GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Tonykarter on August 27, 2017, 11:26:28 PM
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Took my old college roommate to the Texas Airgun Show. A frustrated Gamo owner, he shot several of the guns there and is now hooked. Really hooked. Former reloader/.222 Swift/7mm Mag target shooter, he recognizes the opportunity to accept the same challenge to stack them in one hole, but now at 25-100 yards in his back yard, without the time investment to go to the range.
He is planning on ordering a Marauder tomorrow. He asked me a question that I did not have the answer to: price notwithstanding, if money were no object which PCP is most accurate at 100 yards?
Granted, there are many variables involved in answering this question. Still, I'd like to give him an answer, or at least give him the consensus top three anyway. To stack them at 100 yards, what PCP/scope combo would you buy if money were no object?
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RAW HM1000X .25 poly or .30, WAR FLEX .30, AAA EVOL .30, FX Crown .25 seem to be the top dogs right now. Heard good things about FX Boss as well.
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We held one of AirGun Depot's FX Crown there. That is an impressive gun. Too rich for my work till I die reality, but well within his comfortable retirement.
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The most accurate I have seen, is a long road to get, and even longer to set-up for.
It's the .257 Talon/Dor's by Dyotat100. And other cal's he builds.
You can go to youtube and look up tofazfou to see the results. 1/4" at 100 yards is doable. and the accuracy holds up for hundreds of yards.
Problem is, they take a while to get, and there is the casting thing. NO factory bullets are really available that can give the desired accuracy.
Doug, (Doytat100) having never shot bench rest before, tried his hand at the extreme. His down fall was shooting the same target more than once. An easy mistake for a newby. Bottom line, wrong target notwithstanding, he had by a good margin the highest score, if the target had been countable.
The guns accuracy was there. His experience in BR wasn't . But a fantastic showing nonetheless. ;)
Knife
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I forgot to mention. Everybody and his brother will argue the point as the AF platform is considered the lowly pcp. However, It holds all the long distance records so far.
Knife
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All the ones Dairyboy mentioned are definitely the kings of the hill. One gun that is overlooked is the Hatsan BT65 in .25 or .30. They are even more accurate after Bwalton goes through it with one of his tunes. He's got several 100yd. videos on Youtube.
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If money were no object, I'd still just buy either a Cometa Orion rifle in .22 or a SPA P15 in .25, though I'd spend a few cents on some top shelf glass. Don't know what as I havent kept up with high dollar optics.
Well, I might also get a Taipan Mutant .22
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Assuming your question refers to a retail sales available type gun,... then my vote would go to the RAW HM1000X.
I do not own one, but I do have a buddy who has a couple of them. I have shot them several times, along side of Daystates, FX, and several other high end and custom builds. We have a great shooting permission on a chicken ranch with a 150yd shooting lane. We get all the old eggs you could ever want for targets.
When he pulls out the RAW, he makes the eggs at 150 disappear faster than the ones I'm shooting at 50-75-100 yds.
He just sits there and giggles every time he pulls the trigger.
Heck,.... I swear one of these days when he's not looking, I'm going to bend his barrel and loosen his scope mounts. LOL !
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Don't forget the Eastern European guns, Edgun, Cricket, Taipan,....Owners swear by them for real precision.
If I wanted to get a gun for serious 100 Yards precision ( not counting bullet shooters where you need to cast ) ....I would go for a .30 cal, and it would be an American Air Arms EVOL .30
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A RAW HM1000x .25 with polygon barrel shooting JSB heavies and a WAR Flex .30 regulated can shoot 1inch groups at 90 yards consistently in good weather conditions. These are the only two rifles I have had that can do this level of precision regularly. I'm sure there are others but I have not shot with them.
Most PCP's will shoot fine to 50 yards or even 70 yards. ( As you guys know - It is that little stretch from 70 to 100 that the groups open up disproportionately.)
This is a picture of nine targets with six shots into each a 90 yards with a HM1000x polygon .25 with pellets. Shots fired in steady succession. No order of targets selected but I did adjust the scope to get on the target a few times. The Smallest group is 3/4 inch, largest with a flyer about 1 1/2 inches.
I'm a Mr average shooter with poor eye sight and I'm sure a marksman could improve in this.
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Guns shooting 100 yards mainly go to .25 & 30 cal, but my little Air Wolf is pretty nice. :)
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I'm surprised the FX Impact or FX Crown is not the clear winner in this discussion. The fact that they can be tuned for a particular pellet with barrels for particular calibers and optimized for a particular pellet seem to give a shooter an extraordinary amount of control over the accuracy of the rifle. I'm pretty new to the sport and I've only owned one PCP, the lowly Benjamin Discovery, but from everything I read seems like FX really has the edge on other PCP manufacturers. Must be something I'm missing.
https://youtu.be/80vkl3qR6MA
For folks with more PCP experience, I'd appreciate some insight.
