GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Ribbonstone on June 08, 2019, 12:53:23 AM
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I really tried to like Bullpups...but the evidence/experience has been against the breed.
PLUS:
1.Accuracy has been every bit as good from a bench as "traditional"rifles.
2.The are short in length for afull length barreled CP.
NEUTRAL:
3. Try as much as I can, there is NO BONUS POINTS fo being a bullpup. Cannot see how it shoots any better (smAller groups) or any faster than a tradtional stocked air rifle of trhe same make.
4.Cannot say it's better or worse...pretty much the same velocity/enery/accuracy as the "tradtional" version of the bull pup.
5. If there is an increase in performance frombullpup to treadationaly stocking, it totally escapes my critial/directed attention.
NEGATIVE:
6. Poor balance.both front to back and top to bottom. It's really the high vertical profile that makes them want to tip over mopre than the back-to-front balace.
7. Really high Scope sight line over borwe line scope mounting.
8. Away from a sandbagged bench (or a bi-pod) Bullpups handling leaves me wishing for somthing a little more user friendly.
Just not seeing the Bullpup "specialness"....are just ill balanced and "stumpy".
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Got the HAtsan Flashpup box out...and the brown cardboard shipping box...am packing it up, lots of bubble packing, and sealing it up (keeping in mind that the UPS/FedEWX/etc. guys seem to be rather rought on packages).
Just too much time/effort/ examples at home of "traditonal"airguns. Bullpupishness would grow on you (...like a fungus?...) if all you shot were bullpups.
HAve yet to see where bullpuips are some bonus-design or "genetically" better....are just "stumpy".
YES..I could get use to them...if tyhaty was all I shot.Coulfd aslso get use (from experence) to haviong one good eye...or one good arm...and even shooting with both problems (which would be worng side/.wrong eyed).
But for all I can tell ...Just for the compactness of a bull pup....
NO.
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Pretty much agree. I don’t like the looks of them either. BUT I do like to be able to keep shooting. And with two blown out shoulders, I just can’t hold a long gun very well. Except for hunting, I can always find a temp rest to shoot from. But to just take a walk and do a little plinking or hunting, the bull pup has made that possible again.
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When I first saw a bullpup (Steyr AUG), I thought "cool!" - but later thoughts and analysis arrived at the negatives as presented by Ribbonstone. I much prefer a standard rifle.
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Right there with ya Ribbs....
Along with all you said.. I'm a long hair. I'm not into my hair being pulled like some may be. Way too much going on right next to my face,ear and hair.
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My fist PCPs were the BullBoss in 22 and 25.
The only arguments FOR a bullpup are the "looks cool" factor and the short overall length of the rifle.
For dense wood hunting (stalking or stationary) the short rifle length can be a benefit.
A good carbine however could provide similar benefits.
I am in agreement with all pros and cons listed.
Found NO performance difference (FPE or accuracy) when compared with its classic longer siblings (AT44 series in my case).
The weight balance (front/back), top heaviness, and large optical to bore separation are all NOT as good as the normal rifle versions.
I now have several normal AT44 rifles and feel they are more comfortable to shoot than the bullpup versions.
I will be keeping my BullBosses for the compactness and "looks cool" reasons and the convenience that all my AT44 based rifles have (mostly) the same interchangeable parts.
But... I WON'T be buying any more bullpups.
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Bullpups are a particular design that meets certain needs. IIRC, they were intended originally for a super-compact close-combat design that keeps the vast majority of mass close to the body, making them more "strength-agnostic", IE: no matter your physical conditioning, build, or level of incapacity, they offered a full length barrel in a short size so full-power shots could be delivered in tight quarters with the weapon held close so the weight wasn't overly-far from the body. You can also swing across a zone while keep things close to the body without as much exposure. Since less weight is way out in front, the traversing action is faster.
IE: they're great for urban assault/defense, close-quarters fights, and for use by those without the physical ability to easily handle rifle-based platforms. This also means that for those looking to use full-power in dense underbrush (such as my local woods here in VA) they're mighty fine. For indoor pesting operations where you may be roving a large building with obstructions everywhere, they also excel. But for other evolutions, like long-range hunting/pesting across open spaces or competition, I'd think a conventional rifle layout would be far more preferable.
My personal views are that the configuration is just another format for a tool, much like a hypoid-drive 7 1/4" skilsaw versus a conventional Skilsaw. They fill the same role but the former has much more torque but is less maneuverable. Hammers are another similar item; perhaps an even better example. Imagine two 20 ounce hammers; one has the waffle-face and a nearly-straight claw. This is a framing hammer- for rough framing, hanging joists, cripples, and buttress joints. IE: surfaces that will eventually be covered in sheetrock or other finished surfaces. The other has a smooth-milled face and a similar claw- this is a general-purpose ripping hammer. It doesn't excel at framing but the smooth face is unlikely to mar a surface, which means it is better suited to deck-building or other tasks where a waffle-imprint for an imperfect strike would be unsightly, or in roles where the sheer mass can be negated by "choking up" for more deft hammering tasks (IE: trim/cabinetry)
A bullpup is nothing more than a different configuration of parts to make a rifle. Now here's a funny thing: I find that bullpups don't bother me, but most bottle-guns do.
Now- as good as bullpups are for tighter quarters, a pistol is even better- provided you're not looking for a full length barrel. And carbines tend to be more compact rifles, usually with a slightly shorter barrel and smaller size overall. A monkey gibbon gorilla guy like me with long arms can find some carbines really cramp my style. LOL, in my neck of the woods, as good as the rifles are for tree-rats, my PP700 pistol is just simply even better.
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Bull pups have only one type of use to me... and make very little sense at all in an air rifle...
in close quarters urban or dense growth I would still prefer something like the HK MP5 to a pup... the use I see for something like a P90 is as a bodyguard/Secret Service in a car... that is it...
If you like the looks of a pup for an air rifle..well that is fine... just not for me...I like my air rifles to look like an air rifle... and have always liked carbines...balance function everything...
pups just hamstring to many things in an air rifle... and say you are up at 200 fpe... do you really want your eyes that close to a possible blow open or blown breech o-ring..?
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Lol ... "The lets bash bullpups thread"
Agree on whats been said ... but DON'T agree totally with the bashing because of whats been omitted from the conversation.
Deep woods hiking where the compactness is FAR easier to carry and maneuver in tight quarters. Able to be carried nearly concealed or in a suited long back back
Really like a "Pup" for the short length because your not waving around a long barrel when some hunting situations & quarry hunted are very motion sensitive. Turkeys, some squirrel species etc ....
Lol ... As you were ;D
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Bullpups look sexy !!!!
I love the compact looks of bullpups, but I also agree on the shortcomings.
I had my bullpup stage, I had a bunch of them but I don't anymore.
And it really makes me laugh when it's mentioned "better for hunting in dense forest ".......well I can tell you, if it's so dense that you can't swing a full sized rifle then you won't get a shot that's longer then single digit yardage either, so that reason goes down the drain :) :)
Pups advantage for me is in the ability to carry them on a one point sling for when you need both hands to navigate, but I can do the same with a mini carbine and they weight much less because of the shorter barrel and air reservoir and I can get my scopes much closer to the bore,
Yep I had a bunch of Pups, ........no more, still I would love to buy an Edgun R5M .25 :) :) :)
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have yall anti-bullpup guys even ever shot a Taipan veteran ?
just a warning..... the hook is very sharp and it will get you 8)
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have yall anti-bullpup guys even ever shot a Taipan veteran ?
just a warning..... the hook is very sharp and it will get you 8)
I prefer the midship cocking lever of the FX Wildcat and the Vulcan, but the Taipans sure do hold their own against any and all comers.
