GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Damo666 on December 04, 2019, 07:38:34 AM
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On the range, I've zeroed my scope in at 20 yards - but as the targets are paper or metal spinners, I've not actually checked penetration.
My rifle chronies at 9.25 ft/ib for the first few shots, then drops to 8.75ft/ib for most, then around 8.25ft/ib for the remainder of shots until the Co2 cart is empty.
Can anyone please give me a ballpark range for clean kill on Birds, Squirrels, Rat's, etc'?
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On the range, I've zeroed my scope in at 20 yards - but as the targets are paper or metal spinners, I've not actually checked penetration.
My rifle chronies at 9.25 ft/ib for the first few shots, then drops to 8.75ft/ib for most, then around 8.25ft/ib for the remainder of shots until the Co2 cart is empty.
Can anyone please give me a ballpark range for clean kill on Birds, Squirrels, Rat's, etc'?
At that range, you should have enough fpe at POI for a clean kill on the small game you listed, but shot placement will be crucial.
I shoot with a MV of 730fps/~12 fpe (with .177) and as long as my shot placement is good... DRT (Dead Right There). That goes for from 10 meters out to ~50 yards. ;)
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Your rifle is a taste hotter than a R7/HW30... so it's capable to 30 - 35 yards... If you're up to it.
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Based upon what I've gleaned from others here, I guess-timate that the pellet loses 25% of its fpe every 10ish yards. Some here believe that it takes 6fpe to kill a squirrel; others, 4.5. Like Kerry just mentioned, it's the shot placement that matters most. So, I accept 4.5 fpe in a brain shot as a DRT for squirrels. With your gun, 20 yards might be possible; maybe not.
Again, others here can provide much better factual info: I'm just trying to pass along what I believe to be true based upon my hours of reading on the forum. OTOH, I killed a squirrel 25 yards away with my CO2 Hammerli 850, which the chrony showed was shooting at 627-675 FPS. Assuming the kill shot left the barrel at 650 FPS, that 8.64 grain H&N FTT would have it the squirrel in the brain at less than half the 8.11 fpe it started with. That was 25 yards. So, again, shot placement and real numbers can make a difference.
trying to be helpful,
Archie
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Based upon what I've gleaned from others here, I guess-timate that the pellet loses 25% of its fpe every 10ish yards. Some here believe that it takes 6fpe to kill a squirrel; others, 4.5. Like Kerry just mentioned, it's the shot placement that matters most. So, I accept 4.5 fpe in a brain shot as a DRT for squirrels. With your gun, 20 yards might be possible; maybe not.
Again, others here can provide much better factual info: I'm just trying to pass along what I believe to be true based upon my hours of reading on the forum. OTOH, I killed a squirrel 25 yards away with my CO2 Hammerli 850, which the chrony showed was shooting at 627-675 FPS. Assuming the kill shot left the barrel at 650 FPS, that 8.64 grain H&N FTT would have it the squirrel in the brain at less than half the 8.11 fpe it started with. That was 25 yards. So, again, shot placement and real numbers can make a difference.
trying to be helpful,
Archie
It's just like with Real Estate...
Location, location, location! ;)
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That depends on the actual pellets used, and on their accuracy out of your rifle.
If you can make brain shots, then a range out to whatever distance drops the pellet energy to 4 ft.lb should work on all those critters you mentioned. The snag is that the brain is a very small target, and that is likely to limit your range.
For body shots on sparrows and rats, 4 ft.lb should also be enough. But for body shots on squirrel, you are going to need a bit more than that. Probably should not shoot a large squirrel past 10 yards unless you hit its brain.
If you manage to brain a squirrel, you could sacrifice its body to science, and shoot it through the chest to see what penetration you get at 20 yards. Penetration all the way to the underside of the skin on the far side will be very effective and should be your goal. Even so, squirrels are very tough and are likely to run off, despite taking a shot that would be fatal within another 20 seconds. That said, puncturing one lung will kill a squirrel, but it will take a lot longer than puncturing both. If the heart is involved that would be good, but it is a small target...
For larger birds such as pigeon, head shots don't take more than for sparrows. However; body shots take a lot more energy; especially if you do not avoid the very heavy sternum; or the flight feathers. The junction between neck and shoulders is the better aim point, if the head cannot be hit for some reason.
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I'm still a beginner on the shooting range, with yesterday being my 2nd visit - but I'm proficient at 1/2 inch groups at 15 > 20 yards with the odd one at 3/4 inch.
I'll do some more practicing, then use this upto around 25 yards to be on the safe side.
Appreciated for the input as always blokes.
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That depends on the actual pellets used, and on their accuracy out of your rifle.
If you can make brain shots, then a range out to whatever distance drops the pellet energy to 4 ft.lb should work on all those critters you mentioned. The snag is that the brain is a very small target, and that is likely to limit your range.
For body shots on sparrows and rats, 4 ft.lb should also be enough. But for body shots on squirrel, you are going to need a bit more than that. Probably should not shoot a large squirrel past 10 yards unless you hit its brain.
If you manage to brain a squirrel, you could sacrifice its body to science, and shoot it through the chest to see what penetration you get at 20 yards. Penetration all the way to the underside of the skin on the far side will be very effective and should be your goal. Even so, squirrels are very tough and are likely to run off, despite taking a shot that would be fatal within another 20 seconds. That said, puncturing one lung will kill a squirrel, but it will take a lot longer than puncturing both. If the heart is involved that would be good, but it is a small target...
