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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Rallyshark on November 10, 2019, 02:51:21 AM
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Okay guys, I'm going to re-barrel a .22, and I wanted some opinions from others on the different barrels out there. My number one requirement is that it shoots some variant of HP pellets(H&N usually) OR shoots some of the lighter weight slugs well(under 25 grain). The barrel liking the Monster redesigned would be good too, but most barrels tend to like those. I will be getting the barrel machined to fit, so will be starting with a blank most likely. I know I'm asking someone to say "get this barrel", and that like most, I want it to shoot great with everything,lol. I'm aware there is no perfect barrel for everything, but hopefully you guys can offer some input to help me narrow down the direction I want to go.
I could go with a known barrel I've used before, and that would be a LW Polygon choked barrel. That barrel doesn't like a ton of pellets, but it did love the NSA 21 grain slugs and JSB Monsters. However, those NSA slugs aren't part of the the options anymore. I've also considered an an unchoked poly barrel. I love how little cleaning they need. The downside being they are pellet fussy and like speed. I will be shooting the gun in the 30-55 fpe range, so speed is fine sometimes, but I would like the ability to use lower power tunes around the house.
So, right now it is up in the air on what barrel I will get. No soda straws, because it will need a 1/2-20 thread on the end :D Barrels considered are listed below:
-LW Poly choked
-LW Poly unchoked
-LW standard unchoked
-Weihrauch 16mm OD choked or unchoked(if I can get one)
-CZ 200 barrel from PA(seems to be enough material to machine it to fit.
It will be going on a Synthetic Flashpup, so length is a bit open. The factory barrel isn't bad, but it doesn't like much of the ammo I do. It likes ammo that I would only use for targets. I just don't want to go shorter than the factory 17.75" barrel. I am open to anywhere from 18-23". I'll probable try and go with about 19-20". I would greatly appreciate anyone's input or experience with any of the barrels I listed, or any I didn't. I'd like to know what ammo they like, of course. If I do use slugs, they will probably be from NSA. Bring on the opinions and info please!
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TJ slug liner?
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Okay guys, I'm going to re-barrel a .22, and I wanted some opinions from others on the different barrels out there. My number one requirement is that it shoots some variant of HP pellets(H&N usually) OR shoots some of the lighter weight slugs well(under 25 grain). The barrel liking the Monster redesigned would be good too, but most barrels tend to like those. I will be getting the barrel machined to fit, so will be starting with a blank most likely. I know I'm asking someone to say "get this barrel", and that like most, I want it to shoot great with everything,lol. I'm aware there is no perfect barrel for everything, but hopefully you guys can offer some input to help me narrow down the direction I want to go.
I could go with a known barrel I've used before, and that would be a LW Polygon choked barrel. That barrel doesn't like a ton of pellets, but it did love the NSA 21 grain slugs and JSB Monsters. However, those NSA slugs aren't part of the the options anymore. I've also considered an an unchoked poly barrel. I love how little cleaning they need. The downside being they are pellet fussy and like speed. I will be shooting the gun in the 30-55 fpe range, so speed is fine sometimes, but I would like the ability to use lower power tunes around the house.
So, right now it is up in the air on what barrel I will get. No soda straws, because it will need a 1/2-20 thread on the end :D Barrels considered are listed below:
-LW Poly choked
-LW Poly unchoked
-LW standard unchoked
-Weihrauch 16mm OD choked or unchoked(if I can get one)
-CZ 200 barrel from PA(seems to be enough material to machine it to fit.
It will be going on a Synthetic Flashpup, so length is a bit open. The factory barrel isn't bad, but it doesn't like much of the ammo I do. It likes ammo that I would only use for targets. I just don't want to go shorter than the factory 17.75" barrel. I am open to anywhere from 18-23". I'll probable try and go with about 19-20". I would greatly appreciate anyone's input or experience with any of the barrels I listed, or any I didn't. I'd like to know what ammo they like, of course. If I do use slugs, they will probably be from NSA. Bring on the opinions and info please!
You killed my idea with the "no soda straws" lol!!!
I have been ordering .22 barrel liners from Brownells Gunsmithing Supplies.
they are the same Dia. as the FX liners. Yes, very thin!
This allows me to wrap them in carbon fiber tubes to bring up the dia. to anything I want. Very stiff this way, and very light.
I am currently shooting one in 1-16 twist for .22 LR weight bullets. (39-40 gr.) This week I will be getting in a 1-20 twist for the custom bullets Icast at 29 grs. Looking very forward to it.
I use the barrel in a factory RS II shroud, and have a DonnyFL Shogun on it. Works very well!
At 35 bucks a barrel, I don't see how you can beat the deal! They come out to 25" or less when preped. I chose 20" for the LR barrel.
Knife 8)
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As for barrel threading, you can buy silencer adapters from e-bay for a tenner or two.
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Donny,
Rocker1 is installing a CZ 200 barrel on my skyhawk, give me a
week or 2 and i will tell you all about it.... ;)
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Knife, those are some killer prices! Unfortunately they won't work for my application :( Rkr, the adapters would be nice, but the OD of the soda straws are too small to fit the breech too. Throw in an o-ring groove, and it is getting pretty sketchy at that point. I had considered putting an o-ring groove on the probe, but I'm not sure how well it would hold up going through magazines all the time. I'm too lazy to mess with single shot loading. If that were not the case, I'd have an Airforce :D
John, I've been eyeing those CZ200 barrels for a long time! I've very curious to see how yours turns out. Tell Mr. David that I hope he does barrels better than he drives, hahaha! I'm just joking. He'll know probably laugh, because Mr. David and I play Gran Turismo Sport online and try to beat each other's lap times. I suspect that gun is going to be a heck of a shooter when he gets done with it!
Come on people, more input!
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I was able to use one of the liners knife mentioned in .172. Instead of using carbon fiber I slipped mine into a 4140 tube, tig welded one side threaded the other and put the barrel under tension. Then I ground down the nut and can thread it to 1/2 x20 now. Another person made a collet to hold the breech o ring and transfer port. If you made a threaded collet and threaded tension nut with threads on both sides and had a carbon fiber or steel tube then you could change out liners at will. You could do the same thing with a tj liner and have hammer forged in pellet calibers. Or if you went with slugs you have a lot more options out there by buying a pb blank. Columbia river does polygonal barrels and blanks.
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Donny,
Rocker1 is installing a CZ 200 barrel on my skyhawk, give me a
week or 2 and i will tell you all about it.... ;)
Is he doing all the machining, or did you get that done elsewhere?
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What about an FX smooth twist x barrel and liner blank? This way you can change liners for pellets or slugs.
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Donny,
Rocker1 is installing a CZ 200 barrel on my skyhawk, give me a
week or 2 and i will tell you all about it.... ;)
Is he doing all the machining, or did you get that done elsewhere?
he is doing the whole shoot'n match...even installing the
Huma power plenum. 8)
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Idk about installing custom barrels but I know the cz barrels are awesome.
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Donny, the cf tubing extends all the way thru the breech. So no issues there.
Hobbyman2007 made a thimble for his as per fx system. works well.
Knife
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Knife, those are some killer prices! Unfortunately they won't work for my application :( Rkr, the adapters would be nice, but the OD of the soda straws are too small to fit the breech too. Throw in an o-ring groove, and it is getting pretty sketchy at that point. I had considered putting an o-ring groove on the probe, but I'm not sure how well it would hold up going through magazines all the time. I'm too lazy to mess with single shot loading. If that were not the case, I'd have an Airforce :D
John, I've been eyeing those CZ200 barrels for a long time! I've very curious to see how yours turns out. Tell Mr. David that I hope he does barrels better than he drives, hahaha! I'm just joking. He'll know probably laugh, because Mr. David and I play Gran Turismo Sport online and try to beat each other's lap times. I suspect that gun is going to be a heck of a shooter when he gets done with it!
Come on people, more input!
O-ring on the probe works just fine on BSAs and they have both self indexing and cuckoo clock magazines. You may need to change it every few thousand shots (5000+ in my experience) but since it's on the probe it's easy to do. For breech end I've used a fitting steel or copper pipe epoxied on the liner, some use CF tube and that also seems to work well.
BSA barrels are great pellet shooters and they seem to do well with slugs as well. 15.5mm OD. They come in 12", 15" and 18.5" lengths.
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I was able to use one of the liners knife mentioned in .172. Instead of using carbon fiber I slipped mine into a 4140 tube, tig welded one side threaded the other and put the barrel under tension. Then I ground down the nut and can thread it to 1/2 x20 now. Another person made a collet to hold the breech o ring and transfer port. If you made a threaded collet and threaded tension nut with threads on both sides and had a carbon fiber or steel tube then you could change out liners at will. You could do the same thing with a tj liner and have hammer forged in pellet calibers. Or if you went with slugs you have a lot more options out there by buying a pb blank. Columbia river does polygonal barrels and blanks.
Do you have any pictures of this?
Donny, the cf tubing extends all the way thru the breech. So no issues there.
Hobbyman2007 made a thimble for his as per fx system. works well.
Knife
Very interesting stuff there, and not a bad idea! Pictures always help :D
What about an FX smooth twist x barrel and liner blank? This way you can change liners for pellets or slugs.
