Bullpup trials...awnser is "no"

[FuzzyGrub]

My first foray into BP's was with a Mrod in a MDRL stock.  Not a good BP example, but disliked it for what you stated in 6 and 7.  The rear cocking was hard to deal with, too.  Also, didn't find a great advantage for my uses.   I do still have a bulldog.  Someday may try a semi-BP in something that was designed that way from the start.   If we all liked the same thing, how boring would that be!   

[anti-squirrel]

Did measure....more like 1" higher.  But bullpups aren't the only design that requires that kind of high mounting; AirForce,Rex,and others also need a pretty high scope mount because of their straight stocking (Well...it's not really a "stock" is it?)...so it's not a problem unique to bullpups...just something straight stocking requires.

Chuckinohio's description seems spot on for me and offhand shooting.  Shooting it today (off hand) It did feel better balanced when I used the forward folded bipod legs as my left hand's support (uncomfortable shape and a bit springy..but increasing the distance between my hands did seem to settle it down better).

I couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn with a bullpup till Motörhead showed me how to stand and hold them correctly now I’m much much better. It isn’t a natural feeling thing to stand 90 degrees to the target with your elbows pinched into your sides but it sure stabilizes the short lively muzzle

Yup ... Got to get those elbows in along side your ribs and the PUP becomes super stable to shoot offhand.  In all honesty can shoot a PUP offhand far better than a long gun.
There just different, some will like them or own one for the sake of having a different type gun, where others simply can't or won't even care.

Ask yourself this .... If RIFLES and so great, why have a PISTOL      Same argument, many similar reasons to the PUP debate.

This threads dead IMO.

Perfectly stated.

However...

I disliked bullpups until I used a Steyr repli-gun in airsoft;  elbows in, pivoting and sweeping without lots of exposure... I went from zero to hero in that match.  I like my PP700 pistol with the carbine stock.... but that Ataman (much like the Colibri and some of the other ultra-compact BPs) have a certain level of appeal just for the ultra-compact size.  The simple fact they are much smaller to pack/out when travelling (such as too my sister's place in NC) would mean more room for other things, too.  I'll add even that heavy tank of a Steyr replica was very comfy to carry and shoulder REALLY well with a single-point sling.  LOL, the only time I was shot in those matches was by guys with pistols, so there ya go.  So whether you want a carbine, semi-BP, BP, pistol, or rifle, you can find sumthin' ya like...  And if you don't, somebody else'll buy it off ya.  But the only way you'll ever find out is to try 'em all.

[drewciferpike]

Ooooh... I almost never get the time to come check the GTA during the summer, but BOY, am I glad that I logged on, tonight! Hahaha... DRAMA!

Joking aside, I look at this through a very strange set of lenses: Alaska Fishing Guide; Dad; Farmer

Farmer: If--IF!--I was to ever shoot out of my truck while driving through hundreds of acres of orchards with no time to stop and get out--which I would NEVER do because I'm not supposed to--I would want to use a platform that allowed me to grab a gun and deploy it with a minimum of fuss. In that situation, a bullpup would be really nice.

I currently use an Ataman ultra compact with the folding stock because that is what the winds of fortune blew my way. If I were to use it in a truck, it wouldn't be ideal. Trust me. That said, I _really_ like the placement of the sidelever in relation to my shoulder, vs. a pup. No lie.

BUT, a pup can generate more FPS, more efficiently, with less filling, than my truck gun. Don't think this escapes my attention. Especially because I'm still pumping by hand. Tee-hee.

One thing that hasn't really been addressed is muzzle flip: With a pup, anything .25 and up would be all lively and annoying if I were to shoot off my truck door--which I would never do, of course--and that might even apply to .22 slugs, for all I know. In .22, every pup I've shot didn't fight back. This is good, for me. If I were to shoot a compact carbine off of my truck door--which I would never do--the geometry might be a little more forgiving. I wouldn't know, though, because I would never do that... and I'm also a horrible shooter.

Also good for me: I was able to shoot a bottle cap multiple times in a row with a Taipan Mutant in .22.
A bottle cap.
Offhand.
At 50 yards. (With witnesses!)
It was the FIRST time I'd ever even held the gun.
I'd be lying if it wasn't almost a sexual experience.

