious what sort of velocity the 5.2 will produce out of the Diana 350-it no longer sounds or smells like it is igniting oil
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I'm still trying to figure out how you can judge which is the "more accurate" pellet when firing 2 at once.
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Good point-I was unclear
I am going to mark the front pellet BLACK OR BLUE- with a sharpie
Shoot it through a box-with about 40 layers of cardboard
I will find the pellet tracks-trace them to the end-they will be stuck in the cardboard-might actually stick a skewer through track(tract?? hmm)
Them look at the track closest to BULLSEYE- they seem to hit about 1-2cm apart at 5 meters or so-should be farther apart at 10 meters
If it is the colored pellet-then front pellet most accurate
It depends on having at least 1/2 or spread-which is what they have been having-and maybe having a straight track/tract?? which is iffy
I have a set up with the pellets actually attached-so far-one shot-they stayed together- 2 different types BB PELLET PELLET PELLET
maybe I posted that picture? posted again-goofy but they might work-and give a higher weight with less chance of damaging spring seal and compression chamber
have not actually seen any evidence that light pellets damage seal-but it is plausible-and spring breakage-plausible also so worth mitigating
I expect it will be tricker than my description-and tracks might not go straight in the cardboard-but that is my hope
Charlie
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I'm still trying to figure out how you can judge which is the "more accurate" pellet when firing 2 at once.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-Y
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Charlie,
How will you load a pellet with a BB behind it in the 350? The breech won't close, unless you deep-seat the pellet. Deep-seating reduces the initial resistance on firing, and is like shooting a very light pellet. So your BB mitigation may be achieving nothing useful, despite your good intentions.
If those are copper plated steel BBs you are not doing the barrel any favors. You might try to drop a BB in from the muzzle to see if it can pass through the choke. If not getting a BB unstuck will e your next projects. Now imagine getting a few pellets stuck behind the BB because you thought you were missing the target.
Drop the BB in from the muzzle with the barrel "broken", or the BB may end up in the compression chamber. Sure, you can drop it from the breech (expecting to see daylight after), but if it is going to stick, that drop might be enough to cause you grief already; if it gets stuck at the choke.
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The question of group size determination when shooting two pellets at a time is easy:
Rather than shooting 5 or 10 times at one target, shoot one shot (two pellets) at each aim point. Just space the aim points far enough apart until you get an idea of how far apart the pellets land.
Start with ink spots or colored stickers on carboard or paper, a good 4" apart. Shoot ten "single shot groups" like that and see what happens. Something like this: www.amazon.com/ChromaLabel-Round-Coding-Labels-Dispenser/dp/B00VQNW6O8/ (http://www.amazon.com/ChromaLabel-Round-Coding-Labels-Dispenser/dp/B00VQNW6O8/)
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Two balls from a muzzle loader often print side by side, so your results are fairly typical. I just checked and airgun BB's are not like steel shotgun BB's which are annealed to soften them. Airgun BB's are hard steel. Not a good mix for your choke and rifling, as pointed out.
Your 460 is a testament to how well built the gun is. If I may ask, why are you shooting big magnums indoors in the first place? I get the non-lead angle but those guns are simply not intended for light pellets. Shot cycle myst be pretty harsh.
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Two balls from a muzzle loader often print side by side, so your results are fairly typical. I just checked and airgun BB's are not like steel shotgun BB's which are annealed to soften them. Airgun BB's are hard steel. Not a good mix for your choke and rifling, as pointed out.
Your 460 is a testament to how well built the gun is. If I may ask, why are you shooting big magnums indoors in the first place? I get the non-lead angle but those guns are simply not intended for light pellets. Shot cycle myst be pretty harsh.
^^^^^^^ like :-)
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I commend the members for holding a civil discussion. Heated, yes, but civil. Congrats to all!
DIANA seals are designedwith SOME regard to the fact that many store owners think that dry-firing the pellet gun in front of the customer and letting them hear the sonic crack is a good selling point.
Charles documented runs of light pellets will, for me, be valuable information about the performance of the materials we have chosen and have used for the last 20 years.
Bottom line to me is that Charles is happy with what works for HIM. And he is, now, fully conscious of the possible consequences from the good advice and info he has received. So, it is up to us to let him be.
Everyone has done its part in this micro-society we have with excellent manners so, again, congrats to all!