I think that is kinda what Knife is talking about that Hobbyman did? I'll have to look into this more I think...
Knife, those are some killer prices! Unfortunately they won't work for my application :( Rkr, the adapters would be nice, but the OD of the soda straws are too small to fit the breech too. Throw in an o-ring groove, and it is getting pretty sketchy at that point. I had considered putting an o-ring groove on the probe, but I'm not sure how well it would hold up going through magazines all the time. I'm too lazy to mess with single shot loading. If that were not the case, I'd have an Airforce :D
John, I've been eyeing those CZ200 barrels for a long time! I've very curious to see how yours turns out. Tell Mr. David that I hope he does barrels better than he drives, hahaha! I'm just joking. He'll know probably laugh, because Mr. David and I play Gran Turismo Sport online and try to beat each other's lap times. I suspect that gun is going to be a heck of a shooter when he gets done with it!
Come on people, more input!
O-ring on the probe works just fine on BSAs and they have both self indexing and cuckoo clock magazines. You may need to change it every few thousand shots (5000+ in my experience) but since it's on the probe it's easy to do. For breech end I've used a fitting steel or copper pipe epoxied on the liner, some use CF tube and that also seems to work well.
BSA barrels are great pellet shooters and they seem to do well with slugs as well. 15.5mm OD. They come in 12", 15" and 18.5" lengths.
Where are these BSA barrels being sourced from? Which pellets and slugs have you had success with?
There's one bit of info I didn't give you guys. This bone head right here will be doing the machining :P I'm rusty on the lathe, but at least I can go at my own pace, and I have a couple of junk barrels to play with. I don't know how complicated I want to go. I know how to do the threading, but it has been a while. I can make the tool for the o-ring groove, however I decide to make it, so that shouldn't be an issue. I made the tool for my poly barrel on my .177. It will be an adventure either way. I had considered the FX liners too, but wasn't so sure how I wanted to approach it if I did. I think I get all the concepts you guys are mentioning, but any pictures that can be provided would be appreciated :D Thanks for all the ideas so far!!
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The first barrel I would get is a TJ’s . They’re affordable and easy enough to get your hands on . For pellets and bullets I would go the 1:20” twist . The simplest method would be to get a 1/2” OD barrel and work from there. The only thing with a 1/2 “ or bigger barrel is the weight . Here’s a pic of the thimble i just made for a .172 barrel in 3/8” OD . I’m going to add a Carbon fiber tube that butts up against the thimble and epoxy it all together as 1 piece . That should keep the weight down
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I don't know if this will help but I have 4 custom barrels. 17 cal LW choked barrel 1:18 twist machined by Roy at Mountain Air custom airguns and it is very accurate with the JSB 16.2 gr pellets but I currently have the gun tuned for H&N piledrivers and it is still accurate at least out to 30-40 yards. The next barrel is a 30 cal TJ 1:26 twist machined by Roy. So far this barrel loves the vortex 44.75gr pellets. I just ordered some 47.2gr slugs from NSA last night so I will have to let you know how they perform. The last two are MMHF barrels made by Jim Gaska. One in 22 and one in 25. They both have 1:18 twist. The 25 barrel shoots the JSB 33.95gr pellets very well and I have been trying some different slugs. I have a bunch of NSA 33.5gr slugs that I have to shoot out past 40 yards. The 22 likes the 25.39gr JSB's and it has serious promise with AVS 23gr cup base slugs. I don't know if this helps or not. I figure if I can find one pellet and one slug that shoots well out of my guns I think I will be happy lol.
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Donny;
The last two barrels I did, I ended up putting the o ring in the probe. I used 90 dur. Poly o rings from the o ring store. (Model: UC90006 AS568-006 UC 90 Cast Polyurethane 90 Duro O-rings). The have held up just fine going thur the mag's. I changed one out after around 3000-4000 rounds.
It didn't need it, but what the heck. They are cheap, and much faster to change than breech o rings.Especially in the field or at a match. Polly o rings really take a beating at high pressure. It is what they are designed for. And why Tom at Shoebox Compressors has his custom made o rings made from it. ;)
To change an o ring, I simply remove the old one with a jewelers pick and place the new one on the probe pin with a little silicone grease on it. Close the action and it slips into its groove on its own. Woo_Hoo!!!.
For the .172 I will put a few on a mandrel and spin them against 400 grit bench role to take down the od a bit. Other than that, same-same.
Mike
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The first barrel I would get is a TJ’s . They’re affordable and easy enough to get your hands on . For pellets and bullets I would go the 1:20” twist . The simplest method would be to get a 1/2” OD barrel and work from there. The only thing with a 1/2 “ or bigger barrel is the weight . Here’s a pic of the thimble i just made for a .172 barrel in 3/8” OD . I’m going to add a Carbon fiber tube that butts up against the thimble and epoxy it all together as 1 piece . That should keep the weight down
Oh lawdy that is beautiful! :o 8) Maybe I should order some more brass and try to turn one on the mill. Can't hurt to try!
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Thanks Knife . I’m still very new at operating the lathe . To be honest I dont even know which cutter I’m supposed to use for what type of cut I want . And let’s not talk about the RPM . That one has me baffled . I have a lot of reading to do regarding machining parts . Just have to find the time . Once again I’m out of town for the week which means no playing with the hobby .
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Thanks Knife . I’m still very new at operating the lathe . To be honest I dont even know which cutter I’m supposed to use for what type of cut I want . And let’s not talk about the RPM . That one has me baffled . I have a lot of reading to do regarding machining parts . Just have to find the time . Once again I’m out of town for the week which means no playing with the hobby .
GRRRR!!!
Don't ya just hate it when life gets in the way of our hobby? LOL
I cheat when it comes to rpm. I have always worked in very hard metals so I had to find cutters that would stand up to milling up to 60 Rockwell hardness materials. I use only micrograin c6 carbide, usually coated this allows me to use high rpm's usually without lube of any kind on such soft materials as brass. For alu, I use straight alcohol as it prevents sticking and gives a good finish. Oddly enough, common glass cleaner also gives a nice finish on alu as well. :o
The trick is very shallow cuts at high rpm rather than deep cuts at lower rpm. This is very helpful for smaller, less rigid machines as well. Sorta like turning my mill into a giant dremel tool. ;D
Really gives a great finish as well. I have been told that carbide cannot be sharpened to a fine edge. Well, it can.
On very vine diamond stones. I use 2000 grit finishing diamond stone that is worn, so is actually much finner. Man, they get scary sharp!
Contrary to popular believe, the higher rpm's when using carbide offers much less chances of chipping. Learned the hard way over the years.
This technique can be seen when watching cnc mills and lathes at high rpm's. Only wish I could reach those rpm's. fascinating to see.
Knife/Mike
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You guys have got the gears turning in my head right now :o I have considered that thimble idea, and an FX slug liner. I've seen where people have had good results with slugs and pellets with them. In other words, it seems to be a proven solution. Part of the decision may have temporarily been made for me, because I have a friend that was getting a choked poly barrel machined that never got finished. He sold the gun, but still has the barrel. It is still full length, so there is still plenty there for me to work with, and it would be a bargain barrel, should I mess up :-[
I'm not done with those other ideas you guys have mentioned, fwiw. Denis, I'm right there with you on learning the lathe stuff. Well, I know how to use one, but it has been a long time, and I got my hands on one the mini lathes used from someone. I'm going to go through it and get everything up to snuff first. On that note, I would have thought I'd need a faster twist than 1:20 for slugs in .22? What caliber was that barrel for? Also, do any of you have a list for what barrels are available from TJs?
Bear air, I already have a choked poly barrel in .177 for my other gun, and it works quite well! I want this next barrel for the current gun to be .22 though.
Knife, that is good to know about the probe o-ring. That would definitely make the o-ring process much easier, if I wanted to go that route. I just haven't decided if I want to or not. We are talking about self indexing Hatsan magazines here, so they may find a way to mess that little o-ring up, haha.
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Donny , here are the barrel lists , both Powder and air . I do believe there are others that aren’t listed , that’s where the 1:20 falls in . You haven’t mentioned the gun you plan on using as a base . For what it’s worth if I could get my hands on a LW barrel I would use that first , they are on the big side for airgun use and would make it easier to size bullets for .
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Donny , here are the barrel lists , both Powder and air . I do believe there are others that aren’t listed , that’s where the 1:20 falls in . You haven’t mentioned the gun you plan on using as a base . For what it’s worth if I could get my hands on a LW barrel I would use that first , they are on the big side for airgun use and would make it easier to size bullets for .
