GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: oldnamvet on May 04, 2019, 10:38:21 PM
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Supposedly the advantages of the gas ram are:
Here are the benefits of the Nitro Piston:
Smoother cocking
Smoother shooting
No spring torque
No spring fatigue, even if you leave it cocked for hours
Functions perfectly in cold weather
Lasts longer than a metal spring
If all this is true, why are spring piston rifles still being produced and thriving in the market?
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Supposedly the advantages of the gas ram are:
Here are the benefits of the Nitro Piston:
Smoother cocking
Smoother shooting
No spring torque
No spring fatigue, even if you leave it cocked for hours
Functions perfectly in cold weather
Lasts longer than a metal spring
If all this is true, why are spring piston rifles still being produced and thriving in the market?
Tom
I have both spring piston and gas ram break-barrels plus a few pumpers.
Here is what I think... OK ?
Best Wishes - Tom
Here are the Claimed benefits of the Nitro Piston:
Smoother cocking > Not necessarily, I have a re-built & tuned Stoger X-3 by SteveP-52 that is the smoothest cocker & shooter that I have.
Smoother shooting > Not Necessarily See ^
No spring torque > True
No spring fatigue, even if you leave it cocked for hours > True
Functions perfectly in cold weather > Mine work ok in cold weather but there will be a decrease in ram pressure. I have shot mine at -20F
A spring will work just as good or better in "really cold weather". (provided there is NO spring tar or heavy Lub in the piston area.)
Lasts longer than a metal spring > Maybe.... but if you get a bad ram..maybe not.
I have a Vantage with the original ram in it. About 9 yrs old & still shooting strong.
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Supposedly the advantages of the gas ram are:
Here are the benefits of the Nitro Piston:
Smoother cocking
Smoother shooting
No spring torque
No spring fatigue, even if you leave it cocked for hours
Functions perfectly in cold weather
Lasts longer than a metal spring
If all this is true, why are spring piston rifles still being produced and thriving in the market?
A different point of view!
"Smoother cocking"
Not necessarily true because a coil spring with properly fitted snug spring guides are indeed smooth. A lot of "cocking roughness" has nothing to do with the coil spring but the sliding piston and cocking lever components sliding under pressure. The only difference between "rammers" and "springers" is the spring (coil or gas), the other components such as the piston, piston latching mechanism and piston seal are similar.
"Smoother shooting"
Perhaps true since factory springer setups normally use loose fitting spring guides that allow the spring to oscillate/twang/vibrate with the shot. However a properly fitted spring guide and top hat will kill twang and vibration. Considering that the "rammer" requires more cocking effort than the "springer" for equal velocity, plus the "rammer" shot cycle is sharper than the "springer" I prefer a properly fitted spring kit. Also, due to the "rammers" sharp shot cycle they're notorious for "scope killing". Also, the sharper "rammer" shot cycle means that a rammer is also more "hold sensitive" than a "springer".
"No spring torque"
This is indeed true and this term used by tuners to sell "springer" tunes. I've personally never noticed that any minute twisting during the shot cycle due to "spring torque" to be an issue with my HW springers. A couple 50 yard groups shot with my recoiling springers while sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks.......
(https://i.imgur.com/8SZm6IEl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/v6Ug0yHl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/d5v1VdPl.jpg)
"No spring fatigue, even if you leave it cocked for hours"
Well.....a "gas ram" contains gas under pressure ALL the time, even when not cocked (The Theoben ram is charged to about 800psi before cocking) and sealed with "orings" (or other rubber seal) and they are indeed known to leak down at times. The high end Theoben rams they can be disassembled and resealed when needed, but you still need a high pressure pump to restore the internal pressure...........
(https://i.imgur.com/TKJId7Kl.png)
The cheap "Crosman type" rams are disposable and can't be recharged........
(https://i.imgur.com/0lAZjqWl.png)
As far as the coil spring is concerned, when living in West Virginia I often left my .177 Beeman R9 cocked for a couple hours during squirrel hunts and the Maccari aftermarket spring (now caller ARH Air Rifle Headquarters) and I would get about 2 years of service shooting roughly 10,000 shots per year, then $20 and a half hour later the gun would be "re-powered" and good for several more years.
"Functions perfectly in cold weather"
Really???? I would THINK that cold weather would reduce the internal ram precharge pressure and hot weather would increase the internal ram precharge pressure. If "functions perfectly" means that the pellet comes out of the barrel then I agree. LOL....even atmospheric conditions such as humidity, barometric pressure and temperature will affect the poi after the pellet leaves the barrel. If "functions perfectly" means the "rammer" has a more stable poi under all atmospheric conditions than a coil spring......I'm skeptical. LOL...the piston seal itself is affected by temperature causing a variable poi and the "rammer" has a "rubber" piston seal just like the "springer".
"Lasts longer than a metal spring"
LOL....that all depends of both the ram used in a "rammer" and the coil spring used in the "springer". When I used to keep track of the shot count when I had a .177 Beeman R10 I bought a Maccari "soft spring kit" (before I started home rolling my own spring kits based on Maccari springs) and after 20,000 shots the Maccari spring still shot .177 cal 7.9 grain domes at 905ish fps which was only 5fps less than the 910ish fps when new. LOL....atmospheric variations and the successive shots over the chrony can vary more than that.
"If all this is true, why are spring piston rifles still being produced and thriving in the market?"
Hummm.....maybe all the above are simply sales pitches to sell guns to new shooters. I've shot piston class field target matches for a few decades and I've noticed that the shooters who show up with a "low cost rammer" don't continue with the "rammer" and change the gun to a "springer", or more likely one the newer lower cost PCPs.
LOL.....for a few seasons now, when I show up at a field target match to shoot "hunter class" with my .177 HW95 springer I'm usually the only "piston shooter" and "win" 1st.2nd, & 3rd place all by myself! :o
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If all this is true, why are spring piston rifles still being produced and thriving in the market?
They are usually cheaper however it seems like a lot of high end break barrels have them too but these high end guns also don't have the issues in Tommy Boys claimed benefit list (e.g. they are smooth cocking, smoother shooting, less hold sensitive, etc.).
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If all this is true, why are spring piston rifles still being produced and thriving in the market?
Gas rams can leak, which can be a pain; they need to be re-sealed and pumped up again. Thus, the need for a PCP air pump. However, this can be a benefit too as you can adjust gun velocity if desired... instead of replacing the spring or clipping coils.
Gas rams are smoother, but the ones I've tried required a steady force throughout the cocking cycle. True Springers, on the other hand, start hard and get easier near towards the end of the cocking motion. I prefer the latter... ;)
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If all this is true, why are spring piston rifles still being produced and thriving in the market?
Random dumb thought but springs are easier to make, likely less expense to make than gas rams and more to potentially go wrong with a gas ram than a spring making for more customer service hassles, especially if you get a bad batch and now have say 2000 rifles with bad ones in them. Not all gas rams can be tinkered with either. Hatsan you can if you're careful. Crosman I believe are sealed units and not adjustable. The offerings from Diana and the new Sig ASP I can't speak for having never seen either and don't recall anyone saying they've been inside one to have a look at the rams. While you can do any number of things to a spring powered rifle, not all those tuning tricks can be done to a gas rammed gun, especially if you have a sealed ram.
