GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Diana Airguns => Topic started by: fwbsport on March 19, 2020, 03:17:03 PM
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I was given a message the .20 Project in the D54 was just about complete and ready for sending!
I wanted to start the thread introducing this as a "Project" for others to see for themselves with descriptions about what he did and why he did what he did (Hector Medina).
He has velocity and pellet weight for JSB HEAVIES 15.89gr (unlubed) (I wanted THOSE instead of the lite weights at 13.73gr) and 40 yard accuracy testing along with another device testing speed of something else--Pellet Dwelling Time?).
I've asked him to share the project even showing his "mistakes" he encountered along the way!
He can share the pictures here if he wants! And his "notes"!
J
;D
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That gun should be a killer! I have re barreled a few 48's in .20cal with LW barrels that were absolute tack drivers! and 1 of my favorite long range hunting rifles! I think u'll luv it! ;)
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Yes. He gave a price list of everything he did. Someone asked me in a pm what it costs:
I'll keep that private unless HM is okay listing the itemizations. It was pricey! (hehehehehehhe!).
J
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So, let's start with a little history:
Back in 2010, when I was moving to the USA and in agreement with Frank Walther (L-W) & Martin Zedler (DIANA), we got together to make some limited/special runs, one of them (the last run made) was of the Air King Mod.54 using a 0.20" cal L-W barrel built to my specs specially for the JSB 13.7 grs. pellets.
Long story short, some "buyers" renegged on their purchase and the company had to "eat" a number of guns, a rather large number of guns. That nearly drove me to bankruptcy, but with patience and perseverance, we kept on developing technology and we came out of the hole.
Fast forward 10 years later, and now and then I get shows of interest on whatever is remaining of those limited runs. MOST shooters feel that the price of the custom work needed is beyond their reach/possibilities, or they prefer to have a stable of nags as opposed to having one or two thoroughbreds. Different strokes for different folks.
Over time, experience has taught me that the best customer is the one that knows what he wants, has researched, and is informed (preferably by first hand experiences) of what a true custom gun can do. BUT, in the case of the DIANA 54/56 that is not common.
They all start as expensive airguns ($500 to $700 depending on the stock), and adding custom work to an expensive stock is usually counter-intuitive.
As someone put it (SIC): "If I pay that much money I want a gun that is perfect out of the box!"
Key thing here is: "¿What is perfect for YOU?"
We all, obviously, have different definitions of what is "perfect" and so, we're back to "Different strokes . . ."
Now, in the Spring-Piston airgun world, the rarest of birds are those guns that can shoot with high power levels (20 ft-lbs and up) and still have a smooth shot cycle. Or at least an ENJOYABLE shot cycle.
To ME, the most enjoyable of shot cycles are those that do not require the "artillery hold". Too many years of Service Rifle and High Power Silhouette, I guess. I cannot hold a gun "lightly". It makes me pull the trigger instead of squeezing it (flinch).
I also know that some things seem too good to be true and they are hard to describe in writing. So, when John and I "met" (not in the best of terms, I have to admit), and he mentioned something about not believing all the hype, well the answer was a simple one: send him a gun, fully decked out and with pellets, and have him shoot it.
Back came all the comments about sidecocking being an "unnatural act" (and when an army chaplain uses those words, we all know what that means, LOL!), the gun being "ugly", the case getting on his way and scraping his ankles (stupid case didn't get out of the way fast enough ;-P), etc.
But the hits kept on piling. And the idea of accepting something different as valid started to flourish.
And so it was that the time came to return the test gun.
And it was his wife the one that suggested to John looking into the possibility of getting a gun made for him like the one he had just tested (now, THAT'S a GEM of a wife!)
It was October 2019 and I was driving long range to a competition, but we agreed on a price. NO down payment, just a serious commitment to buy when ready.
And so the build started.
First came the shooting in process, that to be properly done, needs at least 250 shots with the OEM setup.
At 60 shots per week, that took almost a month.
BUT, as shots go by, you actually SEE the groups tightening in. Here is a FEW of the shooting in targets:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3471/4S20Pd.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2629/t2w3ZQ.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8541/OWD9fM.jpg)
And so on and on and on.
It is important to mention that these targets were shot with the OEM Iron sights, offhand, at 10 meters.
The Special run came OEM with the best Iron sights DIANA had; a flat base muzzle piece with Korn tunnel and 4 inserts:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/9820/0IKAiL.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img510/3199/d34kp20sightinserts.jpg)
Once the running in was done, then came the makeover of the powerplant.
This I had to do twice, because I had been toying with the idea of a special piston head and I tried that, but the material I used (Machinable MoS2 infused Nylon) compressed ever so slightly and after 200 shots, the gun would not finish the cocking stroke. So I went to the previous standard (MkXVII). I'll have to look into it in detail because the tiny difference in the shape of the piston head produced almost 15% more energy.
In any case, the changeover implies (do note that this pictures correspond to a Mark XI series, these are NOT John's gun):
Polishing smooth the Compression chamber.
Installing a Full Power HMO piston:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9392/tn3owm.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4622/u27lMj.jpg)
Changing the spring to a Titan XS with custom guide.
Stabilizing the front sled with buttons.
Tuning the rear sled to the power level being used.
Complete disassembly, honing and tuning of the trigger.
Installing external retaining rings on trigger pivots (again, this is a typical picture, it's not John's gun)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img911/228/5LPA3o.jpg)
Installing a steel-reinforced breech seal (HMR breech seal).
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/340/UZxYNv.jpg)
And once all that is done to the power plant, the ZR mount has been Accurized:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4736/DWC9R0.jpg)
AND Scope installed.
THEN the process of regulating the barrel can take place:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3398/nvgVp4.jpg)
When the barrel had been regulated, I performed the tuning process with the Harmonics tuner offered as part of the price agreed, these were the initial tests:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9216/KgkuDk.jpg)
Then the refinement of the three more useful settings:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/7766/90HvNH.jpg)
And finally the checking of the result:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4360/Q7LXCD.jpg)
Up until this moment, the idea had been to use the JSB 13.7's for which the barrel was designed, lubed with Pledge, or T-9, these barrels are extremely accurate.
BUT, in the meantime (3 months had passed), John had purchased a gun with a "can" and wanted something similar in this gun.
He also expressed the absolute need to use the same heavy pellets he was using in his other 0.20" cals straight from the tin (UNLUBED), so the whole tune had to change, as we would have no longer the harmonics tuning possibility of the HT, nor the lubing of the pellets.
I offered him a purpose built reflex unit, because I am not partial to extremely long guns, and the reflex architecture adds little length to the OAL, while still doing a more than acceptable job as far as taming the bark is concerned.
Because I had never done one before, I had to start from scratch, test a few ideas and then finalize a design. In the end, happily, the Reflex unit ALSO performs the function of a Harmonics tuner and adds only about 1"to the OAL while reducing the signature from 118 dB to 108 db, this is in reality substantial, because every 3dB is about halving the sound pressure (what our ears perceive as sound), and so, at 30 meters (about 33 yards) the shot is indistinguishable under a normal conversation level (70 dB) background noise. So, the Reflex unit abates the noise to about 1/8 of the original sound.
Here is the gun compared to an OEM 54 with the standard muzzle piece:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9283/Ez5Tb1.jpg)
And here are the readings of the dB meter (used "C" weighing, fast response):
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7082/FmWI5Q.jpg)
The gun is now printing consistent groups of about 3/8" c-c at 35 meters (38.5 yards), with the specified pellets. Yielding 20 ft-lbs at the muzzle.
For a heavy pellet in a spring piston airgun, that is good performance.
With the previous test piston, the gun was yielding 24 ft-lbs at the muzzle with the 13.7 grainers. I would assume that with the 13.7, it is now yielding about 22 ft-lbs.
Trigger is crisp and still has room for adjustment either way.
Added a leather cheekpiece because to shoot offhand properly, there is nothing as tiring as having to drop your head to scope level, or keep the head floating around. That is a NEED with the artillery hold, but is unproductive with the 54's recoil-less system.
The gun itself costs $1,250, pricey? maybe, but if it is the ONLY gun you are going to shoot (and it CAN be, because you can do anything you want), then I THINK it is a worthwhile investment.
With the added moderator, scope, mount, case and delivery, it tops at $1767. Delivered to the door, fully insured, complete, just add pellets and go.
The gun also gives John room for further tuning. If his lot of pellets is different from what I was using, he will probably have to add or remove spacing ORings in the moderator/tuner. He can tinker with the trigger a little either way, heavier or lighter.
If he decides to use a different pellet, the gun will accommodate, up to a point, by being adjustable.
Has it been a long process? YES, 5 months is a long time, undoubtedly. It is not easy to hit a moving target (specs changing along the project) and I am not the complete owner of my time.
And in here a few comments to anyone contemplating the use of a professional tuner:
1.- When the price has been forgotten, the performance and the quality of the tune/materials should still be there and put a smile on your face every time you get the gun out.
2.- Yes it is expensive, but beyond the money, the TIME a professional will take with YOUR gun is invaluable. IN this sense, do NOT keep on asking when the gun is going to be ready. It will be ready when it is ready, not a day before, not a day after; and if you ask too much, you WILL get your gun back instantly, but in the same condition as you sent it. We are professionals, we know people want their guns, we KNOW that you are impatient to start shooting your new toy. BUT the quality of the work and of the sustainable results is more important than meeting an imagined deadline.