You just mentioned one of the biggest reasons I haven't put so much thought into the TJs. That being how tight they are in .22. Any slugs or pellets I shoot will be straight out of the box/tin. All of this is pointing to, I really need to see what I can do with that bargain poly barrel I'll be getting my hands on in a few days I think. If I don't get what I'm looking for out of it, then I can proceed down the rabbit hole of maybe doing the thimble/FX slug liner or some other barrel. The best I can figure out, I don't think the twist rates are as critical as many think in the .22 barrels shooting stuff in the 25-ish grain area. It think it comes down more to tuning and finding the right speed/projectile to work with the barrel. Still, I would like to continue to hear people's ideas and thoughts on this barrel thing. I feel like there is a lot of very good info that is showing up in this thread that may not otherwise be in one thread, so lets keep it going :D
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Donny, the 1-16 twist I have in the liner from Brownells shoots the 39 gr very well. the shorter bullet from Denis's decked mold shoots fair. I do see a bit of tail wagging past 80 yards though. It does make a difference.
the 1-16 39 gr combo is shooting in still air 1/2" most times when the RS II's trigger will corporate. And it still shoots better than most of the .25's bullets in the wind. Seems it has a good bc.
That being said, the 39 gr. bullet I am currently shooting did not shoot well in his barrel. they are both 1-16 bought at the same time from Brownells. So no hard and fast rule apparently. I have a 1-20 that will be here tomorrow or wed. Supposedly with this weather, Grrrrr+ Grrrrr! man I hate cold weather.
I will be able to test the different twist with the same bullets in the same platform. Should tell a tail. I am waiting for the cf tubing and more brass to make either the thimble, or bolt. Or both. LOL
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Donny, the 1-16 twist I have in the liner from Brownells shoots the 39 gr very well. the shorter bullet from Denis's decked mold shoots fair. I do see a bit of tail wagging past 80 yards though. It does make a difference.
the 1-16 39 gr combo is shooting in still air 1/2" most times when the RS II's trigger will corporate. And it still shoots better than most of the .25's bullets in the wind. Seems it has a good bc.
That being said, the 39 gr. bullet I am currently shooting did not shoot well in his barrel. they are both 1-16 bought at the same time from Brownells. So no hard and fast rule apparently. I have a 1-20 that will be here tomorrow or wed. Supposedly with this weather, Grrrrr+ Grrrrr! man I hate cold weather.
I will be able to test the different twist with the same bullets in the same platform. Should tell a tail. I am waiting for the cf tubing and more brass to make either the thimble, or bolt. Or both. LOL
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are referring to the powder burner barrel, right? I do have that one stipulation on my barrel that it can also handle some pellets, if need be.
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Donny, the TJ's pb barrels are perfectly capable of shooting pellets just fine. The slug/pellet barrel from JSAR are pb liners. And far higher quality than most any factory pellet barrel. ;)
Is your goal paper punching at short ranges. Say 30 yards. stick with pellets and forget slugs. It can be done. but takes research.
Hunting, or longer ranges, Nothing in pellets can compete. Nothing. Only the need to put a drag chute on your projectiles to greatly limit range would call for a pellet. Once you start shooting them, with the much better wind resistance. less drop, and hugly heavier impact, Well, I don't buy pellets. Ever!
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Donny, the 1-16 twist I have in the liner from Brownells shoots the 39 gr very well. the shorter bullet from Denis's decked mold shoots fair. I do see a bit of tail wagging past 80 yards though. It does make a difference.
the 1-16 39 gr combo is shooting in still air 1/2" most times when the RS II's trigger will corporate. And it still shoots better than most of the .25's bullets in the wind. Seems it has a good bc.
That being said, the 39 gr. bullet I am currently shooting did not shoot well in his barrel. they are both 1-16 bought at the same time from Brownells. So no hard and fast rule apparently. I have a 1-20 that will be here tomorrow or wed. Supposedly with this weather, Grrrrr+ Grrrrr! man I hate cold weather.
I will be able to test the different twist with the same bullets in the same platform. Should tell a tail. I am waiting for the cf tubing and more brass to make either the thimble, or bolt. Or both. LOL
It will be interesting to hear how that 1:20 twist works with slugs, I use 1:20 in my .357 and short slugs. My understanding is that a tighter twist would be good in .22, something in 1:12-1:16 range depending on the bullet length.
Here's data from LWs website (in millimeters), as you can see airgun barrels have same groove size as .22lr allowing them to be used with pellets as well:
Bore-Groove
.22 Airgun 5.46-5.62
.22lr 5.49-5.62
.22 Hornet 5.51-5.64
.22Mag/.222 Rem/.223Rem 5.56-5.69
I think that a .22 Hornet would actually be a rather good pellet/bullet barrel as it comes with 15.4" twist rate.
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Of the multiple .22 caliber barrels I have , the Impact slug liner shoots best ( no surprise) and a close second is the Evanix . Both are real close to 1:16” twist and both shoot pellets and bullets equally well. To be fair I haven’t really had a chance to shoot enough lightweight bullets ,say under 30 grain from either much past 40 yards . I’m interested in the slower twist .
I wonder if the Eun Jin ( big OD) pellets would work in a .22lr barrel.
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Knife, I've shot slugs in the .22 poly barrel I had on one of my other guns, and it absolutely loved the NSA 21 gr, but NSA isn't making those anymore, so I don't know how his new offerings would do yet. So yep, I'm very familiar with the benefit of slugs over pellets ;) I'm not a paper puncher most of the time, but I do shoot targets every once in a while. The fact that I'm getting another LW poly barrel for basically free, dictates that I give that one a try though,lol!
rkr, I didn't even realize that LW's pb barrels were that close to the air gun barrels in specs?! I see they have 8 lands vs 12 too. I bet those would work great with the right slugs. I need to keep that in mind down the road.
Denis, If I were going to do the thimble thing, an FX slug liner would likely be my first choice to try, with some CF sleeving, of course.
All very good info guys!
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Of the multiple .22 caliber barrels I have , the Impact slug liner shoots best ( no surprise) and a close second is the Evanix . Both are real close to 1:16” twist and both shoot pellets and bullets equally well. To be fair I haven’t really had a chance to shoot enough lightweight bullets ,say under 30 grain from either much past 40 yards . I’m interested in the slower twist .
I wonder if the Eun Jin ( big OD) pellets would work in a .22lr barrel.
I have pushed them thru a older very seasoned Marlin Model 60 barrel (microgroove) and it looked like chances where good...head and skirt had good engagement... In the Model 883 .22 WMR microgroove barrel it looks like the nose will bore ride with good skirt engagement...
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The barrel I just got in Tues. afternoon is in the shop curing to the cf tubing as I type this.
Denis and I have already installed the 1-16 twist for the full length NOE slugs, and the 1-20 is for a shorter lighter slug.
I made a modded thimble and permanently attached it to the barrel, and have two cf sleeves (tubes carbon twill), installed. an 8x10 mm and a 11x14. I will probably add one more soon.
Denis, you said the FX. Brownells lioner in it, or you trying he FX slug liner?
If weather permits, I will test tomorrow night.
Next project, the .172. No mold for the short .22 or the .172 yet. but Denis was gracious enough to allow me to cast a good bit of the 29 gr decked NOE mold .224 bullets.
I also modded the .257 mag. for the RS II to shoot the .22's. When hunting vermin, I don't have time to single load. LOL. that, and the RS is a pain to single load.
Fingers crossed Guys! Wish me luck. ;) 8)
Mike
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Mike, what gun are you building your .172 on? I was able to fire my .172 prod/disco/double and got 739 fps with a 26 gr bullet. Will your 39gr .224 bullets fit in a prod mag?
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Mike, what gun are you building your .172 on? I was able to fire my .172 prod/disco/double and got 739 fps with a 26 gr bullet. Will your 39gr .224 bullets fit in a prod mag?
It is a highly modded Rainstorm II. All ports, and valve have been modded in it. Wait just a sec. and I will try an MRod mag. I don't have a Prod sadly.
They barely fit the MRod mag. I may have used a ball nose end mill to help. I don't remember now. So many mod's over such a long period of time. Getting old ya know. LOL ;D
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Okay guys, I got my hands on that LW barrel from my friend that was never finished getting machined. Turns out, it isn't a polygon. It is a standard rifled choked barrel. The good news is, I will still have more than enough barrel to work with, as I'll only have to chop off about 2" at the breech end. This barrel has a pretty tight bore from my measurements. Measuring the grooves, I'm getting .216 at the muzzle end and .219 at the breech end. Of course, my measurements/calipers could be off a bit. Still, that is quite a bit tighter than the .216 land/.221 groove listed as the specs by LW. For comparison, my Hatsan barrel is .221 groove at the muzzle. I pushed a pellet and a NSA slug through it, and it looked like the grooves and lands were riding them. In other words, the entire surface was marked. That could be due to some of the machining that was done on the breech end though. I will re-test the push through after I get it chopped and cleaned up(hopefully tomorrow). I'll also re-measure too.
Is it just me, or is that pretty tight for a LW barrel? I measured two other Hatsan barrels in .22, and they ranged .219-.221 groove at the muzzle fwiw.
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" I measured two other Hatsan barrels in .22, and they ranged .219-.221 groove at the muzzle fwiw. "
I think you meant at the Breech...
My AT44 long is about .220 at the breech maybe a .2197... it is .215 groove at muzzle... done with a Fowler mic and a .223 slug...
have a 14" airforce surplus L.W. .22 barrel it seems to be about .2204 at the breech end and .2157 at choke...
Keep hoping I hit the lotto then I promise to try a CZ 455-457 barrel.. ;) .212 bore by their specs...