Also read enough on this forum to know even the high end rifles suffer from any number of possible issues. Just because you pay a premium, doesn't mean you'll get a trouble free rifle and it's been well documented in any number of Gates here.
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About temperature sensitivity.
I don't have a springer to compare, but I have a nitro piston, and I spent some time to chrono it in different temperature conditions to setup ballistic calculator correct. Here are results:
(http://i67.tinypic.com/w22dts.jpg)
From 0-25C Speed is calculated correct now (clean barrel), later when it become warmer, I will check above 25C. Below 0C, I avoid shooting.
POI @100m shift 10 cm, 5-25 C. 1 dot, at similar barometric pressure and humidity. Verified by actual shooting.
Here are other settings if anyone need.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/3446x6x.jpg)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/imtfn8.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/1z6a9w7.jpg)
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I have both and don't see any of the claimed benifits of the gas ram in use. It comes down to the quality of the gun and tune, not the power plant. My gas ram rifle is more hold sensitive than either of my spring piston rifles, but that may be just due to its power level. They tested the temp sensitivity due to cold on American Airgunner by putting 2 rifles in a deep freezer then shooting them. The gas ram was the worse of the 2 they tested.
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I think in the largest calibers (.25 and .30) you end up with a more forgiving airgun if it uses gas-ram. My Hatsan 95QE is a .25 as as it has "aged" it seems to be completely indifferent to how I hold it. The thing I aim at (99% of the time it is a squirrel) is hit.
I'll qualify that I've only shot one .25 steel-spring springer- fresh out of the box so not broken in yet. Aside from the much more prominent twang, it shot accurately but was far more hold sensitive.
Out of the box and without any tuning/cleaning/adjustment, the gas piston guns shoot better, especially at magnum power levels. Once tuned, though steel spring guns do excellent. Operative words: Once tuned. Not everybody wants to tune.
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Sometimes SIMPLE is good enough!
Coil spring air rifles are unlikely to be completely displaced any time soon.
I'm uncertain which marketing department came up with the term "gas ram", but I try NOT to use it since IMO it is not really correct.
They are BOTH springs. One is a dirt simple tempered metal wire spiral, the other is a high pressure (1000-3000 psi) compressed gas (air or nitrogen) cylinder with a sliding piston, internal lubrication (oil), a sliding piston SEAL, and sometimes a port w/checkvalve for degassing and refilling.
I'll use Crosman as an example. Until recently their coil spring was $6 and the equivalent fpe nitrogen gas spring was $27 when you ordered parts over the phone. Seems quite reasonable based on the complexity of the parts.
Most don't seem to understand how the two differ so I'll try to explain here.
Coil springs are rated by force/inch of deflection, like ~40lbs/in for the Crosman spring.
Gas springs are a bit different in that the force/displacement curve is MUCH flatter.
Both springs store the SAME amount of potential energy for each shot!
see attached graph...
Preload is ~2” for the coil spring.
Preload is ~0.2” for the gas spring
Displacement (piston travel) for both springs is ~4”
Same ~53 ft-lbs energy is stored in BOTH springs.
Stored ENERGY is the AREA under the curve for each line between 2" and 6" (4" displacement).
This is consistent for a typically 16 fpe (~30% efficiency) springer.
Note:
Coil spring rate at k~40 lbs/inch with 2" preload will need 80-240 lbs from start to piston lock.
This is WHY cocking springers starts relatively easy and gets HARDER.
Estimated Nitrogen pressure is ~70bar for the Crosman geometry gas spring and this translates to 140-180 lbs from start to piston lock.
This is WHY cocking the Nitro Piston rifles starts HARDER than equivalent springers, effort stays fairly constant, and effort is actually LIGHTER than equivalent springers just before piston latch.
I have many air rifles with coil springs and gas/air springs. I enjoy shooting all of them. When EVERYTHING is working normally, there is NO clear winner here based solely on the source of the stored energy.
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I have a few gas rams but I really don't care for them. I prefer springers. It's as simple as that. I am enjoying co2's a little now but it's just so easy. After shooting my new AR2078 T.H. and AR2078B I thought about a Chieftain till I remembered pumps, tanks, probes and all that. No thanks.
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I recently tried my first gas ram rifle, a Diana AM03 Stealth .22. It'll be for sale @ the GTA gathering, cheap. Give me a well tuned springer any day.
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These companies are in the game to make money. Many times perception of value sells products. When you look at what companies like Crossman are trying to do, that is grabb a bunch of the PB market in the US. If it says Hemi on the side or shoots a claimed 1200 fps that sells. When the real truth is almost all cars and trucks on the road have some form of a hemi head, and speed by itself does not make a good air rifle. The perception is what sells. I think the gas ram the way it has been marketed and sold in the US is really more about perception the reality.
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I've got one HE gas ram for the only reason it's good for: killing things. Since I don't do that often the gun has stayed in tune and up to service since I took it out of the box 20 years ago.
Despite this plus added for the HE gas rams made today at lower cost than the antiquated Eliminator (and even the RX2 by Ruger) I can't say how useful they'd be to frequent shooting day in and day out.
However I love my springers with coils better for ease of shooting!
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I値l take a tuned spring piston gun over a gas piston version any day.
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I値l take a tuned spring piston gun over a gas piston version any day.
Never had a gas piston. Don't need one.
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I値l take a tuned spring piston gun over a gas piston version any day.
Why in the long run it is just two different ways to accomplish the same task.
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Oops double post :(
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If you get a gas ram from the big box store (read that: sub $200) its likely over-powered and violent to shoot
Ive got one of the original Benjamin NPSS soft stock rifles in .22 . Very nice gun to shoot--after you get the hang of what its doing. The sub$100 f4 fury is harsh, overpowered.
GasRams are great, BUT they need to be matched to the gun's audience and expected usage.
Speed sells, but these cheap rammed guns are NOT an example of what the benefits of the power plant can be.
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I値l take a tuned spring piston gun over a gas piston version any day.
Why in the long run it is just two different ways to accomplish the same task.
Yes......both a gas and coil spring accomplish the same task, however the shot cycle is different. The gas ram shot cycle is harsher than a coil spring shot cycle with a similar weight gun shooting at similar velocities and it takes more cocking effort vs the coil spring. Also, the gas ram shot cycle is a known "scope buster".
Decades ago I shot a stock .25 cal Beeman Kodiac (rebadged Webley Patriot springer) the put out a measured 30fpe with Diana Domes and I had no problem cocking the gun for a half dozen shots. Then I had the opportunity to shoot a .20 cal Beeman Crow Magnum (rebadged Theoben Eliminator rated at 25fpe and 28fpe in .25 cal) and it was a GUT BUSTER to cock even though it was putting out less fpe. After shooting 3 shots my "cocking arm" was shot and I decided that if I were given an Eliminator I'd simply sell it.
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There's a reason spring guns have stood the test of time, easy to work on and they just flat out work.
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There's a reason spring guns have stood the test of time, easy to work on and they just flat out work.
Same could be said for gas springs. Easy to work on, if it fails they don't cost much to replace.