Two points I would like to make:
1.- It is fairly well established that the combustion/dieseling happens within the TP. When this combustion acts as a spark plug to deflagrate the oil mist in the compression chamber is when we have a true "detonation". The technical/practical difference between a combustion and a detonation is simply the flame front velocity. Flame fronts advance MUCH quicker when there is a mixture of the precise stoichiometry present, and that is more achievable with a dry fire than with a heavy pellet dieseling situation.
2.- The problem/cost of non-lead pellets lies in the relatively higher swaging pressures involved. These derive from the non-linearity of hardness vs. purity behaviour of tin. Just as examples:
Industrially pure tin (99.9% pure) has a BhN of 9
Semi-Lab quality tin (99.99%) can go to BhN of 6
Lab quality Tin (99.999%) can go as low as 2.
Industrially Pure lead, by contrast is 6
Midway claims a BhN of 2.5 for the tin they sell, but at these extremes of the testers, the reality is that the numbers are not really "telling".
So, manufacturers have had to develop their OWN procedures for testing and accepting batches.
They also need to dedicate whole lines of equipment to tin projectiles because any contamination, ANY, will cause a dramatic rise in hardness and therefore a dramatic increase in swaging pressures.
So, the cost increase is not only in the material, but in the whole capital cost of having machines dedicated to that metal and KEEPING them separate.
Also, if you add 1 to the cost at the production level, the difference at the retail level will be 4, so if tin is about 60% more expensive than lead, then just on that count, tin pellets should be 1.6 times more expensive than lead pellets.
Under the current conditions, manufacturers are preferring to devote the little available production resources to the production of those pellets that produce the most margin, and those are the lead 0.22" cal ones.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Oh-I was unclear-thought I mentioned that I did not-and won't -shoot BBs in the Dianas HWs or TX200.
I shot the .177 "hybrids" in a $20 Chinese B3 I bought 30 years ago-Gun Show-it is not a bad gun for $20
I shoot the .22 in the Crosman NP Phantom break barrel -the gun that is horrible to cock and it soured me on break barrels because I assumed they were all horrible to cock
I hate it -strange to hate a thing-but I hate it- It is really awkward to cock- but it actually shoots pretty decent-
It has a drop in trigger-sold here by widow of a member--great trigger-he was talented maker of triggers-forget his name-$35 or so-well worth it-
The Chinese B3 I like-has a really light trigger-no safety at all-cockeyed sights but shoots fine- .177
They are test mules-
1)testing to see how accurate hybrid arrangements are-
2)and to see if they will hold together
3) see how the velocity -report- recoil change with heavier "pellet"-the answer is they change a lot-but the B3 not that powerful anyway-the Phantom-is powerful-probably
close to the HW 77K I think-judging from penetration in pine
Anyway that is the story of the hybrid pellets-the .177 to .177 PELLETs look like they might work "ok"-same story .22 to .22 pellets
I probably would not use the .177 BB-.22 pellet in the good rifles-the BB "might" stay off the rifling-I will test it-capture it-eyeball for rifling abrasions-see if it will hold together
but probably would never trust it in the pricy rifles that I actually like
No surprise the "shot cycle" which I take to mean the weird recoil springer produce-is very mild- same story report-the Phantom is actually pretty powerful-from penetration in
pine-about like HW77K-
And yes Hector M is right-considering the touchy nature of the subject-this was a pretty civil discussion
Must say I am amazed no one else uses those Pb free pellets-the Daisy's were in short supply for a while-and when they returned-1 week ago- to Daisy's "shelves"
they were double the price were $4.50 per 250 now $9.50 per 250 with $15 shipping for up to 10 tins. Who in heck-other than me-is buying them??
Thanks
Charlie
PS Hector-so the salesmen DRY fire the Dianas?? Explains the no sign of seal or cylinder or piston damage-heck barely looked used-despite at least 2500 8.6 grain shots
Yeah sturdy ownerproof guns-no surprise-Diana knows how to make air guns-you have to ownerproof items that kids and childish adults like me-use!
And I still prefer-slightly-the T06 to the too little feel 2nd stage REKORD AND REKORD CLONE triggers(they are great-but I perfer a bit more feedback and resistance-and movement
in 2nd stage
-shooting standing all "tight" from holding 9 lbs of gun
I want some movement-not THINK FIRE and BAM- fine for resting-but not for standing freehand
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Subscriber-thanks for the tips-and the amazon tip
Redfeather-thanks for the tip on the annealed BBs and about the comparison to muzzle loaders
Suburbia-can't shoot outdoors-neighbors would freak-swat at door-people do not mind their own business
they would think the NO FIREARM report was a sign I was a TERRORIST using a silencer
Yes this was a civil discussion considering the subject.