Alaska Fishing Guide/Farmer: Tools are tools are tools, and each has its place. Don't remove that alternator with a hammer, yo. If I get a chance to settle down and shoot for real, the only gun I reach for is my S510. Every time. That gun just feels so good.
If I were to shoot on the go, out of my truck--which I would never do--I'd go for something shorter. Something as short as possible.

Finally... The Dad in me: I don't have _time_ to settle down and shoot for real... to truly scope and "hunt". The vast majority of my shooting takes place spontaneously because I'm on the farm 6 days a week, 12 hours per day. If I could, I would shoot out of my truck while I manage the farm and drive from field to field and see ground squirrels running around and offering themselves to me. But I can't. If I could, though, I'd use the tool that enables me to do that, easily.

Because the rest of the time, I want to spend with my family.

[kzz1kaw]

I have both, each has it's use
got a long HW110 fac really long and a Kozak compact, it gets shot the most
next to buy is a Zbroia Sapsan 

With you on the sapsan👍🏾😎

[Vee3]

Right there with ya Ribbs....
Along with all you said.. I'm a long hair. I'm not into my hair being pulled like some may be. Way too much going on right next to my face,ear and hair.

While back a fellow GTA member told me he'd recently pulled the trigger on an (IIRC) Edgun R5 .30 with the bolt open. He said it was really xxxxxxx loud. 

[Joekrooz]

To each their own. Lots of opinions here that are stated as facts.  Beauty is in the eye of the gun holder imo.

[avator]

'zactly Joe.

[Ribbonstone]

Put it away and got out some of the "normal" rifles.  That might have been a mistke so far as bullpups are concerned as the normal rifles were just so user-friendly.


Think that to really like bullpups as well as several here do, I'd pretty much have to dedicate my time to pullpups.  Use them enough, and likely they'd feel "right" and the traditional rifles would feel "off".....kindmy experience with springers.  Not rthat I can't get use to them and shoot them well, just that I have to pretty well dedicate my shooting time to the breed.

[Tommyzgunz]

Should I reiterate what said in my first post?

Full-length barrel in compact package.  Good for offhand shooting with the gun held in close to the body.  Locations?  Think tree-stands.  Tight quarters- not just dense forest but dense forest with heavy underbrush.  A good example is new-growth woods here in VA where creepers and waist-to-head high plants (not just trees) are all you really see.  I could see them being very effective in a cherry-picker or bucket truck doing pest control-less gun overhanging the edge of a long drop, too.  I had to shoot a lot out of bucket-trucks during my stint in pest control- never was fond of the overhang with either a pumper or springer... though I also had to shoot pigeons suspended from a 5-point harness 30 feet above the CA Aqueduct in Morgan Hill underneath an overpass- and I would have given several bodyparts for a bullpup at that time!

A carbine by definition is typically a shortened rifle, so while a carbine is great at mobility, the bullpup is even better if you want a full length barrel.  Some bullpups are horrible designs.  The Hatsans are just top-heavy and quite ugly- despite being very functional tools.  The Taipain and EdGuns are the opposite end of that spectrum.

Ultimately, bullpups have some functionality advatages over standard rifles, just as rifles have some over bullpups.  I think ultimately, it's a choice much like wearing shorty boots versus mid-calf boots.  Each has advantages.

Hey don't insult my Hatsan flashpup , lol. Just kidding. Here in Ga the hunting woods could get quite thick as well and although I have a few  PCP rifles I wanted a bullpup for those times I want to venture into the thick stuff.

[Tommyzgunz]

I've recently started using a bullpup. I like the way it handles. Half way between a pistol and rifle. Also, I can have a full length barrel without requiring a super long hard case. That makes for a more compact/efficient package and easier transport.

There is no scope in the way of the loading port so they are very easy to single load. My standard configuration scoped PCPs are awkward to single load so I almost always use magazines with them.

For precision shooting, balance is nice in the sitting and kneeling positions.

the portability is another reason I added the flashpup as well. I have a full bed silverado which isn't an issue for any rifles  at all. But I also have a compact car that has tremendous gas mileage and for those car accessible areas I can put that flashpup in that compact car trunk and take it anywhere instead of trying to squeeze the rifle case in the passenger seat. I love rifles but adding the one flashpup really opened up the different ways I can go without  always having to take the truck and use twice the gas.