3.- If you think you are paying for someone to install some bits and pieces of steel, aluminum, Carbon Fiber, and brass; you are not the correct candidate for a "bespoke" tune. When you realize that you are paying for the knowledge and experience of the guy on the other side of the workbench, then go ahead and use a professional.
Overall, it was an interesting and very enlightening challenge doing this gun, which is different from any other gun I have ever built, but that I hope it is the gun John dreamed of.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Thanks for the report Hector.
Did the rifle already have the .20 barrel on it or was it one you replaced?
I know you said there was a factory run of these guns that never sold.
Also glad you made it back safely from Germany.
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Well it's this way, my "impatience" was held in check by Hector and I picked up on this right away. It was unusual for me to be told when it's ready it'll be sent and predicting a "ready to send" date for the gunsmith means no back talk and questions about when.
I always liked the Diana Model 54 Air King and always watched prices on them since 20 years ago. I knew springer (break barrel) recoil always was PART of the problem in maintaining consistency and the fixed MACHINE Diana 54 barrel on rollers fascinated me. Why? Because the worst part of off hand shooting is having to reposition the head ever time the same artillery hold way. PCPs are the opposite in this without hold sensitivity. Those can go really high power, I had a .30 BOSS (FX) I sold to a member here. That's because I realized in my own shooting world PCP power is more than enough! I've made shots close to 100 yards with a gas ram that is smooth firing with short pellet dwelling time. That rifle was a Theoben Eliminator .20 with a Weaver V16. I GAVE it to a Chief Warrant Chinook Pilot. Another story.
I had already the .20 HW97K-T, offhand it's a beast.
I found a new .20 in the HW80, and the next to last air rifle I bought (before this one in the post) was the HW98 .20. The first is truly a killer in power. Using the 15.89 gr JSBs the rifle is a lazer and kills like one. All the way through and no movement AT ALL from the squirrel except to drop with gravity.
Then Hector sent me the Diana 54 .20 he had built and both my wife and her sister Becky saw me unpack it and mess up my ankles on the Apache case! I took out the rifle and ratcheted it up and both women commented it was the UGLIEST thing they'd ever seen and they were worried about me using it (because of my shoulders and hips being operated on and replaced with Titanium)!
At first the side cock was time consuming to do properly, and I took my time everytime when firing another shot. I remembered the Sherlock Holme story about an air rifle being used to kill someone and Sherlock had to solve the mystery as to how and when the air gun was used. It WAS a SIDE COCKING weapon and took a lot of strength to cock--just like a Diana 54 today.
When I allowed myself to enter the side cocking realm I expected some adjusting in time, but the mechanism as a whole is PSSC Physics proof!
Caliber in .20 I'm quite familiar with in the Silver Streak Sheridan .20 that was out in the 70s--my dad owned that air rifle and I used it on occasion and then added a Benjamin 322.
The power levels on the Sheridan/Benjamin were enough for any pellet shooting--the only drawback is having to reload and pump up again to 6 on the Sheridan and 8 on the Benjamin. These rifles were very important to me in demonstrating a satisfactory level of power (velocity) and accuracy out to 40 or 50 yards easy.
Springers like the R1 came out in the 80s and that took me from the "R7" to there, and I knew the R1 was powerful enough for anything I had a right to use a pellet on.
There were "modifications" that in time changed or evolved the original project like the piston not cocking on the first assembly from Hector, but he was the one who would suggest what to do and I was flexible. The line was the .20 in Diana 45 and then the moderator and tuning and shooting was added embellishment to the "final machine".
Whether it's Hector's Third 54 .20 or 30th 54 it was really the fact that while on his way to do this rifle he said "Live and Learn" about learning something that went "wrong", the piston thing. When a gunsmith has a failure along the way it makes you question what the gunsmith is doing! I never questioned him, even though it was disheartening to hear.
The caliber choice for a rifle that you sort of have special is always a consideration. I have had many times when I'm out with my HW80 .25 (this one digs trenches in the lawn if I hit too low!) that THAT caliber would be the "best" choice, and then I take out the HW98 .20 and rethink the whole idea about power and accuracy and what matters to me which is make a killing shot on the squirrel within 40 yards. I've seen the .20 and the .22 work on squirrels with either R1 or R9 strength, and I've seen the .177 enough on squirrels compare, and for some reason the .20 and the .25 ARE calibers that really need serious relook when thinking about getting another air rifle.
I already have the .25 Eliminator which is lighter than any R1 by the way, and even though it has 69 lbs of cocking force it is very very smooth and the motion is instinctive for me to cock it just like an HW80 without having to use my KNEES!
So if I was to ask Hector for another one, it'd be the Diana 54 in .25!
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Hector
Fantastic write up on what constitutes a truly custom build. Thanks for allowing us an inside peek to world of gunsmithing.
Mitch
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Thanks for the report Hector.
Did the rifle already have the .20 barrel on it or was it one you replaced?
I know you said there was a factory run of these guns that never sold.
Also glad you made it back safely from Germany.
Yes, Rodger;
L-W agreed to machine the barrels to DIANA's specs with the exception of the "Hector's Match Crown", which is a dished Match Crown I designed to make it easy to lathe turn the crown without the need to center and indicate the bore, it is the same crown we used in all the builds:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img809/6361/1001208f.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img651/4828/d34kp20matchcrown.jpg)
DIANA then took the L-W barrels and built the guns around them, this only happened 3 times in 130 years, and it could only come true because both Frank and Martin had faith in what I was doing.
The run was limited to 30 units, and since then, no more 0.20" cal. rifles have been made.
I BARELY made it back, my flight left Frankfurt at noon of Wednesday. On Thursday, Executive Orders came down to close all flights from Europe.
I really do not know what I would have done if I had been "marooned" in Germany for a month or two. Luckily, I made it.
Thanks for your kind words, as always.
HM
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Well it's this way, my "impatience" was held in check by Hector and I picked up on this right away. It was unusual for me to be told when it's ready it'll be sent and predicting a "ready to send" date for the gunsmith means no back talk and questions about when.
I always liked the Diana Model 54 Air King and always watched prices on them since 20 years ago. I knew springer (break barrel) recoil always was PART of the problem in maintaining consistency and the fixed MACHINE Diana 54 barrel on rollers fascinated me. Why? Because the worst part of off hand shooting is having to reposition the head ever time the same artillery hold way. PCPs are the opposite in this without hold sensitivity. Those can go really high power, I had a .30 BOSS (FX) I sold to a member here. That's because I realized in my own shooting world PCP power is more than enough! I've made shots close to 100 yards with a gas ram that is smooth firing with short pellet dwelling time. That rifle was a Theoben Eliminator .20 with a Weaver V16. I GAVE it to a Chief Warrant Chinook Pilot. Another story.
I had already the .20 HW97K-T, offhand it's a beast.
I found a new .20 in the HW80, and the next to last air rifle I bought (before this one in the post) was the HW98 .20. The first is truly a killer in power. Using the 15.89 gr JSBs the rifle is a lazer and kills like one. All the way through and no movement AT ALL from the squirrel except to drop with gravity.
Then Hector sent me the Diana 54 .20 he had built and both my wife and her sister Becky saw me unpack it and mess up my ankles on the Apache case! I took out the rifle and ratcheted it up and both women commented it was the UGLIEST thing they'd ever seen and they were worried about me using it (because of my shoulders and hips being operated on and replaced with Titanium)!
At first the side cock was time consuming to do properly, and I took my time everytime when firing another shot. I remembered the Sherlock Holme story about an air rifle being used to kill someone and Sherlock had to solve the mystery as to how and when the air gun was used. It WAS a SIDE COCKING weapon and took a lot of strength to cock--just like a Diana 54 today.
When I allowed myself to enter the side cocking realm I expected some adjusting in time, but the mechanism as a whole is PSSC Physics proof!
Caliber in .20 I'm quite familiar with in the Silver Streak Sheridan .20 that was out in the 70s--my dad owned that air rifle and I used it on occasion and then added a Benjamin 322.
The power levels on the Sheridan/Benjamin were enough for any pellet shooting--the only drawback is having to reload and pump up again to 6 on the Sheridan and 8 on the Benjamin. These rifles were very important to me in demonstrating a satisfactory level of power (velocity) and accuracy out to 40 or 50 yards easy.
Springers like the R1 came out in the 80s and that took me from the "R7" to there, and I knew the R1 was powerful enough for anything I had a right to use a pellet on.
There were "modifications" that in time changed or evolved the original project like the piston not cocking on the first assembly from Hector, but he was the one who would suggest what to do and I was flexible. The line was the .20 in Diana 45 and then the moderator and tuning and shooting was added embellishment to the "final machine".
Whether it's Hector's Third 54 .20 or 30th 54 it was really the fact that while on his way to do this rifle he said "Live and Learn" about learning something that went "wrong", the piston thing. When a gunsmith has a failure along the way it makes you question what the gunsmith is doing! I never questioned him, even though it was disheartening to hear.
The caliber choice for a rifle that you sort of have special is always a consideration. I have had many times when I'm out with my HW80 .25 (this one digs trenches in the lawn if I hit too low!) that THAT caliber would be the "best" choice, and then I take out the HW98 .20 and rethink the whole idea about power and accuracy and what matters to me which is make a killing shot on the squirrel within 40 yards. I've seen the .20 and the .22 work on squirrels with either R1 or R9 strength, and I've seen the .177 enough on squirrels compare, and for some reason the .20 and the .25 ARE calibers that really need serious relook when thinking about getting another air rifle.