I will post velocity numbers in 1 hr or so.
Caldwell chronograph worked ok-took some getting used to-but worked ok
I was a little bit off with my 1300 fps guess for the 5.2 out of the Diana 350-it did cut a very very clean hole so 1300 fps seemed ballpark-it wasn't.
I tested the Diana 460 and the Crosman 1377 and 1322-numbers about what you would expect-nothing dramatic
Thanks all-appreciate the discussion
Charlie
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Velocity-Caldwell chronograph- worked ok-typically about 3 error messages for every reading-used chronograph-Oheler 33 or 35 waaaay back early 1980's
You are so careful to not hit sky screens-you shoot too high-get error message-especially indoors-yes I hit the sky screens more than once ($10/each back then) the Caldwell
is all in one-shoot it and that is that-dead chronograph-
These numbers look about right- and in line with the numbers I saw from STRAIGHTSHOOTERS.COM- their .177 Diana 350
numbers peaked at 23 ft lbs for a 6.7 grain H N green 1107fps pellet peak velocity HN GREEN 5.8 1196 FPS
Looking at that my 1414 FPS with 5.2 grain pellet seems high-but different rifle-mine is new-perhaps still burning some oil-but I don't smell it-pellet brand different-who knows-the
other chronograph numbers other guns seem in line-and the other 2 5.2 were same ball park- 6 Meters less(I had it set on meters-converted 3.28) should have used FPS better
resolution-I will try some tomorrow
The 1322 1377 pistols-10 or so pumps-they seem in line with what I read-so rifle shots probably right too
Crosman 1377 .177 5.2 grain 593fps 4.1 Ft Lbs
Crosman 1322 .22 9.5 grain 475fps 4.8 Ft Lb
Diana 460 .22 8.6 grain 951fps 17.3 ft lbs
Diana 460 .22 9.5 grain 967fps 19.8 ft lbs
Diana 350 .177 4.2 grain 1387fps 17.8 ft lbs
Diana 350 .177 5.2 grain 1414fps 23.2 ft lbs
The 1414 fps- pretty fast-but 5.2 is pretty light-I did not smell any oil burning smell-or smoke like the first cannon shots days ago-probably 300 shots in-
The initial shots-with the HUGE blast and smoke-cut holes in the paper that looked like some sharp punch had done it-dead clean-no idea how fast-but faster than this shot I guess
Thanks all
Charlie
PS As I mentioned-can't shoot outside-neighbors-suburbia-
and I just like the powerful Dianas-sturdy rifles that look like rifles should-and seemingly ownerproof judging from 460s seal
after 2500-4500 8.6 grain shots -looked barely used-not dented or deformed-same story interior of CC-which my photo did not show very well
and the 350 shoots- great-accurate-
I never shoot that well-not 10 meters standing stock sights-the 1 high one was a flyer-number 3 - I knew I had let my wobble get the best of me
should have stopped-taken a few seconds-but I am never patient-so but I never shoot that well-except with this 350 for some reason
I love this cannon-even the BAM (ear plugs always)
PS- Pretty sure the GLOBE sight is why I shoot so well with this 350.Never used one before-actually never heard of them before. But it seems to act like a gigantic peep sight
correcting some of my refractive error-and making my lack of depth perception(born without one aspect of depth perception according to Air Force- back when -1968
they would test you -have you look in box- two planes projected on invisible screen which plane is closer I had no idea)
Anyway if anyone likes .177's break barrels-and open sights-hard to beat the Diana 350.
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Charlie,
I am not at all surprised that your 350 was shooting the 5.2 grain pellets at over 1300 FPS. That is well within its rated FPE - without burning lube.
The image of the piston seal you posted does not show high temperature damage; so I did not post this before (image below with red arrows):
The seal shows what looks like slight nicks from contact with sharp cocking slot edges on the compression tube. That would have happened on assembly, and is not germane to dieseling. Unfortunately, such marks are fairly common; even on Weihrauch springers. So, the attitude seems to be that the cost saving of not deburring the punched tubes makes up for the customer complaints that might result from what we see as "easily avoidable seal damage".
Functionally; if hot compressed air does leak at such a nick in the seal, it usually starts to melt the seal and then degrades very rapidly. This has not happened with your seal, and possibly never will (a seal nick can also act as a focal point for a fatigue failure in the future).
You will know if the piston seal has ripped or melted, because the pellet velocity will drop off drastically, and the shot cycle will become "slammy". If you ignore that, the stock screws will most likely come loose, and the action will move so much in the stock as to "chew" or pound a larger cavity in the inletting.