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Donny, people keep telling me I'm wrong when I give my l/w specs always quoting the posted specs. Well, "ALL" L/W's I have here are under the published specs. Seems they need to rewrite their specifications. LOL!
I never take the spec's a barrel maker to heart. Nor molds for that matter. Seems most are off. MP mold specs were WAY Off. They sell a .257 mold that is only a .251. GRRRRR!!!
Mike
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" I measured two other Hatsan barrels in .22, and they ranged .219-.221 groove at the muzzle fwiw. "
I think you meant at the Breech...
My AT44 long is about .220 at the breech maybe a .2197... it is .215 groove at muzzle... done with a Fowler mic and a .223 slug...
have a 14" airforce surplus L.W. .22 barrel it seems to be about .2204 at the breech end and .2157 at choke...
Keep hoping I hit the lotto then I promise to try a CZ 455-457 barrel.. ;) .212 bore by their specs...
No sir, I mean at the muzzle. I was getting .219 at the breech, and .216 at the muzzle. It has pretty shallow grooves too, so I'm hesitant to do too much polishing on that choke end. That barrel is tight for sure. I pushed a BBT 30 grain through it and it was a bear to get through there, especially the choke end. It pretty much engaged the grooves and lands with that one. I bet it will be one heck of a pellet shooter, but not so much for the slugs probably. I had one Hatsan barrel that I measured .216 at the muzzle, but that barrel went with a gun I sold. The other two Hatsan barrels I have are measuring larger.
Donny, people keep telling me I'm wrong when I give my l/w specs always quoting the posted specs. Well, "ALL" L/W's I have here are under the published specs. Seems they need to rewrite their specifications. LOL!
I never take the spec's a barrel maker to heart. Nor molds for that matter. Seems most are off. MP mold specs were WAY Off. They sell a .257 mold that is only a .251. GRRRRR!!!
Mike
Yeah, I'm thinking the LW barrels probably vary a bit, depending on the age of the tooling? I was really hoping that barrel that I got would be a little looser, but it was essentially free. Kinda hard to complain about that :D I'm thinking I may try to get my hands on another barrel to play with..
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Or you could stop playing the barrel lottery. You are trying to get barrels to fit the bullets. Kinda back ars backeards. Size the choke!
Heck NOE sizing system and inserts are low cost. Much less than barrels. Should yo pick another gun, your still in business. The different size inserts are only 9.99 bucks each. The die body ie 39. bucks Far cheaper than any good barrel, and can size for many different barrels of different sizes and or calibers. ;)
Mike.
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Or you could stop playing the barrel lottery. You are trying to get barrels to fit the bullets. Kinda back ars backeards. Size the choke!
Heck NOE sizing system and inserts are low cost. Much less than barrels. Should yo pick another gun, your still in business. The different size inserts are only 9.99 bucks each. The die body ie 39. bucks Far cheaper than any good barrel, and can size for many different barrels of different sizes and or calibers. ;)
Mike.
My initial plan still stands. I just happened to have got this LW barrel for free, so I would be silly not to see what I can do with it. Right now, I'm trying to decide if I want to go with a barrel with known performance like an FX slug liner, or if I want to try out an LW Polygon unchoked barrel. I think my deciding factor is going to be which one do I think I'll have more trouble fitting to the gun. I'm still learning what I can get away with on this cheapo mini lathe :-[
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I went ahead and ordered an FX slug liner A to play with. Can anyone tell me what the OD of those liners are? I'll figure it out when it arrives of course, but it would be nice if I could go ahead and gets some CF tubing on the way. I also ordered some brass rod to fit to the liner on the breech end. This should be fun, if I can make it work :D
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I went ahead and ordered an FX slug liner A to play with. Can anyone tell me what the OD of those liners are? I'll figure it out when it arrives of course, but it would be nice if I could go ahead and gets some CF tubing on the way. I also ordered some brass rod to fit to the liner on the breech end. This should be fun, if I can make it work :D
i just put a slug liner in my .30 wildcat
the pellet liner OD is .3955
its not perfectly round. it has groove indentions, but the max is as stated
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I went ahead and ordered an FX slug liner A to play with. Can anyone tell me what the OD of those liners are? I'll figure it out when it arrives of course, but it would be nice if I could go ahead and gets some CF tubing on the way. I also ordered some brass rod to fit to the liner on the breech end. This should be fun, if I can make it work :D
i just put a slug liner in my .30 wildcat
the pellet liner OD is .3955
its not perfectly round. it has groove indentions, but the max is as stated
Hmmm, I'm wondering if the .22 liner will have a smaller OD? I've decided I'm going to take this LW barrel I have a shorty, since it is doubtful I'll ever be using it for high power. It has such a tight bore, that it should be a laser with middle weight pellets. I'll save the slug liner for the bigger power fun.
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I finished up barrel number 1 tonight(the shorty)! It measures 15 3/8". I just gotta let the CF sleeve cure, then I'll be able to get it in the gun for some testing. Hopefully, I can get that done tomorrow or Thursday. With the shorter LDC mounted, that'll put it around 27" long. It should make a great little bush gun with a 30fpe tune. Barrel number 2 will take a bit more time, since I'll have order some more CF. I already have some brass bar to fit the FX slug liner into though. To be continued...
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I finished up barrel number 1 tonight(the shorty)! It measures 15 3/8". I just gotta let the CF sleeve cure, then I'll be able to get it in the gun for some testing. Hopefully, I can get that done tomorrow or Thursday. With the shorter LDC mounted, that'll put it around 27" long. It should make a great little bush gun with a 30fpe tune. Barrel number 2 will take a bit more time, since I'll have order some more CF. I already have some brass bar to fit the FX slug liner into though. To be continued...
What size CF? I have some of this laying around. Will that fit? Sorry, don't have time right now to read through and see what diameter you're starting with.
https://www.clearwatercomposites.com/product/9-16-x-0-691-carbon-fiber-tube-72-length/ (https://www.clearwatercomposites.com/product/9-16-x-0-691-carbon-fiber-tube-72-length/)
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Great looking barrel, what moderator do you plan on using? This is exactly what I plan on doing with my next build/gun.
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I finished up barrel number 1 tonight(the shorty)! It measures 15 3/8". I just gotta let the CF sleeve cure, then I'll be able to get it in the gun for some testing. Hopefully, I can get that done tomorrow or Thursday. With the shorter LDC mounted, that'll put it around 27" long. It should make a great little bush gun with a 30fpe tune. Barrel number 2 will take a bit more time, since I'll have order some more CF. I already have some brass bar to fit the FX slug liner into though. To be continued...
What size CF? I have some of this laying around. Will that fit? Sorry, don't have time right now to read through and see what diameter you're starting with.
https://www.clearwatercomposites.com/product/9-16-x-0-691-carbon-fiber-tube-72-length/ (https://www.clearwatercomposites.com/product/9-16-x-0-691-carbon-fiber-tube-72-length/)
I used 14mm ID/16mm OD on this barrel, but I don't know what size I'll need for barrel number 2 yet. I don't know the OD of the liner, until I get it in my hands. I'm probably going to double or triple sleeve the next one.
Great looking barrel, what moderator do you plan on using? This is exactly what I plan on doing with my next build/gun.
I'm using the Huma MOD40 Standard+ on there. I REALLY like it, because it is very effective, and I can change the length of the LDC too! The gun is very backyard friendly with the shortened LDC, and insanely quiet with the full length on there. With the short LDC the gun is only 27" long, and still only 31.5" with the long version. It can still do 50fpe, even with that 15" barrel on there. I'll likely use it in the 30-35 fpe range with this barrel though.
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I went ahead and ordered an FX slug liner A to play with. Can anyone tell me what the OD of those liners are? I'll figure it out when it arrives of course, but it would be nice if I could go ahead and gets some CF tubing on the way. I also ordered some brass rod to fit to the liner on the breech end. This should be fun, if I can make it work :D
i just put a slug liner in my .30 wildcat
the pellet liner OD is .3955
its not perfectly round. it has groove indentions, but the max is as stated
My liner arrived today, and I'm measuring the .22 liner at .317 OD, so it is a bit smaller. Now my adventure will be finding the most economical combination of CF tubes to bring the diameter to where I want it, without using pultruded CF... How's your CZ barreled gun coming along?
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I went ahead and ordered an FX slug liner A to play with. Can anyone tell me what the OD of those liners are? I'll figure it out when it arrives of course, but it would be nice if I could go ahead and gets some CF tubing on the way. I also ordered some brass rod to fit to the liner on the breech end. This should be fun, if I can make it work :D
i just put a slug liner in my .30 wildcat
the pellet liner OD is .3955
its not perfectly round. it has groove indentions, but the max is as stated
My liner arrived today, and I'm measuring the .22 liner at .317 OD, so it is a bit smaller. Now my adventure will be finding the most economical combination of CF tubes to bring the diameter to where I want it, without using pultruded CF... How's your CZ barreled gun coming along?
If the CF tube I have happens to fit in the stack of CF you end up going with, let me know and I'll get some headed your way.