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I'm surprised the FX Impact or FX Crown is not the clear winner in this discussion. The fact that they can be tuned for a particular pellet with barrels for particular calibers and optimized for a particular pellet seem to give a shooter an extraordinary amount of control over the accuracy of the rifle. I'm pretty new to the sport and I've only owned one PCP, the lowly Benjamin Discovery, but from everything I read seems like FX really has the edge on other PCP manufacturers. Must be something I'm missing.
https://youtu.be/80vkl3qR6MA (https://youtu.be/80vkl3qR6MA)
For folks with more PCP experience, I'd appreciate some insight.
FX guns are not those uber weapons that AOA's EBR make them look. If you look at the results from Dutch 100M comps (they do not have commercial agenda) it's not FX that rules the game http://100mairgun.nl/default.aspx (http://100mairgun.nl/default.aspx) Add to that FX's quality problems for the past two years and I'd be hard pressed to recommend them. Besides, FX guns can not shoot bullets and that's the ticket for 100M accuracy in windy conditions.
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Michael Thomas air gun!
http://www.thomasrifles.com/home.html (http://www.thomasrifles.com/home.html)
Look at reply#58, not 100, but 55.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=83770.60 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=83770.60)
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Assuming your question refers to a retail sales available type gun,... then my vote would go to the RAW HM1000X.
I'm glad to be reading this thread! I haven't been aware of this rifle at all. Still got lots to learn.
https://youtu.be/4w38NYylxpo
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... FX guns can not shoot bullets and that's the ticket for 100M accuracy in windy conditions.
Well, that's got me thinkin'.
One of the virtues of an air rifle, for me, is shooting pellets that bleed off most of their energy in the first 50 or 60 yards, making it safer to shoot in those distances. If I wanted to shoot a bird or a squirrel up in a tree and I were to miss, I wouldn't want my bullet to travel long distances, potentially endangering other folks.
If someone wants to shoot at 100 yards or 100 meters, why not just shoot a powder burner? I realize people might be air rifle enthusiasts and want to push the envelope as far as possible, but as a practical matter, it seems like powder burners are the right tool for the right job at 100 yards. Just my humble opinion. I'm certainly not opposed to people pushing the envelope to see what's possible.
And ... as a retired engineer, I'm always interested to see what people are doing to push that envelope.
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That why we have more than one gun🙂
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... FX guns can not shoot bullets and that's the ticket for 100M accuracy in windy conditions.
Well, that's got me thinkin'.
One of the virtues of an air rifle, for me, is shooting pellets that bleed off most of their energy in the first 50 or 60 yards, making it safer to shoot in those distances. If I wanted to shoot a bird or a squirrel up in a tree and I were to miss, I wouldn't want my bullet to travel long distances, potentially endangering other folks.
If someone wants to shoot at 100 yards or 100 meters, why not just shoot a powder burner? I realize people might be air rifle enthusiasts and want to push the envelope as far as possible, but as a practical matter, it seems like powder burners are the right tool for the right job at 100 yards. Just my humble opinion. I'm certainly not opposed to people pushing the envelope to see what's possible.
And ... as a retired engineer, I'm always interested to see what people are doing to push that envelope.
People are using .224, .25, .257 and .308 bullet shooters to push that envelope. They work well at 200M as well. Of course we could just use powder burners or shoot airgun BR at 25M or 50M but where's the challenge in that?
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I wouldn't say any particular brand of air gun, but the air gun that is consistent and a Pellet that is consistent, the combination along with the shooters skills to read the environment and conditions is the key to longer range shooting, or just being lucky like me............... ;D
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People are using .224, .25, .257 and .308 bullet shooters to push that envelope. They work well at 200M as well. Of course we could just use powder burners or shoot airgun BR at 25M or 50M but where's the challenge in that?
Yes!
I've just been plinking for most of my time with air rifles; shooting 5" metal targets at 20-70+ yards using my Hammerli 850 on CO². I've gotten good enough at it that it wasn't as challenging or fun as I'd like! Now, I've got an HW30S on order with the notion of shooting aspirin sized targets at 30 yards "just for the fun of it!" We'll see how fun I can make it. :-)
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Supposedly the .308 Texan has some potential as well.
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People are using .224, .25, .257 and .308 bullet shooters to push that envelope. They work well at 200M as well. Of course we could just use powder burners or shoot airgun BR at 25M or 50M but where's the challenge in that?
So in truth, you have answered your own question of "Why not just use a PB? For the challenge and for the fun of it of course!
Got the same question for years when I was part owner of an Archery Shop and Range. Same answer. That, and it is addicting!!! 8)
Knife
Yes!
I've just been plinking for most of my time with air rifles; shooting 5" metal targets at 20-70+ yards using my Hammerli 850 on CO². I've gotten good enough at it that it wasn't as challenging or fun as I'd like! Now, I've got an HW30S on order with the notion of shooting aspirin sized targets at 30 yards "just for the fun of it!" We'll see how fun I can make it. :-)
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For my sister's property, I use a powderburner at longer ranges. However, they have nothing behind them for miles. If I lived on a farm or had a permission for pesting, I'd focus on airguns as pellets travel less and they are considerably less likely to scare off other pests with a shot (given how many higher end guns are shrouded and/or silenced)... Plus between ammo cost and lower likelihood of a pellet to penetrate steel plating/roofing, an airgun is a better choice in many respects.