The only other thing I notice about the steel piston face is that it is "polished". That might be original, or it could be from impact with the end of the compression cylinder. Either way, it does not look like a "car crash" :) .
The fact that you have opened up the airgun and reassembled it will make it easier, should it need a new seal in the future. Then, using a needle file to deburr the cocking slot edges will help extend the life of the new seal you will need to install. At that time, cleaning out filings and applying fresh lube will be necessary. Then the fun discussion will be "what lube is best" - but that is a whole other topic that has been covered many times on the forum.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=194136.0;attach=383709;image)
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Subscriber
Thanks for the tips.
So 1414 fps is not too suprising-I was a little surprised-but as you say 23 ft abs-ball park for a new 350.
I am not sure those are nicks-think I might have commented that in real life they looked like "nothing" or maybe even STREAK OF GOO
But if as you say the assemblers are not too careful and they don't spend the 6 or so minutes-German wages-who knows- $40/hr- another $4 in cost-
if Numrich retails for $250(sure seems low) it must wholesale for under $200-so ever minute counts
I might take another look-is the cocking slot accessible-funny I had it apart-but can't really picture it?
I probably should take a look at the 350.It probably is taking more of a beating than the 460
A 8.6 in a .22 460 is relatively heavier than a 5.2 in a .177.
I might risk a no ear plugs shot in the 350-it made such a BLAST that first shot-I have worn them since that shot
The 460 doesn't require plugs-not that loud-no surprise waaaay subsonic-
But the 350 might not even drop to trans sonic range in the 10 meters-the below is from straightshooters.com their test of the 350-it dropped just under 200 fps in 10 meters(might be yards?) but it is heavier certainly better ballistic coefficient-the 5.2 are flat nosed-
I am still tinkering with getting heavier pellets-especially for the 350-
Thanks
Charlie
FTT Green Lead Free
claimed wt 5.56
actual wt 5.80
muzzle vel 1198
energy muzzle 19
10 meter velocity 1004
10 meter energy 13
25 meter velocity 850
25 meter energy 9
50 meter velocity 682
50 meter energy 6
ballistic coe. .014
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Phoebisis, I get it now about being limited to indoor shooting. It is the same where I live. There's a big, wide open power line right of way not a ten minute walk from my house. I called the police to ask if I might shoot there, it being perfectly safe with good backstops. The officer I spoke with said it's like this. Someone will probably call to report a man with a gun, so we will have to send a car out and you would, in all likelihood, have your air rifle confiscated. (Bear in mind I'm talking about conventional looking air rifles, not firearm lookalikes.) I can shoot in my backyard with a "suitable backstop" but, again, the neighbors would probably freak out. A visit from S.W.A.T. is no fun, believe me. LOL, another thing we have in common is I no longer have depth perception due to an eye operation. Thankfully, it is my off eye. My surgeon explained that for anything over a few feet, depth perception is really learned distances, so I'm fine from that point on. Yours, on the other hand, must be tough since you said it is congenital. Have fun with your big dogs. I've been buying a couple of those lately, even though I only kill paper in the basement. It's good to know that the occasional light pellet won't beat them up. My shoulder, maybe, but not the gun.
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I seen your title and rembered this vid @ 3".55
He fired it and smoked like a black powder so to say... Dont know if noise comparis or not or how close to your experience it is..
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AFiOHe5PWo4
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Deeco
Did I see what i saw-the fellow shot a loaded Diana 350-out over a park from his balcony IN BROAD DAYLIGHT?
Redfeather-you need to see the video Deeco-A MORON- posted.
The fellow in the video gave a little review of his Diana 350-some sounded like English-some was some other language-
Well he gave a good review-standing there on the balcony of a nice apt-flower pot with plant on balcony-looked to be typical USA city-
After the review he loads it-points it out over a park-and BAM- yes it smoked like heck-but more smoke coming out after the shot
And I sure as heck didn't do it BROAD DAYLIGHT pointing it a bit upward for maximun range-over a park? WHERE IN USA ?
The fellow was a young adult-in full control of his senses-not drunk-not a goofy teenage guy doing it egged on by his buddies-just a normal fellow
He was speaking a language-maybe indian subcontinent- but it was in USA-
I have seen plenty of pictures of men in the Middle East-shooting actual firearms-AKs-upwards-full mags let loose on crowded streets-broad daylight-no one looking for over head cover
But this guy was not speaking Arabic-I don't think-Hindi or Urdu maybe??