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I値l take a tuned spring piston gun over a gas piston version any day.
Why in the long run it is just two different ways to accomplish the same task.
Yes......both a gas and coil spring accomplish the same task, however the shot cycle is different. The gas ram shot cycle is harsher than a coil spring shot cycle with a similar weight gun shooting at similar velocities and it takes more cocking effort vs the coil spring. Also, the gas ram shot cycle is a known "scope buster".
Decades ago I shot a stock .25 cal Beeman Kodiac (rebadged Webley Patriot springer) the put out a measured 30fpe with Diana Domes and I had no problem cocking the gun for a half dozen shots. Then I had the opportunity to shoot a .20 cal Beeman Crow Magnum (rebadged Theoben Eliminator rated at 25fpe and 28fpe in .25 cal) and it was a GUT BUSTER to cock even though it was putting out less fpe. After shooting 3 shots my "cocking arm" was shot and I decided that if I were given an Eliminator I'd simply sell it.
Couldn't agree more Ed. My crosman titan gp killed two scopes (both were replace under warranty), cocking effort and shot cycle harshness is quite a bit more than even my spring tuned guns that shoot in the 17-19 fpe range. The gas ram in the titan lost power at less than 2k pellets down the pipe, it's now doing 10.4 fpe. The titan has an accurate barrel so I'm going to replace the guts with a maccari spring and a fitted guide. I've shot a friend's hw90 (gas rammed), it's a nice hunter but I wouldn't want to plink with it all evening. So far I've replaced exactly zero maccari springs in my tuned guns, some are north of 15k pellets down the pipe.
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My Beeman RX2 is easier to shoot accurately than my laminate HW77K was. The 77k had Macarri internals and about every variation of tune I could think to try. At the end it even had a short stroke piston nose from Tinbum in England. The short stroke helped the most but this RX2 is still easier to shoot accurately.
I personally like the quick shot cycle of the gas ram. It doesn't seem as fussy as a coil wound springer about how it is held. Is it a nicer shooting experience than my 9ish foot pound HW50S with barrel weight? No. But does it shoot much flatter and resist the wind better and still put the pellets where I want them to go? Yes.
I'm nowhere near being a prepper, but I see the shtf and bug out scenarios come up every once in a while on the forums. Between HWs, FWBs, Crosmans, heck, even my USFT, the RX2 is the gun I would want for the no more compressed air, no more electricity, no more grocery store, no more world as we know it scenario. The RX2 gas ram is not my favorite gun, but it does have a place in my stable cuz it's different than the rest of them.
(And by different, I mean able to generate 19fpe without any auxiliary equipment and deliver that energy right where I want it to go-that, in and of itself, is cool)
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I値l take a tuned spring piston gun over a gas piston version any day.
Why in the long run it is just two different ways to accomplish the same task.
Yes......both a gas and coil spring accomplish the same task, however the shot cycle is different. The gas ram shot cycle is harsher than a coil spring shot cycle with a similar weight gun shooting at similar velocities and it takes more cocking effort vs the coil spring. Also, the gas ram shot cycle is a known "scope buster".
Decades ago I shot a stock .25 cal Beeman Kodiac (rebadged Webley Patriot springer) the put out a measured 30fpe with Diana Domes and I had no problem cocking the gun for a half dozen shots. Then I had the opportunity to shoot a .20 cal Beeman Crow Magnum (rebadged Theoben Eliminator rated at 25fpe and 28fpe in .25 cal) and it was a GUT BUSTER to cock even though it was putting out less fpe. After shooting 3 shots my "cocking arm" was shot and I decided that if I were given an Eliminator I'd simply sell it.
Come over and shoot my Elim!
The Eliminator was Theoben's invention and Beeman renamed them Crow Magnums with a different stock--so it's the other way around,
Also, I had Eliminators and Crow Magnums in .20, .22, and .25 TWO times before keeping the .25.
That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts.
Once exposed to an Eliminator from England from the original days before others hopped on the "nitro piston" or other named gas rams things went cheap with less personal labor.
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I値l take a tuned spring piston gun over a gas piston version any day.
Why in the long run it is just two different ways to accomplish the same task.
Yes......both a gas and coil spring accomplish the same task, however the shot cycle is different. The gas ram shot cycle is harsher than a coil spring shot cycle with a similar weight gun shooting at similar velocities and it takes more cocking effort vs the coil spring. Also, the gas ram shot cycle is a known "scope buster".
Decades ago I shot a stock .25 cal Beeman Kodiac (rebadged Webley Patriot springer) the put out a measured 30fpe with Diana Domes and I had no problem cocking the gun for a half dozen shots. Then I had the opportunity to shoot a .20 cal Beeman Crow Magnum (rebadged Theoben Eliminator rated at 25fpe and 28fpe in .25 cal) and it was a GUT BUSTER to cock even though it was putting out less fpe. After shooting 3 shots my "cocking arm" was shot and I decided that if I were given an Eliminator I'd simply sell it.
Come over and shoot my Elim!
The Eliminator was Theoben's invention and Beeman renamed them Crow Magnums with a different stock--so it's the other way around,
Also, I had Eliminators and Crow Magnums in .20, .22, and .25 TWO times before keeping the .25.
That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts.
Once exposed to an Eliminator from England from the original days before others hopped on the "nitro piston" or other named gas rams things went cheap with less personal labor.
"I had Eliminators and Crow Magnums in .20, .22, and .25 TWO times before keeping the .25."
You sir have "deep pockets" and a lot of tolerance for large, heavy, hard cocking piston guns to buy (I assume) so many Eliminators.
"That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts."
Hummmm.......Why did you feel the need of a $100 rubber lined scope mount to save your scopes from the recoil of a heavy 11 pound (with scope and mount) rammer?
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What I envisioned as a fairly simple questions has enlightened me with the many points and opinions. Looks like there are good points to both springers and rammers. Having had only pumpers, springers, and PCP it looks like I will have to invest in a gas ram rifle to broaden my experiences. Maybe a 30 cal one if they make them. I believe the Hatsan is a springer?
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Tom,
You are correct.
The springers are out of date and virtually worthless.
Everyone should box them up and send them immediately to me, here in JellyBelly land.
I will keep the worthless things hidden away and away from public view.
I might even re-imburse you for shipping. ;)
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I値l take a tuned spring piston gun over a gas piston version any day.
My thoughts exactly.
I love springers and would be glad to see someone actually build a better mousetrap. But IMHO, the claimed benefits of a gas ram are just marketing hype. Steel springs still do the job better IMHO.
R
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What I envisioned as a fairly simple questions has enlightened me with the many points and opinions. Looks like there are good points to both springers and rammers. Having had only pumpers, springers, and PCP it looks like I will have to invest in a gas ram rifle to broaden my experiences. Maybe a 30 cal one if they make them. I believe the Hatsan is a springer?
They're Vortex gas rammed.
Turkish Walnut stock:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/hatsan-135-qe-vortex-air-rifle?m=3976 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/hatsan-135-qe-vortex-air-rifle?m=3976)
Synthetic stock:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/hatsan-mod-130s-vortex-qe-breakbarrel-air-rifle?m=4586 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/hatsan-mod-130s-vortex-qe-breakbarrel-air-rifle?m=4586)
I have more than a few of both springers and gas rams and both have their plus and minus sides but in the end, if those gas rams go bad, they're also very easily and less expensively converted to springers.