I've never been put off or inconvenienced by scope height on a pup any more than a shooting a rifle set up for field target use.
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8) I have both, each has it's use
got a long HW110 fac really long and a Kozak compact, it gets shot the most
next to buy is a Zbroia Sapsan ;D
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have yall anti-bullpup guys even ever shot a Taipan veteran ?
just a warning..... the hook is very sharp and it will get you 8)
Taipan Veteran was I gun I seriously considered,
......and I also had already planned to move the stock backwards to make it into a Carbine, would be easy and I believe it would make it a better rifle,....for me at least :) :)
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Not that I give up easy.
It's really hard to present the difference in handling/balance in just pictures...its one of those things you just have to feel for yourself.
None the less, will make the attempt.
Will label "A" the front to back balance point.
Will label "B" as the vertical balance point.
Just picked a Gamo Urban as the "trandtional" rifle.
With the big scope/no counter weight of a bi-pod.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48025369893_3a1e1ed84d.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gaQzhR)DSCN1988 (https://flic.kr/p/2gaQzhR) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
With a smaller/lighter scope and a bi-pod as counter weight. Scope mounted @@@ kow as possibler on a bullpup format...have to squah my cheep a little to line up.:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48025341126_d38d9af222.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gaQqJS)DSCN1986 (https://flic.kr/p/2gaQqJS) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
Which doesn't look like a whole bunch of change between A and B...but enough to notice, and enough in the right direction....you can certainly feel it in your hands.
Getting A and B as close together as possible and close to the middle of where your hands would normally grip the forefend and pistol grip make for a lively rifle....unbalanced, can shoot them well from a rest, but they tend to "bite you" off hand catch-as-catch can field shooting.
Still haved the problem of "short hands" (the distance between where trhe hands pretty much have to hold the rifle).
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48025479731_65f27b0148.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gaR8WB)DSCN1986 (https://flic.kr/p/2gaR8WB) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
Noi matter how you look at it, the balance point and the distance between supporting features (in this case hands) DOES have a lot to do with how well you can shoot an airgun away from a bench/bags/bi-pod.
Does it matter if you are shooting from a bench with bags, clamp rest, or bipod?
Yeah...I think it does. Unless limiting good performance to only to artificial rest shooting,
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Because my airguns exist primarily as hunters, I do find bullpups valuable because of their maneuverability. And although regular carbines are also maneuverable, the bullpup doesn’t sacrifice the benefits of extra barrel length like a carbine does.
6-12 inches makes a huge difference as to moving a rifle from one vantage point to another with minimal movement, sound, and visual displacement.
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I really tried to like Bullpups...but the evidence/experience has been against the breed.
PLUS:
1.Accuracy has been every bit as good from a bench as "traditional"rifles.
2.The are short in length for afull length barreled CP.
NEUTRAL:
3. Try as much as I can, there is NO BONUS POINTS fo being a bullpup. Cannot see how it shoots any better (smAller groups) or any faster than a tradtional stocked air rifle of trhe same make.
4.Cannot say it's better or worse...pretty much the same velocity/enery/accuracy as the "tradtional" version of the bull pup.
5. If there is an increase in performance frombullpup to treadationaly stocking, it totally escapes my critial/directed attention.
NEGATIVE:
6. Poor balance.both front to back and top to bottom. It's really the high vertical profile that makes them want to tip over mopre than the back-to-front balace.
7. Really high Scope sight line over borwe line scope mounting.
8. Away from a sandbagged bench (or a bi-pod) Bullpups handling leaves me wishing for somthing a little more user friendly.
Just not seeing the Bullpup "specialness"....are just ill balanced and "stumpy".
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Got the HAtsan Flashpup box out...and the brown cardboard shipping box...am packing it up, lots of bubble packing, and sealing it up (keeping in mind that the UPS/FedEWX/etc. guys seem to be rather rought on packages).
Just too much time/effort/ examples at home of "traditonal"airguns. Bullpupishness would grow on you (...like a fungus?...) if all you shot were bullpups.
HAve yet to see where bullpuips are some bonus-design or "genetically" better....are just "stumpy".
YES..I could get use to them...if tyhaty was all I shot.Coulfd aslso get use (from experence) to haviong one good eye...or one good arm...and even shooting with both problems (which would be worng side/.wrong eyed).
But for all I can tell ...Just for the compactness of a bull pup....
NO.
I like the traditional rifles best and the one bullpup I got is the Flashpup. Primarily for walking through more hevaily wooded areas. For me that would maybe be the one benefit of the bullpup style gun. Also very easy to throw in a trunk of even a compact car. It will be in rotation for me in my woods walking this year and then I'll be able to determine if that portability is an advantage or not.
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Bullpupishness is not the only way to get shorter and lighter.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47939417916_b07b43da77.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2g3f3Ld)DSCN1928 (https://flic.kr/p/2g3f3Ld) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
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So if light/short/maneuverable is a goal...can do it without the "puppy".
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Ribbs,
Hatsan Gladius with a Hawke w/front AO was my first pcp. That was my last Hatsan and front AO scope I will own. >:(
Not all bull pups are created equal. Every man gets delight from his own desires, thank God we have many choices to choose from
I wish you long life and many hours of enjoyment with your collection :D
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The Veteran shoots very well off bench and bags. I cannot shoot them well otherwise. I love bull-pups, but off-hand...you better be behind me. But, darn, off the bags, "on the next page" accurate.
Now that I think about it, its been so long since I have shot anything offhand except a pellet pistol. I may not be worth a carp even with a long gun now.
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Bullpupishness is not the only way to get shorter and lighter.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47939417916_b07b43da77.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2g3f3Ld)DSCN1928 (https://flic.kr/p/2g3f3Ld) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
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So if light/short/maneuverable is a goal...can do it without the "puppy".
Ah, but you can’t do it without sacrificing some power or efficiency, because you have to make up for the longer stock with a shorter barrel.
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have yall anti-bullpup guys even ever shot a Taipan veteran ?
just a warning..... the hook is very sharp and it will get you 8)
+1 John. Honestly, I don’t care for the bullpup design in general but where else am I going to find a gun for the price that’s built like a tank, very accurate out of the box, a superb trigger, and doesn’t break down? I want to shoot, not tinker. Yes, it takes a little getting used to, but as another member here said...every time you pull the trigger it brings a smile to your face. However, if Taipan built a conventional rifle, I would jump on it. JMO
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Should I reiterate what said in my first post?
Full-length barrel in compact package. Good for offhand shooting with the gun held in close to the body. Locations? Think tree-stands. Tight quarters- not just dense forest but dense forest with heavy underbrush. A good example is new-growth woods here in VA where creepers and waist-to-head high plants (not just trees) are all you really see. I could see them being very effective in a cherry-picker or bucket truck doing pest control-less gun overhanging the edge of a long drop, too. I had to shoot a lot out of bucket-trucks during my stint in pest control- never was fond of the overhang with either a pumper or springer... though I also had to shoot pigeons suspended from a 5-point harness 30 feet above the CA Aqueduct in Morgan Hill underneath an overpass- and I would have given several bodyparts for a bullpup at that time!
A carbine by definition is typically a shortened rifle, so while a carbine is great at mobility, the bullpup is even better if you want a full length barrel. Some bullpups are horrible designs. The Hatsans are just top-heavy and quite ugly- despite being very functional tools. The Taipain and EdGuns are the opposite end of that spectrum.