I already have the .25 Eliminator which is lighter than any R1 by the way, and even though it has 69 lbs of cocking force it is very very smooth and the motion is instinctive for me to cock it just like an HW80 without having to use my KNEES!
So if I was to ask Hector for another one, it'd be the Diana 54 in .25!
John;
It was VERY nice working with you on this project.
I greatly appreciate the trust you put on me.
Thanks!
HM
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Hector
Fantastic write up on what constitutes a truly custom build. Thanks for allowing us an inside peek to world of gunsmithing.
Mitch
Mitch;
Always a pleasure hearing from you.
Thanks!
HM
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Just amazing. For it to produce those groups at 20fpe! is nothing short of remarkable. That rifle shouldn't even be considered a 54 anymore with all the work put into it. It's practically a different gun. Really looking forward to what you can do with the new gas spring Dianas that come out Hector.
Also glad you made it home just in time.
Best regards!
-Adrian
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Very illuminating and enjoyable read Hector ;),
After digesting your process, I hope more folks on the GTA can (better) understand why a (Professional) tune will make a gun more functional/enjoyable to shoot than something out-of-the-box.
To be "right-on" the tune has to be shaped for the desired purpose and caliber/weight chosen by the end user.
After doing about 35/40 (more basic) tunes on Springers, I'm starting to understand how many adjustments have definite positive/negative affects on the functionality of other components.
Building a World Class Springer is very similar to designing a fine race car - be prepared to sell out the $$$, because a much time, thought and craftsmanship went into its design 8).
Hector, you continue to be a very inspirational GTA contributor for US at home, want-to-be tuners
... Thank You :D.
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Just amazing. For it to produce those groups at 20fpe! is nothing short of remarkable. That rifle shouldn't even be considered a 54 anymore with all the work put into it. It's practically a different gun. Really looking forward to what you can do with the new gas spring Dianas that come out Hector.
Also glad you made it home just in time.
Best regards!
-Adrian
Adrian;
Thanks for your kind words.
The 34 EMS will be on the shelves soon. Perhaps a month or two delay from the previously mentioned May-June time frame, this COVID-19 crisis is truly making the world grind to a stop (except for China that is already on the way to recovery). I am expecting some news on Monday to see just how much I can disclose here about the new rifles.
To get to your point:
ALL 34 EMS will come out with a steel spring. They have to, in order to meet the expected price point.
BUT, changing to an NTec gas piston was a piece of cake. Took me about 10 minutes to do it with relatively little tools (relatively because it was not MY workshop and I had to borrow EVERYTHING, LOL!)
Assuming the worst of cases, it should take anyone not more than 25 minutes to do the changeover, and from there you can change back and forth as much as you want because the piston itself never needs to leave the gun.
I am also working on an ABP insert for this new architecture, whether DIANA will want to market it as a an aftermarket accessory, or not will also be decided in the next few weeks. All tests done in the Mauser AM03 platform (the closest that we have to the EMS under the present line) tell me that it is truly an interesting bit of kit. Because the efficiency goes up substantially. And if you need less work to get the same energy output, then there is less energy to go into harmonics, recoil, noise, etc.
Just to give you an idea: it takes 22.5 lbs of peak cocking force to reach the 12 ft-lbs yield. ALMOST as good as the short-stroked D54, and the 54 has a short transfer port.
Anyway, we'll see, the more I understand the differences between Long TP's and Short TP's the more I am convinced that we are JUST beginning to truly understand spring-piston airguns.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Very illuminating and enjoyable read Hector ;),
After digesting your process, I hope more folks on the GTA can (better) understand why a (Professional) tune will make a gun more functional/enjoyable to shoot than something out-of-the-box.
To be "right-on" the tune has to be shaped for the desired purpose and caliber/weight chosen by the end user.
After doing about 35/40 (more basic) tunes on Springers, I'm starting to understand how many adjustments have definite positive/negative affects on the functionality of other components.
Building a World Class Springer is very similar to designing a fine race car - be prepared to sell out the $$$, because a much time, thought and craftsmanship went into its design 8).
Hector, you continue to be a very inspirational GTA contributor for US at home, want-to-be tuners
... Thank You :D.
Kirk;
Thanks for your kind words.
The analogy you make of the race car is more "spot on" than you might think.
When you drive a machine to the edges of performance, you also open up the door to a "bad driver" destroying it.
When John and I were beginning to setup the test period one of the things I said to him was exactly this.
Luckily, he is a smart and dedicated guy and he learned how to operate the race car without burning the engine or crashing into the sidewalls.
;-)
Again, thanks, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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I am also working on an ABP insert for this new architecture, whether DIANA will want to market it as a an aftermarket accessory, or not will also be decided in the next few weeks. All tests done in the Mauser AM03 platform (the closest that we have to the EMS under the present line) tell me that it is truly an interesting bit of kit. Because the efficiency goes up substantially. And if you need less work to get the same energy output, then there is less energy to go into harmonics, recoil, noise, etc.
Just to give you an idea: it takes 22.5 lbs of peak cocking force to reach the 12 ft-lbs yield. ALMOST as good as the short-stroked D54, and the 54 has a short transfer port.
That is great news!!! Aside from covid-19, oh what a time to be alive. Tome Gore of Vortek also recently announced pneumatic tune kits incoming, promising a smoother than ever shot cycle. Although I just don't get why he's starting with the relatively well-behaved 30s/R7 platform. You'd think there'd be more money in making a kit for the 34s, 95s, 97s, 48s and 80s first? Us consumers will be spoiled for options in the near future for sure. ;D Thanks to you, the engineers at Diana and also people like Tom Gore who continue to innovate tuning options for the average joe airgunner who may not have the tools, skills and experience to bring out the full potential of their springers. Really, really looking forward to this Hector.
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That is great news!!! Aside from covid-19, oh what a time to be alive. Tome Gore of Vortek also recently announced pneumatic tune kits incoming, promising a smoother than ever shot cycle. Although I just don't get why he's starting with the relatively well-behaved 30s/R7 platform. You'd think there'd be more money in making a kit for the 34s, 95s, 97s, 48s and 80s first? Us consumers will be spoiled for options in the near future for sure. ;D Thanks to you, the engineers at Diana and also people like Tom Gore who continue to innovate tuning options for the average joe airgunner who may not have the tools, skills and experience to bring out the full potential of their springers. Really, really looking forward to this Hector.
Adrian;
You can read a little more here:
https://airgunwarriors.com/community/airgun-talk/what-the-heck-is-tom-doing-now/#post-36193
There is much to look forward to once this "Quarantine" is over.
Keep healthy and shoot straight!
HM
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Nice air gun, FWB sir!
Does FWB mean friends with benefits?
;D
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Rick,
Friends with benefits!
I DO have an FWB Sport .177, and many times I have thought to CHANGE my label just on account of finding better things for me than the .177 FWB Sport since after I purchased it. However, each time I look at the rifle I realize it is way different than HW or Diana, and NO ONE ELSE makes something like it.
There is certain refinement in the FWB Sport that is unsurpassed by our usual other less expensive choices. As time went I rescoped the FWB Sport and found THE SCOPE it likes! A silly thing like that saved the rifle from sitting around doing nothing. No trigger is as good, no pellet dwelling time is shorter (it equals the speed of the Theoben Eliminator almost in firing) but it is hold sensitive in a way HWs ARE NOT!
It takes time with a Feinwerkbau to "know" it. Not so much time with the HW or even the D54 which I never shot until Hector's arrived.
I've heard a lot of dissing about the SPORT being overpriced and done so just by name, but who has a bad FWB around here that needs fixing more often than an HW?
I look at all the posts on tuning thinking that's never done in FWB cases, or if it is it is an "old one" that could use a new seal or something to get it back to par. Then the compaint the parts and stuff aren't around as easy as that, and the price of parts may be a lot higher for proprietary equipment not "sprung out" by self made tuning experts selling their jobs (tunes) with lesser or similar quality at the cost of the spring not being as strong to last long or too strong to destroy the innards of the chamber etc.
The FWB Sport WILL shoot for you OUT OF THE BOX.
So will many of the HW specialty rifles with mufflers like the HW80K .22 Long Range Hunter. That was accurate out of the box and stays that way without losing zero and NO BARREL CLEANING! The HW98 .20 WOULD have been my last rifle if Hector's .20 came BEFORE it! I would have gotten it sooner or later and when I did a LOT of things that used to bug me about shooting offhand were cleared away!
I could see the same thing with Hector's own tuned rifle before I got the HW98 .20. The HW98 .20 shoots really smoothly with ENOUGH power to boot! As soon as I realized this amidst the PISTON problem Hector had I said to him I wasn't worried about getting as much power from it as we thought we could anyway. And then the final product went forward again with this in mind.
On steel these rifles all have the power to hit them so hard they mostly flip up, slam into the "holding area" and bounce BACK DOWN to the ready-to-shoot postition. It takes MORE power than an HW50 or HW35E to do this! On the live target, "tree rats" we DO have--robbing birds nests (like Cardinals) around here as well as raising the blood pressure on our dogs who SEE them! I used the HW98 .20 on one and the SAME result as if I was using the HW80 .20! So the "hunt" for the .20 is a very satisfying rifle in lower or higher power. Often the struggle is the tiny .177 over the big .22, when you can get the best of BOTH worlds; and if you really do need a BIG pellet use the .25!