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Springer verses gas ram in my opinion it doesn't make much difference one way or the other!
Is the glass half full or half empty?
Shore there are suttle differences but for the average shooter It doesn't Amount to a hill of beans. As one gentleman stated. Weather it be a springer or gas ram it all boils down to the quality of the gun and tune.
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Ed nailed it earlier in this thread. Tuned coil spring guns are easier to shoot accurately than gas rams. If gas rams had any advantage at all, competition shooters would be using them. They aren't. Some still use spring piston guns though.
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On the matter of competition......
In the field target club that I'm part of, all but two of the shooters compete only with PCPs. Me and another guy like to shoot Open Class piston occasionally. The RX2 I mentioned above was purchased with the intent of using it for field target, if it proved to be accurate enough. So far I'm very impressed and planning on using it to compete. His gun is currently at the doctor's office getting better so I'm not in a big hurry with the RX2.
My takeaways so far have been that the RX2 can put out the higher fpe without becoming a rabid barrel of monkeys to shoot. Yes it has recoil, but it's QUICK, straight back, and well mannered. There's a reason that most die hard springer guys always talk about keeping em below 12 fpe and that reason is that a coil wound springer gets real hard to shoot, the higher up the power curve you go. This RX2 seems to allow me to shoot all the way up to 19fpe without accuracy suffering.
As far as competitions and airguns go, the piston class of guns are the minority in general. Most people aren't self masochists I guess.
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Exactly. When it comes to the shooting equipment, just ask yourself a simple question. Do they use it on competitions? That will give you an answer on accuracy and precision.
I am myself die hard springer, but if I have to go on airgun competition, I would choose PCP. If springer is condition, a small light .177 cal. airgun would be my choice.
When it comes to shooting, springers are good for learning, for that reason in some shooting clubs it is started with a springer. Or like in my case, for returning back in a form (I was out of shooting 20+ years). With a springer people learn importance of hold.
Sometime people ask me why I insist soo much on a magnum springer, and I shoot it 50-150m, and I would go for more if the range construction don't limit me. Because on those distances it record and exaggerate even the smallest mistakes I do. And that is exactly what I need, and use it for.
This was how I originally started, and at the end I was shooting targets at 400-600m using iron sight and yugoslav AK-47 in short brusts (with original yugoslav ammo and magazine). That is level which I am trying to get back. Then I would be ready for competition.
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My Benjamin Black Lightening Nitro Piston 2, a supposed upgrade from gen one Nitros was terrible.
The thing would do a five shot tight group then the next would be five wide.
It would do a 1" group at 25 yards and then do a 5" group with one being a flyer. then go to a 2" group,
then who knows what on the next group.
All the flyers were always very wide right, odd
I did everything, fed the gun heavy pellets of several makes, made sure I was subsonic and followed all the advice I could find.
I shoot my 12 year old Beeman R-10 springer just fine, good groups all the time with only a rare flyer so It's not me.
I gave up at 750 rounds and gave the Benjamin to my Local Gun dealer as a gift, or a curse, not sure what he will think.
Tried a Daisy 880 for some soft low power plinking, It died before It reached 75 shots fired, wally world gave me a full refund.
I'll never part with the R-10 but I must say I found the quiet power I was seeking In a Ruger American Rimfire.
The sub sonic 22 Long rifles scoot out of the barrel at 700 ish FPS and considering the weight of the bullet I'm
In the 35 to 40 ft lbs of energy at 50 plus yards with a very predictable trajectory.
Also found two long rifle hollow points that fly out below 1000 fps and are very very accurate.
This bolt action rim fire is dead still on Ignition just like a pcp and Is just as quiet as my springer.
My first group was a 5 shot 'W' as In all five target holes were touching, That made me happy :P
The only drawback is picking up the brass in my back yard,,, and 8 to 10 cents a shot....
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It is all a matter of preference. I have had harsh shooting springers and harsh shooting gas rams. I have found that my gas rams are a lot less hold sensitive than my spring guns. In fact the spring guns I have I de tune a lot of the time just to shoot more the way i like them. Most ot the time when I have killed a scope on a gas ram it is because it wasn't mounted right. I learned about that the hard way.
I have a couple of harsh shooting gas rams that are in synthetic stocks, (my wood stocks seem to shoot smoother recoil wise), those synth stocks I put modeling clay in to give it more balance and to absorb some of the felt recoil and they feel a lot smoother to me.
All in all I think it is a subjective thing as I don't find gas rams any harder to cock, than lets say one of the Hatsan spring guns, if I use the same technique to do it. Once again subjectivity of the perception of force needed is a personal thing. Just my two cents. I like them both, I'm not a "product snob" and prefer cheap rifles I can tinker into better shooting rifles. I guess I am the "trailer trash" guy of air guns, but it is the way I like 'em.
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I red on many places that people fill their stocks to add extra weight. So, I tried, and fill it with cat sand in a plastic bags.
Result was not good. So, I empty it back. Despite reviews are marking rifle, I have, as not very hold sensitive. I found it quite opposite, it reacts on a moon position, haircut I have, traffic noise etc. etc.
Best results I get when I minimise the contact, and just let it do things.
Attached target 100m week ago. First 2 are up/left, then I shifted POA and get 2 bottom/right, then I shifted POA again and rifle touched the sand bag, and it went down.
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It is all a matter of preference. I have had harsh shooting springers and harsh shooting gas rams. I have found that my gas rams are a lot less hold sensitive than my spring guns. In fact the spring guns I have I de tune a lot of the time just to shoot more the way i like them. Most ot the time when I have killed a scope on a gas ram it is because it wasn't mounted right. I learned about that the hard way.
I have a couple of harsh shooting gas rams that are in synthetic stocks, (my wood stocks seem to shoot smoother recoil wise), those synth stocks I put modeling clay in to give it more balance and to absorb some of the felt recoil and they feel a lot smoother to me.
All in all I think it is a subjective thing as I don't find gas rams any harder to cock, than lets say one of the Hatsan spring guns, if I use the same technique to do it. Once again subjectivity of the perception of force needed is a personal thing. Just my two cents. I like them both, I'm not a "product snob" and prefer cheap rifles I can tinker into better shooting rifles. I guess I am the "trailer trash" guy of air guns, but it is the way I like 'em.
"prefer cheap rifles I can tinker into better shooting rifles"
For years I tried to make cheap springers into the equivalent of my Beeman R9 & HW95 and have been unsuccessful to date!