Ultimately, bullpups have some functionality advatages over standard rifles, just as rifles have some over bullpups. I think ultimately, it's a choice much like wearing shorty boots versus mid-calf boots. Each has advantages.
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I've recently started using a bullpup. I like the way it handles. Half way between a pistol and rifle. Also, I can have a full length barrel without requiring a super long hard case. That makes for a more compact/efficient package and easier transport.
There is no scope in the way of the loading port so they are very easy to single load. My standard configuration scoped PCPs are awkward to single load so I almost always use magazines with them.
For precision shooting, balance is nice in the sitting and kneeling positions.
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If it's brushy/close quarter conditions (where shortness is a plus) why would you need long range power? If it's open country where long range is the rule of the day,why would you need a short stumpy rifle?
I'll give you that it's a "style" issue...you like 'em or you don't. Setting aside the "style" issue (and I'll freely admit, it could look like a dog-$)((# so long as it performs.... I can't see where short-n-stumpy is a plus out in the wide open areas (bullpup or carbine)....or where long rifles/long range power is a plus in the "thick nasty".
But maybe you can talk me into it.....even though it seems counterintuitive, I'll consider the argument for a long range open country bullpup.
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I love my Edgun R5 .30 standard! Until you've shot one you can't possibly understand. JMHO.
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Ok...lets assume I'll never know.
But I'll ask you. If you added 4" of butt pad and moved the pistol grip and trigger back 4", how would it be less amazing?
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Have the Flashpup in .25 and while it ticks the boxes for lightweight and maneuverable, that rear bolt leaves some to be desired. If they'd used the side lever action like my Galatian has and mounted it in the middle (someone already mentioned the Wildcat), the rifle would be easier and more fun to shoot and being 6 pounds lighter than the above mentioned Galatian doesn't hurt one bit.
Have a bipod if i want to shoot from the bench, but for now it has a Vism pistol grip/weapons light mounted on the front that seems to balance things out better for offhand night critter shooting and I'm well past any possible return so I'll just keep playing with it and maybe it will grow more on me.
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Ok...lets assume I'll never know.
But I'll ask you. If you added 4" of butt pad and moved the pistol grip and trigger back 4", how would it be less amazing?
The scope would obstruct the loading port.
It would not balance the same.
And it would not fit in my gun case.
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Eh,,,it is a style. Don't do anything "better" than other rifles in the same price range. Pups are short, which has some situations is a plus....and some situations where it isn't.
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If it's brushy/close quarter conditions (where shortness is a plus) why would you need long range power?
Its not "long range" power. Its just about power and/or efficiency. Not to mention an extra helping of quietness. As in, "I'm going to shoot a whitetail deer at 50 yards" kind of power and "I want as much extra FPS as I can squeeze out of my tune while conserving as much air as possible." Or "I'm going to brain shoot a hog at 50 yards, but I also want enough efficiency to also shoot 12 squirrels as I sit in during the same hunt without a refill and stay within my bell curve" kind of balance between power and efficiency a longer barrel provides. Sure, you can squeeze extra power out of a short barrel with the right valving. And you can turn your power way down to have more efficiency with the short barrel. But the longer barrel lets you have both higher power and higher efficiency together.
The maneuverability not about swinging the gun around in brushy undergrowth as if the hunter is belly-crawling thru a briar patch. Its about swinging the gun around on a tree stand or out of a blind (such as a pop-up blind). Having the shortest gun possible makes all of the difference in the world when your withdrawing the gun from one window of the blind and aiming it out another window without it rubbing up against blind material, poking far out of the blind, or being awkward to move on shooting sticks. Or when shifting the gun around on a shooting rest across a tree stand.
The bullpup design is for the hunter that doesn't want to sacrifice power and efficiency while keeping the shortness of a carbine. And I suppose it doesn't have to be only the hunter who wants to have a carbine's shortness without the negative consequences that go with shorter barrels.
The drawback to a regular rifle with a long barrel is that its more awkward to handle. The drawback to a carbine is that is sacrifices maximum power and efficiency in exchange for easier maneuvering. The only drawback I can really see to a bullpup is personal to the shooter. Either the design is one that the shooter can handle with comfort. Or it isn't, in which case the shooter who can't gel with a bullpup is basically in the same position as the shooter who cannot gel with a long-length barrel.
Where barrel length makes such a difference in air rifles for power and efficiency purposes, it really makes all of the sense in the word from a performance standpoint that bullpups would find a niche in airgun design.
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Eh,,,it is a style. Don't do anything "better" than other rifles in the same price range. Pups are short, which has some situations is a plus....and some situations where it isn't.
Take two airguns of the same length. Lets say 34". Both are identical in every way, except that one is a bullpup and has a 24" barrel, while the other is a carbine with a 16". All other variables are the same. Valving, air tank size, ect. are all identical.
Can you really say the bullpup with the 24" barrel isn't going to do something "better" than the gun with the 16" barrel in terms of maximum power or efficiency?
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Not going to link efficency with power...if anything,it's EASIER to get an efficient (in terms of air use for power out put)at lower power than at higher power (it's that "diminihsing returns" thing).
Will frrely give the pups their shortness....that's why they exist...and about the only thing they have to offer over the same air volume/barrel length/tuning.
Will aslo freely give you that 26" of barrel (with the same power plant) is going to give more energy for the air use than 16" of barrel.
But in the close quarters where shortness really counts,don't really need the extra power for airgun type critters (lets say squirrels/rabbits/etc.). If it is close enough cover where shortness is a big plus, won't be getting the long range shots where speed/energy is really needed.
Will keep this one...although fell a lot more free to seriously mod it to maximize the bullpupishness.
Shoud and built in LDC is coming off, leaving a gare barrel and a detachable LDC. Will attach the LDC for when I need quiet,detach it when I need serious shortness and don't care about noise (which is mostly all the tine duing hunting season...out with the firearms guys, a bare-barrel PCP is still quieter than firearms).
It's not that bullpuppyness is a bad thing...it's just that I haven't found it to be a univerisally good thing...and yet that seems to set some folks off.
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Not going to link efficency with power...if anything,it's EASIER to get an efficient (in terms of air use for power out put)at lower power than at higher power (it's that "diminihsing returns" thing).
Will frrely give the pups their shortness....that's why they exist...and about the only thing they have to offer over the same air volume/barrel length/tuning.
Will aslo freely give you that 26" of barrel (with the same power plant) is going to give more energy for the air use than 16" of barrel.
But in the close quarters where shortness really counts,don't really need the extra power for airgun type critters (lets say squirrels/rabbits/etc.). If it is close enough cover where shortness is a big plus, won't be getting the long range shots where speed/energy is really needed.
Will keep this one...although fell a lot more free to seriously mod it to maximize the bullpupishness.
Shoud and built in LDC is coming off, leaving a gare barrel and a detachable LDC. Will attach the LDC for when I need quiet,detach it when I need serious shortness and don't care about noise (which is mostly all the tine duing hunting season...out with the firearms guys, a bare-barrel PCP is still quieter than firearms).
It's not that bullpuppyness is a bad thing...it's just that I haven't found it to be a univerisally good thing...and yet that seems to set some folks off.
Many of us consider coons, possums, hogs, deer, turkeys, bobcats, and other medium sized animals normal "airgun critters." Thus we have to reject your premise that power doesn't matter at close range.
I don't think anyone is getting "set off." You asked for input and we're giving it. That some of us are rejecting some of your points isn't being isn't being set off. Its just friendly disagreement.
How many bullpups do you see in my signature? I may have my own reasons for rarely using bullpups. But I'd be intellectually amiss if I pretended they didn't give an advantage in how they make long-barreled gun very maneuverable, or acknowledging that long-barreled guns give performance advantages over short-barrelled guns.