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I went ahead and ordered an FX slug liner A to play with. Can anyone tell me what the OD of those liners are? I'll figure it out when it arrives of course, but it would be nice if I could go ahead and gets some CF tubing on the way. I also ordered some brass rod to fit to the liner on the breech end. This should be fun, if I can make it work :D
i just put a slug liner in my .30 wildcat
the pellet liner OD is .3955
its not perfectly round. it has groove indentions, but the max is as stated
My liner arrived today, and I'm measuring the .22 liner at .317 OD, so it is a bit smaller. Now my adventure will be finding the most economical combination of CF tubes to bring the diameter to where I want it, without using pultruded CF... How's your CZ barreled gun coming along?
If the CF tube I have happens to fit in the stack of CF you end up going with, let me know and I'll get some headed your way.
Wow, I appreciate the offer Chris! I already got the CF I need headed my way though. That liner is just a hair over 8mm, so I will have to figure out a way to open up the smaller CF tube a little. We're talking .5mm, so I should be able to do that one way or another. I'm going 8mmID x 12mmOD, up to 12mmID x 16mmOD. I made an insert that goes in the front scope rail support that makes it super rigid, and the short barrel is 16mmOD with the CF sleeve, so it will fit the new barrel as well.
Speaking of the slug liner, I was able to successfully drill and bore out the brass "thimble" to fit the liner perfectly. It took a ton of grinding down a piece of HSS, but I got it done! Thank god I was boring out brass and not steel. I'm going to let the brass thimble stick out the front of the breech a little for more support. That brass will also be 12mm OD, so I'll be able to partially sleeve it with the CF. The whole set up should be very strong and stable when I get done. I will post pictures of it all when I get the porting/o-ring grooves done on the brass and liner fixed to it. My CF won't be here until next week, so it will be a couple of days.
With the little extra space of the thimble, combined with the liner, I will end up with a functional barrel length of about 24". It will be interesting to see what the power is with the extra inches. I still haven't decided how I want to do the threading at the end of the barrel. The way I see it, I have two options. I can machine/thread a piece of brass to make an adapter that slides over the end for the LDC to fit on, or I can order one of the adapters from ebay or Donnyfl. I'm open to any other ideas on that solution too! Obviously, I don't want to throw too much metal on the end and want to keep the threaded adapter as short as possible. I'm thinking making my own will be the best solution.
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Here's a quick paint diagram that will explain what I'm saying a bit better.
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I'm getting so close to done on the FX slug liner barrel! I ended up using pultruded carbon on it. It isn't as pretty(which I don't care about), but is extremely stiff, since all the fibers run in one direction. It essentially has 8mm diameter of carbon on the barrel. This barrel is super light, and won't flex at all, I tried :D I finished the LDC adapter tonight. I decided to go with 6061 to keep the weight down on the end of the barrel. The picture has it just stuck on the barrel for checking the fitment. I still have to secure it to the barrel, but I ran out of time. Hopefully, I'll get that done tomorrow, and have some numbers soon. That will be followed by accuracy testing, when my slug sample pack arrives.
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Looks darned good Donny!
I tried the protruded. It split right down the middle from the muzzle. It was thin, but left a bad taste. I only used woven now. MUch-Much stronger. and only a little more expensive.
Looking forward to your results! ;)
Mike
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Looks darned good Donny!
I tried the protruded. It split right down the middle from the muzzle. It was thin, but left a bad taste. I only used woven now. MUch-Much stronger. and only a little more expensive.
Looking forward to your results! ;)
Mike
Thanks! Normally, I wouldn't use the pultruded, but I wanted to use as few carbon tubes as possible. Given that these are quite thick, and they fit very well, I don't think I'll have any issues. I wouldn't use pultruded with a 1mm wall, and all pultruded carbon isn't the same either. I'm effectively working with 8mm diameter of pultruded, so it would have to be something pretty drastic to split this one. There are some more "exotic" weaves I'd like to try someday, but realistically, we'd never see the benefit on an AG barrel.
I'm just proud that I got this much done. I got this little lathe used just a couple of weeks ago for $300, so I was quite happy that I was able to get the thimble and threading how I wanted. The thimble is epoxied and has set screws, so it ain't going anywhere. I intend to do the same with the LDC adapter. It is a very snug fit, and alignment should be great. More to come!
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Oh Man! I would love a Lathe. But my shop is crammed full as it is. Lots of equipment in a small 12x16ft building. Hardly room to move. LOL ;D
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Donny & Michael, what type of Epoxy did you use and any special suggestions in bonding the tubes together? Did you rough up the surfaces?
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Oh Man! I would love a Lathe. But my shop is crammed full as it is. Lots of equipment in a small 12x16ft building. Hardly room to move. LOL ;D
Michael with all the fabricating that you do you have to remove the least used piece of equipment, put it in storage and get a small bench lathe.
I have had one for 50+ years and it is my life line to all of my hobbies and business. You have to get one to compliment your mill!
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Knife, those are some killer prices! Unfortunately they won't work for my application :( Rkr, the adapters would be nice, but the OD of the soda straws are too small to fit the breech too. Throw in an o-ring groove, and it is getting pretty sketchy at that point. I had considered putting an o-ring groove on the probe, but I'm not sure how well it would hold up going through magazines all the time. I'm too lazy to mess with single shot loading. If that were not the case, I'd have an Airforce :D
John, I've been eyeing those CZ200 barrels for a long time! I've very curious to see how yours turns out. Tell Mr. David that I hope he does barrels better than he drives, hahaha! I'm just joking. He'll know probably laugh, because Mr. David and I play Gran Turismo Sport online and try to beat each other's lap times. I suspect that gun is going to be a heck of a shooter when he gets done with it!
Come on people, more input!
He has no respect for his seniors I havent won a qualifying time yet, senior citizen abuse I tell you, good job on the barrel kid. David
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Michael thats same size shop I have and I have a lathe and a mill and several other machines so maybe you need to tell us what secrets you have there. David
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Well, lets see?
Mid sized 1500 lb knee-mill, Industrial Baldor Buffer, three 2X72" high speed, variable speed belt grinders. (Made for steel grinding on giant lathes for turning ship impeller shafts). these are high end steel grinders. Not belt sanders. Tow are custom Burr Kings designed by Bob Loveless, and one Stephen Bader designed by my old friend George Herron. Both RIP! I miss these two fine Legendary Makers.
Two band saws. One wood, one steel. Two cutoff saws. One abrasive disk, one a 172 tooth carbide bladed carbide tipped high speed saw for cutting hard steel. Man, that thing will cut thru a 2x1/4 bar of jet turbine engine grade steel in under to seconds. What would take a band saw 10 minutes to cut. Holy Wow!!! :o
Heat treat oven, Fordum machine, bullet sizing station, RCBS lead furnace, industrial Drill press, and a nice bead blasting cabinet and vacuum attached along with a full vacuum system to all grinders and buffers.
Whew, No doubt I am forgetting more. Ooops, mechanical 2 ton press in addition to a hydraulic press and a full size ingersoll rand 90 gal. compressor and two shoebox compressors.
Full sized U.S. Aromers bench, filing cabinets, and two full length benches running the full length of the shop. Whew, I think I got most of it!
See, I told ya I forgot something. LOL ;D
Add to that, I still have to fit myself in there and have supplies and be able to work inthe space. GRRRR!!! Gets pretty claustrophobic sometimes.
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Knife, those are some killer prices! Unfortunately they won't work for my application :( Rkr, the adapters would be nice, but the OD of the soda straws are too small to fit the breech too. Throw in an o-ring groove, and it is getting pretty sketchy at that point. I had considered putting an o-ring groove on the probe, but I'm not sure how well it would hold up going through magazines all the time. I'm too lazy to mess with single shot loading. If that were not the case, I'd have an Airforce :D
John, I've been eyeing those CZ200 barrels for a long time! I've very curious to see how yours turns out. Tell Mr. David that I hope he does barrels better than he drives, hahaha! I'm just joking. He'll know probably laugh, because Mr. David and I play Gran Turismo Sport online and try to beat each other's lap times. I suspect that gun is going to be a heck of a shooter when he gets done with it!
Come on people, more input!
He has no respect for his seniors I havent won a qualifying time yet, senior citizen abuse I tell you, good job on the barrel kid. David
Hahaha! That's not the full story now. I had to work pretty hard to beat you on a few of them. I was going to text you the other day and tell you I finally got me one them little lathes!
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Donny & Michael, what type of Epoxy did you use and any special suggestions in bonding the tubes together? Did you rough up the surfaces?
For me, it depends on how tight the tubes fit. If it is a tight fitting tube, you'll never get it on there if you use JB Weld, but I will use it when there is a looser fitment. On the stuff that is really snug, I epoxy, because it is more forgiving with the install of the tubes when the fitment is tight. I use the slow setting stuff too. You run a high risk of ending up with a tube half way on and stuck, if you use that 5 minute stuff. Ask me how I know :-[ I will rough up the mating surfaces if I can, before hand with some 150 grit sand paper.