The first "cheap to accurate" attempt was buying a .177 Crosman Quest decades ago when living in West Virginia. It was a cheap package deal of about $100 including the scope. The scope packaged with the gun was literal "trash" and replaced with a known good Bushnell Trophy scope. Scope didn't matter because that Quest would group no better than 1 1/2"ctc at 30 yards no matter what I did to it (fitted guides & trigger insert). Further study showed that a lot of the accuracy issues were due the Diana/Gamo style barrel pivot geometry of "pivot bolt in a sleeve in a hole in the barrel pivot block". With my Quest (a Chinese clone of a Gamo220) sleeve in the barrel pivot block had a rather sloppy fit and the fit between the pivot bolt and sleeve was also sloppy. The real issue however was the fact that the hole in the sleeve for the pivot bolt was eccentric to the OD of the sleeve which caused the sleeve to rotate every few shots. This rotation of the eccentrically bored sleeve caused the poi to rotate around the point of aim. I lathe cut a new sleeve that was indeed concentric and snug fitting to the bore in the barrel pivot block and this single modification reduced the terrible 1 1/2" ctc accuracy at 30 yards to a can rolling only accuracy of 1" ctc.
My next attempt was to buy a REAL Gamo440 on sale for $100 and found that after some internal work and a trigger insert to make the trigger useable I ended up with another "can roller". Matter of fact, after some home machined parts I had a cheap $19.95 Chinese B3 that shot twice as accurate as both the Crosman Quest and Gamo440.
The B iron sight group and scope group (6x Buris Compact) at 25 yards. LOL........must admit that the B3 was fitted with a home rolled oring sealed piston cap that increased the velocity 150fps vs the factory leather seal........
(https://i.imgur.com/5DINChKl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/PEzo26cl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/4HBPzQkl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FSk1RsLl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/FSk1RsLl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/TZWeUoLl.jpg)
Most recently I bought a .177 Remington Express "fer cheap" (under $100) and the 18 yard rather mediocre group also exhibits an "orbiting around the aim point"...........
(https://i.imgur.com/6DByrZfl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/4nbLUGjl.jpg)
Anywhoo......the Quest and Gamo440 were "land filled" when living in West Virginia and the "Remmy" is currently "in parts" due to lack of interest messing with it!
The last springer I bought was a .177 HW95 that was on sale for $299 + shipping ($330 total) and here are a few 18 yardgroups shot with the moderately priced HW offering with a couple different home tunes.........
(https://i.imgur.com/Lgs7wrAl.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/6jbM8Jwl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/ToROA6Vl.jpg)
LOL....even the cheap Winchester pellets from Tractor Supply grouped OK at 18 yards. (LOL....I pulled the 1st shot and then grouped 10 pellets to prove that the flier was "shooter induced" while swaying on the bucket.....
(https://i.imgur.com/sQJloh4l.jpg)
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Well Nced, seeing as you singled me out for MY preference, all I can say is you must be the expert for what everyone should like. My self I am more of a " to each their own", as far as opinions go. Also for the type of shooting I do I don't need a sub MOA rifle. Just one that shoots straight enough to hit what I aim at. Maybe you have a good salery and can afford top end guns, I don't and probably wouldn't spend that much money on a spring or ram air gun. Like I have said before one mans trash is another mans treasure. Mine are all pure gold to me.
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Well Nced, seeing as you singled me out for MY preference, all I can say is you must be the expert for what everyone should like. My self I am more of a " to each their own", as far as opinions go. Also for the type of shooting I do I don't need a sub MOA rifle. Just one that shoots straight enough to hit what I aim at. Maybe you have a good salery and can afford top end guns, I don't and probably wouldn't spend that much money on a spring or ram air gun. Like I have said before one mans trash is another mans treasure. Mine are all pure gold to me.
Fair enough, I apologize to you for directly responding to your "prefer cheap rifles I can tinker into better shooting rifles" statement with my unappreciated opinion based only on accuracy expectations. In the future I won't respond by disagreeing with your opinions.
I also "don't need a sub MOA rifle", however I do need something better than a 3 MOA shooter to do any field target shooting or pesting!
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I have a couple higher end rifles in a Beeman R9 .20 and an HW95 .22. Like Cole, I also like tinkering with less expensive rifles to make them better shooters but I guarantee neither of us ever go into it thinking we'll make them remotely close to any higher end rifle, it just ain't possible and we know it. Whole idea is just to smooth some rough edges, make a trigger a little better and take a so-so rifle to a decent backyard shooter and have some fun doing the tinkering.
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I have a couple higher end rifles in a Beeman R9 .20 and an HW95 .22. Like Cole, I also like tinkering with less expensive rifles to make them better shooters but I guarantee neither of us ever go into it thinking we'll make them remotely close to any higher end rifle, it just ain't possible and we know it. Whole idea is just to smooth some rough edges, make a trigger a little better and take a so-so rifle to a decent backyard shooter and have some fun doing the tinkering.
Right! I second the motion!
I tinker and shoot my HW50s, 30, R7 mostly!
The FWB Sport is the rifle above them but it is too perfect! It is also a pound heavier......
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I値l take a tuned spring piston gun over a gas piston version any day.
Why in the long run it is just two different ways to accomplish the same task.
Yes......both a gas and coil spring accomplish the same task, however the shot cycle is different. The gas ram shot cycle is harsher than a coil spring shot cycle with a similar weight gun shooting at similar velocities and it takes more cocking effort vs the coil spring. Also, the gas ram shot cycle is a known "scope buster".
Decades ago I shot a stock .25 cal Beeman Kodiac (rebadged Webley Patriot springer) the put out a measured 30fpe with Diana Domes and I had no problem cocking the gun for a half dozen shots. Then I had the opportunity to shoot a .20 cal Beeman Crow Magnum (rebadged Theoben Eliminator rated at 25fpe and 28fpe in .25 cal) and it was a GUT BUSTER to cock even though it was putting out less fpe. After shooting 3 shots my "cocking arm" was shot and I decided that if I were given an Eliminator I'd simply sell it.
Come over and shoot my Elim!
The Eliminator was Theoben's invention and Beeman renamed them Crow Magnums with a different stock--so it's the other way around,
Also, I had Eliminators and Crow Magnums in .20, .22, and .25 TWO times before keeping the .25.
That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts.
Once exposed to an Eliminator from England from the original days before others hopped on the "nitro piston" or other named gas rams things went cheap with less personal labor.
"I had Eliminators and Crow Magnums in .20, .22, and .25 TWO times before keeping the .25."
You sir have "deep pockets" and a lot of tolerance for large, heavy, hard cocking piston guns to buy (I assume) so many Eliminators.
"That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts."
Hummmm.......Why did you feel the need of a $100 rubber lined scope mount to save your scopes from the recoil of a heavy 11 pound (with scope and mount) rammer?
Ask either Craig Porter or Kevin Gilbride about the number of Elims I bought if you are calling me to question about deep pockets and such. I find offense at your line of talk and charts, as if you know it all and you do not know the Eliminator.
Secondly, I believe you are wrong thinking lighter pellets are easier on springs. It is not mechanically possible. Got a degree in Physics and Mechanical Engineering Nced?
Respectfully submitted.
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"That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts."
Hummmm.......Why did you feel the need of a $100 rubber lined scope mount to save your scopes from the recoil of a heavy 11 pound (with scope and mount) rammer?
Because, nced, the Dampa Mounts are permanently attached to the Eliminator (and Crow Magnum) by THE FACTORY and NOT added for another C note!