[Tommyzgunz]

Did measure....more like 1" higher.  But bullpups aren't the only design that requires that kind of high mounting; AirForce,Rex,and others also need a pretty high scope mount because of their straight stocking (Well...it's not really a "stock" is it?)...so it's not a problem unique to bullpups...just something straight stocking requires.

Chuckinohio's description seems spot on for me and offhand shooting.  Shooting it today (off hand) It did feel better balanced when I used the forward folded bipod legs as my left hand's support (uncomfortable shape and a bit springy..but increasing the distance between my hands did seem to settle it down better).

I couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn with a bullpup till Motörhead showed me how to stand and hold them correctly now I’m much much better. It isn’t a natural feeling thing to stand 90 degrees to the target with your elbows pinched into your sides but it sure stabilizes the short lively muzzle

Awesome tip for the bullpup style. Ive been shooting it the same as any other rifle. I'm going to try that 90 degree stance and tight too body stance and see if it helps me.

[Tommyzgunz]

Did measure....more like 1" higher.  But bullpups aren't the only design that requires that kind of high mounting; AirForce,Rex,and others also need a pretty high scope mount because of their straight stocking (Well...it's not really a "stock" is it?)...so it's not a problem unique to bullpups...just something straight stocking requires.

Chuckinohio's description seems spot on for me and offhand shooting.  Shooting it today (off hand) It did feel better balanced when I used the forward folded bipod legs as my left hand's support (uncomfortable shape and a bit springy..but increasing the distance between my hands did seem to settle it down better).

I couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn with a bullpup till Motörhead showed me how to stand and hold them correctly now I’m much much better. It isn’t a natural feeling thing to stand 90 degrees to the target with your elbows pinched into your sides but it sure stabilizes the short lively muzzle

Yup ... Got to get those elbows in along side your ribs and the PUP becomes super stable to shoot offhand.  In all honesty can shoot a PUP offhand far better than a long gun.
There just different, some will like them or own one for the sake of having a different type gun, where others simply can't or won't even care.

Ask yourself this .... If RIFLES and so great, why have a PISTOL      Same argument, many similar reasons to the PUP debate.

This threads dead IMO.

I'm glad I followed this thread because I've been keeping elbows tight to body with a regular stance and that definitely   helps but I never though of turning 90 degrees to target so I'm anxious to try that.

[Hoople]

Anybody know a price or the whereabouts of the Zbroia Sapsan? Have only seen it on their web-sight.

[jarmstrong]

Back in April, Zbroia answered my email and replied that the production of the Sapsan was scheduled to begin in June
British preorder sites are asking 900 Pounds about $1200 retail, some will sell for less
HPAexpert store answered only my first email with, they don't know yet, call back in a couple of days. Since then no answer to email, text or phone, it goes to voice mail....that does not help sales
I am going to get one, even if I have to order it from a store in Europe(not England)

[kzz1kaw]

Back in April, Zbroia answered my email and replied that the productiom of the Sapsan was scheduled to begin in June
British preorder sites are asking 900 Pounds about $1200 retail, some will sell for less
HPAexpert store answered only my first email with they don't know yet, call back in a couple of days.Since then no answer to email, text or phone, it goes to voice mail....that does not help sales
I am going to get one, even if I have to order it from a store in Europe(not England)

+1😎👍🏾

[Hoople]

Jack thanks. I just sent an email to Joe B. asking if he is going to sell the Saspan, availability, and price. Hopefully I will hear back.

[K.O.]

Look at it this way... IT is about K.I.S.S.

would rather keep track of hold over than hold under and hold over...the higher the scope the more scope and rifle cant effect... can't...see the sense in adding more things to account for/ track / train my form for... I loved Dads Remmy 512 and early T22 was pretty dang good ammo...if it was above M.O.A. at 50 yards it was me or me misjudging wind...