For larger birds such as pigeon, head shots don't take more than for sparrows. However; body shots take a lot more energy; especially if you do not avoid the very heavy sternum; or the flight feathers. The junction between neck and shoulders is the better aim point, if the head cannot be hit for some reason.
Location, location, location! LOL!
It is possible to kill ANYTHING efficiently with precise shot placement and less fpe than most people think.
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That depends on the actual pellets used, and on their accuracy out of your rifle.
If you can make brain shots, then a range out to whatever distance drops the pellet energy to 4 ft.lb should work on all those critters you mentioned. The snag is that the brain is a very small target, and that is likely to limit your range.
For body shots on sparrows and rats, 4 ft.lb should also be enough. But for body shots on squirrel, you are going to need a bit more than that. Probably should not shoot a large squirrel past 10 yards unless you hit its brain.
If you manage to brain a squirrel, you could sacrifice its body to science, and shoot it through the chest to see what penetration you get at 20 yards. Penetration all the way to the underside of the skin on the far side will be very effective and should be your goal. Even so, squirrels are very tough and are likely to run off, despite taking a shot that would be fatal within another 20 seconds. That said, puncturing one lung will kill a squirrel, but it will take a lot longer than puncturing both. If the heart is involved that would be good, but it is a small target...
For larger birds such as pigeon, head shots don't take more than for sparrows. However; body shots take a lot more energy; especially if you do not avoid the very heavy sternum; or the flight feathers. The junction between neck and shoulders is the better aim point, if the head cannot be hit for some reason.
Everything is point-on here.
I use everything from my 10 FPE CZ-634 springer on up to my hot-running MRodAir Varmint on squirrel, but almost exclusively go for headshots. This includes my favorite 2 "squirrel guns", my PP700 pistol (now turned back to 12 FPE) and my 2400KT CO2 rifle.
HOSPs don't take much energy at all to kill- 4 FPE to the head with a wadcutter. Avoid the domes and pointed pellets. Wadcutters are ideal for these tiny birds unless you're going out past 20 yards. Domes and Polymag-style are fine for body/neck/headshots on birds, but placement is crucial, though since a sparrow is so small, hit cnter-mass with almost anything and they fold like paper. Pigeons... well, just, errr, subscriber and watch some of Ted's videos :)
I've taken a few thousand pigeons (well north of 6) during a relatively short time I was employed doing avian abatement in the SF Bay Area. An R-7 springer (equivalent to the HW-30) and a Blue Streak pumper (both guns were .20) netted most of those, but I also used a Tru-Mark one-piece non-folding wrist-rocket with Tap-Cons at relatively short ranges (15 yards or less on average). A Tap-Con isn't fast but the sheer mass imparted a lot of energy and a pigeon nailed in the body or neck by one died instantly. A pellet hitting the keel or breastbone has to go through some serious muscle so I'll only attempt pigeon body shots either from directly behind or using one of my more powerful airguns- and then using domes, not wadcutters. Knowing your quarry is absolutely vital.
Rats and squirrels are a different topic. Rats are fairly fragile but incredibly smart. Shoot the larger ones in the head. They've lived the longest, have learned the most, etc. Seriously, pass on the smaller ones because they're younger and hav learned less. Wait until the old ones are all dead, then focus on the younger. 4 FPE to the skull kills a rat dead as can be. Your CO2 gun should be good to 25 or 30 yards provided you have pellets you can stack hole in hole repeatedly. My 2400KT can do that with a number of different wadcutters at even 30 yards, and really deserves a better scope than what I have, but most of my shots are 19 yards (distance from my deck to my feeders).
Squirrels...
Well, you see my forum name. I pass on many shots as my focus is almost always headshots. Ear canal, just aft of the zygomatic arch (cheekbone), or into the eye socket if they face me. My shots are almost always taken at a downward angle since my deck sits higher than the feeders , so those eye socket shots cause brain-death instantly.
As an aside, my PP700 pistol is incredibly accurate. I can grab any of 14 different pellets in .177 and make surgically precise shots at 20 yards (have to vary my POA depending on what I'm sighted-in for). Still take mostly headshots as mentioned above. The few I squirrels I took with heart/lung shots I then spent time trying headshots to see what penetrated. Obviously, pointed and domes penetrated, but what surprised me the most was the wadcutters. Inside their accurate ranges (roughly 30 yards), they remain my favored pesting pellet. I extended this by cleaning their nasty little tick-infested carcasses and then taking shots at skulls. It also provided much more insight to the internal layout of the tree-rat. Plus it was cathartic taking extra shots on those rotten little disease-monsters.
A special mention should be made to pumpers- most of the rifle-barreled pumpers can be rendered extremely accurate using minor mods (taping the barrel on the 880 for example), and even the lowly 760 pumper can get an upgraded barrel from the MK4-177 pumper from Crosman (barrel is ~ $10 and practically drops in). If you feel the need for year-round pesting, not just CO2-season, look no further than your garden variety pumper, find The Pellet, scope it, and perform high-speed lead-based brain surgery. Of course, why limit yourself. Get a big-bore PCP and create HOSP vapor and squirrel mist :)
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That depends on the actual pellets used, and on their accuracy out of your rifle.
If you can make brain shots, then a range out to whatever distance drops the pellet energy to 4 ft.lb should work on all those critters you mentioned. The snag is that the brain is a very small target, and that is likely to limit your range.