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My Taipan Veteran is truly a remarkable shooting gun. But only off a bag or bipod. Truly miserable offhand. They are compact powerful guns but it takes twice the effort to shoot one as good as you shoot a regular rifle but it can be done. Not worth it for some and I don’t blame them.
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Shot 2 raccoons so far tonight with my .25 P15. Had to move my light from the rail to the scope. Gun was too dang tall to get out my window with the light on the bottom and the towering bullpup scope mounting position. Compact yes, lengthwise. Not so compact in the other dimension.
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Still not seeing bullpuppyness as a universal solution...although the bullpup fans have put up a good argument, it still boils down to shortness.
Do gree that bigger critters would be better taken with higher power....just don't see where shortness is a universal solution.
So I'm going to give the bullpuppy some credit for shortness with power. HAs some drawbacks that fans evidently aren't willing to see....and evidently, from the reactions, some plus points I haven't yet been able to find.
It is stimulating me to pull the working parts of this one out of it's puppish stock, fit it into a traditional stock, add a "normal" trigger, and try it that way.
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Gents, this thread is about OPINION!!! If you like pups - GOOD FOR YOU!! If you don't like them - GOOD FOR YOU!! Nothing anyone says will sway OPINIONS one way or the other. It's your money, spend it the way you like!
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My Taipan Veteran is truly a remarkable shooting gun. But only off a bag or bipod. Truly miserable offhand. They are compact powerful guns but it takes twice the effort to shoot one as good as you shoot a regular rifle but it can be done. Not worth it for some and I don’t blame them.
Frank,
it took alot of practice to get the tai-vet to shoot good off-hand.
i just through it all together while teaching myself to shoot left handed,
and both tasks became natural. ;)
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They should be about half the price of a full sizer. (https://i.imgur.com/VZvF2zV.gif)
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Still not seeing bullpuppyness as a universal solution...although the bullpup fans have put up a good argument, it still boils down to shortness.
Do gree that bigger critters would be better taken with higher power....just don't see where shortness is a universal solution.
I believe that no one can come up with anything that is going to make that flashpup feel to you the way that my bullpups feel to me, you're either going to like the compact fit or not.
In my hands due to my experience the shorter the gun the better it feels. Obviously you prefer the fit and feel of a more conventional rifle, so that compact almost cramped feel the BP isn't a fit.
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You gave it another try and should be applauded for being willing to revisit something you were previously opposed to.
I am still a fan of the pups, but can't argue against the fleas that come with the dog---awkward off hand, hold sensitive, etc. But to me, shortness, lightweight with proportionately high shot count and power make those fleas much easier to live with.
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Still not seeing bullpuppyness as a universal solution...although the bullpup fans have put up a good argument, it still boils down to shortness.
Do gree that bigger critters would be better taken with higher power....just don't see where shortness is a universal solution.
So I'm going to give the bullpuppy some credit for shortness with power. HAs some drawbacks that fans evidently aren't willing to see....and evidently, from the reactions, some plus points I haven't yet been able to find.
It is stimulating me to pull the working parts of this one out of it's puppish stock, fit it into a traditional stock, add a "normal" trigger, and try it that way.
Robert, I bolded the part where you put words in our mouths. Those of us who like bullpups see them, just like, carbines, rifles, and pistols, as having tradeoffs from one platform to another and are willing to live with those tradeoffs. I never thought I'd like bullpups, but after shooting a few, I appreciate the places (listed in one of my earlier posts in this thread) where they would excel for me. For what I currently hunt, my PP700 suffices. If I wanted more power in a given small size, I'd be stuck either with a carbine or 'pup, and both have pros and cons. And having swung around to shoot critters from a suspended harness, I really wish I'd had a bullpup back then (never mind having a PCP!)
Now- if you compare all the various bullpups out there from the $2k version down to the Flashpup, you'll see various configurations- some leaner than others- and some that are very tall and others that slip by with svelte grace. The Priest, for example- offers a small vertical profile, as does the Impact, when comparing to the Bullboss and Flashpup. But then, we're also talking a huge difference in price, never mind the sheer mass and bulk of the Hatsans. The Kral Puncher Breaker is a much cleaner execution of a bullpup than the Flashpup, IMO, and it handles notably easier.
In the end, these are all opinions. Find what works for you and run with it.
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Don't like em ... don't buy or use one .
Dang how simple is that (https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/smilies/av-101150.gif)
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Don't like em ... don't buy or use one .
Dang how simple is that (https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/smilies/av-101150.gif)
Wait a sec now, Scott. You mean I'm not being forced to like them here? :)
BTW, righteous GIF!
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My Taipan Veteran is truly a remarkable shooting gun. But only off a bag or bipod. Truly miserable offhand. They are compact powerful guns but it takes twice the effort to shoot one as good as you shoot a regular rifle but it can be done. Not worth it for some and I don’t blame them.
Frank,
it took alot of practice to get the tai-vet to shoot good off-hand.
i just through it all together while teaching myself to shoot left handed,
and both tasks became natural. ;)
When I can buy another stock for my Taipan, I will take about a pound of wood off it and make it a better offhand shooter. Right now it’s like I am holding a 2x6 with a grip. Like someone mentioned, drop the Taipan action into a Brocock simi-bullpup stock, oh my, what a gun that would be.
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When I can buy another stock for my Taipan, I will take about a pound of wood off it and make it a better offhand shooter. Right now it’s like I am holding a 2x6 with a grip. Like someone mentioned, drop the Taipan action into a Brocock simi-bullpup stock, oh my, what a gun that would be.
if its a drop-in fit to the brocock, i'd be interested in that also !! 8)
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Still not seeing bullpuppyness as a universal solution...although the bullpup fans have put up a good argument, it still boils down to shortness.
Do gree that bigger critters would be better taken with higher power....just don't see where shortness is a universal solution.
So I'm going to give the bullpuppy some credit for shortness with power. HAs some drawbacks that fans evidently aren't willing to see....and evidently, from the reactions, some plus points I haven't yet been able to find.
It is stimulating me to pull the working parts of this one out of it's puppish stock, fit it into a traditional stock, add a "normal" trigger, and try it that way.
Robert, I bolded the part where you put words in our mouths. Those of us who like bullpups see them, just like, carbines, rifles, and pistols, as having tradeoffs from one platform to another and are willing to live with those tradeoffs. I never thought I'd like bullpups, but after shooting a few, I appreciate the places (listed in one of my earlier posts in this thread) where they would excel for me. For what I currently hunt, my PP700 suffices. If I wanted more power in a given small size, I'd be stuck either with a carbine or 'pup, and both have pros and cons. And having swung around to shoot critters from a suspended harness, I really wish I'd had a bullpup back then (never mind having a PCP!)
Now- if you compare all the various bullpups out there from the $2k version down to the Flashpup, you'll see various configurations- some leaner than others- and some that are very tall and others that slip by with svelte grace. The Priest, for example- offers a small vertical profile, as does the Impact, when comparing to the Bullboss and Flashpup. But then, we're also talking a huge difference in price, never mind the sheer mass and bulk of the Hatsans. The Kral Puncher Breaker is a much cleaner execution of a bullpup than the Flashpup, IMO, and it handles notably easier.
In the end, these are all opinions. Find what works for you and run with it.
I agree 100%. There is a big difference in the comfort level and offhand shooting comfort from one manufacturer to another. I have owned several including an Impact, unfortunately the junkiest pup I owned is the greatest feeling offhand. So I dumped a ton of money in it to make it as close to right as possible. These are two 45yrd offhand nighttime victims from last night.