The rifle arrives Thursday by end of day. That's day after tomorrow!
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The D54 Will Make a nice . 20. Having rebarreled the D52 to the LW . 20 I KNOW for a fact what can be had. The D460 in .20 LW barrel was another true magnum build. It shot some what faster than the D52 but the D 48 was on of my favorites in . 20.
But for a real ride the D350 angle barrel block rebarrel . 20 LW was a beast.
Now all these builds were years ago and had big wire springs and all my work. No spring kits.
Jmo I have been and still are a .20 fan from way back. Factory guns and my own builds. Shooting an old TalonP Condor power plant shooting 14.3 1020+. And yes accuracte out to right now 75 yards. No even turned up.
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Thanks WF!
The rifle got here at 2:05pm in perfect condition.
I shot it four times at the steel downrange and couldn't see where the pellet was going so I aimed at a knot 30 yards away in the fence and saw I was hitting about 1" and 2" to the left!
Before making adjustments on the scope I'm going to use the original zero and compensate by aiming lower and left!
Not enough time to "group" it off-hand, but it is shooting VERY QUICKLY!
My wife thinks it's a BEAUTIFUL rifle by the way....
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Thanks WF!
The rifle got here at 2:05pm in perfect condition.
I shot it four times at the steel downrange and couldn't see where the pellet was going so I aimed at a knot 30 yards away in the fence and saw I was hitting about 1" and 2" to the left!
Before making adjustments on the scope I'm going to use the original zero and compensate by aiming lower and left!
Not enough time to "group" it off-hand, but it is shooting VERY QUICKLY!
My wife thinks it's a BEAUTIFUL rifle by the way....
Kindly post photos, John sir!
I only shot a D54 once, an unmodified one, and it impressed me BIG time!
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Richard,
I currently have 2 54’s, (1) 22 and )1) 177 CCA . They are the best springers you will ever shoot. Full disclosure, (1) more on order in .20 CCA.
Thank you Hector.
Mitch
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Richard,
I currently have 2 54’s, (1) 22 and )1) 177 CCA . They are the best springers you will ever shoot. Full disclosure, (1) more on order in .20 CCA.
Thank you Hector.
Mitch
I stared at it everytime I pulled the trigger ;D
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Richard,
I currently have 2 54’s, (1) 22 and )1) 177 CCA . They are the best springers you will ever shoot. Full disclosure, (1) more on order in .20 CCA.
Thank you Hector.
Mitch
Thank YOU, Mitch!
Keep well, stay healthy and shoot straight!
HM
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Great to hear‼️
The D54 is as close to a pcp as it gets in a spring gun.
The .20 has a place in today's hobby but it also has limits depending on what your intentions are. Paper, small game or prey your are set. But as always placed shots are the key on prey with any caliber but the . 25 is a thumper at close range in a spring gun.
Off subject but the . 25 is better suited for a PCP IMO. IT SHINES like a new Penny ‼️
Enjoy the new gun‼️💀
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Thank you all!
It's sighted in off hand right hand at 25 yards on the nose! It only took that ONE adjustment on the scope both ways, 4 clicks RIGHT and 4 clicks DOWN to hit center steel, which I have never done as easily before in my life! Imagine picking up a scoped rifle that fits you perfectly without adjustment! With scope! The Leather Glove is a GREAT addition! Instead of Hector's cigar smell on HIS .20 D54 I have LEATHER smell!
I just pulled it out of the Apache case and began shooting it without any snags. OH! The rifle weighs exactly 12 lbs! (unloaded--just kidding!) with the whole set up.
My M-14 Supermatch is 11 lbs, Hector's Special is a pound heavier and that makes it the HEAVIEST long arm I have! But I don't "feel" the weight for what the rifle does FOR me! It makes offhand shooting the easiest possible.
Now my favorite rifle is the Hector Special!
;D
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The least I can do is send a photo to Hector of me shooting it. It will take more than a snapshot of a lone rifle!
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John,
The 54’s are very similar to a M14, I had my nephew with me at the range shooting his Garande. He couldn’t get over the fact my air rifle was bigger.
They are a hoot to shoot with Williams sights.
Mitch
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Nice when the stars line up and all goes better that planned.
Might be time to brake out my R1 .20.
Been having to much fun on my project AF . 20. Talk about a learning curve on this build. Lucky that I had many parts.
Right now after a hammer spring change I might be done. It's a snappy shooter.
Stocked up on the 14.3 over the years and the LW barrels love them. But I am on the power side of a . 20. 💀⚠️
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@John.- I am REALLY glad you are liking it. As long as you stick to the instructions, the gun will perform for many, many, many shots.
@ Whitefang.- At 22 ft-lbs in 0.20" (using the 13.7's) the 54 is no slouch. And I THINK I can achieve 24 with the specially shaped piston head that I tried first, I just need to make the head 1.0 to 1.5 mm's longer. That's something I need to work on, but will require a more than a lot of shots to be able to adopt it as the Mark XIX version.
I also love the Talon, specially the SS's, I am preparing a blog entry about a pure hunter. 28 ft-lbs/21.1 grs in 0.22" with the 12"moderated barrel; up to 38 ft-lbs with the 25 grs slugs. 55 good shots out of a 220 BAR fill, unregulated, but ES is 15 fps, Sd is 5 fps. They are incredible machines, if somewhat "primitive".
With a laser rangefinding scope, it's a treat to hit anything, anywhere, in sight.
@ Mitch.- You will love the front sight arrangement of the CCA D54. ;-)
Keep well, safe and healthy, and shoot straight!
HM
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I decided I was good enough to e x t e n d m y r a n g e to 40 yards.....shot in front of Becky who was standing on the deck and hit dead center! I was so happy I had to STOP there for now!
The roller system unlocks itself after the shot, and it is possible to unlock the system by cocking the handle (I soon found out!) and then it will either "fall back" when the muzzle is pointed up or it will "fall forward (closing and locking). I have to make sure the roller system is LOCKED and STAYS locked during cocking.
The safety sometimes goes OFF when releasing the cocking handle back into its place with the piston still cocked BUT ready to FIRE! I think this is part of the reason I have extra sensory perception about THAT white mark in the safety and making sure it comes ALL the way out to click BEFORE pushing the cocking lever forward. The bear trap is nice! I LIKE what it does. It is possible to cock ONE notch or ALL THE WAY to pop OUT the safety all the way and then load, pull back a bit to release the bear trap and push the lever back gently. Sometimes less than gently will take OFF the white safety to the RED saying FIRE!
I'll continue to get familiar with this unless this is unusual. The shooting is fine and the rifle isn't complaining. The screws are just as tight as when I got it.
Downrange, think of a .22 Short!
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OH! I forgot to add, I normally shoot other air rifles while working in another new one but this is not happening so far. I am only shooting this one! I figure all the time (all) I have to shoot HAS to involve the process of cocking and reloading as well.
This rifle is not as natural for me as the break barrel. I am thinking along the way how to make a "standard" reloading technique.
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OH! I forgot to add, I normally shoot other air rifles while working in another new one but this is not happening so far. I am only shooting this one! I figure all the time (all) I have to shoot HAS to involve the process of cocking and reloading as well.
This rifle is not as natural for me as the break barrel. I am thinking along the way how to make a "standard" reloading technique.
You’ll get used to the cocking action John, it just takes awhile. For me it’s always funny when I jump back to my TX’s and reach for a sidelever rather than the underlever :o
Sounds like you got a very nice rifle. I’m looking forward to seeing some pictures.
Steve
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Here's the shooter in the act:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/GOmTMo.jpg)
He has a really good offhand stance. Much to learn.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Here's the shooter in the act:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/GOmTMo.jpg)
He has a really good offhand stance. Much to learn.
Keep well and shoot straight!
That rifle was just dry fired by me today. I am utterly sick!
HM
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Nice‼️ Just depends now on the roll of the dice 🤭
It happens and more than likely not his last in the hobby.
Big HAMMER 🔨 HECTORS build just got tested 💀
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Dry fires are ONE of the reasons I was testing a new architecture as the Mk XIX
Under the current architecture, the UHDPE face in the piston will re-construct itself in about 24 hrs of rest under the spring's "at rest" pressure. This "resilience" is what made me adopt the material.
What the UHDPE face will NOT survive is a second, or third, dry-fire in SUCCESSIVE operations.
I hope John can chrono his gun when he starts using it again, and that will tell us what needs to be done. A 1-2 % difference in MV's can easily be attributable to chrono differences, more than that we'll need to look into the gun and see the state of the piston.
Another aspect of a dry fire is: "If the pellet did not go out of the barrel, where DID it go?"
The 54 has some nooks and crannies where fallen pellets/fragments can lodge and create havoc in the accuracy of the setup.
I've seen pellets, and pellet parts lodged in the holes to the sides of the seal causing variable lock-up, also shards in the recesses of the stock, that create an uneven sled movement, even fragments that manage to slide back into the compression section and from there into the trigger. When you have worked in hundreds of guns, you get to see the unbelievable.
As I have said, an F1 car cannot be driven by average drivers. John has been very careful not only with my gun, but also with his. I am sure this will only be a "scare".