For body shots on sparrows and rats, 4 ft.lb should also be enough. But for body shots on squirrel, you are going to need a bit more than that. Probably should not shoot a large squirrel past 10 yards unless you hit its brain.
If you manage to brain a squirrel, you could sacrifice its body to science, and shoot it through the chest to see what penetration you get at 20 yards. Penetration all the way to the underside of the skin on the far side will be very effective and should be your goal. Even so, squirrels are very tough and are likely to run off, despite taking a shot that would be fatal within another 20 seconds. That said, puncturing one lung will kill a squirrel, but it will take a lot longer than puncturing both. If the heart is involved that would be good, but it is a small target...
For larger birds such as pigeon, head shots don't take more than for sparrows. However; body shots take a lot more energy; especially if you do not avoid the very heavy sternum; or the flight feathers. The junction between neck and shoulders is the better aim point, if the head cannot be hit for some reason.
Everything is point-on here.
I use everything from my 10 FPE CZ-634 springer on up to my hot-running MRodAir Varmint on squirrel, but almost exclusively go for headshots. This includes my favorite 2 "squirrel guns", my PP700 pistol (now turned back to 12 FPE) and my 2400KT CO2 rifle.
HOSPs don't take much energy at all to kill- 4 FPE to the head with a wadcutter. Avoid the domes and pointed pellets. Wadcutters are ideal for these tiny birds unless you're going out past 20 yards. Domes and Polymag-style are fine for body/neck/headshots on birds, but placement is crucial, though since a sparrow is so small, hit cnter-mass with almost anything and they fold like paper. Pigeons... well, just, errr, subscriber and watch some of Ted's videos :)
I've taken a few thousand pigeons (well north of 6) during a relatively short time I was employed doing avian abatement in the SF Bay Area. An R-7 springer (equivalent to the HW-30) and a Blue Streak pumper (both guns were .20) netted most of those, but I also used a Tru-Mark one-piece non-folding wrist-rocket with Tap-Cons at relatively short ranges (15 yards or less on average). A Tap-Con isn't fast but the sheer mass imparted a lot of energy and a pigeon nailed in the body or neck by one died instantly. A pellet hitting the keel or breastbone has to go through some serious muscle so I'll only attempt pigeon body shots either from directly behind or using one of my more powerful airguns- and then using domes, not wadcutters. Knowing your quarry is absolutely vital.
Rats and squirrels are a different topic. Rats are fairly fragile but incredibly smart. Shoot the larger ones in the head. They've lived the longest, have learned the most, etc. Seriously, pass on the smaller ones because they're younger and hav learned less. Wait until the old ones are all dead, then focus on the younger. 4 FPE to the skull kills a rat dead as can be. Your CO2 gun should be good to 25 or 30 yards provided you have pellets you can stack hole in hole repeatedly. My 2400KT can do that with a number of different wadcutters at even 30 yards, and really deserves a better scope than what I have, but most of my shots are 19 yards (distance from my deck to my feeders).
Squirrels...
Well, you see my forum name. I pass on many shots as my focus is almost always headshots. Ear canal, just aft of the zygomatic arch (cheekbone), or into the eye socket if they face me. My shots are almost always taken at a downward angle since my deck sits higher than the feeders , so those eye socket shots cause brain-death instantly.
As an aside, my PP700 pistol is incredibly accurate. I can grab any of 14 different pellets in .177 and make surgically precise shots at 20 yards (have to vary my POA depending on what I'm sighted-in for). Still take mostly headshots as mentioned above. The few I squirrels I took with heart/lung shots I then spent time trying headshots to see what penetrated. Obviously, pointed and domes penetrated, but what surprised me the most was the wadcutters. Inside their accurate ranges (roughly 30 yards), they remain my favored pesting pellet. I extended this by cleaning their nasty little tick-infested carcasses and then taking shots at skulls. It also provided much more insight to the internal layout of the tree-rat. Plus it was cathartic taking extra shots on those rotten little disease-monsters.
A special mention should be made to pumpers- most of the rifle-barreled pumpers can be rendered extremely accurate using minor mods (taping the barrel on the 880 for example), and even the lowly 760 pumper can get an upgraded barrel from the MK4-177 pumper from Crosman (barrel is ~ $10 and practically drops in). If you feel the need for year-round pesting, not just CO2-season, look no further than your garden variety pumper, find The Pellet, scope it, and perform high-speed lead-based brain surgery. Of course, why limit yourself. Get a big-bore PCP and create HOSP vapor and squirrel mist :)
If the situation is like mine, then pass through and ricochet are a HUGE concern!
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I've done squirrels and rabbits from 10 to 20 yards and house sparrows to 40 with an 8fpe 177cal Hw30. You'll get fatal body shots with the furry ones but they run a ways before they die. Not really a concern if you're shooting them as pest. Not so good if you have nearby neighbors. Well placed head shots smoke em every time but aren't easily made on twitchy squirrels.
I've gone to wadcutters since they are accurate at short ranges and pack a wallop similar to hollow points. Low power rifles won't open hollow points. I also use them to minimize pass throughs. Yes with only 8fpe at the barrel a domed pellet will pass through a squirrel at 15 yards. Wadcutters also bleed off energy quickly to minimize collateral damage on missed shots. I know, I know, nobody here ever misses. ::)
Lots of good information here from more experienced shooters this is just my experience with similar power equipment at short ranges.