Point is there is a feel and balance to a rifle that feels very natural...just like feeling your own rhythms...it is a pleasing feel... the ponderous Mrod does not have it.... My T.C. contender did among others... a Disco has it the Max almost has it.. the little spa has it...
 the Buccaneers have it... my little fleet of 13xx/hybrid pumpers have it... It allows me to concentrate on reading the wind and judging wind only... off a rock shooting sticks the ground prone side tree rested etc...
 
So for me the added needs of a pup do not fit...and the balance is off...why should I change my whole way of doing things after 50 years...I know that f it can be done with a pup I can do it with a carbine or even a long 19" barreled carbine...

The pups just do not fit my Zen/ Rhythms that let the rifle be an natural extension... rather than a consciously used tool...

So yeah though have handled a few pups... after 50 years... do not feel there is enough benefit to having one to change my way of doing things.....

[Ribbonstone]

Rethinking the bullup-configuration.
Major plus points seem to be:

1. It's short.
2. It is back heavy....which makes it swing/movee quickly.
3. Style points for being a bull pup.

So I did a rethink.... maybe nothing wrong with the  breed...just that I';ve been using it wrong.

Short and back heavy would be plus points for close quarters and rapid sighting/shooting.

Not knocking the accuracy or power, it can shoot as well as other PCP's in it's price range.

After a bit of shooting with a lighter/simple 4X AO scope vs a long heavy 6-24X scope...am going to change a few things to reinforce the positive atttibutes and re-test with a smaller/lighter scope (likely somtheing like a 1-6X FFP,AO, small scope...somthing I'd think would be more at home on an AR 15.


Can predict some howling at that. DId say that it shot as well as anything else? Can shoot it as well as the others from a bench,solid bi-pod, or even cross sticks,so I'll just have to take on faith that a more expensive bullpup would shoot with others in it's price class.

But is has to do something "better" to earn a place....and maybe ther "better" is in going with the short/rear balanced flow rahter than fighting it. 

Isn't that why short versions of long rifles were invented?

Maybe not....but I'll hunt up an appropriate scope in that direction and find out.

(Just to say...am not quoting anyones post (at least not intentionally).

[drewciferpike]

After a bit of shooting with a lighter/simple 4X AO scope vs a long heavy 6-24X scope...am going to change a few things to reinforce the positive atttibutes and re-test with a smaller/lighter scope (likely somtheing like a 1-6X FFP,AO, small scope...somthing I'd think would be more at home on an AR 15.

This is a REALLY important point! My old truck gun (Talon SS) and my Ataman carbine both felt "wrong" with a large scope. Really top-heavy. The long gun could take it, but I simply prefer smaller scopes, regardless. I found that the smaller guns lent themselves to "weird" field shooting (resting against a tree, leaning over a fence, etc) with smaller scopes, so I tended to use them more and more because I could confidently take the shot (I could hold them steady, with less effort).

[Kinetic45^]

I have a powerful .357 Pitbull that off the bench has great but off hand was a hard Airgun to shoot well.
And yes, putting my left elbow against my chest and turning more helped but something just was not right.

One thing I figured out I was just using too much scope.  So tried an old 2x7 I had at 4X and that was better.

Then I tried a Holosun HS507C reflex sight (on a 7/8"" Picatinny riser block) I had laying around and the whole character of the rifle changed. Now this is not a target rifle but is a hunting rifle, for 100 yards max and mostly 20 to 60 yards.  And I am shooting stuff with lethal zones of 2" or more.  Now the rifle does not seem too tall and tippy like others were mentioning. Plus, the accuracy offhand is some of the best I've ever gotten in my life... 1-1/4" groups at 50 yards with this rifle is pretty good in my book!!!!! [Note that on the bench this rifle will do 1/2" to 3/4" groups repeatedly at 50 yes.] After rereading this, I see I forgot to say that I am getting 2" groups at 100 yards, smaller than you would expect based on the 50 yard... the reflex sight really works for me there with the dot.

Also, I added a Magpul AFG-2 angled foregrip in front of the trigger guard and it works as a palm rest or when pulling my elbow in close, the angle actually is perfect where before the wrist angle was uncomfortable just placed under the stock.

Totally changed the handling and shooting of the rifle I was a little disappointed in to one that is easy to like.

Perhaps those who did not feel comfortable with their bullpups just were trying to set them up wrong.