Redfeather-you get it-in surburbia USA-the days of shooting in backyard are gone-
Deeco where is that fellow-what USA city?
Thanks all
Charlie
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I guess all i was after was to show he shot his and blew all the smoke.. i assumed like yours did ( i guess).
Then the rest may show who got better gun rights ? Them or some of us? Hmmmmm...
G0d bless America.
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Deeco
Did I see what i saw-the fellow shot a loaded Diana 350-out over a park from his balcony IN BROAD DAYLIGHT?
Redfeather-you need to see the video Deeco-A MORON- posted.
The fellow in the video gave a little review of his Diana 350-some sounded like English-some was some other language-
Well he gave a good review-standing there on the balcony of a nice apt-flower pot with plant on balcony-looked to be typical USA city-
After the review he loads it-points it out over a park-and BAM- yes it smoked like heck-but more smoke coming out after the shot
And I sure as heck didn't do it BROAD DAYLIGHT pointing it a bit upward for maximun range-over a park? WHERE IN USA ?
The fellow was a young adult-in full control of his senses-not drunk-not a goofy teenage guy doing it egged on by his buddies-just a normal fellow
He was speaking a language-maybe indian subcontinent- but it was in USA-
I have seen plenty of pictures of men in the Middle East-shooting actual firearms-AKs-upwards-full mags let loose on crowded streets-broad daylight-no one looking for over head cover
But this guy was not speaking Arabic-I don't think-Hindi or Urdu maybe??
Redfeather-you get it-in surburbia USA-the days of shooting in backyard are gone-
Deeco where is that fellow-what USA city?
Thanks all
Charlie
Did not look like USA in the background.
I wish the NRA would get back to teaching firearm safety ;)
-Y
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If you pause the video and look at the billboards, the phone numbers appear to be indian numbers and with indian names. Luckily, I do not believe thats in the US. Otherwise I'm sure we could pinpoint his location with the area code of those billboards and google maps and report him to the police. Last thing any of us need are more regulations on airguns because of dangerous behaving individuals.
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Also, seems like the dumb cluck really like the detonation. :-[ ::) >:(
With all the smoke it looked more like a ceremonial cannon than an airgun. ;D
-Y
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Quite a bit if oil on that breech. Smokey but not like a charcoal burner, lol. I'd say he's in India or maybe Pakistan. If you've watched any Bollywood movies, dialogue slips in and out of English. Kind of like Spanglish. Yes, he needs a good course in safe gun handling, especially break barrel. Or a good hand surgeon.
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Click on the video channel name. Click on the about tab: https://www.youtube.com/user/rakeshdangi199/about (https://www.youtube.com/user/rakeshdangi199/about)
Location: India
Shooting that 350 blindly over the tree is massively stupid. Blindly being the operative word. At that angle the pellet could hit someone and take out an eye 250 yards away: https://youtu.be/AFiOHe5PWo4?t=235 (https://youtu.be/AFiOHe5PWo4?t=235)
One can see cars on the road on the other side of the park. That shot almost certainly reached whatever was beyond that road. Despite being a wadcutter pellet.
Supposedly the power limit in India is 20 Joule; so a detuned 350. Still, that shot probably went a lot faster due to dieseling.
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I reported the video for unsafe handling and discharge of projectiles in a public space. Will youtube take it down? probably not.
I do not care about what happens in India but youtube being an international platform, we don't need Americans learning unsafe airgun handling from these accessible sources.
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I reported the video for unsafe handling and discharge of projectiles in a public space. Will youtube take it down? probably not.
Near vertical "celebratory gunfire" seems to be very popular in some circles. That is less risky to others than shooting at 30 degrees above the horizon. Here, an airgun shoots into a cork made for the purpose of mimicking a firearm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ye-LAgDLN8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ye-LAgDLN8)
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Yes, a short visit to sites like live leak will show you that type of behavior and many similar types of gun mishandling and behavior.
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Yeah you are right slipping in and out of Hindi I guess.
Funny because of quite a bit of English-and a subject we are familiar with-I could follow what he was saying.
Yeah I noticed signs were in english-didn't notice the phone numbers.
There were a fair number of smallish motorcycles parked at a distance away-should have been a hint that it was far east.
I liked his presentation-pleasant guy-probably well versed in air guns.He has a big following judging from the comments on u-tube.
Many folks wanting to buy the rifle-asa nearly as I could tell-as someone said here-India allows-no license- .177's of under 20 joules-14 ft lbs I guess-
14 ft lbs is waaaay over what the poor Brits get I think-actually pretty powerful-not sure what those HW 97 77 do-but probably about 14 ft lbs-so pretty powerful
14 ft lbs is 10 grains 800fps-stout -safe bet there is a lively market in spring upgrades.