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I've done squirrels and rabbits from 10 to 20 yards and house sparrows to 40 with an 8fpe 177cal Hw30. You'll get fatal body shots with the furry ones but they run a ways before they die. Not really a concern if you're shooting them as pest. Not so good if you have nearby neighbors. Well placed head shots smoke em every time but aren't easily made on twitchy squirrels.
I've gone to wadcutters since they are accurate at short ranges and pack a wallop similar to hollow points. Low power rifles won't open hollow points. I also use them to minimize pass throughs. Yes with only 8fpe at the barrel a domed pellet will pass through a squirrel at 15 yards. Wadcutters also bleed off energy quickly to minimize collateral damage on missed shots. I know, I know, nobody here ever misses. ::)
Lots of good information here from more experienced shooters this is just my experience with similar power equipment at short ranges.
The main problem I have with wadcutters is that I never found any that work accurately in any of my AGs out to 25 yards. Actually, I never tried them except at 10 yards/meters indoors and that told me all I needed to know. Groups were no good even at 10 yards/meters. If I can't put hole in hole at 10 meters, I know at 25 yards, they will be all over the place.
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Kerry, all my Crosman barrels love RWS wadcutters, from the MK4-177 on my 760 pumpers to my 1740, Maximus (with both .177 and .22 barrels), 1377/1322, and of course, my 2400KT. Dunno if you've tried 'em, but if not, give it a go- but keep in mind WC are match pellets, designed for tight groups at slower power levels.
I go with the RWS Meisterkugelns in .177. H&N Match and Match Heavy WC for the .22s. I'm not so keen on the H&N Excite wadcutters in .22 except in my 2400KT, but this gun still prefers the .22 Meiterkugeln WC way more. The Maximus (and Varmint) both spit the wadcutters too fast for accuracy, though if I use the RVA to drop speeds on the Max down to 760-800, it becomes a squirrel-thumper. Move 'em faster than 800 and accuracy takes a dive. 720 FPS seems to be nearly perfect, but m 2400KT doesn't shoot that fast and it's a laser with the RWS Meisterdadburnit WC.
I've killed a whole arseload of squirrels using headshots with either wadcutters or Polymag-style pellets over the last few years. My ranges are short, usually 19 yards, often less, rarely more. I also have woods behind my home filled with hickory, jack pine, and oak, and don't have much in the way of hawks or owls (sadly), and the coyote got all the feral cats a few years back. Squirrel are everywhere, so I've spent wayyyyyyy too much time figuring out good short range combinations. At some point I need to either get a PRod or perhaps a Sortie with a Sumo so I can make a real dent in the obnoxious tick-carriers.
side note: anybody know of any vendors even considering selling .25 wadcutters? I think they would shine in my 95QE.
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Kerry, all my Crosman barrels love RWS wadcutters, from the MK4-177 on my 760 pumpers to my 1740, Maximus (with both .177 and .22 barrels), 1377/1322, and of course, my 2400KT. Dunno if you've tried 'em, but if not, give it a go.
I go with the RWS Meisterkugelns in .177. H&N Match and Match Heavy WC for the .22s. I'm not so keen on the H&N Excite wadcutters in .22 except in my 2400KT, but this gun still prefers the .22 Meiterkugeln WC way more. The Maximus (and Varmint) both spit the wadcutters too fast for accuracy, though if I use the RVA to drop speeds on the Max down to 760-800, it becomes a squirrel-thumper. Move 'em faster than 800 and accuracy takes a dive.
I've killed a whole arseload of squirrels using headshots with either wadcutters or Polymag-style pellets over the last few years. My ranges are short, usually 19 yards, often less, rarely more. I also have woods behind my home filled with hickory, jack pine, and oak, and don't have much in the way of hawks or owls (sadly), and the coyote got all the feral cats a few years back. Squirrel are everywhere, so I've spent wayyyyyyy too much time figuring out good short range combinations. At some point I need to either get a PRod or perhaps a Sortie with a Sumo so I can make a real dent in the obnoxious tick-carriers.
side note: anybody know of any vendors even considering selling .25 wadcutters? I think they would shine in my 95QE.
Peter, the 10.5 CPUM and brown box work so well, I quit looking. They also work very well out to 55 yards. There is no wadcutter that will do that.
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Kerry, all my Crosman barrels love RWS wadcutters, from the MK4-177 on my 760 pumpers to my 1740, Maximus (with both .177 and .22 barrels), 1377/1322, and of course, my 2400KT. Dunno if you've tried 'em, but if not, give it a go.
I go with the RWS Meisterkugelns in .177. H&N Match and Match Heavy WC for the .22s. I'm not so keen on the H&N Excite wadcutters in .22 except in my 2400KT, but this gun still prefers the .22 Meiterkugeln WC way more. The Maximus (and Varmint) both spit the wadcutters too fast for accuracy, though if I use the RVA to drop speeds on the Max down to 760-800, it becomes a squirrel-thumper. Move 'em faster than 800 and accuracy takes a dive.
I've killed a whole arseload of squirrels using headshots with either wadcutters or Polymag-style pellets over the last few years. My ranges are short, usually 19 yards, often less, rarely more. I also have woods behind my home filled with hickory, jack pine, and oak, and don't have much in the way of hawks or owls (sadly), and the coyote got all the feral cats a few years back. Squirrel are everywhere, so I've spent wayyyyyyy too much time figuring out good short range combinations. At some point I need to either get a PRod or perhaps a Sortie with a Sumo so I can make a real dent in the obnoxious tick-carriers.
side note: anybody know of any vendors even considering selling .25 wadcutters? I think they would shine in my 95QE.