And for those who made costly mistakes as a youth and cannot legally use firearms, PCP airguns offer them a chance to enjoy power and precision shooting without breaking the law.
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There really is no one gun most accurate at 100 yards. Steve at AEAC got 1.2" at 100 yards with a cheif in .22 and 1.18 with the RAW .25 with the poly barrel. Take a look through the long range club here and see what real people are doing with guns they own. You'll see that even on some of the high end guns that accuracy isn't a guarantee. Surprised no one has mentioned this yet. Scroll to the bottom of the forum list and you'll find the long range club.
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I look at the low power of an airgun as the main advantage over a .22 rimfire, in situations where using a PB gives more power than is needed. Get an airgun up to PB energy levels and it loses that advantage. Once an airgun is as powerful as a .22 rimfire or where that extra power is needed, it's just a whole lot easier to use the .22 rimfire. Those big bore pellets end up costing as much as .22 rimfire ammo also.
However, this is all about PLAYING, so I understand we don't have to be totally practical or logical. A potato cannon is not the best tool for any job either; it's just entertainment and a play thing.
Did I just compare your high-dollar big-bore airgun to a potato cannon? Sorry! ;D
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The FX Crown seems to be getting a lot of attention lately, though it's not even on the top ten of AGD's Long Ranger Competition, which surprises me.
http://www.airgundepot.com/long-rangers.html (http://www.airgundepot.com/long-rangers.html)
Bang for the buck I think you'd be hard pressed to surpass the Streamline .25 at 100 yds, beyond that, it's probably out of gas. But mine does quite well at 100.
I had no trouble zeroing in on an egg at 160yards w/ a stock out of the box .30 FX Impact. Though even at max holdover on my Athlon scope, it was not on target and I had to adjust zero - NBD. I really like this gun and can highly recommend it.
The Huben K1 is getting a lot of chatter seems to be doing very well at longer range shots and is a true semi auto. Factory pellets look a lot like bullets to me. Availability is slim at best. It's a very interesting platform in the $1.6k range...if you could actually get one. It is a China gun though so don't expect Daystate fit and finish. Still if performance is what counts, this one can't be overlooked. Bunches of good threads on it.
Another one w/ long range chatter is the Taipan. Can't say I've got any direct experience other than reading posts, but it too ought to be considered.
PCP is very addicting, tell your powder burner buddy that it's no cheap hobby either. He can get a lot more gun in a PB than an airgun for the same $. These airguns are spendy for sure.
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AGD's Long Ranger Competition
This is a nice thread about long range!
Here's the summary of the leader board.
AirgunDepot LongRangers Leaderboard
http://www.airgundepot.com/long-rangers.html (http://www.airgundepot.com/long-rangers.html)
Shoot an exploding golf ball at 150+ yards.
Record a video and upload accomplishment.
Yards - air rifle
309 - FX Boss
277 - Kalibrgun Cricket
250 - Taipan Veteran
244 - Huben K1
232 - FX Impact
225 - FX Boss
225 - FX Boss
207 - Kalibrgun Cricket
205 - FX Bobcat
205 - FX Bobcat
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The FX Crown seems to be getting a lot of attention lately, though it's not even on the top ten of AGD's Long Ranger Competition, which surprises me.
http://www.airgundepot.com/long-rangers.html (http://www.airgundepot.com/long-rangers.html)
Bang for the buck I think you'd be hard pressed to surpass the Streamline .25 at 100 yds, beyond that, it's probably out of gas. But mine does quite well at 100.
I had no trouble zeroing in on an egg at 160yards w/ a stock out of the box .30 FX Impact. Though even at max holdover on my Athlon scope, it was not on target and I had to adjust zero - NBD. I really like this gun and can highly recommend it.
The Huben K1 is getting a lot of chatter seems to be doing very well at longer range shots and is a true semi auto. Factory pellets look a lot like bullets to me. Availability is slim at best. It's a very interesting platform in the $1.6k range...if you could actually get one. It is a China gun though so don't expect Daystate fit and finish. Still if performance is what counts, this one can't be overlooked. Bunches of good threads on it.
Another one w/ long range chatter is the Taipan. Can't say I've got any direct experience other than reading posts, but it too ought to be considered.
PCP is very addicting, tell your powder burner buddy that it's no cheap hobby either. He can get a lot more gun in a PB than an airgun for the same $. These airguns are spendy for sure.
FX guns seem to be very good, but I've read too many threads of people having QC and finish issues with them. A fifteen-hundred-dollar airgun better look really nice and be problem free.
I'm sure there's a lot of really accurate airguns out there that perform amazing. But...
A: some people just don't care about the dong-wagging that accompanies long-range competitions.
B: some folks making crazy-long shots might have mundane guns with aftermarket barrels or prep, or perhaps are just phenomenal shots that are blessed with good conditions frequently
C: with all the higher-end guns out there, before worrying about long range shooting, I recommend figuring out what's going to be shot and then base the caliber and budget off that
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AGD's Long Ranger Competition
This is a nice thread about long range!