India has lots of talented people-doing various repairs-well-with minimal high tech gadgetry-just enough power devices to speed the work
I am sure they jackup those rifles.
The video had a notice-no hunting in India-Hindu and Buddist beliefs I think.I don't hunt-brother does-he is here dropping hios dog off-on his way to a duck hunting trip
near La coast-Hackberry-guides work year round-hunting and fishing-make a decent living when facilities aren't smashed by our hurricanes.He says they make more
as fishing guides-limited hunting season-maybe some fish are always "in season"
I liked the guys videos-the shot over park-a bit jarring- different culture-14 ft lbs-jacked by the oil-I wonder what the range is at that angle?? 300 meters??
I remember the warning on 40 grain long rifles "will shoot 1 mile" -been on the boxes waaaay back in late 1950's I think
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I just hate it when somebody abuses their tools. >:(
And what he is doing is abusing his airgun. :-[
-Y
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Subscriber
What in the world is that fellow doing?
Shooting into a cork-? He seems to have "some gadget" attached to the muzzle-and it produces a "firearm" like noise?
Seems to be a flash also-some gunpowder extracted from fireworks maybe?perhaps has a primer lined up to set off powder?
He has some nice rifles-guessing this is a cheap one
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Charles,
If you browse the Indian fellow's other videos, two things become obvious:
1. He promotes or sells airguns.
2. That muzzle attachment is made for the Indian market. It takes a "cork" that is loaded with some sort of blank primer and powder, for the purpose of making noise. The expected use is to shoot it up into the air. "Why", is a whole other matter.
So, that guy is not abusing his airgun when he shoots it with all that oil in the breech. He is abusing some future buyer's airgun. The Indian comments on youtube were "where can I get one"; and "how much does it cost?". So, the clap and smoke when dieseling are seen as a plus; not "how does one make it less attention grabbing".
The attached screengrab image below provides some insight into Mr Dangi's beliefs about shooting into the air. He seems to think that shooting straight up into the air is safe. Also, because shooting at 30 degrees above the horizon is also "shooting into the air"; it too is "safe".
Fictional character, Austin Powers said, "danger is my middle name". I wonder if Mr Dangi's last name is real, or a pseudonym.
Anyway, us discussing or criticizing a cultural "thing" here is likely to end poorly. That is also why youtube is not likely to remove the video. The term "gun safety" does not mean the same thing to all people. Not even in the US.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=194136.0;attach=383875;image)
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Don't forget that, for every ten people who see these videos and cringe, there's always one who's thinking "Neat! I can't WAIT to try THAT!" I'm sure these birds are not typical of serious Indian airgunners. They have some good forums and I've corresponded with well informed, experienced people.
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Subscriber-thanks for the info.-so the fellow actually responds.
Well straight up is "safer" but not quite safe
Shooting at that angle-maybe the trajectory will be close to straight down but...
Annyone have any idea what the terminal velocity of a 9 grain .177 is- 100fps 150 fps??
If I was sleeping on my back-in a park-nasty way to wake up-pellet drilling into my soft eye.
Yeah tiny tiny chance-perhaps they are a bit more fatalistic in high population countries-Oh well
Redfeather-heh more than 1/10 would be interested in duplicating that-young people-males of course- 15 or so-have a different perspective
I bet a high percentage of young males would like to duplicate that-especially in places where they have never fired a firearm
I suspect firearms are diffcult to legally obtain in India-you have to be connected-like NYNY or Mass to own hand guns-difficult even where it is in theory legal
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Charles,
One can debate the accuracy of this 350 velocity data, but it may help illustrate a point: https://www.straightshooters.com/ourtake/ourtake350.html (https://www.straightshooters.com/ourtake/ourtake350.html)
So, I took the velocity numbers from the above link for the 8.2 grain wadcutters. Looked at the decay rate and extrapolated that to 300 yards. I was actually generous in that based on the data to 50 yards the decay rate would have been steeper.
Anyway, the charts below are for the velocity and energy respectively. If you can throw a tennis ball at 50 FPS, then perhaps you can throw a pellet at that speed (the rough equivalent of this pellet at 300 yards - calculated). Would such a pellet sting someone's skin? Could it cause an eye injury?
Another discussion some months ago had data suggesting eye injury was likely at over 1 FPE. Obviously it depends on how sharp the object is.