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The REAL reason that rams will not replace springs in high end guns is simply a matter of economics. Many higher end guns use a latching mechanism that goes through the spring. Impossible with a ram. Either type of propulsion can be spec'ed by the manufacturer to be a smooth shooter. There is room for both and both have many adherents. If you like one over the other, fine. DON'T BUY THE ONE YOU DON'T LIKE!!! No need to disrespect those that feel otherwise.
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Ha! I see mobilehomer had the same thought ^^^^^
I think the main reason you don't see rams on many higher end guns is because the best triggers (HW, AA, Diana) latch to a central rod in the piston, which normal gas springs can't accommodate. The HW90 and N-tec triggers are generally regarded as inferior to thier center-latching relatives. I know firsthand that my RX2 trigger could not be adjusted as crisply as a Rekord.
I personally love the quick, vibration-free shot cycle of rams, so I try to get all my springers to shoot that way with tune kits, aftermarket springs, or even a just a cut up soda bottle and some heavy tar. The nice thing about springers is that they are so tunable by changing spacing, piston weight, spring diameter, wire size, and coil count.
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"That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts."
Hummmm.......Why did you feel the need of a $100 rubber lined scope mount to save your scopes from the recoil of a heavy 11 pound (with scope and mount) rammer?
Because, nced, the Dampa Mounts are permanently attached to the Eliminator (and Crow Magnum) by THE FACTORY and NOT added for another C note!
I didn't know that, thanks for the feedback!
You mentioned that you've never had any scope damage with your "rammer" and I'd be interested in knowing what scope you use vs how many "shots per year".
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The REAL reason that rams will not replace springs in high end guns is simply a matter of economics. Many higher end guns use a latching mechanism that goes through the spring. Impossible with a ram. Either type of propulsion can be spec'ed by the manufacturer to be a smooth shooter. There is room for both and both have many adherents. If you like one over the other, fine. DON'T BUY THE ONE YOU DON'T LIKE!!! No need to disrespect those that feel otherwise.
"DON'T BUY THE ONE YOU DON'T LIKE!!! No need to disrespect those that feel otherwise."
Hummm......so is expressing differing personal points of view (point by point) is considered being "disrespectful"?
Oh well, no responding directly to comments in the future!
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Just buy what you need.
If you do field target, buy Steyr LG110 or similar.
If you do something else, buy something else.
I am shooting metal plates today, and doing it good with a rifle I have, and see no common sense reason why replacing it, as long as it do what it is suppose to do.
Today, metal plate on 162 yards. Hit.
https://youtu.be/eMNdGXMwT9Y (https://youtu.be/eMNdGXMwT9Y)
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The REAL reason that rams will not replace springs in high end guns is simply a matter of economics. Many higher end guns use a latching mechanism that goes through the spring. Impossible with a ram. Either type of propulsion can be spec'ed by the manufacturer to be a smooth shooter. There is room for both and both have many adherents. If you like one over the other, fine. DON'T BUY THE ONE YOU DON'T LIKE!!! No need to disrespect those that feel otherwise.
"DON'T BUY THE ONE YOU DON'T LIKE!!! No need to disrespect those that feel otherwise."
Hummm......so is expressing differing personal points of view (point by point) is considered being "disrespectful"?
Oh well, no responding directly to comments in the future!
NCED, you misunderstand my statement. I have read on other threads and from some members no longer here, people get personally attacked for their preferences, whether gun, scope or other things. It was a general statement. Differing points of view are always fine. We had a couple members here a while back that it was "their way or the highway" and they let everyone know it!! I LOVE your experience, knowledge and helping attitude.
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This thread reminds me of how on the astronomy forums once in a while there will be a heated debate about which is 'better' a refractor or a reflector.
They are both 'tools' that accomplish the same task in different ways. There is no 'best' and really boils down to a personal preference.
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Just buy what you need.
If you do field target, buy Steyr LG110 or similar.
If you do something else, buy something else.
I am shooting metal plates today, and doing it good with a rifle I have, and see no common sense reason why replacing it, as long as it do what it is suppose to do.
Today, metal plate on 162 yards. Hit.
https://youtu.be/eMNdGXMwT9Y (https://youtu.be/eMNdGXMwT9Y)
Looks like something other than an air rifle has shot that plate. ;D
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Yep, the spring piston is outdated for sure.
So is 30/30 Winchester.
.177 isn't big enough to hunt small game.
.223 is not enough gun for Whitetails.
I'm triggered
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Looks like something other than an air rifle has shot that plate. ;D
Yes. Not the air rifle. :D
It is homemade simple thing someone left on a range. There are all kinds of holes on it.
Actual target is an old abonded wasp nest just in a middle (about 1/2 MOA), yesterday, I didn't hit it.
Today, they are cutting the grass, so no shooting.
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BTW. As long as people buy and use something, it is not outdated, it will be produced as long as profit can be made with it. Just as bought and used.
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Well this was an interesting read-
I know very little about break barrel guns and I do have a couple
Also a side lever springer.
But what I did NOT read about here was what only Frank something and one other mentioned-
" the quick shot cycle of the gas ram."
I read a while back about somebody doing a test on these RAM guns
and it looked like most of them did shoot a lot faster cycle than spring ones did,.,., ?
That seems like it would be better but again everybody has their own feelings about things.
ME-
I LOVE an AIRGUN, The pure release of the air with NO recoil or bounce of any sort !!!
Either a pumper or PCP they just are just a joy to shoot with
being able to watch a pellet as it goes down range is fun for me.
Just
Sayn
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Yes, it is indeed fast. You can hear on a video I linked. Very loud springer, not backyard/neighbours friendly. When combined with a ricochet whistling, neighbours might think war had started. :D
In a begginig I tought something is wrong with a rifle. But after almost 2000 pellets, it is still the same. Crono OK, seals OK, it is just very loud springer (gas piston).
But powerfull too. It shoot JSB 18.13 at 28 ft-lb, and it is precise too. 1/2" group at 27 yd is good for a springer.
BTW I like shooting, and I don't care what is used (prefer springers in air gunning if have a choice). Spring, gas piston, PCP, CO2, PB.... .177 or .338 Lapua.... I don't care. Just targets and distances differ.
Spring or gas piston? Both is fine for me.
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"That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts."
Hummmm.......Why did you feel the need of a $100 rubber lined scope mount to save your scopes from the recoil of a heavy 11 pound (with scope and mount) rammer?
Because, nced, the Dampa Mounts are permanently attached to the Eliminator (and Crow Magnum) by THE FACTORY and NOT added for another C note!
I didn't know that, thanks for the feedback!
You mentioned that you've never had any scope damage with your "rammer" and I'd be interested in knowing what scope you use vs how many "shots per year".
I switched about 4 or 5 different scopes in the year 1999 and ended up using and leaving a Leupold VarXIII 4.5-14X with extended elevation turret for quick elevation changes. I hit a pigeon at a measured 91 yards with a .20 and killed a coyote with the .25 in the worst of weather: Arizona monsoon!
Since those animal shots I've had to kill some red squirrels at 30 yards but not much further than that.
Now, it is there for killing but I still shoot it a lot at steel silhouettes with all my other air guns.
I'd defend the Theoben to the end and just yesterday I had the opportunity to show it to Gipper! Now ask him what he thinks of my Elim!