Oh Man! I would love a Lathe. But my shop is crammed full as it is. Lots of equipment in a small 12x16ft building. Hardly room to move. LOL ;D
I gotta say, I should have listened to Mr. David a long time ago, and got one. I've only had mine a couple of weeks and I am already wondering how I lived without it! I don't really have space for one either. I ordered a little shop fox tool stand that is rated to 700lbs, and bolted the little lathe to it(you can add wheels to them too). When I want to use it, I just move it out into the carport and go to town with it :D
I just got the new barrel installed on the gun a little while ago. I didn't have time to test accuracy, because it was dark. I did run a few over the chrony though, and it will definitely not have any issues slinging almost any slug out there in .22. I took the barrel port up a notch from what I'd usually do, since this barrel is intended for slugs and heavy pellets. It is slightly oval and measures .205 x .196. I had a few of the older NSA 30 grain slugs laying around, so I cranked the HS to see what that extra barrel length would do. The fist three shots over the chrony were 1014, 1009, 1017 fps :o I turned the HS down after that to get them around 900 fps, and put it up for the night. 69 fpe out of a Flash ain't bad at all, and I think it is safe to say it will be over 70 fpe with the 34 grain Beasts. I very pleased with the power, now I just gotta wait until I can put it on a target in the next few days!
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I need some more help guys :-[ Something is up with the new slug liner barrel that I can't figure out. I got my NSA .217 sample pack in, and was able to do some testing on a target today. I was doing my testing at 30 yards, and know slugs don't always do great at shorter ranges. I can't get a single one of the slugs to work worth a @#$*. The only thing I haven't tried yet, is upping the speed on the heavier slugs. I tried everything up to the 23 grain from 850-925fps, and they were all shotgunning. I tried the 27.5/28.5 grain from 825-900fps, also shotgunning. We're talking all over the place. All of the holes are round, no keyholes. Now the odd part is that it shoots the 25.39 Monsters(old and redesigned) great. I never got a single flyer from those.
I was thinking the tail must be wagging on the bullets, causing them to clip the LDC, or some crazy turbulence with the LDC. I put a shorter LDC on there, AND drilled out all the baffles to .312 to make darn sure it wasn't clipping. It was still shooting all over the place. I get the same results, regardless of which LDC I use. I checked the alignment, and it is dead center with the bore. Before anyone asks, no I can't try it without an LDC where I'm shooting :( I didn't do anything to the slug liner, and the transition from the thimble to the liner is as smooth as can be with no variation in diameter. Of course, it is possible there is a problem there and I just can't see it or feel it, but I don't think there is? When I push a slug though, there are no odd scuffs or anything on the slug, just the smooth twist rifling. It has some resistance, then gets pretty snug towards the end of the barrel.
One of two things is happening. I did something wrong with the barrel and I'm getting clipping some how, or it simply doesn't like those .217 slugs. I would think I would see some clipping with the Monsters too, if that was the issue, but they are shooting lights out. Is it possible that the barrel would work that much better with .218? Still, I don't think it should be shotgunning like it is with no consistency with the .217. I would think it would be more a matter of larger groups, but not 3-5" groups? I'm much more inclined think there is an error on my part somewhere. I should have some Beasts to test tomorrow, if it isn't raining. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
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What does your liner slug at? Without knowing that it's trial and error to find a right size.
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My 22 barrel hates the NSA .217 23gr slugs. All over the place like you said. I have some AVS 23gr HP/Cup base and they seem to do alright so far. I was thinking about trying some .218 slugs from NSA just to see.
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What does your liner slug at? Without knowing that it's trial and error to find a right size.
I honestly have no idea,lol. It is made using an FX 600mm slug liner A. The way I see it, I have two choices in ammo, .217 or .218. I have zero interest in casting, so ammo has to be some I can buy.
My 22 barrel hates the NSA .217 23gr slugs. All over the place like you said. I have some AVS 23gr HP/Cup base and they seem to do alright so far. I was thinking about trying some .218 slugs from NSA just to see.
Yeah, I'm a bit dumbfounded at this point. I have literally tried 10 different slugs from 17.5 grain all the way up to 30 grain. That includes BBT solid and HP. They are all .217 sized. I guess my next move is to try .218 of some sort. I just can't help but believe one of those many slugs should have at least managed some sort of group. They were flat out all over the place :( To make it worse, it will shoot any pellet I put in there better. I tried 7 different pellets from 16 grain up to 25.39 grain, and all but one grouped under 1". 3 of them grouped under 1/2", or basically a ragged hole.
I went back and tried the heavy pellets again from 925-1000fps, just to see if they needed more speed. I took one of my LDCs and opened up the baffles to .375, to insure there was no clipping. I even tried a few shots with a .30 Huggett Belita(short), and got the same results. I'm at a loss really. I should have some Beasts to try out tomorrow, if the weather holds. If I got something wrong building the barrel, I can't find what it is. The fact that it will not shoot any of the slugs I tried, makes me think I must have got something wrong though. I've never had a barrel that shot that many slugs this poorly. Loading is smooth, and there is no dragging or damage when a pellet is pushed through. The only thing I can think of is there could be too much free bore from the thimble into the barrel? Of course, it wouldn't matter if that is the problem, because there isn't anything I can do about it now. Maybe, I should just set it on fire, and walk away,lol.
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Donny, I had the same issue with the first thimble barrel I built with Hobby's help. It turned out to be a three way issue, that made it a booger to figure out.
First, the lede in the barrel was too loose, tilting the the bullets before they hit the barrel liner. Second, the jump into the rifling especially with the off center tilting was a real issue.
But last and very important, the bullets were simply sized incorrectly for the barrel. going from .217 to .218 may help a lot. However, I like to use sizing inserts from NOE and hone them out until I get accuracy. I buy two inserts @ 20 bucks total and keep honing the on I did accuracy with and keep honing until either that accuracy drops off, or the start to loose fpe due to higher friction.
This is when I switch to the unmolested insert sizer and bring it up to the size that gave the best combo.
Very often going a full .001 is far too much. I have seen drastic differences in accuracy in as little as .0002". But then again, I'm a stickler for accuracy.
Mike
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What the heck is with the tiny print? GRRRRR!!!
Mike
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Donny, I had the same issue with the first thimble barrel I built with Hobby's help. It turned out to be a three way issue, that made it a booger to figure out.
First, the lede in the barrel was too loose, tilting the the bullets before they hit the barrel liner. Second, the jump into the rifling especially with the off center tilting was a real issue.
But last and very important, the bullets were simply sized incorrectly for the barrel. going from .217 to .218 may help a lot. However, I like to use sizing inserts from NOE and hone them out until I get accuracy. I buy two inserts @ 20 bucks total and keep honing the on I did accuracy with and keep honing until either that accuracy drops off, or the start to loose fpe due to higher friction.
This is when I switch to the unmolested insert sizer and bring it up to the size that gave the best combo.
Very often going a full .001 is far too much. I have seen drastic differences in accuracy in as little as .0002". But then again, I'm a stickler for accuracy.
Mike
What Mike says. With bullets the size is much more critical than with pellets. Slug you barrel and you'll get a good starting point for bullet size. Too large bullets deform and too small tend to enter and exit a bit lopsided.
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Donny, you mentioned that you oculdn' test at the time as it got dark outside.
I have leaned to use night time for the most important testing. I mounged a 1200 lumen out the front, tight spot beam and mounted it on the gun.
this allows me to see the full trajectory thru the scope as the cast bullets shine like tracers in the bright beam. Any wagging or spiraling is instantly seen and really helps in diagnosing any issues.
Last night, I spent all my time converting the RS II to a left hand action. I am left eye dominate, and shoot ambi, bout the best accuracy is left eyes.
That, and Author is kill'n my right wrist crossing over my chest and having to use mostly wrist movement to cock the heavy two springs system.
Using the side lever on the left hand of the action, I am able to use my arm and shoulder muscles to cock the gun rather than just the rist. So much smoother and much faster for single loading as I can now hold the action open with the left hand with the AG still shouldered, and insert a bullet with my right hand. Can't wait to get a .22 RS magazine in order to mod it for the long bullets I am shooting. 8)
Mike
Mike
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Thanks for the input Mike! I ordered a .218 sample pack from NSA to see if that gets me more in the ballpark. How much oversized was the leade you did? I didn't do the leade of the thimble, until I had the slug liner fixed to it, so I would have less chance of drastic changes going from the thimble to the liner. I also put a slight taper on the number 2 bit I used, and took it in until it just started touching the liner, so the transition should be smooth. I couldn't go any smaller on the leade, or the probe wouldn't fit in it. Of course, I could always turn down the probe a hair, if I decide to attempt this again. The problem certainly could be in the thimble area though. If that is the case, I'm kinda stuck with what I have, and I may just have to mark this barrel as a pellet only barrel :(
Donny, I had the same issue with the first thimble barrel I built with Hobby's help. It turned out to be a three way issue, that made it a booger to figure out.
First, the lede in the barrel was too loose, tilting the the bullets before they hit the barrel liner. Second, the jump into the rifling especially with the off center tilting was a real issue.
But last and very important, the bullets were simply sized incorrectly for the barrel. going from .217 to .218 may help a lot. However, I like to use sizing inserts from NOE and hone them out until I get accuracy. I buy two inserts @ 20 bucks total and keep honing the on I did accuracy with and keep honing until either that accuracy drops off, or the start to loose fpe due to higher friction.