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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It's still hitting the target as sighted; I don't know what the velocity is (you have 20 ft lbs?) with 15.89 gr but from "appearances" everything seems as is unless perhaps there is velocity loss I can't "see" with eyes and ears.
In the meantime while shooting the 54 I have been also shooting the other .20s, in HW80 and HW98. I can stack the velocity rating by impact with the 54 at the top for speed and the the HW98 at 777 fps using 13.73 gr (actual in arizona) "lowest velocity." The HW80 is behind the 54 in speed but not, of course, an R9.
It is worth saying the HW98 .20 is really still a favorite for "easy" shooting with ENOUGH power to do ALL! I realized the 54 is super speeding it but at 25 or so yards the HW98 .20 "does everything" in a lighter package.
The "zone" the HW98 sends the .20 pellet is easily used by either 15.89 or 13.73 grains to accomplish more than a .177 at the power of a "looping" .22. Against the HW80K .22 the 54 is clearly stronger--and more accurate--than the 80K.
We could possibly go "stronger" in a bigger spring but to me this kind of power is dangerous enough to treat the 54 as a "firearm" in its ability to punch through hardwood and break bricks.
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We could possibly go "stronger" in a bigger spring but to me this kind of power is dangerous enough to treat the 54 as a "firearm" in its ability to punch through hardwood and break bricks.
Yup!
Good comment that is seldom made.
Thanks!
HM
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We could possibly go "stronger" in a bigger spring but to me this kind of power is dangerous enough to treat the 54 as a "firearm" in its ability to punch through hardwood and break bricks.
Yup!
Good comment that is seldom made.
Thanks!
HM
It's working fine Hector. It SHOULD be able to take A dry fire right?
It's actually breaking up red bricks as the backstop to the metal flippers! I can't tell if there is velocity loss and again what WERE the velocity figures you got?
In the mean with the HS I have been shooting the HW80 .20 Left Hand Stock from 2012 DOM and the "crack" noise inside the wood is NOT anything associated with the spring. It seems when it cocks it has the "shoe" from the old days and THAT'S the thing with two little "bumps" along the way in full cock making the "noise".
I was relieved to discover this, and comparing the HW80 .20 to the HS .20 it is CLOSE in power, breaking up bricks at its own speed which is very fast!
The HW98 .20 is perhaps the "lowest speed" .20 BUT the accuracy is ON PAR with Hector's Special--extremely accurate--and with enough velocity to hit a lot harder than my R9 in .177. That caliber DOES NOT have the power in the mechanism according to what happens downrange with steel and brick! No way is a .177 anywhere NEAR this impact!
I also took out my .25s minus the Eliminator (the strongest .25) and discovered the HW95L in .25 is also accurate, more accurate than what I was giving credit for earlier when I first got it.
Took out the HW80 .25 and THAT breaks bricks too, is accurate, and the whole diving BACK into the "old" rifles before the HS has shown incredible IMPROVEMENT in my shooting ability off hand!
I almost thought about going back to the FWB Sport .177 to see how much more accurate I am with THAT.
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John my friend, I may have asked before if you have one or not, but if not, I'd say it's seriously time to invest in a quality chronograph to chart real numbers in real time while you're doing the shooting. Mine was one of the best investments I've made in charting performance of my rifles.
Basing what you "see and hear" in pellet impacts between different guns is one thing and there should be, but having the real FPS numbers and conversions to FPE while you're actually shooting will go a long way to helping Hector should he need to help you sort things out.
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John my friend, I may have asked before if you have one or not, but if not, I'd say it's seriously time to invest in a quality chronograph to chart real numbers in real time while you're doing the shooting. Mine was one of the best investments I've made in charting performance of my rifles.
Basing what you "see and hear" in pellet impacts between different guns is one thing and there should be, but having the real FPS numbers and conversions to FPE while you're actually shooting will go a long way to helping Hector should he need to help you sort things out.
Exactly!
I can't and won't buy more rifles my wife put the foot down on that!
So I have to get a chrono and I know it's time!
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I insist:
Cecelia is a GEM of a woman.
Congrats, my friend!
HM
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I insist:
Cecelia is a GEM of a woman.
Congrats, my friend!
HM
I'm still worrying about the dry fire awhile ago. Can I just "forget" it? If you say so I can.
Yeah she is my 3rd wife! Back in 2005 when we were mobilized together for Iraqi Freedom and Afghanistan Something(!) I'm forgetting my Operations!
The Army did a lot of things for me that I never expected......
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I'm still worrying about the dry fire awhile ago. Can I just "forget" it? If you say so I can.
Yeah she is my 3rd wife! Back in 2005 when we were mobilized together for Iraqi Freedom and Afghanistan Something(!) I'm forgetting my Operations!
The Army did a lot of things for me that I never expected......
John;
Don't ask me, ask the gun!
If she's still shooting to POA, and if you feel you have the "Smack" you had before at the target, then that's all that matters.
While I DO use a chrono every day, for professional purposes, unless I feel there is a problem I don't use it on my guns.
Chronos are like stethoscopes. You can buy one and you can use it, but unless you are trained and observant, the fears it can put into you may be a bigger problem than the "problem" you thought you detected.
A good friend once said to me: "He who lives by the chrono will die by the chrono". And I have found that to be very true.
If the gun isn't complaining in any way, just forget it.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Just wanted to add one more thing:
IF at ANY TIME, you feel the need for me to look into the gun, ship it back.
I will look into it and, if need be, repair it free of charge.
You WILL have to pay both shipping charges, but service is free for the first year.
We're all human.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Just wanted to add one more thing:
IF at ANY TIME, you feel the need for me to look into the gun, ship it back.
I will look into it and, if need be, repair it free of charge.
You WILL have to pay both shipping charges, but service is free for the first year.
We're all human.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Aha! And Aha! to the aforementioned!
That's what I did (fogotaboutit)!
I was worried that your time on a current build would restrict attention to it.
While your rifle is the top in accuracy, I have and HW80 .25 and HW95L .25 that are hand in hand just as accurate offhand!
I am attributing this to learning how to shoot the sidelever over time, which improved my off hold stance. I'm having fun out here comparing rifles just because of the .20 H.S. :D :D ;D ;D
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Great discussion on how to do things right!!!
Hector built a 20 caliber 54 for me from one of the "30" he had built early on. He did all the good things he could to make it wonderful.
I guess I am one of the "bad" shooters he refers to above. I got my new toy and within a couple weeks had managed to damage (destroy?) his custom piston. I am not sure what I did or what exactly happened internally but the piston disintegrated and had to be replaced! It was shooting GREAT UNTIL I COULDN'T GET IT TO STAY COCKED! It did slip out of my grip while I cocking it and was "jarred" on a table edge. Then the problem started. After consulting with Hector, I built a compressor, took it apart and found the damage. Hector being a real gentleman didn't call me an idiot and bungler but replaced the piston with an OEM one under warranty. A guess is that I was overcocking the rifle and not watching for the trigger to move and re-latch. I learned my lesson!!!!
I too added a cheekpiece (an elastic one with pads inside. Courtesy of Hector, I lightened the trigger spring and put a trigger adjustment screw in to shorten the trigger pull.
What did I pay for it? I don't remember for sure but it was around $2000 including the ZR mount and the Sightron scope, the monstrous case, shipping and 1000 pellets lubed Hector's way. I didn't damage myself during the unpacking phase so can't add the ER charges.....
What I do remember is the groups I shot with it next to my FWB300 at 30yds. Six 10 shot groups Group size for both averaged about .45" or less inches at 30yds with the difference between the two rifles being 0.01". The 54 accounted for only three chipmunks that fall and was put away for other pursuits for the winter. A couple weeks ago, I got it out for spring cleaning of chipmunks. At the range at 50' the very first pellet was exactly dead center in the 10m practice target. 60 more were no more than a 1/4" from the center. With this practice target each shot goes into its own bullseye so you can see if it is sloppy (or I am.) I have a .177 stock 54 that shoots well but one can easily see the difference between them.
I am contemplating asking Hector to tune my .177 and set up a .22 from the new version of the 54 when it comes out.
We will see!
FWBsport - you will have a lot of fun. Cheers!
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Dave,
The "gun" is sitting to my left leaning against a wall where the Presidents of the United States of America are photographed!
The leather cheek piece works great and that was added by him.
The scope is sensational to me, and if I could get more of those I will.
There's a notch at the last trigger pull in the D54 matching what was on Hector's D54 .20, very very lite "spot" where that trigger IS going to go with just another tweak. Getting to THAT trigger position is tricky, but once there I'm "in the zone" as Hector puts it.
Right now the dry fire to me is a significant but not unacceptable "battle scar" and whatever it's doing now is too close to what it was before--I'd have had to have a chrono from the start.
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Still not too late for one and since you mentioned it again, Dvor just happens to have the Pro Chrono Digital with built in blue tooth on sale for $105. Have one myself but the blue tooth part back then was a $65 add on I paid the extra for. Sign up is free and that's not a bad deal.
https://www.dvor.com/competition-electronics-prochrono-dlx-with-bluetooth.html?promotion=competition-electronics-chronographs-27-2020-04-07 (https://www.dvor.com/competition-electronics-prochrono-dlx-with-bluetooth.html?promotion=competition-electronics-chronographs-27-2020-04-07)
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John, if ur rifle is still shooting accurate? and nothing sounds a miss? I would not worry about a once dry fired gun! I have had it happen several times on the same side lever gun and others with no Ill effects! Just try to make sure the pellet is in the hole before u close it!!! I know well all get caught up in the moment when shooting and sometimes we think were on our game! spit happens! don't worry be happy!!!! 8)
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John: "Gun" ??? I know the difference between a rifle and a gun for military types but I have fun with the rifle too.