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You ARE required...pretty sure it's in the by-laws (right after the GTA secret handshake but before the decoder ring instructions).
Actually, once set up on a bench or bi-pod, shoot pretty much like any other PCP.
I'd certainly hope spending 4 or 5X as much would have some advantage....while I'm happy enough with the accuracy of this one,I'd be really unhappy if I spent 3X as much.
BUT if you are going to compare a $1.8-2K Bullpup, please do it to a $1.8-2K standard format rifle....just seems unfair other wise (although some times I honestly wonder about the perfomance cost/benefit).
It's not really in competition with expensive rifles....pretty much equal to other "standard" rifles. Not going to won any bnech rest competition,but for 10 shot groups, don't really see a giant advanatge or disadvantage.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47930920457_a83c275a96.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2g2uuLi)DSCN1926 (https://flic.kr/p/2g2uuLi) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
(it was a good day..can just ignor the Urban; the two Hatsans are a more direct comparsion..both Hatsan...bothy about the same air volume...just different shapes/calibers).
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47930925123_cb3ce7c8d6.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2g2uw9K)DSCN1925 (https://flic.kr/p/2g2uw9K) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
As for putting words in folks mouths....if it was a direct quote,I'd have put it in "quotation marks"...if it were an indirect quation, I'd use the old standard of included the person it was attribuited to in the sentence.
Wasn't either of those...just a summation of the information/opinions I gleened from summation of previous tests.
And I still stand by that. Bullpups have faults...they must have advantages....I've yet to find the big advantage.
So maybe I was totally wrong in HOW I tested it. Bigazz high power scope may have been my first mistake.
So lets assume that shortness has something to do with fast manuvering in heavy cover/close quarters (if not heavy cover, why would I really want a short rifle?).
So if I'm talking heavy cover, why would I be worried about long range shots....better yet,why would I have gone hunting in heavy cover with a 24X scope in the first place?
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Long range shots? Nope. More like full power cuz BPs got full length barrels, not the abbreviated barrel typical for a carbine. Pros and cons to every platform.
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Wow, some of you guys are really funny.
Bull pups too tall...as compared to what ? Most have the SAME sight/scope rail mount dimension off of the barrel as most long rifles..! Measure'm...I dare you..! Or are you going to say that .100" is huge..! So the M14 series rifles with their tall sights off of the barrel are too tall... Seems that they have put down MANY targets..!
Too tall to control..? Wow, maybe those of you with this complaint should do some weight lifting, like with more than just the weight of a aluminum can. Some if not most of your arguments are silly, not willing to adapt excuses.
You don't visually like them...that's the only accurate excuse for not liking the bull pup design that has been mentioned here.
I could go on, but you anti-guys probably already hate me because of my short post.
I'm new to air guns (and here), but not at all to powder fired long guns and hand guns. Me, yea, as you may guess, I like the bull pup design. I have them in my powder fired collection also. I bought one of the first designs sold in the US, or at least CA. back in the late 70's, the original version of the Steyr, AUG.
My first air rifle as of about 90 or so days ago...an Edgun, Lelya (now with a modified stock), now looking into buying another (different brand)...short rifle..!
Keep shooting what you like, but acting like 4th graders (some) is really unbecoming..!
Mike
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OK, ok, I'll bite .....
I have plenty of 'long' airguns and ONLY ONE Bullpup, the Bullboss. I shoot off a stand or bench, so it really makes no difference to me whatsoever. However, when carrying the gun and shooting standing, I DO prefer the way the pup balances, and carries itself.
Now, to be fair, yes it does not balance well VERTICALLY, due to having to put the scope higher up. Because the Bullboss is heavy, I have the smallest ?? scope (UTG 3-12x44 SWAT -glass) that I own on it. It helps compared to some other scopes I had tried.
The main issue for me with pups, is that the charging handle HAS to be close the trigger hand!! The other guns that do that - I cannot afford (read FX). Newer guns seem to be now starting that trend. Reaching back to my neck to charge (whether a lever or a bolt) is NOT going to work for me.
Do I have a preference? NO. The choices are there, so choose whatever you like and enjoy yourself!!
Cheers
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I really thought a bullpup would be easier to offhand since there is less weight further out.
Seems the militaries of the world are moving away from them too. So I've heard.
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I have owned about every bullpup made at one time as well as many many air rifles both standard and carbine and my latest bullpup the Ataman bp17 is the shortest of them all and the most difficult to shoot for me and this has nothing to do with weight its very light or scope rail etc. etc. its simply the shorter the gun the livelier the muzzle gets and thats just a fact. Do I like the BP17 yes for close shooting inside 40 yards max with a fixed scope magnification other than that I would take a small carbine every time for accuracy beyond 40 yards. The only advantage a bullpup has over a carbine rifle is it can use a full length barrel and stay compact therefore the power and report afe better than a carbine other than that Im with Ribbs on this.
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If nothing else, Ribbs puts up yet another post, in a long series of posts, that gets an airgunner to pondering, puzzling and discussing.
My thought on the tippy, top heavy aspect is that it is a result of the trigger hand being located lower due to the pistol grip or thumbhole set up used on virtually all of the pup platforms.
Couple that with the closer spacing of your support hand due to the compact platform, and you get the top heavy or tippy feeling. Or I could be wrong.....
I am fascinated with mini carbines like the Ataman Ultra Compact, Vulcan Tactic and the like. The advantage 'to me' of the full blown pup platform is the longer barrel length which allows for full spin up on a pellet.
Weeds, brush, jungle vines, or crowded bus maneuverability aside, sometimes you just wanna hit em in the bean with as many FPE as you can and do it with a compact easy to carry rig.
Agree, disagree, like em or not, still a goid topic.
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Did measure....more like 1" higher. But bullpups aren't the only design that requires that kind of high mounting; AirForce,Rex,and others also need a pretty high scope mount because of their straight stocking (Well...it's not really a "stock" is it?)...so it's not a problem unique to bullpups...just something straight stocking requires.
Chuckinohio's description seems spot on for me and offhand shooting. Shooting it today (off hand) It did feel better balanced when I used the forward folded bipod legs as my left hand's support (uncomfortable shape and a bit springy..but increasing the distance between my hands did seem to settle it down better).
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Did measure....more like 1" higher. But bullpups aren't the only design that requires that kind of high mounting; AirForce,Rex,and others also need a pretty high scope mount because of their straight stocking (Well...it's not really a "stock" is it?)...so it's not a problem unique to bullpups...just something straight stocking requires.
Chuckinohio's description seems spot on for me and offhand shooting. Shooting it today (off hand) It did feel better balanced when I used the forward folded bipod legs as my left hand's support (uncomfortable shape and a bit springy..but increasing the distance between my hands did seem to settle it down better).
I couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn with a bullpup till Motörhead showed me how to stand and hold them correctly now I’m much much better. It isn’t a natural feeling thing to stand 90 degrees to the target with your elbows pinched into your sides but it sure stabilizes the short lively muzzle
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Wow, some of you guys are really funny.
Bull pups too tall...as compared to what ? Most have the SAME sight/scope rail mount dimension off of the barrel as most long rifles..!
Wrong,
Doesn't matter how you slice it but since your cheek weld on Pups is the action your scope will ALWAYS be higher then on rifles/carbines,
that's ok if you shooting at known distances, not so much when you hunting and your target distance can change dramatically.