The Diana user manual has a table suggesting the dangerous distances for a number of its air rifles: https://www.pyramydair.com/air-gunsresources/manuals/DIANA_Breakbarrel-and-underlever-manuals_EN_Air_Venturi_2018.pdf (https://www.pyramydair.com/air-gunsresources/manuals/DIANA_Breakbarrel-and-underlever-manuals_EN_Air_Venturi_2018.pdf)
I notice that neither the shape, weight or caliber are taken into account for each model's danger range. I may be wrong, but suspect that the actual range where a pellet strike would cause an injury is half that given. That the distance is "doubled" because people can't estimate range, and we want to avoid testing the answer "live". This is the same reason why a .22 rimfire ammo box states "dangerous to 1 mile" on the box. If you look into the distance, where is a mile; or half a mile? Margin of safety is better than an under estimation; every time.
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Hatcher's Notebook discusses bullet penetration related to velocity. The bullets at closer range are still moving so fast at close range that they begin to tear apart on impact. So this has been tested and as stated before, they aren't faster 100 yards down range.
Way off the topic of air rifles but:
Of course, the bullets/pellets, footballs, baseballs etc slow down in flight without additional acceleration like an airplane or rocket. The bullet tip certainly will heat up a bit because of the friction resistance of the air that adds too the heat transferred to the bullet by the friction of going through the barrel. I personally have picked up ricocheted bullets that are quite hot. The bullets don't tear apart in air but do break up when hitting something hard because of the violent tumbling.
Hatcher's Notebook shows pictures of oak wood shot at 50' and 200yds with a standard 30/06 bullet. The penetration of the short range shot showed that the bullet tumbled in the wood and only penetrated 16" or so while at 200yds it penetrated nearly 30". The cause had nothing to do with friction or heat but stability of the bullet in flight. It takes a bit of time for the bullet to quit wobbling in flight and settle down. If it hits something before its spin stabilizes it will tumble. After stabilization it flies pretty straight. Remember a bullet shot at 2700f/s from a barrel with a twist of 1 in 12" (like the Springfield and other 30/06 have)) is spinning at about 2700revolutions/second as it exits the barrel. That rotation continues at nearly that speed until it hits something.
All this has to do with bullet stabilization related to the spin rate imparted by the barrel. M16 was famous for tumbling because of slow twist rate initially used and the short 55gr bullet oringally used. The bullet didn't explode they wobbled and tumbled. If you want to see a demonstration of this, google bullet spinning on ice. There are several videos showing bullets spinning like tops when shot into a ice surface. One showed an AK47 bullet spinning on its tip that took over a minute to stop spinning.
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Charles,
If you browse the Indian fellow's other videos, two things become obvious:
1. He promotes or sells airguns.
2. That muzzle attachment is made for the Indian market. It takes a "cork" that is loaded with some sort of blank primer and powder, for the purpose of making noise. The expected use is to shoot it up into the air. "Why", is a whole other matter.
So, that guy is not abusing his airgun when he shoots it with all that oil in the breech. He is abusing some future buyer's airgun. The Indian comments on youtube were "where can I get one"; and "how much does it cost?". So, the clap and smoke when dieseling are seen as a plus; not "how does one make it less attention grabbing".
The attached screengrab image below provides some insight into Mr Dangi's beliefs about shooting into the air. He seems to think that shooting straight up into the air is safe. Also, because shooting at 30 degrees above the horizon is also "shooting into the air"; it too is "safe".
Fictional character, Austin Powers said, "danger is my middle name". I wonder if Mr Dangi's last name is real, or a pseudonym.
Anyway, us discussing or criticizing a cultural "thing" here is likely to end poorly. That is also why youtube is not likely to remove the video. The term "gun safety" does not mean the same thing to all people. Not even in the US.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=194136.0;attach=383875;image)
Maybe you could convince Mr. Dangi to shoot himself to prove that it is safe and unharmful. ;D ;D
-Y
PS maybe straight down into his sandal clad foot. ;)
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Oh-you guys don't think I suggested this was safe??
I was stunned when I saw him let thast shot loose over the park-crazy
And the horizontal velocity might be "just" 50 fps
But he is aiming up-the vertical velocity-terminal velocity-might be well over 50 fps-not that 50 fps from a pointy lead pellet-is harmless in the eye-
It might very well puncture your eye-depending on if it was open or lidded
Kinda puzzled that the fellow-RAKESH- responded and thought it was completely safe??
I get the feeling he is SERIOUS-not just lying to cover up but actually believes that?