Hector: where did you get that cheekpiece? I find the ZR mount a bit high even with the cheekpiece that I installed. I am contemplating adding high density foam covered with soft goatskin over the existing one. My wife has some in her sewing room. She found a junk store with tanned goatskins $2 and being a good hoarder bought all they had! I have access to about 20 skins she will share!
My 54s both have lighter trigger springs that Hector provided that put trigger pulls around 12oz - similar to the FWB trigger pull. I need to spend more time on the trigger as they still seem a bit wobbly at times. Need to dig up the trigger adjustment instructions for the T06!
Cheers!
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https://fiddlebackoutpost.com/collections/rlo?brassstacker&gclid=CjwKCAjw7LX0BRBiEiwA__gNw12iDY1AiL-N8FQKQE-qBFf4PqNDuqdqCLufcpGyN35QV3FqBwJ0WBoCjG0QAvD_BwE
These are also nice and non-marring:
https://godagrip.com/cheek-pads-2/
I use them myself, the God a Grip.
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What did I shoot today? Just the .20 H.S. at 25 yards. No it is still on target! Just as "fast" as it was and there even seems to be some "settling in" that has "accurized" it. A little change where there are less misses.
The ZR mounts are high on any rifle I have like the HW80s and the HW98 .20. It means finding the cheek piece with something and mine does have a foam packing piece atop to "push up" the comb.
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John: "Gun" ??? I know the difference between a rifle and a gun for military types but I have fun with the rifle too.
Hector: where did you get that cheekpiece? I find the ZR mount a bit high even with the cheekpiece that I installed. I am contemplating adding high density foam covered with soft goatskin over the existing one. My wife has some in her sewing room. She found a junk store with tanned goatskins $2 and being a good hoarder bought all they had! I have access to about 20 skins she will share!
My 54s both have lighter trigger springs that Hector provided that put trigger pulls around 12oz - similar to the FWB trigger pull. I need to spend more time on the trigger as they still seem a bit wobbly at times. Need to dig up the trigger adjustment instructions for the T06!
Cheers!
Dave
I buy them by the dozen, LOL!
Good leather, hand made. NO two exactly alike, but all very well made. They are making them for me also in left hand. I use them a LOT. Not all my builds but almost 80%. They smell nice also, as it is an oil-cured leather (for weather proof purposes). Tanins cured leather smell like "tobacco" and that is what I used for my prototype.
Drop me a line if you want one, I am currently out of stock, but will order a dozen in the next few days. I can add one for you.
If you want to use the goatskins you have, then drop me a line, there is a technique to getting a custom fit one:
(https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/uploads/2/3/8/4/23849268/d54rightview_orig.jpg)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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A goat skin cheek piece with horns would look radical, Mr. Medina ;D
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A goat skin cheek piece with horns would look radical, Mr. Medina ;D
Hmmmmm, perhaps, but some in the WFTF leadership might think that the horns offer "added support" and would ban it, ROFL!
;-)
Thanks for the laugh I needed it.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Hector:
Drop me a line if you want one, I am currently out of stock, but will order a dozen in the next few days. I can add one for you.
Get me two since both my 54s have the same stock, mounts, scope size configuration.
Right-handed please. I actually am left-handed but must shoot everything right-handed as I am now fully blind in my left eye. (Back when I could see, I shot both ways and kept score for which was better. (Left was - particularly with shotgun...except for safety manipulation while hunting.)
Regarding the goatskin one, I am not adept enough to make "good" ones. I would butcher it up.
Actually HOOVES would be a good add to the bottom for a solid rear rest??????
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Ha ha! Dave, there's truth to this!
When that leather touches my face I know I am now entering the PROFESSIONAL status!
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My friends, I don't want to be a "party popper", but after hooves and horns, I think we'd better stop. ROFL!
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Recently I ran into a problem with the rifle and started talking to Hector about sending it to him.
I knew something was "off" with the rifle and had figured I was losing velocity and hitting far right.
Since I was about to send away my prize air rifle and be without it for at least TIME I decided to change the targets from the steel discs to the various knots in the wood fence nearby the target trap of discs.
I printed 2" to the right without any drop, which was about where the rifle may have been shooting close to in the first place since I do make minor wind changes at 25 yards here in IL. I went down to the backstop (flagstone and red brick) and soon realized I was having ricochet to the lower right fooling me into thinking it was the impact. So it's back on target and doing what it's always been doing, destroying the backstop and the bricks AND THE STEEL braces holding the discs! My pellet trap is permanently bent up out of shape to perform the way it did out of the box.
I told this to Hector last night, and he mentioned having paper behind the targets to help that error!
Today it seems to be shooting a bit faster and smoother compared to when I first got it. I figure the shooting is making the action become smoother still.
I know how to cock it while the butt is in my armpit! That's the way to cock it the fastest and be ready to raise the sights to the target.
:D ;D
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John let me ask u something, how do you go about ur shooting routine? do you go outside to shoot? do you shoot from inside the house to the outside? What do you do??????? 8)
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John,
I am curious, which arm pit do you use, right or left ?
I have a D48 and was just trying to cock using either arm pit.
I place butt of the stock on my upper part of my leg to cock.
I include your shooting pic from Hector's post.
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The first .177 you sell?? Go buy that chrony I suggested and Hector insisted...lolol. 2 shots would settled your velocity concerns...just sayin...lol
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With all those guns and no chrony? The chrony is your best tool for many reasons.
A chrony will tell many stories and don't worry about shooting your chrony. Even some of the best are members of I shoot my chrony club.
I'd suggest you built a duct seal trap or some other filler and use some type paper for poi Indicating.
Doping your scope will eliminate the scope changes.
Shooting paper vs game or objects are 2 different techniques. Jmo
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A chronograph can be had for less than $100 that will work admirably. Chrony is the brand-name. They have several inexpensive versions. I have one that has performed faithfully for several years. The only "gotcha" with them is that they misbehave if you are working under standard fluorescent lights. The 60cycle flicker is sometimes read as pellets passing by. Outdoors not a problem. They sell an attachment set of led lights that solves that problem.
There are numerous others that work great too. I don't recall the vendor name but one is set "upside down" with the pellets passing below the electronics kit with a white background below. It also isn't terribly expensive.
As for a backstop, I use the 22 LR backstop sold earlier by Outers and now by others. Champion comes to mind but I'm not sure. It has survived thousands of pellets and not just a few 22LR. And a couple 38 or 9mm!!! (Not a good idea to shoot those inside the basement though - really upset my wife and the dog!!!
I will add a url to both items in a couple minutes.
Chrony:
http://www.shootingchrony.com (http://www.shootingchrony.com)
Champion Bullet Trap:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwiOy-Ozmf3oAhWCWM0KHSJKBusQFjAAegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FChampion-Traps-Targets-Bullet-Rimfire%2Fdp%2FB082BHZKK2&usg=AOvVaw3qonK0VxPTaM4z4q5Jp-23 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwiOy-Ozmf3oAhWCWM0KHSJKBusQFjAAegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FChampion-Traps-Targets-Bullet-Rimfire%2Fdp%2FB082BHZKK2&usg=AOvVaw3qonK0VxPTaM4z4q5Jp-23)
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For a number of reasons, but mainly this one (false readings of target impacts) is why I developed the Quadrant Spinner.
Sadly, someone decided to make it cheaply and AoA decided to distribute it and they ruined the concept.
I still have my set, and it works with any power level gun at any distance, they were expensive when properly made, but they will outlast shooter and guns.
I was very happy to hear that John's gun is up to snuff. It was a big relief, LOL!
Anyway, if anyone is interested in the Champion pellet trap, buy it from Pyramyd:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/champion-heavy-duty-metal-trap?a=1026 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/champion-heavy-duty-metal-trap?a=1026)
There is a $100 savings in there.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Hector-Medina:
Thanks, I knew I had seen it cheaper that the manufacturer's full list price. My point was that this is the best one I have ever seen for a portable and readily useable one. Mine sits in the corner of my workshop with a target on it for ready use when I am tinkering on the air rifles.
Powder guns are NEVER used in the basement anymore. My bottom still remembers the attitude and intelligence adjustment my wife gave be after the few times.... I thought she wasn't home!!!!
My daughter uses one of the chronographs that attach directly to the barrel of the gun for her testing. I looked into it but decided not to go that way as I frequently shoot centerfire rifle and pistol and thought it might not do well on one of those. A friend told me about a Doppler radar chronograph that costs about $600 that he got. I haven't investigated it yet but feel that I am too old and blind to shoot very long range rifle where it might be useful. Might be fun to play with though!!!!!
Cheers
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You're welcome, my friend!
The Amazon price is WAY ABOVE the MSRP. Why? probably because they can get away with it (and also because probably, they can/want not how to spell g-o-u-g-i-n-g). People get so used to buying everything from one place that they just click. And spend too much money from their relief checks on things that were never intended for those funds. Anyway, human nature is even more complicated than airguns, so I will stick to airguns.
