GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Doubletough on March 25, 2011, 05:29:03 PM
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I'm not sayin' we are or we aren't, but we want to know your thoughts on under lever break barrel guns. What do you like, dislike, feature wish list....what would be your ideal under lever?
We're listening.
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i would love a crosman under lever one with open sights and a weaver scope mount nitro piston gun with a all weather summit style stock sling mounts that shoots 1000fps in either .22 or .177 cal i like the .177 cal
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Under 500 fps version for Canada for a start.... *grin*....
Bob
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How bout a 22cal that shoots in the 800 to 850fps range thats about 7.5 to 8.5lbs thats ambi so everybody can enjoy the rifle with a similar set up like an HW97 or an AA Pro Sport!
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How bout a 22cal that shoots in the 800 to 850fps range thats about 7.5 to 8.5lbs thats ambi so everybody can enjoy the rifle with a similar set up like an HW97 or an AA Pro Sport!
roger that ;D....and when brainstorming...think carbine.cant keep a good carbine down ;D..hehehe thanks Bart
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I agree Bart thanks for adding what I forgot!
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I wasn't being a jerk with the above comment about Canada.... but Crosman does seem to be rather ignoring us north of the border....
Back to your question.... From what I have seen, Springers are at their best in the 12-16 FPE zone.... with swept volumes in the 50-60 cc range.... That puts you about 850-900 fps in .177 cal with 7.9 gr. pellets.... and about 700-750 fps in .22 cal with 14.3 gr. pellets.... Add more power, and the gun tends to get cranky to shoot and heavy.... Guns in that range end up being sweet and accurate.... It would be nice to keep the weight to about 7-7.5 lbs without scope.... I hate lugging around scoped guns over 9 lbs....
Bob
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Something like the Gamo CFX....But with a better lifespan. The breech seal needs to last, and a large breech for big hands/fingers.
-Compact, Light, Very Accurate.
-Power....really shouldn't be the goal, smooth and accurate is what I would want. 14-15fpe is good.
-Short, Carbine... entire gun No longer than 38-39", Barrel 15"
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+1 to this, I'm used to it but all my friends complain about loading when they use my CFX
Something like the Gamo CFX....But with a better lifespan. The breech seal needs to last, and a large breech for big hands/fingers.
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needs gas ram 850-950 fps 22 cal.
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Hi... if you do go down the underlever road.
It has to be easy to load...Don't even consider a CFX style loading port.
Take a good look at the Hatsan bolt loading port... Or how about
a mag like the Theoben SLR underlever or the older Diana 300R underlever.
Recoiless like the Diana 54/56... light weight..affordable..
build something that stands apart from the crowd..instead of putting yer own spin
on on whats already out there....
well you asked... ;D
PS..wish more company's would ask for input from the customer's..
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.22 cal, - nitro piston, over 700 fps, and a multi-shot magazine that's indexed when the level is actuated. - BTW, - thanks for asking, ...
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I would be in for a decent underlever
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I'm with the others on the idea of a Nitro Piston underlever of manageable weight and handling ability with integral Weaver/Picatinny rail.
I would also add that it should be in the same power category as the NPSS, as well as of (crossing fingers) of U.S. manufacture.
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I would love to a under lever that shot a 7.9 at 750 fps or 22cal at 600 fps with good open sites an weaver rail keep the gun under 7lbs an no longer then 40 inches. an loading port thats easy to use. where are the gun,s that shoot 750 fps very gun made is a 1000fps claimed an a crossman r-7 would sell like hot cakes.
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I'm with the others on the idea of a Nitro Piston underlever of manageable weight and handling ability with integral Weaver/Picatinny rail.
I would also add that it should be in the same power category as the NPSS, as well as of (crossing fingers) of U.S. manufacture.
Also both wood and syn Summit style stock. All metal removeable front and rear sights. Loading port for R or Left hand.
P.S. NO THUMB-HOLE STOCK!
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http://www.china-bam.com/beining/html/prs1/t171-265/c410.html (http://www.china-bam.com/beining/html/prs1/t171-265/c410.html)
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/09/bam-b40-part-1-a-first-look/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/09/bam-b40-part-1-a-first-look/)
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/09/bam-b40-part-2-power/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/09/bam-b40-part-2-power/)
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/10/bam-b40-part-3-accuracy/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/10/bam-b40-part-3-accuracy/)
Synthetic stock like the http://www.retaygun.com/UDetay.aspx?ID=70 (http://www.retaygun.com/UDetay.aspx?ID=70)
Combo scope rail like the Hatsan's have http://hatsan.com.tr/dominator_200w.asp (http://hatsan.com.tr/dominator_200w.asp)
Open sights
Shroud should be light weight
.177 .22 and .25 cal
The all-new Crosman Brutuz ;D
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I might add that no matter what Crosman decides to do on a build of an underlever Please put a good fully adjustable trigger in it theirs nothing worse than having a nice gun with a POS trigger in it!