Peter, the 10.5 CPUM and brown box work so well, I quit looking. They also work very well out to 55 yards. There is no wadcutter that will do that.
;) :D
yeah, I'm a big fan of the 10.5 CPUM and Brown-Box (especially the latter in my PP700- 4th best pellet in that gun). But I have to worry about pass-throughs with the domes depending on which direction I shoot. And... the WC still shoot a trifle better (excepting in the PP700. Silver Jets work best in that which baffles me since their pointed- even at 35 yards!)
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Kerry, all my Crosman barrels love RWS wadcutters, from the MK4-177 on my 760 pumpers to my 1740, Maximus (with both .177 and .22 barrels), 1377/1322, and of course, my 2400KT. Dunno if you've tried 'em, but if not, give it a go.
I go with the RWS Meisterkugelns in .177. H&N Match and Match Heavy WC for the .22s. I'm not so keen on the H&N Excite wadcutters in .22 except in my 2400KT, but this gun still prefers the .22 Meiterkugeln WC way more. The Maximus (and Varmint) both spit the wadcutters too fast for accuracy, though if I use the RVA to drop speeds on the Max down to 760-800, it becomes a squirrel-thumper. Move 'em faster than 800 and accuracy takes a dive.
I've killed a whole arseload of squirrels using headshots with either wadcutters or Polymag-style pellets over the last few years. My ranges are short, usually 19 yards, often less, rarely more. I also have woods behind my home filled with hickory, jack pine, and oak, and don't have much in the way of hawks or owls (sadly), and the coyote got all the feral cats a few years back. Squirrel are everywhere, so I've spent wayyyyyyy too much time figuring out good short range combinations. At some point I need to either get a PRod or perhaps a Sortie with a Sumo so I can make a real dent in the obnoxious tick-carriers.
side note: anybody know of any vendors even considering selling .25 wadcutters? I think they would shine in my 95QE.
Peter, the 10.5 CPUM and brown box work so well, I quit looking. They also work very well out to 55 yards. There is no wadcutter that will do that.
;) :D
yeah, I'm a big fan of the 10.5 CPUM and Brown-Box (especially the latter in my PP700- 4th best pellet in that gun). But I have to worry about pass-throughs with the domes depending on which direction I shoot. And... the WC still shoot a trifle better (excepting in the PP700. Silver Jets work best in that which baffles me since their pointed- even at 35 yards!)
That's why I only shoot the Freedoms on low power (~730fps/~12fpe) and I always make sure I have a safe "backstop". (grin)
At 55 yards, the hold over is just under 5 inches and fpe is over 6fpe at POI... I forget the exact fpe at POI.
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I’m pretty well in agreement with most of what has been said here so far.
I’ll just reiterate that squirrels are tough to drop on the spot at the energy levels being talked about here so I would skip vitals shots and opt only for the brain. A few weeks ago I posted a short clip of a gray squirrel with almost precisely the same scenario as you’re asking about…8fpe at the muzzle, 4.6fpe on target:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=27855.msg155842107 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=27855.msg155842107)
With small birds like house sparrows, it takes very little energy indeed and I agree that wadcutters are a great choice. A center mass placement is instant lights out even at 4fpe on target. No need to aim at the tiny head. Of course that’s only an option if you can find a sufficiently accurate one and often that will limit the practical distance to something like 20 yards although sometimes you may get lucky and extend that to 30-35 yards. If you need to use a dome, that will get the job done too but the placement really needs to be though the vitals, not just more broadly center mass. Pass-throughs are a guarantee. For example I’ve gotten hosp two-fers with a 6fpe .177 using domes. That says something about how little of the energy is being dissipated as it passes through, and therefore how little tissue damage is sustained…which is why the placement of a dome is more important.
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That depends on the actual pellets used, and on their accuracy out of your rifle.
If you can make brain shots, then a range out to whatever distance drops the pellet energy to 4 ft.lb should work on all those critters you mentioned. The snag is that the brain is a very small target, and that is likely to limit your range.
For body shots on sparrows and rats, 4 ft.lb should also be enough. But for body shots on squirrel, you are going to need a bit more than that. Probably should not shoot a large squirrel past 10 yards unless you hit its brain.
If you manage to brain a squirrel, you could sacrifice its body to science, and shoot it through the chest to see what penetration you get at 20 yards. Penetration all the way to the underside of the skin on the far side will be very effective and should be your goal. Even so, squirrels are very tough and are likely to run off, despite taking a shot that would be fatal within another 20 seconds. That said, puncturing one lung will kill a squirrel, but it will take a lot longer than puncturing both. If the heart is involved that would be good, but it is a small target...
For larger birds such as pigeon, head shots don't take more than for sparrows. However; body shots take a lot more energy; especially if you do not avoid the very heavy sternum; or the flight feathers. The junction between neck and shoulders is the better aim point, if the head cannot be hit for some reason.
Everything is point-on here.
I use everything from my 10 FPE CZ-634 springer on up to my hot-running MRodAir Varmint on squirrel, but almost exclusively go for headshots. This includes my favorite 2 "squirrel guns", my PP700 pistol (now turned back to 12 FPE) and my 2400KT CO2 rifle.
HOSPs don't take much energy at all to kill- 4 FPE to the head with a wadcutter. Avoid the domes and pointed pellets. Wadcutters are ideal for these tiny birds unless you're going out past 20 yards. Domes and Polymag-style are fine for body/neck/headshots on birds, but placement is crucial, though since a sparrow is so small, hit cnter-mass with almost anything and they fold like paper. Pigeons... well, just, errr, subscriber and watch some of Ted's videos :)
I've taken a few thousand pigeons (well north of 6) during a relatively short time I was employed doing avian abatement in the SF Bay Area. An R-7 springer (equivalent to the HW-30) and a Blue Streak pumper (both guns were .20) netted most of those, but I also used a Tru-Mark one-piece non-folding wrist-rocket with Tap-Cons at relatively short ranges (15 yards or less on average). A Tap-Con isn't fast but the sheer mass imparted a lot of energy and a pigeon nailed in the body or neck by one died instantly. A pellet hitting the keel or breastbone has to go through some serious muscle so I'll only attempt pigeon body shots either from directly behind or using one of my more powerful airguns- and then using domes, not wadcutters. Knowing your quarry is absolutely vital.
Rats and squirrels are a different topic. Rats are fairly fragile but incredibly smart. Shoot the larger ones in the head. They've lived the longest, have learned the most, etc. Seriously, pass on the smaller ones because they're younger and hav learned less. Wait until the old ones are all dead, then focus on the younger. 4 FPE to the skull kills a rat dead as can be. Your CO2 gun should be good to 25 or 30 yards provided you have pellets you can stack hole in hole repeatedly. My 2400KT can do that with a number of different wadcutters at even 30 yards, and really deserves a better scope than what I have, but most of my shots are 19 yards (distance from my deck to my feeders).
Squirrels...
Well, you see my forum name. I pass on many shots as my focus is almost always headshots. Ear canal, just aft of the zygomatic arch (cheekbone), or into the eye socket if they face me. My shots are almost always taken at a downward angle since my deck sits higher than the feeders , so those eye socket shots cause brain-death instantly.
As an aside, my PP700 pistol is incredibly accurate. I can grab any of 14 different pellets in .177 and make surgically precise shots at 20 yards (have to vary my POA depending on what I'm sighted-in for). Still take mostly headshots as mentioned above. The few I squirrels I took with heart/lung shots I then spent time trying headshots to see what penetrated. Obviously, pointed and domes penetrated, but what surprised me the most was the wadcutters. Inside their accurate ranges (roughly 30 yards), they remain my favored pesting pellet. I extended this by cleaning their nasty little tick-infested carcasses and then taking shots at skulls. It also provided much more insight to the internal layout of the tree-rat. Plus it was cathartic taking extra shots on those rotten little disease-monsters.
A special mention should be made to pumpers- most of the rifle-barreled pumpers can be rendered extremely accurate using minor mods (taping the barrel on the 880 for example), and even the lowly 760 pumper can get an upgraded barrel from the MK4-177 pumper from Crosman (barrel is ~ $10 and practically drops in). If you feel the need for year-round pesting, not just CO2-season, look no further than your garden variety pumper, find The Pellet, scope it, and perform high-speed lead-based brain surgery. Of course, why limit yourself. Get a big-bore PCP and create HOSP vapor and squirrel mist :)
I'm almost offended that the 6 fpe QB79 shorty that I sold you didn't make an appearance in this post. :D
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Noticed this one out at my extreme range while posting in this thread.
The shot went a little low, but he was DRT @ 55 yards (~6+fpe @ POI). (grin)
10.5 grain CPUM, .177 Freedom on low power @~730fps.
Woo HOOO! My first kill at 55 yards in quite a while!!! I am getting better! (smile)
Almost forgot, this shot was taken with the cheap Hatsan Optima 3-12x50 scope using 12x power.
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Stormrider .177 doing 12FPE is my most blooded in gun and sits next to my rear door on hosp/rat duty. Light weight, consistent and twig snap quiet.
Lower FPE is where the vast majority of dispatches occur, watching youtube personalities taking pigeons with 80 FPE guns is entertaining, but primarily for pumping up like counts and totally unrealistic for most of us.
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Chris, the QB-shorty was a monster on the pigeons and sparrows. The only thing I couldn't deal with was the simple ergonomics. Me no like bottle-fed. I've held off on bottle-feeding my 22xx CO2 abomination frankengun for exactly this reason. I keep looking at the Wildfire as a possible "parts assembly"...
But yeah, Chris sold me a shorty QB-79 (9 inch barrel) that was Big Medicine on curing my pigeon/sparrow woes. Got a few squirrel too- dropping a CPUM down the ear canal at only 6 FPE was still effective. Domes are effective pesting tools for low power guns as long as you have the accuracy. Those 6 FPE domes often came out the other side of the throat (my shots are almost all at downward angles).
Thane- do you have any info on your Stormrider build? I changed my Varmint (same gun) from .22 to .177 but it's a firecracker. As much as I love my Maximus, I like the handling on the Stormride/Varmint/PR900 more and getting it down to 12-to-14 FPE will be my goal in the Spring.
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Chris, the QB-shorty was a monster on the pigeons and sparrows. The only thing I couldn't deal with was the simple ergonomics. Me no like bottle-fed. I've held off on bottle-feeding my 22xx CO2 abomination frankengun for exactly this reason. I keep looking at the Wildfire as a possible "parts assembly"...