I have FOUR traps. Two of these Champion ones, One an Do-All Outdoors (screwed version) and another the simple, small, Do All pellet trap that was reinforced for higher powers:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/recipe-for-a-good-pellet-trap (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/recipe-for-a-good-pellet-trap)
The large Do-All is a disgrace, pellet dust percolates through the rear and it has been consigned to the useless stuff. The smaller performs admirably once strengthened where it counts as relayed in the blog entry. That's the one that sits at the rear of my Chrono station.
The two that truly help are the two welded ones by Champion.
I also got 4 more of them for the Indoors 10 M Match shoots we did at IWLA in Damascus until we were closed down by CV19, we use up to 20 ft-lbs at 10 meters (most shooters are also FT shooters, so we use the same gun for both shoots) and so the punishment these traps take is quite astonishing.
Anyway, some day I will find someone to make properly the quadrant spinners and we can all have a device that helps you get zeroed at the same time that it will last indefinitely and prevent you from the need to change the paper, or paint the plate.
;-)
On the Chrono side, the best bang for your buck is the Pro-Chrono DLX set with built in blue-tooth connectivity and separate IR screens. "All in" you will be paying about $163 (Graf & Sons) but you have e set that you will use it a LOT just because it is easy to use and reliable.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
PS.- a bit off topic: I recently replaced a stolen Remington Rolling Block with a DP 45-70 and I am going to start playing with it at subsonic velocities with pellet shaped projectiles ;-)
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Aha! Chrony will come.
Thing is the "false" impacts were actually reflected lead back toward me into the ground because the flagstone is angled down towards the shooter. Pieces of lead were erupting grass in front and to the right of the flagstone, which accounted for the apparent loss of power (shooting low and right because the flagstone is angled not only down but to reflect RIGHT!).
So the secondary impacts going low and right were AFTER the pellet hit the flagstone. The flagstone is behind the top steel disc that releases the traps (four steel discs) when it is hit, so even when I was hitting the reflections of lead went similarly to the same place after slamming the top disc.
To answer the mysterious questions about where I shoot, inside or outside, I do both. Inside the doorway (to the grassed porch in the photo I am standing on) to the targets is 25 yards. Outside I back off to another 5 or 15 yards toward the opposite corner where the traps are.
In the photo the traps are to the left behind me in the area of the large green box holding city equipment for something. The traps are to the left of the box against the fenceline. From the porch doors to those traps is 25 yards. In the photo I am actually standing and pointing where I can't shoot and don't, mostly because if a trap is set over on that extreme corner it is closer to the porch instead of further, and in bad weather I can't open the porch door (swing it back open--only one door opens inward) and shoot that way. No clearance inside the house from the closed (locked) door.
I cock the rifle against my right side anywhere from armpit to waist. I have to be careful of bruising if that buttstock is in the wrong area anywere along that vertical.
I have tightened the leather glove on the stock and stayed with 15.89gr .20s. The scope continues to amaze me in quality and I want to know more about it, Hector!
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The reason why I asked this question, I hope u understand going from indoors to out doors will change ur POI, unless u have a consistent temp and humidity, wind {etc} I always keep a few rifles out in my barn to keep them some what acclimated to the outside temps, even at that it only takes a few degrees in temp change to change ur POI! especially with a wood stock ;)
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That is correct and the sledge guns esp. Appliesto.the FWB300/S and the Giss system guns.💀
And yes the PCP guns.and PB's are subject to temp changes. Im
Acclamation is needed.👀
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Wow, there's so much information in this thread... In one of the earlier posts Hector made this remark:
"THEN the process of regulating the barrel can take place"
Googling this turns up information about regulating double barrels and when I add any reference to "air gun" results become about air pressure regulation...
Can you describe what this process is?
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Theirs to much to explain! so I hope all who know will give a piece to this explanation! I'm going to start off with air density, from hot to cold, the same principles apply to power burners, if you take a temp stable power to use in ur 308win for example, in 90derg temps it will generally shoot the velocity pre givin charge weight of power with a certain bullet weight, now take the same combination and drop the temp to say 0 degrees you will probably lose a 100fps in that temp, air gun being a bit more sensitive to temp changes + with using a wood stock will not only change ur velocity 60 to 100fps but also ur POI due to the shift of the wood twisting, wood is still a live organism even after it is processed and dried, it will twist and turn along with temp changes, or expand and contract just like the hardwood floors in a house, if you don't keep it in a stable environment or a consistent humidity it will move around, that's why u see cracks or buckling in hard wood floors from warm to cold conditions same thing happens to a wood stock on a rifle! :o
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Wow, there's so much information in this thread... In one of the earlier posts Hector made this remark:
"THEN the process of regulating the barrel can take place"
Googling this turns up information about regulating double barrels and when I add any reference to "air gun" results become about air pressure regulation...
Can you describe what this process is?
Do a search on Hector's posts. He has expalined this many times before. He is very meticulous about his procedures. ;)
-Y
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Regarding regulation of the barrel. It can be as crude as bending the barrel a bit to put the point of impact to the center of the optically centered crosshairs. I haven't read Hector's notes but know he did regulate my 20 cal 54 to a treat!!!
Hector:
If you look at the Amazon site, the seller listed at $189 was the MANUFACTURER. Since I was only looking for the name, I didn't do my purchasing agent routine!!!
I found a long review of the new doppler radar chronograph. There are two things that make me skeptical about it for air rifles in particular. The review was several years old so some of the criticisms may have been addressed. There was reference to an error in standard deviation calculation method and of the difficulty to get it perfectly aligned with the bullet flight path. The review did direct comparisons with two optical chronographs and found accuracy comparable but naturally each gave a slightly different muzzle velocity and SD.
First, the measurement sequence triggered one of two ways. First by the sound of the weapon being fired and second by the bullet entering the doppler radar beam on the way to the target. They make special microphones for air rifles but according to the review they were not too effective at the time of review. The measurement sequence can also be triggered by a nearby shooter's shot.
Second; the measurement is based on the radar waves bouncing off the back end of the bullet! Best results are got with FLAT based bullets. The reviewer tried a musket with a round ball and found that the ball was stealthy - radar return was minimal. Also boat tail bullets looked 'smaller' and harder to see.
Small diameter projectiles (like pellets) are also harder to see. I would speculate that the shape of pellets with the open back end could also be problematic.
My Chrony Master does everything I want it to do so will stick with it.
FWBsport: Perhaps you ought stand your target spinners on a post??? Richochets off the ground are uncontrollable and can go anywhere. I was once hit by a richochet 22 LR bullet that left the gun went through the target and returned to hit me in the thigh from 50yds!!!! I still can find the scar 30years later. It was interesting because I was zeroing a Win 52C with a Fecker scope at the time and could see the bullets going into the target through the scope (low recoil, bright Oklahoma sunshine and much better vision than now!). I actually saw the bullet go through the paper hit something in the backstop and come back through the target coming toward me!! I speculate that it hit a wad of lead from the several shot group that I had already shot at the same aim point.
When you get one:
Set your chronograph next to your shooting bench put a target bullseye about 10yds out and sight on it like a regular shot. That will keep the pellet away from you and the equipment while making the pellet travel through the screens in exactly the same position each time with improved results... The Chrony uses 1/4" steel rods, sometimes, I use 1/4" dowel rods instead, to show you the zone to shoot into and to hold the LED lights. I put a couple strips of blue painter's tape across the V, one about 4" above the electronics box and the second about 4" higher. My bullets or pellets are shot between those strips of tape to maintain a consistent height from the sensors. I haven't shot anything but the target yet!!!
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I keep using a Sharpie to re-mark the rods on my Pro Chrono, but that painters tape is a very good idea. Nice tip, sir!!!
Now we just need to get John to finally buy one...lol. With that list of HW rifles and in all the calibers he has, his real time chrony numbers considering how many shots he has through them since new really could/would be a real asset to someone considering one and what they could reasonably expect down the road.
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I keep using a Sharpie to re-mark the rods on my Pro Chrono, but that painters tape is a very good idea. Nice tip, sir!!!
Now we just need to get John to finally buy one...lol. With that list of HW rifles and in all the calibers he has, his real time chrony numbers considering how many shots he has through them since new really could/would be a real asset to someone considering one and what they could reasonably expect down the road.
It's going to be part of my air rifle expenditures here on out because NO MORE AIR RIFLES for me! Declared by Cecelia! The other things I need to collect brand new are Diana ZR mounts to put on my HW57 and HW80K.
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Note that I only have 3 air rifles (and about 30 powder guns) because I have filled all the slots in my cabinets and don't care to shoot any of the other air rifles that require the artillery or limey hold (whatever). They cover all my needs/wants/desires there. Well maybe a .22 someday!!!
The very first air rifle of quality that I shot was a Daisy imported FWB 300 in the very late 1960s. I didn't get another one until I got my FWB300SU about 18 years ago. Later I bought a used 54 and most recently the Hector Special.
My main shooting these days is powder pistol at an indoor range.
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I also recently claimed a small victory over air gun addiction. No credit to me but due lack of funding because of Covid19 everything not used had to go . Going forward, sure would to end with a trifecta of .177,20, and a .22 just because.
Mitch
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ssbn617: sorry to hear about your loss. I hope things recover and allow you to rejoin the ranks of the air gun addicts.
Good luck and don't let the covid bug bite!!!