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A good trigger would up the price, just make it acceptable for the GRT3. Maybe a Nitro piston underlever with a shrouded barrel....Ive always wanted an underlever, but most of the cheaper ones dont appeal to me. To get my vote a gun has to look good ontop of shooting well, and be affordable under $300. Something like the trail series...
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Make open sights removable like the RWS 350 if you add them in. If they were permanent it would really turn some off!
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well they all just sumed it up a good nitro piston in the 850-950 range with a good weaver picatinny rail with an easy loading port unlike the cfx and a underlever lock-up that is not incorperated into a muzzle break since we like to install our own strippers breaks and what not. and a real steel barrel no liners please just can not get into the poly barrels. .22 is great
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The only thing I dislike about break barrels is just that - the barrel moves. I prefer a fixed barrel for accuracy.
How about an under lever that looks like a mannlicher stock?
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All good ideas shown here.I like the ones that you can load then cock or vise versa.I have some that you can cock and then load which is a nice feature,saves the fingers if something goes wrong.Nice strong barrel with 8 lands like German guns for instance.Mounts already on them for sling or bi-pod.Wood stock is good and if synthetic how about a solid butt to reduce noise and vibration or something inside butt for that purpose.Weaver rail for scope so it wont slip.If it does have sights how about Hi Viz or tru glow like sights with longer element for more light.A true two stage trigger made of a metal alloy of some kind.Have the barrel fixed and load like a bolt action so barrel cant move.Nitro piston is good but im still a die hard springer fan.I agree also not to got for high fps but a true 900 to 950 for better accuracy.One more thing--build them in U.S.A!! The whole gun!
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I would sell my remaining Gamo .177 CFX (gave the .22 CFX to my dad), to get one.
Please, please don't go el cheapo on the trigger. I know it would be a shooter. Carbine, or just a bit larger. Powerful (think magnum) as my TF-89, with a smooth shooting cycle (nitro piston).
Make the loading port accessible. The Discovery port is a real pain, even with high mounts.
Nice stock, fit and finish, and this may be too much to ask, but made in America, mostly?
.22 cal. would look nice in my cabinet.
Charles
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Yes, build it in the US, forgot that!
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How about a .20 cal.? Peep option? I agree with the above post about separating yourself and doing something different.
Scotty
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I'm going to have to agree with this last point, .20 cal. Along with made in the USA.
in all seriousness. I'm not picky on stock type or look. it can be bright pink aslong as it fits me well. (dont laugh please) 6'2" 140, i have long arms, a disco stock is quite short for me. but it may be perfect for most people so i'll take what i can get.
My disco loading port not worthy, untill i learned to just roll the pellet along the "tray" and it will fall perfectly into the chamber.... then i got magazines lol. But for an underlever, a QUICKLY and let me re-emphasize QUICKLY reloadable magazine would be sick
I'm kinda dumb in the underlever market but is it possible to make it be a lever action? or would that require to much effort?
just asking lol
oh well just my opinion,
Nathan
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Thank you for asking for our oppinions!
An underlever springer, iron sights but scopeable,about the size of the Quest,ambi dark wood stock,available in .177 and .22. 750-950 fps. GRT III compatible.Easier to load than the CFX, [although you get used to it.]
Also available with synthetic and camo stocks.
Possible different power ranges.
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I would be down for an underlever. .22 cal with a nitrogen pistion. I want something in the 750 - 800 fps range. Don't copy the CFX breech. Something that is competitive with the TX 200/ HW97, better quality and 1 lb lighter than the TF87.
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I'd be more for a side lever :-[ But if you make whatever it is in the U.S., i'll buy one. J
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Skip, thank the Crosman folks again for asking our thoughts on the go no go underlever...:) So far Crosman has been hitting the nail on the head as far as new air guns and technology goes.
If I am not mistaken you will be completing with Air Arms TX and PS Unilever's as well as the HW 77-97. I own them all and they are incredibly accurate and shoulder very well.
With that said I think there is enough room in my coral for another underlever...:) With guys like Lloyd working with you I am sure you will come up with another winner..
One thought is if you plan on producing these pleas offer a Monte Carlo wood stock....:)
Weight is a factor if folks use them for hunting but as a bench shooter the weight makes no difference. Loading port needs to be ergonomic. The HW 77-97 loading port is much easier to load than the Air Arms TX and PS. Triggers on all the above mentioned underlevers are very nice.
Thanks again for letting us voice our thoughts. I am sure if Crosman makes an underlever or sidelever it will be a winner.
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Thank you for asking! Im impressed that a manufacturer is asking real end users about what they would like.
My ideal under lever is my RWS 470 th. There is nothing i would change about that gun. If you could make one similar for a few $100 less im sure people would bite.
Thanks again for asking.
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Thanks for asking Chip!!!!!
.177 & .22 / ambidextrious / Magnum rated powerplant (True 1,000fps) WITH option to a standard (True 900-1000fps) powerplant for .177 customers.