Here's the summary of the leader board.
AirgunDepot LongRangers Leaderboard
http://www.airgundepot.com/long-rangers.html (http://www.airgundepot.com/long-rangers.html)
Shoot an exploding golf ball at 150+ yards.
Record a video and upload accomplishment.
Yards - air rifle
309 - FX Boss
277 - Kalibrgun Cricket
250 - Taipan Veteran
244 - Huben K1
232 - FX Impact
225 - FX Boss
225 - FX Boss
207 - Kalibrgun Cricket
205 - FX Bobcat
205 - FX Bobcat
I saw a Texan vid that should be the leader. Saw it on here somewhere. Think it was the .357 not sure. It's supposed to be the worst shooter in the Texan line if that tells you anything.
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https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130647.msg1301581#msg1301581 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130647.msg1301581#msg1301581)
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My RAW1000X with a polygon barrel that Martin built for me shoots more accurate at 100 yards than anything I have ever shot at that distance. I had Martin push up the power to shoot slugs and with the swaged 38 grain HP slugs from NSA, I couldn't be happier with its performance. Ron was correct in his description of me snickering while shooting eggs at 150. I sight in at 100 yards with cloverleafs. RAW IS THE WAY TO GO, it's the Formula 1 of guns, and one gun I will never sell. But, I'm probably a little biased...
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I can't believe some of the suggestions for this, pretty soon every brand air rifle will be listed. Sheesh! ::)
In no particular order, RAW, Daystate, MT, Steyr, & FX. Stay clear of the FX Crown .... rumors have it they are having some issues with the pellet probe, the O-rings for that "floating" very thin barrel, and contrary to all the hype, some accuracy issues. It may end up a great rifle, but a word to the wise, wait a year until they work the bugs out. Have you noticed, all the hype for the Crown has come to a screaming halt? One last thought ..... put some good glass on a good rifle, so tired of people putting garbage glass on a good rifle, then complaining about it not holding zero, not clear, and all the other issues with junk glass. You get what you pay for in this hobby, never could understand why people have 10 junk rigs when they could have one great rig? Have him check out what the real competition shooters are using, both in Field Target and Extreme Benchrest ...... there is good reason why you don't see most of the brands mentioned in this thread.
My $.02
Pappy
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... pretty soon every brand air rifle will be listed.
Well, when you talk about the most accurate PCP, there's a lot going on ... yes?
Repeatability ... golf ball challenge records just a single hit
Skill ... varies all over the individual map
Variability ... 1 rifle great, next same model, maybe not
I've watched YouTube recordings of Ultimate Benchrest or Gunslynger or Field Target competitions in order to get some sense of which rifles consistently deliver accuracy for their shooters. Not so easy to know!
I found this video instructive:
https://youtu.be/TNONcrNmWDE
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Pappy I totally agree with your last comments, good glass has to been a part of the best 100 yard PCP "rigg"
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I can't believe some of the suggestions for this, pretty soon every brand air rifle will be listed. Sheesh! ::)
No one has suggested BSA yet ;) They have ruled the Dutch series for years, unfortunately they require some power tuning to reach appropriate power levels in .25.
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... pretty soon every brand air rifle will be listed.
Well, when you talk about the most accurate PCP, there's a lot going on ... yes?
Repeatability ... golf ball challenge records a single hit
Skill ... varies all over the individual map
Variability ... 1 rifle great, next same model, maybe not
I've watched YouTube recordings of Ultimate Benchrest or Gunslynger or Field Target competitions in order to get some sense of which rifles consistently deliver accuracy for their shooters. Not so easy to know!
I found this video instructive:
https://youtu.be/TNONcrNmWDE
You can't go buy what he is shooting. He gets stuff that's not available to public. I can almost guarantee what he shot last year was a special barrel in his impact.
FX will do what ever it takes to win at EBR. 2 years ago I had one of them shooting next to me to me and they called time the guy fired over 10 shots after time was called. Then in the finals they talked one of the shooters to shoot a impact. They were helping him after it started and disrupting the shooters. The guy was next to me and finally were told no one past the line except the shooter.
Last year when Ted won, they gave away a impact at the banquet. It just happened to not have a barrel on it and you had to contact AOA to get the barrel.
So FX and EBR is a do what ever it takes to win situation.
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He [Ted Bier, winner of Extreme Benchrest 2016] gets stuff that's not available to public. I can almost guarantee what he shot last year was a special barrel in his impact.
Just so you know ... I didn't post that video to worship at the feet of Ted Bier or FX. That video highlights practice, varying conditions, studying how a particular rifle shoots a particular pellet at what speed, discipline and probably other aspects I haven't listed.
I don't know if Ted Bier has specially constructed rifles or not. I do know he puts the time in and that's the key aspect of the video. If you want to push the envelope you've got to be willing to invest the time.