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I want to be able to shoot ANYTHING so I own many different guns in many different configurations and strive to be good with them all. Some I like better short and some long. I have them from 30" to over 5' and each is a unique challenge I enjoy immensely. I only sit at a bench when tuning or sighting in. After that it is variable position, holds and terrain shot in. I like dynamic targets and any possible situation I can imagine. If I can be good in any conditions with any gun and any target and any hold at any distance I consider myself a successful shooter. 8)
One oddity in my shooting is that one day I may be spot on with a particular gun and another day I can't hit anything with it but find that on those days a different gun is the ticket for accurate shooting that particular day. ???
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I can say the Ataman though lively at the barrel is by far the easiest to operate and carry plus it shoulders the best as well
https://www.instagram.com/p/ByhHBqVh2ZB/?igshid=1ckzi7k53vekl (https://www.instagram.com/p/ByhHBqVh2ZB/?igshid=1ckzi7k53vekl)
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Did measure....more like 1" higher. But bullpups aren't the only design that requires that kind of high mounting; AirForce,Rex,and others also need a pretty high scope mount because of their straight stocking (Well...it's not really a "stock" is it?)...so it's not a problem unique to bullpups...just something straight stocking requires.
Chuckinohio's description seems spot on for me and offhand shooting. Shooting it today (off hand) It did feel better balanced when I used the forward folded bipod legs as my left hand's support (uncomfortable shape and a bit springy..but increasing the distance between my hands did seem to settle it down better).
I couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn with a bullpup till Motörhead showed me how to stand and hold them correctly now I’m much much better. It isn’t a natural feeling thing to stand 90 degrees to the target with your elbows pinched into your sides but it sure stabilizes the short lively muzzle
Yup ... Got to get those elbows in along side your ribs and the PUP becomes super stable to shoot offhand. In all honesty can shoot a PUP offhand far better than a long gun.
There just different, some will like them or own one for the sake of having a different type gun, where others simply can't or won't even care.
Ask yourself this .... If RIFLES and so great, why have a PISTOL ??? Same argument, many similar reasons to the PUP debate.
This threads dead IMO.
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My first foray into BP's was with a Mrod in a MDRL stock. Not a good BP example, but disliked it for what you stated in 6 and 7. The rear cocking was hard to deal with, too. Also, didn't find a great advantage for my uses. I do still have a bulldog. Someday may try a semi-BP in something that was designed that way from the start. If we all liked the same thing, how boring would that be! ;)
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Did measure....more like 1" higher. But bullpups aren't the only design that requires that kind of high mounting; AirForce,Rex,and others also need a pretty high scope mount because of their straight stocking (Well...it's not really a "stock" is it?)...so it's not a problem unique to bullpups...just something straight stocking requires.
Chuckinohio's description seems spot on for me and offhand shooting. Shooting it today (off hand) It did feel better balanced when I used the forward folded bipod legs as my left hand's support (uncomfortable shape and a bit springy..but increasing the distance between my hands did seem to settle it down better).
I couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn with a bullpup till Motörhead showed me how to stand and hold them correctly now I’m much much better. It isn’t a natural feeling thing to stand 90 degrees to the target with your elbows pinched into your sides but it sure stabilizes the short lively muzzle
Yup ... Got to get those elbows in along side your ribs and the PUP becomes super stable to shoot offhand. In all honesty can shoot a PUP offhand far better than a long gun.
There just different, some will like them or own one for the sake of having a different type gun, where others simply can't or won't even care.
Ask yourself this .... If RIFLES and so great, why have a PISTOL ??? Same argument, many similar reasons to the PUP debate.
This threads dead IMO.
Perfectly stated.
However...
I disliked bullpups until I used a Steyr repli-gun in airsoft; elbows in, pivoting and sweeping without lots of exposure... I went from zero to hero in that match. I like my PP700 pistol with the carbine stock.... but that Ataman (much like the Colibri and some of the other ultra-compact BPs) have a certain level of appeal just for the ultra-compact size. The simple fact they are much smaller to pack/out when travelling (such as too my sister's place in NC) would mean more room for other things, too. I'll add even that heavy tank of a Steyr replica was very comfy to carry and shoulder REALLY well with a single-point sling. LOL, the only time I was shot in those matches was by guys with pistols, so there ya go. So whether you want a carbine, semi-BP, BP, pistol, or rifle, you can find sumthin' ya like... And if you don't, somebody else'll buy it off ya. But the only way you'll ever find out is to try 'em all.
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Ooooh... I almost never get the time to come check the GTA during the summer, but BOY, am I glad that I logged on, tonight! Hahaha... DRAMA!
Joking aside, I look at this through a very strange set of lenses: Alaska Fishing Guide; Dad; Farmer
Farmer: If--IF!--I was to ever shoot out of my truck while driving through hundreds of acres of orchards with no time to stop and get out--which I would NEVER do because I'm not supposed to--I would want to use a platform that allowed me to grab a gun and deploy it with a minimum of fuss. In that situation, a bullpup would be really nice.
I currently use an Ataman ultra compact with the folding stock because that is what the winds of fortune blew my way. If I were to use it in a truck, it wouldn't be ideal. Trust me. That said, I _really_ like the placement of the sidelever in relation to my shoulder, vs. a pup. No lie.
BUT, a pup can generate more FPS, more efficiently, with less filling, than my truck gun. Don't think this escapes my attention. Especially because I'm still pumping by hand. Tee-hee.
One thing that hasn't really been addressed is muzzle flip: With a pup, anything .25 and up would be all lively and annoying if I were to shoot off my truck door--which I would never do, of course--and that might even apply to .22 slugs, for all I know. In .22, every pup I've shot didn't fight back. This is good, for me. If I were to shoot a compact carbine off of my truck door--which I would never do--the geometry might be a little more forgiving. I wouldn't know, though, because I would never do that... and I'm also a horrible shooter.
Also good for me: I was able to shoot a bottle cap multiple times in a row with a Taipan Mutant in .22.
A bottle cap.
Offhand.
At 50 yards. (With witnesses!)
It was the FIRST time I'd ever even held the gun.
I'd be lying if it wasn't almost a sexual experience.
Alaska Fishing Guide/Farmer: Tools are tools are tools, and each has its place. Don't remove that alternator with a hammer, yo. If I get a chance to settle down and shoot for real, the only gun I reach for is my S510. Every time. That gun just feels so good.
If I were to shoot on the go, out of my truck--which I would never do--I'd go for something shorter. Something as short as possible.
Finally... The Dad in me: I don't have _time_ to settle down and shoot for real... to truly scope and "hunt". The vast majority of my shooting takes place spontaneously because I'm on the farm 6 days a week, 12 hours per day. If I could, I would shoot out of my truck while I manage the farm and drive from field to field and see ground squirrels running around and offering themselves to me. But I can't. If I could, though, I'd use the tool that enables me to do that, easily.
Because the rest of the time, I want to spend with my family.
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8) I have both, each has it's use
got a long HW110 fac really long and a Kozak compact, it gets shot the most
next to buy is a Zbroia Sapsan ;D
With you on the sapsan👍🏾😎
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Right there with ya Ribbs....
Along with all you said.. I'm a long hair. I'm not into my hair being pulled like some may be. Way too much going on right next to my face,ear and hair.
While back a fellow GTA member told me he'd recently pulled the trigger on an (IIRC) Edgun R5 .30 with the bolt open. He said it was really xxxxxxx loud. :o
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To each their own. Lots of opinions here that are stated as facts. Beauty is in the eye of the gun holder imo.
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'zactly Joe.
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Put it away and got out some of the "normal" rifles. That might have been a mistke so far as bullpups are concerned as the normal rifles were just so user-friendly.