Yours,
John
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Nitro Piston has a one big disadvantage - energy cant be adjusted. With spring airgun you can chop 1-2 coils and lower energy to make airgun less kicky and because of that more accurate. Pesonally the only gas ram which I could buy is the hw 90 or hatsan vortex. They can be disassemble, fixed, energy adjusted, soother crosman nitron piston etc is a big NO for me.
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I don't personally have a problem with the nitro piston and other cheap rams. As long as you take it for what it is- and that is a cheap air rifle capapble of taking a animal at close range.
They are not target rifes. Not show pieces. Not serious hunters other than squirrels or rabbits. It's a backyard bunny basher and close range pest rifle.
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"That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts."
Hummmm.......Why did you feel the need of a $100 rubber lined scope mount to save your scopes from the recoil of a heavy 11 pound (with scope and mount) rammer?
Because, nced, the Dampa Mounts are permanently attached to the Eliminator (and Crow Magnum) by THE FACTORY and NOT added for another C note!
I didn't know that, thanks for the feedback!
You mentioned that you've never had any scope damage with your "rammer" and I'd be interested in knowing what scope you use vs how many "shots per year".
I switched about 4 or 5 different scopes in the year 1999 and ended up using and leaving a Leupold VarXIII 4.5-14X with extended elevation turret for quick elevation changes. I hit a pigeon at a measured 91 yards with a .20 and killed a coyote with the .25 in the worst of weather: Arizona monsoon!
Since those animal shots I've had to kill some red squirrels at 30 yards but not much further than that.
Now, it is there for killing but I still shoot it a lot at steel silhouettes with all my other air guns.
I'd defend the Theoben to the end and just yesterday I had the opportunity to show it to Gipper! Now ask him what he thinks of my Elim!
Yours,
John
Thanks for the reply!
$1200 for a piston gun (with free scope mount) and $700 for a scope (on sale) certainly SHOULD make a good $1900 piston gun + scope, however I do find the scope settled on to be interesting. If I'm not mistaken (certainly could be) only two Leupold scopes will parallax down to 10 yards and they are the two "EFR" (Extended Focusing Range) models ........the 3-9 and the 6.5ﾗ20. The Leupold site is rather sparse not even listing the minimum parallax distance, however I'm guessing that the distance is either 50 yards or 100 yards. Regardless, as long as the "Leupy" works well for you you've made a good decision. I do a lot of hunter class field target shooting and I definitely need a sharp focus at a 10 yard 3/8" diameter killzone with "good scope rangefinding focus" so I'm more limited on scope choice.
I was wondering how a scope and piston seal would hold up over time. Seems to me that the long term weakness would be the oring seals and piston seal which is why I asked how many shots are on your Theoben. Here is a pic of an eroded Theoben piston seal but I really don't know how many shots.........
(https://i.imgur.com/DrDlzM2l.png)
When I was living in West Virginia I would shoot roughly a 1250 count box of CPLs per month (10,000 shots per year) and my factory piston seals would erode at the transfer port after thousands of shots.......
(https://i.imgur.com/kfIIHgal.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/fLJvtrzl.jpg)
LOL.....I solved my seal erosion issues by making an aluminum oring sealed piston cap to replace the factory HW "rubber seal" like this...........
(https://i.imgur.com/GyTMWD7l.jpg)
Currently I'm testing out an oring sealed piston cap made of molly filled 6/6 nylon and so far it's holding up...........
(https://i.imgur.com/V4vDYm5l.jpg)
Anywhoo......as mentioned previously, IMHO the weak part of piston guns (gas ram or coil spring) is the piston seal and when I read of owners of gas ram guns shooting for 10 years (or whatever) I tend to question the frequency of use simply based on my experience with springers of much less power. LOL....even the low powered FWB300 match rifle uses a metal piston seal ring instead of rubber, however they can last for 100s of thousands of shots...........
(https://i.imgur.com/wNsjFPbl.jpg)
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nced :
You shoot more in 1 year with 1 gun than I shoot in 5 years with all 16 of my guns.
Outside of the fall and winter hunting seasons, I don't shoot my guns that much. I have a Crosman Vantage that I bought when Crosman first came out with them. That was about 8 or 9 years ago..I think. It has held up really well but it only gets shot 6 months out of the year and even when it gets shot, that is not a lot. During the off-season, what I tend to shot the most, is my Sheridan Silver Streak.
I sincerely thank you for your feedback and sharing of your extensive knowledge. I always greatly appreciate your point of view, even if it runs contrary to mine at times. It gives me pause to think about things that I may have overlooked or not considered. I'll be looking forward to your future posts.
Best Wishes - Tom
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+1 to Toms last paragraph.
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I don't personally have a problem with the nitro piston and other cheap rams. As long as you take it for what it is- and that is a cheap air rifle capapble of taking a animal at close range.
They are not target rifes. Not show pieces. Not serious hunters other than squirrels or rabbits. It's a backyard bunny basher and close range pest rifle.
I don't see any reason why cheap gas rams would not be a target rifles. If you ment on a competition and match precision, that is true. They are not good for that .
When it comes to the recreational shooting, things are changed. Just bigger target is needed and shoot more shots to determine your group. But you can use it on a target. Recreationally. Depending on a shooter you can even make <1/2 inch groups with them on 25 yards, I did. And found that good for a springer.
Distance is determined by a max range and stability. It has nothing to do with action and rifle cost, it is more about shooter, MV, ES, twist rate, pellet BC and similar. It is more about barrel.
Mine rifle is about <=300$, and I manage to do 3.6 MOA group at 162 yards with it (stock rifle, pellets from tin), check forum N.U.A.H section. You can find there one entry with a cheap Chinese springer rifle too, by another shooter. Yes, the cheap springers rifles can do it.
Something related to action and distances is ES, I managed to decrease mine to 6.5 fps. That is excellent. And I did it by pellet sorting and slow barrel braking in (using heavy soft pellets and keep barrel clean). Meaning that gas ram work perfect, nothing need to be touched there. By detuning it, max range would be decreased, thus the distances for target shooting too.
For long range you need a perfect projectile or power. Pellets are far away from perfection. None springer is strong enough for bullets, so power is needed.
Hunting is something different since there is ethic involved. But even there hunter skills are playing the role too, more than the rifle cost.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/64pcmd.jpg)
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Main difference between cheap and expensive are:
1. Materials - durability
2. Tolerances - precision
3. Quality control - less factory faults and durability, guarantee that each sample on market is similar.
This is what you pay for. Hunting and shooting skills money can't buy.
With cheaper rifles you can expect anything. From excellent to disaster. But one thing is certain, cheaper most likely will not be durable, materials are as they are. (As nced noticed on piston seals).
But as long as perform well, if perform well, cheap rifle you can use for whatever you like.
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Back from range.
162 yd shooting with wind 7 mph variable, 1-2 o' clock.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/oi5hc.jpg)
Yes, <300 USD gas ramer did that.
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Ivan, thank you for sharing. That's a fantastic grouping considering the wind, distance, and type of projectile/airgun used!
You also make valid points otherwise.
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Ivan what gas ram did you shoot that with?
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Ivan what gas ram did you shoot that with?