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In Netherlands those BR competitions are inside range.... :P So in my mind results are not compatible... But yes there is Lonestar represented. Here is some results..
http://100mairgun.nl/category/Wedstrijdresultaten.aspx (http://100mairgun.nl/category/Wedstrijdresultaten.aspx)
But because I can't understand Flemish language.... There was also other results...Don't know which are right. Sorry Maybe in this forum is someone from Dutch so he/she can straight things
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... asked me a question that I did not have the answer to: price notwithstanding, if money were no object which PCP is most accurate at 100 yards?
I was just looking at the very first post of the thread.
What is the answer?
Maybe ...
"Some of the answer depends on why you're asking the question. Do you want to hunt at 100 yards? Do you want to win competitions at 100 yards? Do you want to hit a reactive target like a can of soda at 100 yards just to see it pop? Do you care if you can do it every single time or just often enough to feel good about your shot?"
I dunno ... interesting thread though.
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In Netherlands those BR competitions are inside range.... :P So in my mind results are not compatible... But yes there is Lonestar represented. Here is some results..
http://100mairgun.nl/category/Wedstrijdresultaten.aspx (http://100mairgun.nl/category/Wedstrijdresultaten.aspx)
But because I can't understand Flemish language.... There was also other results...Don't know which are right. Sorry Maybe in this forum is someone from Dutch so he/she can straight things
The upper right hand corner of the page has a language selector
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Yes I know. But Google translater is quite poor...Atleast when I tested on Flamish to Finnish. Makes me chuckle...
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Yes I know. But Google translater is quite poor...Atleast when I tested on Flamish to Finnish. Makes me chuckle...
I see it is powered by google
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In Netherlands those BR competitions are inside range.... :P So in my mind results are not compatible... But yes there is Lonestar represented. Here is some results..
http://100mairgun.nl/category/Wedstrijdresultaten.aspx (http://100mairgun.nl/category/Wedstrijdresultaten.aspx)
But because I can't understand Flemish language.... There was also other results...Don't know which are right. Sorry Maybe in this forum is someone from Dutch so he/she can straight things
Indeed they shoot most of their comps indoors but since the talk in this thread is mostly about pellet shooters the results apply as there's not much difference in the BC of .25, .30 or .35 pellets. Although it seems that in the past two years or so RAW guns have found their place at the top of the Dutch score board as well. For off the shelf most accurate pellet gun that requires no tuning, RAW actually looks like a very promising candidate. There are results from open series, bigbore pellet shooters and bigbore bullet shooters. In open series BSAs and RAWs are on top. In big bore pellet series (.30 guns mostly) RAW and FX dominate. For bullet shooters results are more mixed but Beaumonts and Corsairs do rather well.
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Yes I know. But Google translater is quite poor...Atleast when I tested on Flamish to Finnish. Makes me chuckle...
I always make translation from whatever language to English in GT. Then it can survive somehow. Finnish is too difficult for it.
In Dutch site you can choose language from upper corner and English is not perfect but quite understandable.
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Here's another thought... if I personally was looking for a 100-yard gun, I'd want something relatively light with a wood stock. The small group of guns I'd be interested in are the ones I mentioned previously- Cometa, SPA, and at the high end, a Mutant.
Because I'm cheap, even if cost had no bearing. I will eventually own a RAW, but that's probably gonna be a few years down the road. The only FX that interests me is their cheapest and only a single-shot.
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What, No Crossman Pumpers.... 760....... ;D
I once made a shot with an old Crossman 760 with a BB..... about 100 yards and hit a Bird perfectly in the head, the gun had bad seals so it leaked air and you had to pump it about 20 times to get any power out of it, I seen the bird and didn't even think I would come close to it, so I just pointed the gun in the air and pulled the trigger, we watched the BB in flight (it was so slow you could see it) as it made the huge arch across the sky and fell directly on the Birds head, the one in a million shot....... We could not believe that I hit it, so LUCK is also a major factor in long distance shooting too. ;D 8)
Corrected my mistake..... crosman 760 not 780, getting old and can't remember my own name....... :o
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Usually a question like this results in the whole "Best gun is the one I'm shooting" lol I've seen some impressive groups from low end guns not even listed here, my experience is a gun will always be more accurate than I can shoot it. People post amazing groups that rarely can be duplicated, this years EBR may be much different than it's ever been....just a feeling. The way things are going 100 yards may no longer be impressive, modern PCPs are capable of much more.
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What, No Crossman Pumpers.... 780....... ;D
I once made a shot with an old Crossman 780 with a BB..... about 100 yards and hit a Bird perfectly in the head, the gun had bad seals so it leaked air and you had to pump it about 20 times to get any power out of it, I seen the bird and didn't even think I would come close to it, so I just pointed the gun in the air and pulled the trigger, we watched the BB in flight (it was so slow you could see it) as it made the huge arch across the sky and fell directly on the Birds head, the one in a million shot....... We could not believe that I hit it, so LUCK is also a major factor in long distance shooting too. ;D 8)
I think that is what is called the Golden BB. LOL!!!
Knife
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Question-if money were no object which PCP is most accurate at 100 yards?
Answer-the one that the shooter takes the time & effort to learn how it performs with its preferred ammo at 100 yards.
When it comes to long range shooting, practice & knowing your gun is everything, doesn't matter if you're shooting at a twelve inch gong or a marble, a 177 hatsan or .30 fx. Without consistency & practice, might as well be chucking rocks over your shoulder at the target.
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Wow, lots of interesting posts on this subject. Lots of good points made as to what do you want to do with the rifle, hunt, plink, or compete ... practice practice practice, absolutely ... what can you afford, what denotes a "good rifle" ... quality, craftsmanship, repeatability ... all good points. There has to be a line drawn somewhere ... and specifics have to be laid out. Are you looking for a rifle that you can mod to death, and you love to tinker ... maybe the Marauder is the "best" pcp for you ... but is it a great pcp out of the box? You can hunt with a $500 pcp very well, but is it as good as a hunting rifle that costs $1000, like a Daystate Regal or BSA R10 ... absolutely not! Good point made about Ted's FX Impact and the barrel was probably some custom thing from FX. We all need to learn how to sift through the hype from the manufacturers. And scopes, good God, people here post that their CenterPoint or other Walmart scope is "good". For what? In rifles and glass, quality, craftsmanship, dependability, repeatability, accuracy, and service all costs money ... you almost always get what you pay for. I'll stop now before I go into a rant. ;D :P
Pappy
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I think that if you are using pellets, once you get out to 100 + yards, pellets and environment have more effect on accuracy than the gun you are shooting. PCP technology is well beyond pellet technology at the time and until it catches up I don't think there will be a PCP that will shoot consistent 100 yards groups as compared to 50 yard groups. There are so many examples, two have been mentioned in this thread. The $180 Chief that matched the $2200 RAW, Matt Dubber's results when he shot the Crown at 100 meters. He showed all those very tight 50 yard groups but when he shot in the wind at 100 yards it was no different than any other PCP. In my own experience, I shoot the same sized groups with my Sumatras as I shoot with my RAW. So pick a decent gun and practice a lot and you will get more good groups at 100 yards than bad groups.
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maybe the Marauder is the "best" pcp for you ... but is it a great pcp out of the box? You can hunt with a $500 pcp very well, but is it as good as a hunting rifle that costs $1000, like a Daystate Regal or BSA R10 ... absolutely not!
gotta disagree with this a bit.
in a hunting scenario, a gun simply must be able to put the pellet where it will effectively kill the game with enough force to do so. If a $500 pcp can accurately hit what it's aimed at 10/10 I see no reason to think it's not just as good a hunting tool as a $1000 one or even a $1500 PCP. The rabbit or squirrel doesn't care what gun the pellet came out of, & once the end result is the same with any of them one is equally as good as the other afaic.
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maybe the Marauder is the "best" pcp for you ... but is it a great pcp out of the box? You can hunt with a $500 pcp very well, but is it as good as a hunting rifle that costs $1000, like a Daystate Regal or BSA R10 ... absolutely not!
gotta disagree with this a bit.
in a hunting scenario, a gun simply must be able to put the pellet where it will effectively kill the game with enough force to do so. If a $500 pcp can accurately hit what it's aimed at 10/10 I see no reason to think it's not just as good a hunting tool as a $1000 one or even a $1500 PCP. The rabbit or squirrel doesn't care what gun the pellet came out of, & once the end result is the same with any of them one is equally as good as the other afaic.
Duly noted! ;D I guess I just find it hard to believe that an "out of the box" $500 PCP will consistently place a humane kill shot on the prey at 100 yards, as well as the $1000 or more PCP will. I started with a springer Gamo Whisper something or another .177, moved up to the TX .177. No comparison out of the box, TX was much superior to the Gamo in sooooo many ways. I'm afraid this thread is like arguing Religion or Politics. :-\
Pappy
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Not really Allan
It's just that at the end of the day, it's about what can do what well.
Now, the higher end guns may have a more consistent shot string otb than the cheaper one & that will aid in the accuracy dept., but with a little tlc & some small change the cheaper one's string can be made just as flat. It's my observation that the cheaper guns come with stock settings to be as powerful as they can, while the more expensive ones tend to be set up for a long even string of shots, whether by means of down tuning, using balanced valves or regulating them at the factory.
There's no real limitation that would make a regulated .177 Mrod shooting it's preferred pellet at 700 fps any less accurate at 20 yards than an AA S510 at a similar power level and distance. When comparing oranges with oranges, when it all boils down, they're all good for what they are.
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Not really Allan
It's just that at the end of the day, it's about what can do what well.
Now, the higher end guns may have a more consistent shot string otb than the cheaper one & that will aid in the accuracy dept., but with a little tlc & some small change the cheaper one's string can be made just as flat. It's my observation that the cheaper guns come with stock settings to be as powerful as they can, while the more expensive ones tend to be set up for a long even string of shots, whether by means of down tuning, using balanced valves or regulating them at the factory.
There's no real limitation that would make a regulated .177 Mrod shooting it's preferred pellet at 700 fps any less accurate at 20 yards than an AA S510 at a similar power level and distance. When comparing oranges with oranges, when it all boils down, they're all good for what they are.