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Never left, but could not carry the inventory. Nothing changed, just leaner.
Mitch
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UUuuuffff!
Take a day off and there is a deluge in posts, LOL!
Just kidding, happy for the opportunity to be of service.
I'll try to address the points, not so much the posts.
False feedback by the target.- This is why, 20 years ago I designed the Quadrant Spinner:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/56/OCEXyQ.png)
As you can see, whether you hit the bullseye, or you hit the side-leaves, you get immediate feedback that is USEFUL information.
Problem is that to make them PROPERLY, you need to have precision work. Current offerings are so loosely made that, small caliber pellets can "slip through the cracks" and give you NO feedback at all. Which is, to be honest, quite annoying. BUT, that is what happens when you cheapen a product.
Perhaps I should get another run made? What say ye?
Temperature and performance.-.- Piston airguns work at such high temperatures and pressures, that once you take two shots, you can rely on the POI to stay there. IF you have a gun that is used to take CB (Cold Bore) shots, then that gun needs to be sighted in for THAT.
Tests have demonstrated that it takes a standard size airgun (D34/HW95) between 40 and 60 minutes to go back to the CB POI.
Larger airguns take longer, smaller airguns take less. Whatever you decide to do, just be consistent. You owe it to the animal you are shooting at, even if it is a pest.
"Then the process of regulation can take place".- This refers to making the barrel shoot to the POA that is deemed "best" for the system and purpose in context when the scope in its proper mounts is at its optically neutral axis. For example: An FT gun will need a large scope that is optically centered when the scope and trajectory align to zero at around 40-45 yards. In this way, you can have the same amount of deviation when the scope is clicked to 10 yards, or to 65. The exception would be the non-clicker, then you need to regulate the barrel to align with the optical center of the scope at the chosen zero distance, because you will NOT be moving the turrets, except for SMALL zero changes caused by altitude, temperature and humidity.
A Hunting gun, should have the optical center aligned to the POI at around 35 yards, for one because the best fixed parallax scopes for hunting have the parallax set to that distance, and because usually, people do not click for hunting.
Regulation and barrel bending may or may not be the same. IN DOUBLE guns, regulation means soft-soldering the two barrels and then adding or substracting wedges to make them shoot to the same POA at around 30-50 yards (depending on cartridge and customer) when shoot IN QUICK SUCCESSION. Because barrels bend and then return to shape in about 10 seconds, this is needed to ensure that you are going to hit the Buffalo that is charging you in the right spot. Once this is achieved, then the ribs are soldered woth TIX, or other hard solder and the setting is permanent, BUT that also means that that double gun should use only the LOAD with which it was regulated.
In airguns, you can choose to bend the barrel (meaning that the bend is somewhere in the middle section of the barrel), or regulate the barrel, where it means that the barrel is "bent" AT the BREECHBLOCK, the difference is that there are more "inches of travel" after the bend for the pellet to achieve the best possible alignment.
For 10 meters, only the last 2.5 cms/1" are important:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2129/oJQmc2.jpg)
for 55 yards and longer, it is important to give the pellet as much settling as possible.
Price of the pellet trap.- Yes I did notice that, and it has been a trend with the CV-19 pandemic that most online stores are going to the MSRP. ¿Is this price gouging? dunno, it's just something that I have observed even in previously serious companies like Optics Planet. Sad, but true.
LabRadar.- Has been undergoing improvements over the years but they are limited by the laws that regulate civilian use of radar waves. In the case of hollow-skirted pellets, the limit is about 30-40 yards in 0.177" and about 50-60 yards in 0.22" the ONLY surface that actually has a radar signature is the FLAT/HEMISPHERICAL bottom of the skirt. So, they are almost stealth designed. Trigger Microphones are better and they can be substituted by supercardioid mikes if it is really necessary. Piezo mikes would be best. At some point in time I discussed the inclusion of this in an airgun package with them, but conversations went no-where after IWA 2020 was cancelled. Still, it COULD be an interesting device if it had better small-caliber detection capability.
Shooting the Chrono.- The ONLY time that I have shot a chrono was when testing a Talon. I am used to a 2.5" LOS, but 4" was completely unexpected, ROFL! The FUNNY Part? that the chrono still worked!.
Got it repaired and is now a prized possession being one of the first ever workable civilian chronos. It is the reason why I am loyal to the Pro-Chrono people, even if Caldwell makes really good instruments, the service and the product support by Pro-Chrono is outstanding.
John's H.S. Scope AND base.- That scope started life as a Traditions Muzzle loader scope. But it was re-parallaxed to 35 yards by me. The base was a std DIANA ZR Mount Gen II (only one tube diameter), that can make the scope fir LOWER than the current Gen III that is dual (1"/ 30 mm's)
Traditions tell me that the 1145 scope is now discotinued and they are offering two different choices: the 1162 that is a 3-9X40 with the same reticle but with illumination. And the 1143 that is a 3-9X version of the 1145 that was 3.5-10X
DIANA has offered some support and I am thinking of running a special package of the scopes plus the Accurized ZR mounts for $200 each set. If there is interest, we can bring in the 1" ring mounts directly from DIANA, and purchase the scopes directly from Traditions. But you need to let me know as if the lot is not 10 sets or more, it will be more expensive (shipping from Germany).
Thinning the herd.- I've started Mitch's airgun, and I do believe that the old adage "Beware the man with one gun" is absolutely TRUE. When I talk with friends and customers, a LOT of times difficulties arise from owning TOO MANY airguns. Airguns are JEALOUS Mistresses/Masters, if you even oggle another airgun you will get a slap on the face in the form of a "wild flyer", ROFL!
Hope CV-19 is treating you all with respect and viceversa.
Keep well and shoot straight, precisely to stay SANE and HEALTHY !
;-)
HM
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Hello Hector kind Sir.
If you are compiling a list of interested parties for the Original quadrant target, please put me on that list. I would like one. Regards Ron
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Thanks for the scope information, Hector!
There's another way to look at having more than one gun, I will always have one gun with many in reserve...... ;D
I have experienced these jealous mistresses for a few years by now, say 20 or 25 (Once 1982 came around I started visiting Beeman's in San Rafael), and know it's easier to shave down to the basics.
Now, one rifle is not ever going to fill the entire need. For anyone. I'll tell you why. I can't always pull out the .20 H.S. D4 simply because cocking it is too long the first and second time. If I hunt I need a carrying and walking around "light rifle" with enough power. That's the HW95L. That gets fired more than any other rifle because of its ability to be the "jack of all trades" worthy of shooting for hunting and silhouette (informal) or target shooting. But this morning I started shooting my HW80 .25 and the accuracy at 25 yards is no different than the HW80 .20!
So questions about which "one rifle" to hotrod or use most of the time is really a question of which two rifles.
Caliber is a divider of crowds but not of hunters, and hunters do need to practice even if it is a varmint. So the "hunting" rifle has to be good mechanically, with enough power and not too much power. Ergo the .25 Caliber for me. I would say get anything accurate (not necessarily fast) in .25 caliber in the springer to really learn and see what happens downrange to targets, whether reactive or paper.
I DID notice these Diana mounts (second generation) were lower than what is on my HW80 .25 and HW80 .20. I was going to ask about that as well!
But, after this amount of time I see my "arsenal" coming down to some rifles I can't let go for now! But all the others I don't need.
.177 HW57
.20 HW98
.20 D54
.25 HW95L
.25 HW80
.25 TB Eliminator
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Yeah, this a.m. I figured the D54 .20 could be the ONE rifle only.
Twenty caliber, fast, accurate, a bit time consuming to reload and fire but the first shot should be the one.
I take "first shots" out a "cold" barrel and the rifle is dead on. I continue shooting and the rifle is dead on.
Hector, I changed my mind to look at the D54 as an "only" rifle to be a "beware the man with one gun".
;D
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UUuuuffff!
Take a day off and there is a deluge in posts, LOL!
Just kidding, happy for the opportunity to be of service.
I'll try to address the points, not so much the posts.
False feedback by the target.- This is why, 20 years ago I designed the Quadrant Spinner:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/56/OCEXyQ.png)
As you can see, whether you hit the bullseye, or you hit the side-leaves, you get immediate feedback that is USEFUL information.
Problem is that to make them PROPERLY, you need to have precision work. Current offerings are so loosely made that, small caliber pellets can "slip through the cracks" and give you NO feedback at all. Which is, to be honest, quite annoying. BUT, that is what happens when you cheapen a product.
Perhaps I should get another run made? What say ye?
.......
HM
I would get in on a target run. I find it difficult to set-up paper targets and dislike having to find hole while shooting. Instant feedback on shot placement, a nice smacking sound, and durable construction materials make me happy.
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This is the confusing part of offhand shooting! I get lazy and refuse to check the steel trap, continue shooting hearing "clinks" of hits but no movement in the reactive target (well, a little movement). So I hiked up to the traps and saw they had been thrust back (the entire trap) against the flagstone or bricks.
Once in awhile I see the .20 pellet on its way to the traps through the scope, or I see the flattened pellet bounce back from steel into the ground below as if they had just been dropped from the face of the steel ring. Weird!
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As long as YOU have fun, it's alllllllll-right!
;-)
HM
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Cecelia is going to frame the certificate like she has already done for my 1964 S&W .38 Chief's Special from Roy Jinks.
Thanks Hector, next time you're here you'll see it! :o ;D
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;D
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM