Realistic hunting range of 8.5ft/ib rifle?

[anti-squirrel]

Chris, the QB-shorty was a monster on the pigeons and sparrows.  The only thing I couldn't deal with was the simple ergonomics.  Me no like bottle-fed.  I've held off on bottle-feeding my 22xx CO2 abomination frankengun for exactly this reason.  I keep looking at the Wildfire as a possible "parts assembly"... 

But yeah, Chris sold me a shorty QB-79 (9 inch barrel) that was Big Medicine on curing my pigeon/sparrow woes.  Got a few squirrel too- dropping a CPUM down the ear canal at only 6 FPE was still effective.  Domes are effective pesting tools for low power guns as long as you have the accuracy.  Those 6 FPE domes often came out the other side of the throat (my shots are almost all at downward angles).



Thane- do you have any info on your Stormrider build?  I changed my Varmint (same gun) from .22 to .177 but it's a firecracker.  As much as I love my Maximus, I like the handling on the Stormride/Varmint/PR900 more and getting it down to 12-to-14 FPE will be my goal in the Spring.

[UCChris]

Chris, the QB-shorty was a monster on the pigeons and sparrows.  The only thing I couldn't deal with was the simple ergonomics.  Me no like bottle-fed.  I've held off on bottle-feeding my 22xx CO2 abomination frankengun for exactly this reason.  I keep looking at the Wildfire as a possible "parts assembly"... 

But yeah, Chris sold me a shorty QB-79 (9 inch barrel) that was Big Medicine on curing my pigeon/sparrow woes.  Got a few squirrel too- dropping a CPUM down the ear canal at only 6 FPE was still effective.  Domes are effective pesting tools for low power guns as long as you have the accuracy.  Those 6 FPE domes often came out the other side of the throat (my shots are almost all at downward angles).



Thane- do you have any info on your Stormrider build?  I changed my Varmint (same gun) from .22 to .177 but it's a firecracker.  As much as I love my Maximus, I like the handling on the Stormride/Varmint/PR900 more and getting it down to 12-to-14 FPE will be my goal in the Spring.

I hear you on the bottle fed thing. Unfortunately, I don't have the restraint you have and I'm going to be bottle feeding my Prod.

[Thane]

...
Thane- do you have any info on your Stormrider build?  I changed my Varmint (same gun) from .22 to .177 but it's a firecracker.  As much as I love my Maximus, I like the handling on the Stormride/Varmint/PR900 more and getting it down to 12-to-14 FPE will be my goal in the Spring.

3 orings sanded flats did the trick and some spring trimming, factory was way hot and a downhill ride. Stacked rings in front of the valve until it leveled out. It likes the HN terminators and will make 46 shots @ 11FPE under 3% ES. Carbon fiber LDC replaced the grossly inadequate factory, just heat it up a bit and it falls off. No regulator or bottle needed.

[Bayman]

On the range, I've zeroed my scope in at 20 yards - but as the targets are paper or metal spinners, I've not actually checked penetration.

My rifle chronies at 9.25 ft/ib for the first few shots, then drops to 8.75ft/ib for most, then around 8.25ft/ib for the remainder of shots until the Co2 cart is empty.

Can anyone please give me a ballpark range for clean kill on Birds, Squirrels, Rat's, etc'?

Reread the OP. It's about an 8.5 fpe rifle and its effective range. Lots of good info guys but much of it off topic

[anti-squirrel]

On the range, I've zeroed my scope in at 20 yards - but as the targets are paper or metal spinners, I've not actually checked penetration.

My rifle chronies at 9.25 ft/ib for the first few shots, then drops to 8.75ft/ib for most, then around 8.25ft/ib for the remainder of shots until the Co2 cart is empty.

Can anyone please give me a ballpark range for clean kill on Birds, Squirrels, Rat's, etc'?

Reread the OP. It's about an 8.5 fpe rifle and its effective range. Lots of good info guys but much of it off topic

Actually, buried inside all the other stuff you see a lot of information.

Location of the shot is what really matters.  Distance is less important provided >enough< energy is delivered to the fatal locations.  Several folks said they go for headshots.  Lung shots are equally effective but then you have to know your critter's anatomy and shoot accordingly.

A few of us state this outright, citing examples of which guns we use.  My 10 FPE CZ-634 is only a smidgen more powerful than 9.25 fpe and at 19 yards, it is brutally lethal on tree-rat.  Given my choice of pellets (wadcutters) and the likelihood of those pellets o lose accuracy past 25 yards, shorter ranges are required.  Domes are considerably more accurate than wadcutters at longer ranges, so if I wanted to use my CZ-634 on pests at longer ranges, I'd need to find which pellet works most accurately at the desired range.  Since there are plenty of UK pester/hunters working permissions with 12 FPE max out to 50+ yards, I think it is fair to say a 9.25 FPE gun should probably be used at shorter ranges, or, better yet, whatever range the OP can deliver precise shots to a small target.

As I take nothing but headshots on rodents with my low-powered airguns, I keep my ranges quite short.  I'm not a great shot, but optics ensure I can deliver a pellet with surgical precision.  Birds are a different animal entirely, and need less power to kill.  However, just like with squirrels, location is everything.  I've shot at birds and swore a clean hit only to see a puff of feather and watch the bird fly away with injured pride, but otherwise be fine.

So what can be taken away is that the RANGE is almost immaterial.  Everything depends on the energy levels needed to kill the desired pest and what type of kill the OP wants.  If a hunter/shooter is fine with maiming shots and the quarry bleeding out, he/she can use pointed pellets or domes and extended the range to almost anything inside th projectile's max distance.  I don't know any airgunners like this, though, so realistically, it takes 3 to 4 FPE to kill chippers with headshots, 4 fpe to kill a rabbit (though a dirty look is almost "powerful" enough"), 4 FPE on SMALL birds.  Waterfowl are a different topic.  I won't risk less than 7 FPE on squirrel but personal testing on squirrel skulls confirms a hair over 4 FPE will penetrate the braincase and make brain-jelly.  Mice and rats are more fragile than squirrels and require less energy...

… and none of it matters since LOCATION is still most paramount when it comes to hunting and pesting.  I've spent way too much time shooting dead animals to figure out which shots work the best for me.  Simply stated, if it runs on 4 legs, headshots.  For birds, center-mass with a heavier pellet- preferably a wadcutter, HP, or Polymag-style to reduce pass-through. 

Ultimately, accuracy is of course as important as the energy level.  If the OP wants to use an airgun shooting 8 1/2 FPE at 30 yards on small rodents or birds and can consistently shoot groups the size of a dime or smaller, I'd say go for it.   

Simply stated, 8.5 FPE is only as useful as the level of accuracy the gun can deliver.  Once location of the shot is a guarantee, the RANGE can be determined.



BTW, thank you, Thane! 

[xtred1]

When this topic comes up I always remember this video.  He shoots a HW30 into gel at 35 yards.

[anti-squirrel]

My old boss had a .20 R-7.  It was brutal on pigeons.  He could drop a flying rat at 30+ yard using iron sights with that gun every time.  I had my Blue Streak, and on 5 to 6 pumps I could just about keep up with him. 

Bottom line: you don't need a lot of power... you need a lot of accuracy.  So go for the accurate gun before you go for power.

[ballisticboy]

One small point about shot placement. Being able to produce small group sizes at known ranges is not sufficient to be able to hit a small target in hunting situations. To cleanly despatch small animals and birds with a low powered rifle it is necessary to hit the exact spot with the first shot which requires accurate range and wind estimation. Even small errors in range estimation at 30 yards with a low powered gun can result in a wounded animal rather than a clean kill. Otherwise, as has been said, maximum range is more down to your ability than power of the rifle.

[Bayman]

One small point about shot placement. Being able to produce small group sizes at known ranges is not sufficient to be able to hit a small target in hunting situations. To cleanly despatch small animals and birds with a low powered rifle it is necessary to hit the exact spot with the first shot which requires accurate range and wind estimation. Even small errors in range estimation at 30 yards with a low powered gun can result in a wounded animal rather than a clean kill. Otherwise, as has been said, maximum range is more down to your ability than power of the rifle.

Absolutely true. Doping trajectory and wind at 30 yards is definitely harder with lower powered gun. So the shooters ability IMO is definitely as important as energy levels. There's obviously still a limit to the effective range of any power level. People have a tendency to stretch out the range of their talent and or rifle whether it makes 8 or 80 fpe. It's a natural progression. Any time you stretch something out too far it becomes dicey. Whether it's 8fpe at 30 yards or 80 fpe at 100yds there's little difference. Regardless of power there's no replacement for practical practice and experience. That's why the person with one gun (regardless of power) that uses it often is almost always better than the person who has ten guns or little relevant experience. Unfortunately getting that experience is likely to be gained at the expense of some animals discomfort. It's an unpleasant reality you have to be ok with. Sure there's ways to practice at varying ranges and conditions but there's a big difference when you're pointing a gun at a living moving creature.

[Bryan Heimann]

I would keep it inside 25 yards.  That will keep you well inside the useful trajectory and should also prevent the velocoty drop from affecting POI.

[xtred1]

5 inches penetration at 5.5 foot pounds at 35 yards.  There is a bunch of small critters you can take with stats like that. That is plenty enough power to do normal pesting work.  Your even asking about 3 more ft/lbs.  I have no need to shoot that far. So almost all my pesting is done with in 15 yards.

Do some testing like put a orange at deferent ranges and see what happens.   

[Bayman]

I would keep it inside 25 yards.  That will keep you well inside the useful trajectory and should also prevent the velocoty drop from affecting POI.

I agree. That's about where I draw the line with my Hw30s on furry critters, under perfect conditions. I'll stretch it another 15-20 yards on small feathered pest.

[subscriber]

5 inches penetration at 5.5 foot pounds at 35 yards.  There is a bunch of small critters you can take with stats like that.

That is a reasonable conclusion, except that I think gelatin penetration is not an accurate representation of live flesh (and bone) penetration, due to the gelatin's non-fibrous nature.  Even the FBI that set up the gelatin recipe and bb penetration verification, want 18" of penetration for bullets intended to stop human targets.  How many humans are 18" deep?  I think this is a nod to "we need twice the gelatin penetration compared to a flesh target" that I am suggesting.

It would seem wasteful to shoot a thawed chicken, or even better, a never frozen animal with at least five inches of flesh depth.   I seriously doubt a 5.5 ftlb .177 pellet will go deeper than 2.5" in real flesh.   Think about it.  How many squirrels have taken twice that energy or more, without the pellet leaving the other side of the body.  Yes, these may be angling shots, but how many inches of penetration was that?

There are also subtle factors like target weight and how that interacts with low velocity pellets.  For example, my 4 ft.lb IZH-46M shoots through the steel bottom of Planters peanut cans; when the can is braced against my trap.  When the can is held only by its inertia, the can gets knocked back by a 7.3 grain wadcutter pellet at 500 FPS.  The energy imparted to the can is subtracted from that available for penetrating the sheet steel.  The result is an impressive looking dent, but no penetration.

The above effect is even more dramatic when I shoot 10.5 grain dome pellets at 415 FPS.  This make it through the braced can, but only just; judging by the ripped hole.  The dent in the free standing can is wide and deep.

So, when shooting at a very light animal with a slow pellet, the above effect is going to be magnified.  Penetration will be exchanged for "knock-back" or concussion:  If you are interested, Edgun Leshiy prefers to shoots squirrels with 34 grain .25 pellets at 520 FPS because of the concussive effect, rather than easy penetration.  As this is not the hunting gate,  I am not going to post the full link to his youtube video, just enough for those that want to, to find it: watch?v=jErRj4wpSC0

[Hoosier Daddy]

Damian,
 I read this thread and only saw reference (maybe I missed it) to what gun you were shooting as "Co2".
And you were shooting at the range to try and improve your groups.

What gun are you shooting?
What Pellet are you using?
What is the ambient temp in Cheshire, England this time of year?

[subscriber]

What gun are you shooting?
What is the ambient temp in Cheshire, England this time of year?

I've just fitted a scope to my 2250XL and am ready to get it zeroed/sighted in soon.
.......

So, this one, apparently:  www.airgunshooting.co.uk/news/gun-test-crosman-2250-xl-1-6027438


Also see this thread started by the Damien about CO2 performance VS temperature:  www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=165796.msg155852823#msg155852823