Another point: Some guns like you and some guns you like. I had a Galatian that was very accurate, but I hated the gun and sold her. I had an MROD that I really liked, but would not shoot accurate for me, I sold her and she is very accurate for the new owner.
It is not just the pellet for the gun, but also the gun for the owner. :)
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Not really Allan
It's just that at the end of the day, it's about what can do what well.
Now, the higher end guns may have a more consistent shot string otb than the cheaper one & that will aid in the accuracy dept., but with a little tlc & some small change the cheaper one's string can be made just as flat. It's my observation that the cheaper guns come with stock settings to be as powerful as they can, while the more expensive ones tend to be set up for a long even string of shots, whether by means of down tuning, using balanced valves or regulating them at the factory.
There's no real limitation that would make a regulated .177 Mrod shooting it's preferred pellet at 700 fps any less accurate at 20 yards than an AA S510 at a similar power level and distance. When comparing oranges with oranges, when it all boils down, they're all good for what they are.
Another point: Some guns like you and some guns you like. I had a Galatian that was very accurate, but I hated the gun and sold her. I had an MROD that I really liked, but would not shoot accurate for me, I sold her and she is very accurate for the new owner.
It is not just the pellet for the gun, but also the gun for the owner. :)
So much truth in this statement. Seen this in springers, CO2 guns, and PCPs. The Optimus I gave to a friend just wouldn't shoot at my desires. In the current owner's hands, it's a laser, and has a few hundred squirrels claimed over 3 years.
He's a far better pistol shot, but I can run circles around him with my PP700, and he almost as much trigger time with it as me (and he sighted it in!).
One thing Norman (BlackDiesel) mentioned that really should be heeded- the Sumatra... as much as like so many other airguns, the Sumatra is kind of in a class by itself. Relatively compact incredible powerhouse for a relatively low price, and it seems that everybody that has owned one claims it is among their favorites... and that it is not very pellet picky once you tame the power. But make no mistake, they are hunting machines first and foremost. Is it as good a 100-meter gun as some of the others that have been mentioned? Probably not... But once an owner learns the idiosyncrasies and gains proficiency, it is one gun that should not be underestimated. I know I'll be buying one within the next 18 months (and before I shell out the money on a Mutant).
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I think that is true about the gun and the owner, fit and comfort with your gun can be misleading if you don't have the proper technique the gun requires to shoot it properly, like a lot of the springers, I myself am not a springer person, get lousy groups with them, on the other hand with pumpers and PCP's I can nail a bottle cap at 50 yards with no problem, But My .22 Mrod.... Everybody knows the issues with this barrel..... at 10 yards had over 3" groups and was all over the place, put a new LW barrel in it and now it's as accurate as my Beeman/Weihrauch HW 100, which I must say is phenomenally accurate out of the box and I should add it to the list of guns, but the Mrod has no other mods to it and can be done at a cheaper price..... until you go "MOD CRAZY"..... Now your cheap Mrod is 2 times the cost of a high end out of the box gun, like I said previously it doesn't matter what gun you buy, if the gun and the pellet are consistent and you know how to read the terrain (wind / distance other factors) than you will have a winning combination.
and the Sumatra is a good gun, I love mine, and it is quite accurate with all sorts of pellets.
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I will agree that the biggest variable of all (apart from the shooter) is the barrel, and thus due in large part to variability in barrels, many simple “lower end” guns will do amazingly well. But there is much to be gained from higher end guns in the basic design /materials of the gun.
I say this from direct experience – my first foray into PCPs was with a Gen 1 .22 Marauder and it shot pretty well as stock. But I went on a quest to turn it into a “one-holer”, and it did get close it but always took a lot of great deal of care to shoot consistently sub MOA out to 50 yards and a bit beyond that (as far as I can shoot on my property), often with sorted pellets. By that point, it had been rebarreled with both LW and Marmot Militia HF barrels (both are great; I just decided to try both), wore a bedded Boyd’s stock, was regulated with a custom valves and light weight hammers – in short a long way from stock (the main tube, trigger group, and Breech related components were about all that were “stock”, but even most of those had been improved in some way) .
I was very happy with it after all the mods, but wanted to see what the high end guns were all about, so I bought a Daystate Air Ranger in .22 (a 50 FPE unit). After experiencing the Daystate – which shoots amazingly well with absolute ease – I am now convinced that the basic design and material selection that Daystate made is a huge element of that difference (at least when used as in single shot mode without the magazines - accuracy suffers with the mags).
The biggest area that I can point to is the breech block and barrel mount; it is worlds ahead of the Marauder - and probably costs a boatload more too! It is larger (thus has more metal and is stiffer), made from a titanium alloy (thus stiffer yet), and has six attachments to the main tube instead of the Marauder’s 4 attachment points (3 on the Gen 1) including two under the mag, which stiffens the breech block at the weakest point. And then the barrel is from wider stock than the Marauder, and mounts with a full size through hole with much less slop (still held in place with two grub screws though). The bottom line is that the Daystate barrel is significantly more rigid than the Marauder (even with a 0.63” LW barrel installed) and thus has both a much higher resonant and frequency and much less susceptibility to any impact of harmonics on the pellet.