This is when I switch to the unmolested insert sizer and bring it up to the size that gave the best combo.
Very often going a full .001 is far too much. I have seen drastic differences in accuracy in as little as .0002". But then again, I'm a stickler for accuracy.
Mike
What Mike says. With bullets the size is much more critical than with pellets. Slug you barrel and you'll get a good starting point for bullet size. Too large bullets deform and too small tend to enter and exit a bit lopsided.
I'm really hoping that I can get somewhere with the .218 slugs when they show up. What is the best method to slug a barrel? I've never done that, so any info you can offer would help for sure.
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Donny, the lede was a bit oversized. It was a test Piece Daniel did for our guns. Just one more thing to earn. ;)
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Donny, the lede was a bit oversized. It was a test Piece Daniel did for our guns. Just one more thing to earn. ;)
Gotcha. I wouldn't think a .221 lead would be too much on mine, would you? Of course, I could have messed it up as well,lol.
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All you need to do is push a slug through the barrel and then measure the lands/grooves on the slug. Pretty easy :D bummer that there not working. I planned on doing something similar with a M10 .22 but holding off for now
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All you need to do is push a slug through the barrel and then measure the lands/grooves on the slug. Pretty easy :D bummer that there not working. I planned on doing something similar with a M10 .22 but holding off for now
A slightly oversize slug to ensure that it touches the bottom of the rifling. Tapping a slug with hammer usually expands it enough.
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Donny I'm anxious to see how the .218 sized slugs do for you. If you get some decent results with the .218's I'm going to try some too and see what happens. Good luck.
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All you need to do is push a slug through the barrel and then measure the lands/grooves on the slug. Pretty easy :D bummer that there not working. I planned on doing something similar with a M10 .22 but holding off for now
Don't let my results discourage you! There's a good chance I got something wrong in the process. I mean, this is the first time I've tried this, and it was on a new to me used mini lathe that I have very little time on. I've got some Beasts that are supposed to show up today that I want to try. After that, I'll pull the barrel and slug it and see what I'm getting.
Donny I'm anxious to see how the .218 sized slugs do for you. If you get some decent results with the .218's I'm going to try some too and see what happens. Good luck.
Hopefully, I'll have the answer next week on how they do. If they don't work, I may try it again, now that I know a little more about what I'm dealing with. I'm determined to have a gun that shoots slugs well, one way or another. I've seen so many good results with the slug liners in .22, which is what leads me to think I must have gotten something a bit off. Most of the good results I've seen have been with the .217, but I've also seem some state that the barrels are meant to work with .218? Time will tell...
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If any of you guys have an FX .22 that you could measure the leade diameter and distance to the actual liner, I would certain appreciate the input!
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Hopefully you can get it figured out! I'm just really wanting to try the .22 TJ barrels. I might wait until I get my .22 TJ raptor mini and see what it's specs are at and then order the same barrel.
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Hopefully you can get it figured out! I'm just really wanting to try the .22 TJ barrels. I might wait until I get my .22 TJ raptor mini and see what it's specs are at and then order the same barrel.
I'm curious about that one too, as far as the barrel specs are concerned...
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My Beasts finally showed up today, but it was after dark, so no target time with them yet. Hopefully, the rain will hold off tomorrow so I can put them on a target. I'm thinking it will probably do well with them.
I did send a few over the chrony, and WOW! I'm pretty sure this might be the "world record" for power out of a .22 Flashpup. At full tilt it hit 989 fps with the 33.95 grain Beasts for 73.75 fpe :o I had to see,lol. I backed it down after that to try and get a good 10 shot power tune. It managed 10 shots averaging 917 fps with an ES of 27. So, a 10 shot 63 fpe tune out of a gun with 165 cc air cylinder ain't too shabby. I will admit, that was on a 3100 psi fill, which isn't something I would do very often. Of course, the odds of even needing 10 shots for anything I'd be hunting at that power are next to none. It is still fun to know what it can do just the same.
Even if it doesn't like the .218 slugs, it won't be a total bust, since it does seem to like most pellets. We'll know about the .218 by the end of next week I hope.
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Put a good strong LED light on that Gun Donny. Night time is the right time for testing!
Mike
www.ebay.com/itm/Convoy-C8-Black-7135-8-Xpl-Hi-1100Lm-Led-Tactical-Flashlight-Memory-Function-Pr-/123972248102?var=&hash=item1cdd526226 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Convoy-C8-Black-7135-8-Xpl-Hi-1100Lm-Led-Tactical-Flashlight-Memory-Function-Pr-/123972248102?var=&hash=item1cdd526226)
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I got one of these lights , I see they have a good deal on them now, it lights up the yard real nice.
https://www.olightstore.com/pl-mini-2.html (https://www.olightstore.com/pl-mini-2.html)
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Put a good strong LED light on that Gun Donny. Night time is the right time for testing!
Mike
www.ebay.com/itm/Convoy-C8-Black-7135-8-Xpl-Hi-1100Lm-Led-Tactical-Flashlight-Memory-Function-Pr-/123972248102?var=&hash=item1cdd526226 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Convoy-C8-Black-7135-8-Xpl-Hi-1100Lm-Led-Tactical-Flashlight-Memory-Function-Pr-/123972248102?var=&hash=item1cdd526226)
I got one of these lights , I see they have a good deal on them now, it lights up the yard real nice.
https://www.olightstore.com/pl-mini-2.html (https://www.olightstore.com/pl-mini-2.html)
I hear you guys on that! I've got a great light for that. I have an awesome green LED light that the critters don't even see, and I can see well past any distance I'd take a shot at. I have sat in my yard and watched deer with it, and they don't eve know they're lit up. I'm not gonna shoot a deer with my .22 though, and not with anything in my yard. I live in city limits, and it just seems like cheating. Pigs in south GA are a whole other story though! I hope to be adding to the Hunting Gate in the next couple of weeks, if everything goes as planned ;)
Those are some awesome lights you guys linked! I hear those little olights are pretty cool. They've got a new one now that is double the power I think.
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I got to do a little testing with the 34 grain Beasts, and I was right, It loves them! They were same hole accurate anywhere from 900-950fps, so they worked wonderfully at the 915-920 fps tune. I only tested at 30 yards, and it has been very windy today, but those heavy .22 Beasts didn't seem to care that much. The only down side is they don't quite fit the magazine. It wouldn't take much to fix that, since I only need about 1/2 mm extra depth, and there's plenty of material to work with if I want to take a little material off the magazine. At least, I know this barrel can shoot pretty much any heavy pellet well, and even some of the mid weight ones well too.
Of course, all this kinda makes it that much more frustrating that it didn't like the .217 slugs. I'm really hoping it will wake up with the .218 slugs. If not, it will still sling the heavy pellets very accurately.
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I have O lights,l Fenix, Jet Beam and more. But the low cost Convoys from simao on Aliexpress and the Astrolux with the stornger driver on bangood are unreal, and have a much tighter beam. (Helps with night vision. At only less than 30 buck, you cant go wrong for a gun light. (Ordered it with the newer SST40 high intensity LED. :D
I do have a very high lumen Eag-tac with an 35 HXP led has a green lens cover, and it cost a LOT more, but the Convoy blows and the Astrolux blows it away with the simple XPL Hi, Factory decomed led And deep reflector. Man, it is a laser! ;D
Not good for woods walking for light though. Very tight beam. Perfect on the gun. It is much easier on the night vision not haveing the side of your shooting area and gun lit up. ;)
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I'm looking forward to her how the .218's do for you Donny!
Fingers Crossed. ;)
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Yep, it is amazing what you can get in a light nowadays! The one I use is an Armytek Predator with a green LED. It has a big reflector with a very tight spot. I get a clear scope picture even at 150 yards with it, so it has more throw than I'll be using. I usually use it on the second or third power level, and it goes to 5 :D
I got my fingers crossed on the .218 as well. I'm more interested in slugs for long distance shooting in the 35-45fpe range. I can thump the tougher critters at 50 and under with the Monsters or Beasts if need be. If the .218 doesn't work, I have a backup liner that I can give it another go with. It sure would be nice, if I didn't have to do that though. I'm not gonna lie, have the fun to me is the project, haha.
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Get a prod mag. It fits the jsb 34 beasts perfectly. You have to open your breech up a tad, but worth it IMO.
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Get a prod mag. It fits the jsb 34 beasts perfectly. You have to open your breech up a tad, but worth it IMO.
I already fixed it. I slapped the face of the magazine on piece of 1" derlin rod(just for mounting it), then stuck it in my lathe. I turned a pellet width groove on the inside of the face a few thousandths deep, and that's all it took. It will now hold the Beasts :D
It will be a few days, before I can test the .218 slugs. I got a last minute pig hunt that popped up, so that takes priority for this weekend! I have my fingers crossed that I will be adding a post to the hunting gate, this weekend, if everything works out ;) I should be able to get the .218 slugs tested by next weekend though.