Gamo G-Magnum IGT .22. Only trigger 2nd stage bolt is changed, all other is from factory. Factory trigger is really bad.
Trick is I spent a lot of time finding a correct pellet.
And practice use of mirage in wind estimation during aiming.
With artillery hold I am still not happy, I still do mistakes.
Scope is now zeroed in optical center on 150m, so I can use full zoom and turrets.
Pellet turn out to be JSB 18.13, 5.54mm diameter, 1.180g weight. 7.8 mm lenght. That one is stable all the way.
It don't mean it will work with other Gamo. As I wrote, cheap rifles are story on its own, each different.
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Nice shooting Ivan ! You make a good point as in depending on your intended use,with patience and practice you can make the gun you have work for you.
I think it,s a matter of to each his own. Buy the gun that tickles your fancy and have fun with it.
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This is with unsorted pellets on 146m (I had to move it closer since land is softer there), while scope was zeroed on 100m. You can see the difference.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2dt0pvn.jpg)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/6qv96s.jpg)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2nlh8vr.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/10hvvoo.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2u6l35w.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/311qo9c.jpg)
(http://i63.tinypic.com/5d1c14.jpg)
(http://i68.tinypic.com/14vh9fk.jpg)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/14cwop0.jpg)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/33c408y.jpg)
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Nice shooting Ivan ! You make a good point as in depending on your intended use,with patience and practice you can make the gun you have work for you.
I think it,s a matter of to each his own. Buy the gun that tickles your fancy and have fun with it.
Exactly. Most of all, have fun.
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Regardless of the group you might have shot in a day out, no cheap rammer will ever hang in competition against a target rifle. Other than something like Scotchmo's custom gun fitted with an lw barrel and other work done.
Cheap rammers are like cheap springers- cheap guns capable of killing an animal.
Don't confuse target rifle with shooting targets- you can shoot targets with a red rider, but not gonna hang in competition.
Should be implied without explanation
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nced :
You shoot more in 1 year with 1 gun than I shoot in 5 years with all 16 of my guns.
Outside of the fall and winter hunting seasons, I don't shoot my guns that much. I have a Crosman Vantage that I bought when Crosman first came out with them. That was about 8 or 9 years ago..I think. It has held up really well but it only gets shot 6 months out of the year and even when it gets shot, that is not a lot. During the off-season, what I tend to shot the most, is my Sheridan Silver Streak.
I sincerely thank you for your feedback and sharing of your extensive knowledge. I always greatly appreciate your point of view, even if it runs contrary to mine at times. It gives me pause to think about things that I may have overlooked or not considered. I'll be looking forward to your future posts.
Best Wishes - Tom
Good points made! nced :
You shoot more in 1 year with 1 gun than I shoot in 5 years with all 16 of my guns.
Outside of the fall and winter hunting seasons, I don't shoot my guns that much. I have a Crosman Vantage that I bought when Crosman first came out with them. That was about 8 or 9 years ago..I think. It has held up really well but it only gets shot 6 months out of the year and even when it gets shot, that is not a lot. During the off-season, what I tend to shot the most, is my Sheridan Silver Streak.
I sincerely thank you for your feedback and sharing of your extensive knowledge. I always greatly appreciate your point of view, even if it runs contrary to mine at times. It gives me pause to think about things that I may have overlooked or not considered. I'll be looking forward to your future posts.
Best Wishes - Tom
I'm of the opinion that the majority of "pellet shooters" are like you when it comes to "shot count". Since moving to North Carolina I also don't shoot as much as when living in West Virginia and shooting with my brother.
On June, 27th, 2015 I received the last order of CPLs which consisted of 4 cases of Die "B"s and when added to the existing boxes on the shelf this was my 18 box stash (22,500 pellets)........
(https://i.imgur.com/GhAG8F0l.jpg)
Here are the remaining 11 boxes as of May 2016 (shot 7 boxes in 11 months, 8750 shots)...........
(https://i.imgur.com/KffbpLxl.jpg)
Here are the remaining 4 boxes as of Jan 2018 (shot 7 boxes in 16ish months, 8750 shots)..........
(https://i.imgur.com/bG6zjG8l.jpg)
Since Jan 2018 I'm down to a single box of cps (shot 3 boxes in 16 months, 3750+ shots).
There will be another stash of pellets ordered however I'm not sure if I'll order more 7.9 grain CPLs that need "head sizing" to ease loading into the tight leade of my .177 HW95 (the .177 Beeman R9 has a looser leade and doesn't require pellet head sizing) or more 4.52mm 8.4 grain Air Arms Domes that fit the HW95 leade perfectly without pellet head sizing. I currently have 3 remaining tins of the AA domes and they are accurate from my HW95 when tested at 18 yards, however I haven't taken them to my 50 yard practice to check the accuracy at longer distances. If the AA Domes group well at 50 yards my next order will be for the AA domes. Just for grins I shot a group of AA domes straight from the tin, then a group using the AA 4.52mm domes that were head sized to 4.50mm and the result is included in these pics........
(https://i.imgur.com/5HDvh8Wl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/pYH35msl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/ToROA6Vl.jpg)
LOL....is does seem that the AA Domes with sized pellet heads were a tad more accurate, however that could have simply been due to the shooter swaying on the bucket when taking the shots, especially shine the unsized AA dome group is elongated side to side as it often happens when I'm "bucket and sticks" shooting! These 50 yard groups also demonstrate my tendency to "sway left to right"..........
(https://i.imgur.com/iaSr08wl.jpg)
Here are the next 5 shots at 50 yards on paper (about 1" ctc windage, 3/8" ctc elevation).......
(https://i.imgur.com/PK48HBSl.jpg)
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Why still make coil spring guns? Well, for me it's because of The theoben Eliminator / Beaman chromag issue ... I cannot buy another gas piston for that gun, nor can I easily find rebuild parts. Yes I know there are few people here in the states that I can get that rebuilt. But I have to send the entire gun out ... can't just order a part and put it in.
With the Springer, if they stopped making the particular coil spring I need it's real easy to have one made.
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I look at airgun springs like I look at trucks. New trucks are very fancy and have a lot of technology; older trucks older trucks not so much but still, there's something special that an older truck has that just isn't there with the new ones.
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I look at airgun springs like I look at trucks. New trucks are very fancy and have a lot of technology; older trucks older trucks not so much but still, there's something special that an older truck has that just isn't there with the new ones.
I don't know if you mean pick ups or big truck. But there will always be a place in my heart for an old 7400 White cab over. I drove those things up and down the east coast, the mid-west and Texas and everything in between. Never drove one had a/c in it. That's the way it was back then. No engine brakes, no air ride and no power steering but a really big steering wheel.
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I look at airgun springs like I look at trucks. New trucks are very fancy and have a lot of technology; older trucks older trucks not so much but still, there's something special that an older truck has that just isn't there with the new ones.
I don't know if you mean pick ups or big truck. But there will always be a place in my heart for an old 7400 White cab over. I drove those things up and down the east coast, the mid-west and Texas and everything in between. Never drove one had a/c in it. That's the way it was back then. No engine brakes, no air ride and no power steering but a really big steering wheel.
That is awesome