Think that to really like bullpups as well as several here do, I'd pretty much have to dedicate my time to pullpups. Use them enough, and likely they'd feel "right" and the traditional rifles would feel "off".....kindmy experience with springers. Not rthat I can't get use to them and shoot them well, just that I have to pretty well dedicate my shooting time to the breed.
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Should I reiterate what said in my first post?
Full-length barrel in compact package. Good for offhand shooting with the gun held in close to the body. Locations? Think tree-stands. Tight quarters- not just dense forest but dense forest with heavy underbrush. A good example is new-growth woods here in VA where creepers and waist-to-head high plants (not just trees) are all you really see. I could see them being very effective in a cherry-picker or bucket truck doing pest control-less gun overhanging the edge of a long drop, too. I had to shoot a lot out of bucket-trucks during my stint in pest control- never was fond of the overhang with either a pumper or springer... though I also had to shoot pigeons suspended from a 5-point harness 30 feet above the CA Aqueduct in Morgan Hill underneath an overpass- and I would have given several bodyparts for a bullpup at that time!
A carbine by definition is typically a shortened rifle, so while a carbine is great at mobility, the bullpup is even better if you want a full length barrel. Some bullpups are horrible designs. The Hatsans are just top-heavy and quite ugly- despite being very functional tools. The Taipain and EdGuns are the opposite end of that spectrum.
Ultimately, bullpups have some functionality advatages over standard rifles, just as rifles have some over bullpups. I think ultimately, it's a choice much like wearing shorty boots versus mid-calf boots. Each has advantages.
Hey don't insult my Hatsan flashpup , lol. Just kidding. Here in Ga the hunting woods could get quite thick as well and although I have a few PCP rifles I wanted a bullpup for those times I want to venture into the thick stuff.
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I've recently started using a bullpup. I like the way it handles. Half way between a pistol and rifle. Also, I can have a full length barrel without requiring a super long hard case. That makes for a more compact/efficient package and easier transport.
There is no scope in the way of the loading port so they are very easy to single load. My standard configuration scoped PCPs are awkward to single load so I almost always use magazines with them.
For precision shooting, balance is nice in the sitting and kneeling positions.
the portability is another reason I added the flashpup as well. I have a full bed silverado which isn't an issue for any rifles at all. But I also have a compact car that has tremendous gas mileage and for those car accessible areas I can put that flashpup in that compact car trunk and take it anywhere instead of trying to squeeze the rifle case in the passenger seat. I love rifles but adding the one flashpup really opened up the different ways I can go without always having to take the truck and use twice the gas.
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Did measure....more like 1" higher. But bullpups aren't the only design that requires that kind of high mounting; AirForce,Rex,and others also need a pretty high scope mount because of their straight stocking (Well...it's not really a "stock" is it?)...so it's not a problem unique to bullpups...just something straight stocking requires.
Chuckinohio's description seems spot on for me and offhand shooting. Shooting it today (off hand) It did feel better balanced when I used the forward folded bipod legs as my left hand's support (uncomfortable shape and a bit springy..but increasing the distance between my hands did seem to settle it down better).
I couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn with a bullpup till Motörhead showed me how to stand and hold them correctly now I’m much much better. It isn’t a natural feeling thing to stand 90 degrees to the target with your elbows pinched into your sides but it sure stabilizes the short lively muzzle
Awesome tip for the bullpup style. Ive been shooting it the same as any other rifle. I'm going to try that 90 degree stance and tight too body stance and see if it helps me.
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Did measure....more like 1" higher. But bullpups aren't the only design that requires that kind of high mounting; AirForce,Rex,and others also need a pretty high scope mount because of their straight stocking (Well...it's not really a "stock" is it?)...so it's not a problem unique to bullpups...just something straight stocking requires.
Chuckinohio's description seems spot on for me and offhand shooting. Shooting it today (off hand) It did feel better balanced when I used the forward folded bipod legs as my left hand's support (uncomfortable shape and a bit springy..but increasing the distance between my hands did seem to settle it down better).
I couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn with a bullpup till Motörhead showed me how to stand and hold them correctly now I’m much much better. It isn’t a natural feeling thing to stand 90 degrees to the target with your elbows pinched into your sides but it sure stabilizes the short lively muzzle
Yup ... Got to get those elbows in along side your ribs and the PUP becomes super stable to shoot offhand. In all honesty can shoot a PUP offhand far better than a long gun.
There just different, some will like them or own one for the sake of having a different type gun, where others simply can't or won't even care.
Ask yourself this .... If RIFLES and so great, why have a PISTOL ??? Same argument, many similar reasons to the PUP debate.
This threads dead IMO.
I'm glad I followed this thread because I've been keeping elbows tight to body with a regular stance and that definitely helps but I never though of turning 90 degrees to target so I'm anxious to try that.
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Anybody know a price or the whereabouts of the Zbroia Sapsan? Have only seen it on their web-sight.
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Back in April, Zbroia answered my email and replied that the production of the Sapsan was scheduled to begin in June
British preorder sites are asking 900 Pounds about $1200 retail, some will sell for less
HPAexpert store answered only my first email with, they don't know yet, call back in a couple of days. Since then no answer to email, text or phone, it goes to voice mail....that does not help sales
I am going to get one, even if I have to order it from a store in Europe(not England)
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Back in April, Zbroia answered my email and replied that the productiom of the Sapsan was scheduled to begin in June
British preorder sites are asking 900 Pounds about $1200 retail, some will sell for less
HPAexpert store answered only my first email with they don't know yet, call back in a couple of days.Since then no answer to email, text or phone, it goes to voice mail....that does not help sales
I am going to get one, even if I have to order it from a store in Europe(not England)
+1😎👍🏾
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Jack thanks. I just sent an email to Joe B. asking if he is going to sell the Saspan, availability, and price. Hopefully I will hear back.
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Look at it this way... IT is about K.I.S.S.
would rather keep track of hold over than hold under and hold over...the higher the scope the more scope and rifle cant effect... can't...see the sense in adding more things to account for/ track / train my form for... I loved Dads Remmy 512 and early T22 was pretty dang good ammo...if it was above M.O.A. at 50 yards it was me or me misjudging wind...
Point is there is a feel and balance to a rifle that feels very natural...just like feeling your own rhythms...it is a pleasing feel... the ponderous Mrod does not have it.... My T.C. contender did among others... a Disco has it the Max almost has it.. the little spa has it...
the Buccaneers have it... my little fleet of 13xx/hybrid pumpers have it... It allows me to concentrate on reading the wind and judging wind only... off a rock shooting sticks the ground prone side tree rested etc...
So for me the added needs of a pup do not fit...and the balance is off...why should I change my whole way of doing things after 50 years...I know that f it can be done with a pup I can do it with a carbine or even a long 19" barreled carbine...
The pups just do not fit my Zen/ Rhythms that let the rifle be an natural extension... rather than a consciously used tool...
So yeah though have handled a few pups... after 50 years... do not feel there is enough benefit to having one to change my way of doing things.....
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Rethinking the bullup-configuration.
Major plus points seem to be:
1. It's short.
2. It is back heavy....which makes it swing/movee quickly.
3. Style points for being a bull pup.
So I did a rethink.... maybe nothing wrong with the breed...just that I';ve been using it wrong.
Short and back heavy would be plus points for close quarters and rapid sighting/shooting.
Not knocking the accuracy or power, it can shoot as well as other PCP's in it's price range.