But yeah, Chris sold me a shorty QB-79 (9 inch barrel) that was Big Medicine on curing my pigeon/sparrow woes. Got a few squirrel too- dropping a CPUM down the ear canal at only 6 FPE was still effective. Domes are effective pesting tools for low power guns as long as you have the accuracy. Those 6 FPE domes often came out the other side of the throat (my shots are almost all at downward angles).
Thane- do you have any info on your Stormrider build? I changed my Varmint (same gun) from .22 to .177 but it's a firecracker. As much as I love my Maximus, I like the handling on the Stormride/Varmint/PR900 more and getting it down to 12-to-14 FPE will be my goal in the Spring.
I hear you on the bottle fed thing. Unfortunately, I don't have the restraint you have and I'm going to be bottle feeding my Prod.
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Thane- do you have any info on your Stormrider build? I changed my Varmint (same gun) from .22 to .177 but it's a firecracker. As much as I love my Maximus, I like the handling on the Stormride/Varmint/PR900 more and getting it down to 12-to-14 FPE will be my goal in the Spring.
3 orings sanded flats did the trick and some spring trimming, factory was way hot and a downhill ride. Stacked rings in front of the valve until it leveled out. It likes the HN terminators and will make 46 shots @ 11FPE under 3% ES. Carbon fiber LDC replaced the grossly inadequate factory, just heat it up a bit and it falls off. No regulator or bottle needed.
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On the range, I've zeroed my scope in at 20 yards - but as the targets are paper or metal spinners, I've not actually checked penetration.
My rifle chronies at 9.25 ft/ib for the first few shots, then drops to 8.75ft/ib for most, then around 8.25ft/ib for the remainder of shots until the Co2 cart is empty.
Can anyone please give me a ballpark range for clean kill on Birds, Squirrels, Rat's, etc'?
Reread the OP. It's about an 8.5 fpe rifle and its effective range. Lots of good info guys but much of it off topic
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On the range, I've zeroed my scope in at 20 yards - but as the targets are paper or metal spinners, I've not actually checked penetration.
My rifle chronies at 9.25 ft/ib for the first few shots, then drops to 8.75ft/ib for most, then around 8.25ft/ib for the remainder of shots until the Co2 cart is empty.
Can anyone please give me a ballpark range for clean kill on Birds, Squirrels, Rat's, etc'?
Reread the OP. It's about an 8.5 fpe rifle and its effective range. Lots of good info guys but much of it off topic
Actually, buried inside all the other stuff you see a lot of information.
Location of the shot is what really matters. Distance is less important provided >enough< energy is delivered to the fatal locations. Several folks said they go for headshots. Lung shots are equally effective but then you have to know your critter's anatomy and shoot accordingly.
A few of us state this outright, citing examples of which guns we use. My 10 FPE CZ-634 is only a smidgen more powerful than 9.25 fpe and at 19 yards, it is brutally lethal on tree-rat. Given my choice of pellets (wadcutters) and the likelihood of those pellets o lose accuracy past 25 yards, shorter ranges are required. Domes are considerably more accurate than wadcutters at longer ranges, so if I wanted to use my CZ-634 on pests at longer ranges, I'd need to find which pellet works most accurately at the desired range. Since there are plenty of UK pester/hunters working permissions with 12 FPE max out to 50+ yards, I think it is fair to say a 9.25 FPE gun should probably be used at shorter ranges, or, better yet, whatever range the OP can deliver precise shots to a small target.
As I take nothing but headshots on rodents with my low-powered airguns, I keep my ranges quite short. I'm not a great shot, but optics ensure I can deliver a pellet with surgical precision. Birds are a different animal entirely, and need less power to kill. However, just like with squirrels, location is everything. I've shot at birds and swore a clean hit only to see a puff of feather and watch the bird fly away with injured pride, but otherwise be fine.
So what can be taken away is that the RANGE is almost immaterial. Everything depends on the energy levels needed to kill the desired pest and what type of kill the OP wants. If a hunter/shooter is fine with maiming shots and the quarry bleeding out, he/she can use pointed pellets or domes and extended the range to almost anything inside th projectile's max distance. I don't know any airgunners like this, though, so realistically, it takes 3 to 4 FPE to kill chippers with headshots, 4 fpe to kill a rabbit (though a dirty look is almost "powerful" enough"), 4 FPE on SMALL birds. Waterfowl are a different topic. I won't risk less than 7 FPE on squirrel but personal testing on squirrel skulls confirms a hair over 4 FPE will penetrate the braincase and make brain-jelly. Mice and rats are more fragile than squirrels and require less energy...
… and none of it matters since LOCATION is still most paramount when it comes to hunting and pesting. I've spent way too much time shooting dead animals to figure out which shots work the best for me. Simply stated, if it runs on 4 legs, headshots. For birds, center-mass with a heavier pellet- preferably a wadcutter, HP, or Polymag-style to reduce pass-through.
Ultimately, accuracy is of course as important as the energy level. If the OP wants to use an airgun shooting 8 1/2 FPE at 30 yards on small rodents or birds and can consistently shoot groups the size of a dime or smaller, I'd say go for it.
Simply stated, 8.5 FPE is only as useful as the level of accuracy the gun can deliver. Once location of the shot is a guarantee, the RANGE can be determined.
BTW, thank you, Thane!
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When this topic comes up I always remember this video. He shoots a HW30 into gel at 35 yards.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9HpzkdXCLu8 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9HpzkdXCLu8)
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My old boss had a .20 R-7. It was brutal on pigeons. He could drop a flying rat at 30+ yard using iron sights with that gun every time. I had my Blue Streak, and on 5 to 6 pumps I could just about keep up with him.
Bottom line: you don't need a lot of power... you need a lot of accuracy. So go for the accurate gun before you go for power.
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One small point about shot placement. Being able to produce small group sizes at known ranges is not sufficient to be able to hit a small target in hunting situations. To cleanly despatch small animals and birds with a low powered rifle it is necessary to hit the exact spot with the first shot which requires accurate range and wind estimation. Even small errors in range estimation at 30 yards with a low powered gun can result in a wounded animal rather than a clean kill. Otherwise, as has been said, maximum range is more down to your ability than power of the rifle.
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One small point about shot placement. Being able to produce small group sizes at known ranges is not sufficient to be able to hit a small target in hunting situations. To cleanly despatch small animals and birds with a low powered rifle it is necessary to hit the exact spot with the first shot which requires accurate range and wind estimation. Even small errors in range estimation at 30 yards with a low powered gun can result in a wounded animal rather than a clean kill. Otherwise, as has been said, maximum range is more down to your ability than power of the rifle.
Absolutely true. Doping trajectory and wind at 30 yards is definitely harder with lower powered gun. So the shooters ability IMO is definitely as important as energy levels. There's obviously still a limit to the effective range of any power level. People have a tendency to stretch out the range of their talent and or rifle whether it makes 8 or 80 fpe. It's a natural progression. Any time you stretch something out too far it becomes dicey. Whether it's 8fpe at 30 yards or 80 fpe at 100yds there's little difference. Regardless of power there's no replacement for practical practice and experience. That's why the person with one gun (regardless of power) that uses it often is almost always better than the person who has ten guns or little relevant experience. Unfortunately getting that experience is likely to be gained at the expense of some animals discomfort. It's an unpleasant reality you have to be ok with. Sure there's ways to practice at varying ranges and conditions but there's a big difference when you're pointing a gun at a living moving creature.
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I would keep it inside 25 yards. That will keep you well inside the useful trajectory and should also prevent the velocoty drop from affecting POI.
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5 inches penetration at 5.5 foot pounds at 35 yards. There is a bunch of small critters you can take with stats like that. That is plenty enough power to do normal pesting work. Your even asking about 3 more ft/lbs. I have no need to shoot that far. So almost all my pesting is done with in 15 yards.
Do some testing like put a orange at deferent ranges and see what happens.
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I would keep it inside 25 yards. That will keep you well inside the useful trajectory and should also prevent the velocoty drop from affecting POI.
I agree. That's about where I draw the line with my Hw30s on furry critters, under perfect conditions. I'll stretch it another 15-20 yards on small feathered pest.
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5 inches penetration at 5.5 foot pounds at 35 yards. There is a bunch of small critters you can take with stats like that.
That is a reasonable conclusion, except that I think gelatin penetration is not an accurate representation of live flesh (and bone) penetration, due to the gelatin's non-fibrous nature. Even the FBI that set up the gelatin recipe and bb penetration verification, want 18" of penetration for bullets intended to stop human targets. How many humans are 18" deep? I think this is a nod to "we need twice the gelatin penetration compared to a flesh target" that I am suggesting.
It would seem wasteful to shoot a thawed chicken, or even better, a never frozen animal with at least five inches of flesh depth. I seriously doubt a 5.5 ftlb .177 pellet will go deeper than 2.5" in real flesh. Think about it. How many squirrels have taken twice that energy or more, without the pellet leaving the other side of the body. Yes, these may be angling shots, but how many inches of penetration was that?
There are also subtle factors like target weight and how that interacts with low velocity pellets. For example, my 4 ft.lb IZH-46M shoots through the steel bottom of Planters peanut cans; when the can is braced against my trap. When the can is held only by its inertia, the can gets knocked back by a 7.3 grain wadcutter pellet at 500 FPS. The energy imparted to the can is subtracted from that available for penetrating the sheet steel. The result is an impressive looking dent, but no penetration.
The above effect is even more dramatic when I shoot 10.5 grain dome pellets at 415 FPS. This make it through the braced can, but only just; judging by the ripped hole. The dent in the free standing can is wide and deep.
So, when shooting at a very light animal with a slow pellet, the above effect is going to be magnified. Penetration will be exchanged for "knock-back" or concussion: If you are interested, Edgun Leshiy prefers to shoots squirrels with 34 grain .25 pellets at 520 FPS because of the concussive effect, rather than easy penetration. As this is not the hunting gate, I am not going to post the full link to his youtube video, just enough for those that want to, to find it: watch?v=jErRj4wpSC0
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Damian,
I read this thread and only saw reference (maybe I missed it) to what gun you were shooting as "Co2".
And you were shooting at the range to try and improve your groups.
What gun are you shooting?
What Pellet are you using?
What is the ambient temp in Cheshire, England this time of year?
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What gun are you shooting?
What is the ambient temp in Cheshire, England this time of year?
I've just fitted a scope to my 2250XL and am ready to get it zeroed/sighted in soon.
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So, this one, apparently: www.airgunshooting.co.uk/news/gun-test-crosman-2250-xl-1-6027438 (http://www.airgunshooting.co.uk/news/gun-test-crosman-2250-xl-1-6027438)
Also see this thread started by the Damien about CO2 performance VS temperature: www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=165796.msg155852823#msg155852823 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=165796.msg155852823#msg155852823)