The cut below is based on ancient-HATCHER work-if a .30 only gets to 300 fps-pellet will be much less-maybe just 50 fps-but 50fps-in a kids eye-open eye-enough to damage it
As a result of these obstacles, the experimental results are mixed. Hatcher calculated that his .30-caliber rifle bullets reached terminal velocity—the speed at which air resistance balances the accelerating force of gravity—at 300 feet per second. You might die from a bullet moving at that speed, but it’s unlikely. Lighter bullets, like those fired from a 9mm handgun, max out at even lower speeds, between 150 and 250 feet per second, according to computer models.
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I think that Rakesh Dangi was sincere in his comment and belief that shooting into the air is "safe". Else, he would have deleted the comment criticizing him for shooting over that tree.
The nearest practical analogy is to ask at what range one is safe from shot used at a skeet range? That is fired at a variety of angles; and what goes up must come down. There is a reason why skeet ranges do not permit shot larger than 7 1/2 pellet size. Its terminal velocity is low enough that it won't actually hurt anyone. And its max range short enough that a few hundred yard perimeter around the range creates a safe zone. Yet, no skeet range is designed to allow shot to fall on another person.
An 8 grain pellet probably has a lower terminal velocity than an 8 grain BB. Especially a wadcutter pellet. The point is that one needs to know; not assume how far away people are, and that your projectile won't ever reach them. People move freely in public park. It is not a range.
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How long do you think his piston seals last? I'm sure he does a brisk business supplying them.
You have no idea how many hunting shots I have NOT taken because I was unsure of the back ground....In the one in a million chance that I would miss.... ;D ;D
-Y
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That chubby english bloke, you know the tubby yorkshire pudding fellow who goes to many Aof A shooting envents. I believe his name is Giles.
He has a video, pretty cool actually, where he lays down next to a pick-up truck with bed extended. On the bed is an exploding target. He shoots straight up, rolls under the pick-up. and waits for the pellet to land.
It took him about 150-200 shots till he finally got it. ;D
Moral of the story. Whatever the terminal velocity of those pellets was, was enough to activate the exploding target.
See if you can find it, sure is a hoot. ;D ;)
-Y
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I'm beginning to wonder here, are we discussing German airguns or what? While I like Hatcher's Notebook (got to read an autographed copy), I don't think much more can be gained from perusing it. (If Hatcher had only had a YouTube channel. Just think! 😉 ) Long story short, guys who don't follow good handling are, sadly, a dime a dozen. I'm thankful that the folks here are not of that ilk.
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Hatchers notebook deals with external ballistics and this thread has become a discussion of external ballistics, so I would say it applies. It applies directly to this discussion, I'm not sure how closely it applies to the original topic. But somehow we got onto the topic of shooting 2 pellets at once, etc, etc. So it went off on a tangent, which is something which happens to most of my discussions in real life, so just seems normal.
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I'm beginning to wonder here, are we discussing German airguns or what? While I like Hatcher's Notebook (got to read an autographed copy), I don't think much more can be gained from perusing it. (If Hatcher had only had a YouTube channel. Just think! 😉 ) Long story short, guys who don't follow good handling are, sadly, a dime a dozen. I'm thankful that the folks here are not of that ilk.
FWIW-I love the range that I go to. One of the reasons is because they take safety seriously. ;)
-Y
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Slight aside
But Rakesh(a likable guy) and promoting air rifles in India is good for us-USA.
The more folks who shoot air rifles-worlds wide-the more guns and projectiles will be available to us.
Oh-anyone see the Rakesh price video? Obviously everyone else in India does not share Rakesh's casual attitude toward safety.
He is with a Air Rifle shop owner- he gives price-specs of 8-10 rifles.
As he casually hands the rifle back to the owner-with the muzzles pointing directly at the owners abdomen The owner unobtrusively redirects the muzzles away from his gut.
Rakesh-did not seem to pick up on the message-congenial guy-but tone deaf safety wise
Anyway forgive my asides-but they gave lots of prices-you guys must be curious about them
Rupee are 76 to a $
Diana 350 magnum 45,000 Rupees= $590-mine was $290 delivered- heavily discounted- I think Diana 350's usually $350-$400 plus Tax shipping
A Crosman Nitro Piston 40,000 rupee =$526 It might have had some sort of auto loading-semi auto- gadget on top-
It sells for 40,000 RUPEE- $526 wow-
my Crosman Phantom NP-$95- walmart
Anyway I could see the $600 for a wood stock Diana-or a Weihrauch-but not $500 for a nitro piston anything.