After a bit of shooting with a lighter/simple 4X AO scope vs a long heavy 6-24X scope...am going to change a few things to reinforce the positive atttibutes and re-test with a smaller/lighter scope (likely somtheing like a 1-6X FFP,AO, small scope...somthing I'd think would be more at home on an AR 15.
Can predict some howling at that. DId say that it shot as well as anything else? Can shoot it as well as the others from a bench,solid bi-pod, or even cross sticks,so I'll just have to take on faith that a more expensive bullpup would shoot with others in it's price class.
But is has to do something "better" to earn a place....and maybe ther "better" is in going with the short/rear balanced flow rahter than fighting it.
Isn't that why short versions of long rifles were invented?
Maybe not....but I'll hunt up an appropriate scope in that direction and find out.
(Just to say...am not quoting anyones post (at least not intentionally).
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After a bit of shooting with a lighter/simple 4X AO scope vs a long heavy 6-24X scope...am going to change a few things to reinforce the positive atttibutes and re-test with a smaller/lighter scope (likely somtheing like a 1-6X FFP,AO, small scope...somthing I'd think would be more at home on an AR 15.
This is a REALLY important point! My old truck gun (Talon SS) and my Ataman carbine both felt "wrong" with a large scope. Really top-heavy. The long gun could take it, but I simply prefer smaller scopes, regardless. I found that the smaller guns lent themselves to "weird" field shooting (resting against a tree, leaning over a fence, etc) with smaller scopes, so I tended to use them more and more because I could confidently take the shot (I could hold them steady, with less effort).
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I have a powerful .357 Pitbull that off the bench has great but off hand was a hard Airgun to shoot well.
And yes, putting my left elbow against my chest and turning more helped but something just was not right.
One thing I figured out I was just using too much scope. So tried an old 2x7 I had at 4X and that was better.
Then I tried a Holosun HS507C reflex sight (on a 7/8"" Picatinny riser block) I had laying around and the whole character of the rifle changed. Now this is not a target rifle but is a hunting rifle, for 100 yards max and mostly 20 to 60 yards. And I am shooting stuff with lethal zones of 2" or more. Now the rifle does not seem too tall and tippy like others were mentioning. Plus, the accuracy offhand is some of the best I've ever gotten in my life... 1-1/4" groups at 50 yards with this rifle is pretty good in my book!!!!! [Note that on the bench this rifle will do 1/2" to 3/4" groups repeatedly at 50 yes.] After rereading this, I see I forgot to say that I am getting 2" groups at 100 yards, smaller than you would expect based on the 50 yard... the reflex sight really works for me there with the dot.
Also, I added a Magpul AFG-2 angled foregrip in front of the trigger guard and it works as a palm rest or when pulling my elbow in close, the angle actually is perfect where before the wrist angle was uncomfortable just placed under the stock.
Totally changed the handling and shooting of the rifle I was a little disappointed in to one that is easy to like.
Perhaps those who did not feel comfortable with their bullpups just were trying to set them up wrong.
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One mistake i see many making with pups is scope placement front to back. My own findings are the scope back further so as you hold and view the scope your posture ( Head & Neck ) is kept more upright and not with your head slumped forward or extended to get the eye relief correct.
Offhand or leaned against a wall, structure or support KEEP THE GUN IN TIGHT to your body. Use your body to try & create a bond with holding the gun where if your body is not moving or swaying, neither is your POA.
There just different and if approached and played with in non typical long Gun handling techniques can be quite a positive experience and success easier to obtain.
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One mistake i see many making with pups is scope placement front to back. My own findings are the scope back further so as you hold and view the scope your posture ( Head & Neck ) is kept more upright and not with your head slumped forward or extended to get the eye relief correct.
Offhand or leaned against a wall, structure or support KEEP THE GUN IN TIGHT to your body. Use your body to try & create a bond with holding the gun where if your body is not moving or swaying, neither is your POA.
There just different and if approached and played with in non typical long Gun handling techniques can be quite a positive experience and success easier to obtain.
again excellent advice .
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I have read through this entire thread and really have nothing to add to what has already been stated. For me I can live without the WOW/COOL factor and as Manny stated a nice well set up Carbine will do just as well. I also had a few and they failed to impress me. On the other hand if Evanix can sort out the Max Air semi automatic I will have to reconsider since my biggest gripe has always been the cocking after every shot. Reality is when hunting with an AG I will always limit my shots to 50 yards or less do to my belief that longer distance shots require the shooter to overcome too many variables. So accuracy/tight groups beyond 50 yards for me are not an issue. If Evanix can resolve the accuracy issues of the Max Air I will revisit the Bullpup otherwise not a chance since there are many other AG's available to choose from the next time I get bored with my current stable ot toys
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Didn't expect to add any new information...really isn't anything new about bull pups other than using a full length barrel in a short package.
BUT..it does seem bullpups are entering the "common man" area of pricing...which would tempt other comman men to give one a try,....so as a common man (in at least two of the deifnations) hoped it would give some of the other guys who are thinking about trying one something to think about.
If all your shooting is from a bench or bi-pod ,then you will have a very short period of adpating to the rifle. Honestly don't think there are many folks that seem to bother with off hand,even when hunting... that seems to take some more adapting.
Just wanted to help seperate the style from substance....finding it's mostly style.
Not that function and style don't go together...they do, and very likely for very good reasons. Humans have been shooting firearms for a very long time, and they've evolved in style to suit specific uses. Can dress it up/pare it down, add some blink or color, but basically many rifles do reflect their intented use from just looking at them.
A Schuetzen rifle generally looks like/balances like/acts like the other Schuetzen rifles...10 meter match airguns have a lot in common...so do FT or other steel-critter games rifles...trap shot guns...skeet shotguns...pass shooting duck shot guns...upland game shot guns...etc.
Don't think they would have as much in common in blance/ bore height/weight/ length if there weren't somthing to that combination.
Don't think the shooters (pretty much uniformaly,at the upper levels, are kind of cut-throat when it comes to even a slight legal advantage) stick with those forms if there wasn't something worth sticking with.
So with bullpups...I'm still looking for that spot.
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Rib!! At first, the bullpup was design on purpose for close quarters combat and tactical applications. The people using this type of weapon are not looking for SURGICAL PRECISION. The ergonomics of the weapon are adapted by the user in efficient way to the task to accomplish.. You cannot have it both ways in a single format.. This is why every sniper of the world use long rifle for precision application.. The fulcrum point being further from the shoulder imply less drastically impacting the point of aim.. Shorter the 2points of bearing are, more sensitive the movement effect the point of aim.
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Pretty much the direction I'm trying...do have uses for a lower scope power, high energy rifle...but those uses are away from the bench (or bipod rest); am hoping the puppy will show some abilities in that direction.
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yep that is another... want to see some open sights or a peep... bet that is a pain on a pup... my eyes are to bad now but...
so sight radius length pretty sure the carbine wins that one... could be wrong have not really looked into it... but red dots and laser is what I have seen most for pups...and not my thing...
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moving on
lets look at p90 verses ole reliable mp5
Changing mags... when sustained fire matters...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungle_style_(firearm_magazines)
how do ya do that with a P90...
::)
drum mags no not even on a pup show one that does not look clumsy/cumbersome...
just can not help it prefer a carbine no matter the incarnation/setuup...
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Changing mags?!? No way... You dual-wield! Haha.
Joking aside, it still comes back to tools, tools, tools, and how each fits into its happy place (or yours). I have never--NEVER--seen or shot an air rifle that truly hit all nails with one swing, despite marketing and hype. A precision piece of engineering translates to precision application, too.
I'll always have uses for long light guns, long heavy guns, carbines, pups, and pistols. It's merely a reflection of my shooting environment.