The Daystate just keeps stacking pellets shot after shot, and I could not get the Marauder anywhere close to that until I regulated it, as changes in the shot cycle impacted harmonics and thus caused the POI to shift a noticeable amount (that is why I regulated it). To this day the Daystate (unregulated) outshoots the regulated and optimally tuned Marauder at pretty much any level of tune, and over far more types of pellets.
So my bottom line contribution is that the “pedigree” of the gun will have a large impact on things, if only through the odds of getting the best out of whatever the barrel can deliver.
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To this day the Daystate (unregulated) outshoots the regulated and optimally tuned Marauder at pretty much any level of tune, and over far more types of pellets.
So my bottom line contribution is that the “pedigree” of the gun will have a large impact on things, if only through the odds of getting the best out of whatever the barrel can deliver.
It reminds me of a Ted's Holdover review of a Benjamin Discovery $500 package he reviews.
https://youtu.be/ch2n1a4Q_Z0
He gives the Discovery a good review and then asks "But can the $500 Discovery keep up with these?" ... referring to a FX Bobcat or Daystate Airwolf; both at $3300+ for rifle, scopes and mods. His answer "I sure hope not! Otherwise those folks buying high end PCPs are wasting their money!"
I used to sell expensive Hi-Fi rigs along with more modestly priced systems. I used to tell my customers "You do have to pay to get the best but you can also overpay and not get the best, so ... try to do your homework."
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Also Ted gave the Discovery away when he was done playing with it !
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I don't know about the rest of you, but to me, sometimes having a gun that's so freakishly accurate gets kinda boring if just target shooting, I've setup all sorts of different target scenarios and still can get boring, some times it's kinda fun to shoot something that's kinda not so accurate, just to give a little "let's see if I can hit that" type of fun.... you know what I mean, "All of you do it", and it's most fun with a couple friends to see who can hit the target first.......
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That is when I go to a smaller target or longer distances
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I don't know about the rest of you, but to me, sometimes having a gun that's so freakishly accurate gets kinda boring if just target shooting, I've setup all sorts of different target scenarios and still can get boring, some times it's kinda fun to shoot something that's kinda not so accurate, just to give a little "let's see if I can hit that" type of fun.... you know what I mean, "All of you do it", and it's most fun with a couple friends to see who can hit the target first.......
That's what smaller targets, longer ranges & windy conditions are for ;D
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I don't know about the rest of you, but to me, sometimes having a gun that's so freakishly accurate gets kinda boring if just target shooting, I've setup all sorts of different target scenarios and still can get boring, some times it's kinda fun to shoot something that's kinda not so accurate, just to give a little "let's see if I can hit that" type of fun.... you know what I mean, "All of you do it", and it's most fun with a couple friends to see who can hit the target first.......
Yup. My Hammerli 850 on CO² got like that; so accurate at 60 yards on a 5" plinking target that I could sit there all day long and hit literally every time. I've been thinking about it ever since in terms of what type of shooting challenge is the right type for me to continue to enjoy the hobby.
Longer range, smaller targets, competitions, etc. I'm still thinking it over.
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Yeah, I've done the smaller target and longer ranges, I'm shooting at the 1" stick on targets at about 75 yards, that's as far as I can go at my range at my Buddy's house and the wind blow thru there at about 15-20 mph, I think what I may do is to put up a piece of drywall and smear some wet cat food or dead fish on it and pick off the Flies as they land on it. that might be more fun, plus they are a moving target....... ;D
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Yeah, I've done the smaller target and longer ranges, I'm shooting at the 1" stick on targets at about 75 yards, that's as far as I can go at my range at my Buddy's house and the wind blow thru there at about 15-20 mph, I think what I may do is to put up a piece of drywall and smear some wet cat food or dead fish on it and pick off the Flies as they land on it. that might be more fun, plus they are a moving target....... ;D
Now ur thinking, shoot the wings off a gnat at 50 yards ;)
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I use saltine crackers held by clothes pins at different distances and angles if close turn then thin edge facing you.
Smarties candies are great targets too all edible bio degradable
Neeco wafers, cheap lolipops
Note: these targets are only recommended for outdoor use or you may be shooting ants next lol
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I don't know about the rest of you, but to me, sometimes having a gun that's so freakishly accurate gets kinda boring if just target shooting, I've setup all sorts of different target scenarios and still can get boring, some times it's kinda fun to shoot something that's kinda not so accurate, just to give a little "let's see if I can hit that" type of fun.... you know what I mean, "All of you do it", and it's most fun with a couple friends to see who can hit the target first.......
That is exactly why I never, ever shoot targets with my PCPs,......on the other hand I'm having a lot of fun shooting all kinds of 50 yards targets with my .177 Gas rams.
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if I had access to pig hunting like you do Manny, I'd give up target shooting and become the jungle.......... and get me some of that wild organic Hog for the BBQ.......