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I haven't updated this is a few days, because I was waiting on time to test the .218 slugs. I'll just start by saying I was unable to get the barrel to work with any slugs, including H&N. I also suspect my problem is with the leade I did on my barrel that I made with the 600mm slug liner. I think there is just too much room for the slugs to move around before they actually get to the rifling, which is making them inconsistent. I believe you guys mentioned that earlier in the thread :-[ Fortunately, that barrel loves heavy pellets, and some middle weight ones too, so it isn't a total loss. More importantly, it has been a learning experience!
All of that above being said, I tried again with a 500mm slug liner, and got some results! I was far more careful with the leade in, and it pretty much confirms my mistake on the first attempt. I was able to get some pretty solid groups with a few different weight slugs. I did have better luck with the H&N slugs in .217 and .218 than I did with the NSA slugs. I think a lot of that comes down to finding the right speed, and I'm sure the NSAs would do fine if I find the right speed they like. I just haven't had the time to go through all of the weights and speed changes to find the sweet spot for them all. Man, figuring that out is a time and air user :o I found that it likes the .218 21 grain slugs, but works well in .217 with the heavier stuff.
The only downside is I couldn't get any of them to work at really high power(55+ fpe). I found my best groups happened with the 30 grain H&N .217 slugs at 880 fps. They were all right through the same hole, and no flyers! As soon as I started upping the speed, the groups started opening up. I didn't have time to take pictures and document it all as I'd have liked, but at least I'm finding the zone now. I'll have to wait until I have a whole day, and a fresh air supply to further go down that rabbit hole. I'm finding that the slugs are very particular about what speed they work well at. 25 fps can be the difference between same hole or 1" groups at 40 yards! I also feel like a slight change in twist could make all the difference too. Just for the record, the 600mm liner is 1:15.5, but the 500mm is 1:16. I think the 700mm is 1:15, but man that would be a really long barrel.
Anywho, I just thought I would give a little update. I wouldn't want anyone to take my results to the bank, as I'm still learning what works when adapting the slug liner to a barrel for a non FX gun. I think it is a very viable solution for many guns, assuming great care is taken with the thimble/leade in. I would love to see what some of you more experienced folks could do with a liner!
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Donny thanks for the up date you are doing a great job in explaining step by step the changes and results. I find it most interesting. Did you slug the barrels and if so what are the sizes? What type of Epoxy would you recommend in bonding the CF tube to the liner? Do you have the dimensions of the thimble and leade?
Bob
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donny, I had a drastic improvement when I changed t a 1-20 twist. Not supposed to work, but did. In a BIG way.
I need to check again, but I think FX learned the same thing in the B liners. I Will look it up again.
My Raptor Mini has a pellet TJ's in it at 1-18, and it too is shot gunning with slugs, but dead accurate with pellets. GRRRRR+1.
I don't shoot pellets!
I'm trying to figure out how to fit the Brownell barrel to the Mini now. biggest issue is I have no way to attach the threaded piece to the front of the barrel in order to use an ldc. It is also part of the tensioning of the barrel. I cannot shoot at home without the DDDC due to my Wife's illness. She has to sleep a lot. Night and day.
Very dissapointed at the moment. But I will get it figured out.
Mike
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donny, I had a drastic improvement when I changed t a 1-20 twist. Not supposed to work, but did. In a BIG way.
I need to check again, but I think FX learned the same thing in the B liners. I Will look it up again.
My Raptor Mini has a pellet TJ's in it at 1-18, and it too is shot gunning with slugs, but dead accurate with pellets. GRRRRR+1.
I don't shoot pellets!
I'm trying to figure out how to fit the Brownell barrel to the Mini now. biggest issue is I have no way to attach the threaded piece to the front of the barrel in order to use an ldc. It is also part of the tensioning of the barrel. I cannot shoot at home without the DDDC due to my Wife's illness. She has to sleep a lot. Night and day.
Very dissapointed at the moment. But I will get it figured out.
Mike
How about one of these https://www.ebay.com/itm/SILENCER-ADAPTOR-1-2-UNF-Male-Male-Air-Arms-S510-TX200-HC-Falcon-Airgun-Rifle-St/351099079900?hash=item51bf22ccdc:g:U1EAAOSw5cNYjL9j (https://www.ebay.com/itm/SILENCER-ADAPTOR-1-2-UNF-Male-Male-Air-Arms-S510-TX200-HC-Falcon-Airgun-Rifle-St/351099079900?hash=item51bf22ccdc:g:U1EAAOSw5cNYjL9j)
Drill through with 8mm bit and use silver solder to attach.
Alternatively if those threads don't match - get a grub screw with correct threads, drill through and solder on.
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Thanks Ric, sadly, it has big red letters under it here. "Does Not Ship to the US". GRRRR!!! >:(
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If that threaded adapter would work, why not just use a 1/2x20 bolt with the center drilled out? Might not be as pretty but function over form for this guy every time.
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Thread the barrel liner. Make a nut with 5/16-28 inside 1/2-20 outside with a flat shoulder for taking a wrench.
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Donny thanks for the up date you are doing a great job in explaining step by step the changes and results. I find it most interesting. Did you slug the barrels and if so what are the sizes? What type of Epoxy would you recommend in bonding the CF tube to the liner? Do you have the dimensions of the thimble and leade?
Bob
I was going to, but decided that it wouldn't do me any good really, because I'm not going to be sizing any ammo. I will try it with the 500mm barrel, since I don't have it in the gun right now. I don't know how well I'll be able to measure the slug, but I'll give it a try in the next day or two. I have .217 and .218 to pick from, and from many different makers now. I'm just experimenting to see what works :D
The thimble will depend on what gun it is going into. For me, I had to make it .469 OD to fit the breech of the Flashpup just right. I made it as large as possible, but the factory barrel was .466 OD, and about 1.9" in length. I let the thimble extend outside the breech just a little on the new liner barrel at 2.2", and it is overlapped with the 12mm ID carbon tube. It is kinda interlocked with the liner/carbon/thimble/more carbon. That was my way of making sure it was as stiff as possible, without having a weak spot at the breech exit.
For my .22, I made the leade .221". Where I messed up with the first attempt was going in too far with that .221(allowing the slug to wobble prior to the liner), and the transition to the liner wasn't as smooth as it should have been I think. On the second attempt that is working better, I took that .221 bit(#2 cobalt bit), and put a very slight taper on the last 1/4" of the bit so it would have a smooth transition. I also only took it as far past the barrel port as I had to for smooth loading. Basically, about a 30 grain slug's length past the barrel port, maybe slightly less.
I like to use JB Weld when I can, BUT that's a tough thing to use on very tight fitting parts, because you'll end up with the carbon about half way down the barrel and stuck if you aren't careful,lol. On the tight stuff, which most of it is on these two I did, I used the Devcon 2 ton epoxy(regular curing, not fast curing). It spreads in between the parts easier, and fills the smaller gaps better. I did use JB Weld on the T6 LDC adapter on the end though, as well as set screws. I used the epoxy on the thimble and flush 4-40 set screws for good measure. It ain't gonna come apart, that's for sure!
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donny, I had a drastic improvement when I changed t a 1-20 twist. Not supposed to work, but did. In a BIG way.
I need to check again, but I think FX learned the same thing in the B liners. I Will look it up again.
My Raptor Mini has a pellet TJ's in it at 1-18, and it too is shot gunning with slugs, but dead accurate with pellets. GRRRRR+1.
I don't shoot pellets!
I'm trying to figure out how to fit the Brownell barrel to the Mini now. biggest issue is I have no way to attach the threaded piece to the front of the barrel in order to use an ldc. It is also part of the tensioning of the barrel. I cannot shoot at home without the DDDC due to my Wife's illness. She has to sleep a lot. Night and day.
Very dissapointed at the moment. But I will get it figured out.
Mike
Do you have picture of the end where the shroud is tensioned? I'm trying to picture it in my head, but I don't remember how those are tensioned right now...
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If that threaded adapter would work, why not just use a 1/2x20 bolt with the center drilled out? Might not be as pretty but function over form for this guy every time.
Grub screw is better if you do not have a lathe as it will center the drill bit.
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I attempted to slug the 500mm slug liner, and my results were a bit smaller than I anticipated. I got .214/.215. It is kind of hard, since there aren't exactly defined rifling marks with the FX barrel. It is obvious on the slug that it is effectively sizing down the entire slug a bit. No part of a pushed through .217 slug is untouched, with the exception of the shoulder forward. That's what my results were, but I could have done it wrong too. It does take some pretty good force to push through the choke.
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I know you don't want to do any sizing but I find sizing can make a world of a difference. I'm sizing 17.5 NSAs to .215 and there as accurate as I can shoot at 30yds with my Leshiy with a red dot on top. Unsized they were quite a bit spread out and there at .2165 out of the box.
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I know you don't want to do any sizing but I find sizing can make a world of a difference. I'm sizing 17.5 NSAs to .215 and there as accurate as I can shoot at 30yds with my Leshiy with a red dot on top. Unsized they were quite a bit spread out and there at .2165 out of the box.
That is exactly the measurement I got on the NSA slugs when I measured them too. That does make me feel a little better about the measurements I got when I slugged the barrel. I may try sizing some down the road, but I don't really have time to play with that right now. Christmas has me too dang busy :(