Standard Stock, synthetic is fine. I think designing it with the grace of the HWs would be nice, but I'm Most interested in powerplant, barrel, trigger, and safety's quality. Would like it to weigh less than 8 pounds to carry.
No rotary breech!
Again Chip...THANX FOR ASKING ;D
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Thanks for asking!
Ambidextrous, ambidextrous, ambidextrous! I'm a lefty (most of the time) and nothing turns me away more than a right hand only stock.
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No bear trap.
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Certainly a loaded question! As for me, I'd prefer something new to be a side lever, as it could be cocked when punching paper without lifting it from the rest. I have an XL1100 and a .25 barrel for it also. As I've gone through 3 of these to find the "one", here are a just a couple of things I would like to see in anything new coming from Crosman.
1) Seriously accurate advertised fps numbers.(real world numbers, with CPHP's which are readily available to most, and therefore usable as a reliable benchmark)
2) Power over 25fpe.
3) Upgraded barrels, perhaps choked, which are consistently accurate.
4) Upgraded triggers.
5) Iron sight "option"
6) Lighter weight, 8 lbs. w/out scope.
7) made in the USA with US parts.
These might be too much to ask for, but If they were to show up at a dealer near me, it would definitely be worth any premium charged!
We're glad you folks at Crosman are asking and listening. That's why you guys are almost as great as the GTA!!! ;) :D :D :D
pv
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.22 cal, - nitro piston, over 700 fps, and a multi-shot magazine that's indexed when the level is actuated. - BTW, - thanks for asking, ...
This is a great idea. I also think the carbine size would be great. Removable open sights would make it one perfect rifle! Cost would need to be reasonable also. But Crosman never fails on that front.
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I'm reading these comments and find them very interesting.... Many people are asking for magnum power in a light weight gun.... So far, in Springers, that combination has been basically impossible to achieve.... certainly if one factors in a smooth shot cycle....
Since Crosman are asking us to blue-sky here.... then perhaps combining these requests is not that unreasonable.... Perhaps with modern technology, Crosman can indeed combine those ideals into one platform.... I guess time will tell....
Bob
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also make it shoot chps well.
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I seriously do not care if it is made in china. Your gonna get the same gun for less if it's made over there. If it shot a true 20 FPE with cphp's, looked nice, and had weaver rails, I'd be all in!!!
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It's been too long since I've been here...sorry.javascript:void(0); But had some extra time and came back to browse the site. Did some research and noticed no one mentioned the flip up breech design that the RWS 46 had. Is there a reason? To me this design would help those of us with fat...I mean large hands... javascript:void(0); A good trigger is a must and i definitely like the nitro piston suggestions. As the others have said it's great to see a company ask the end user on what we like/dislike. Thanks
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I am always late to the party. But I too would like to see a .20 option. And a build quality that Crosman could be proud of. And the end user, the customer.
Thanks for asking for our input.
Bogey
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I would love to see a underlever or sidelever from crosman. minimum 177 or 22 cal. 20 and 25 cal would be neat too pending powerplant.
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mark 611 has the answer ;)
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It sound good doesn't it LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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Please......................................................NO THUMBHOLE STOCK...................DON'T GET ME STARTED!......Thank you for the opportunity Bob
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how about a .32 cal. underlever, shrouded barrel, nice scope sling, no thumbhole stock, either synthetic or wood stock, $300 or less...just picked .32 off top of my head..... .22 or .25 would be good also..
Larry
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forgot to add...... anything Crosman works for me.....love the old pumper 140's /1400's and the 1322/1377 Pistols steel breech and bolt is only thing I think they would need!
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I'd want a new under lever rifle that could propel the CPHP in .22/14.3 grain at an average of 800FPS or better. I have the TF-87. Build yours lighter than that, and put a trigger at least as good as that one's two-stage adjustable. Good micro-adjust rear sight with knobs to adjust, and a decent front post sight. Properly stout mechanisms, including a NOT_PLASTIC spring guide, and the cocking lever (plus that whatever clamping design you'll use to hold the coking arm in place). A chocked barrel, and ensure that any other accuracy-improving measures are taken.
While you're at it, make a side lever too.
If all else fails, import the Hatsan under levers that we don't see on these shores. Is that what you're thinking?
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I have to chime in with many others by mentioning a standard stock would be ideal.
NO THUMBHOLES.
Synthetic or wood, either one is okay by me.
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700-800fps in .177, a stock with enough drop to use iron sights. Good ( no fibre optic) sights not the standard junk on most AGs. Most of all a good two stage trigger.
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Black or camo synthetic stocked, 34"ish overall length bullpup with picatinny rails, nitro piston sidelever and short CHOKED tube. auto indexing magazine(or single shot) both would be nice and then a second gun, a carbine with conventional stock built off the same sidelever action. No long barrels and make it in the USA!! 8)
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I change my Mind... I want a sidelever instead, They look cooler...And also I could use a Bi-pod without interference. That RWS 48 is on my wish list...sooo
Your goal should be a springer that is as scary accurate as a Marauder out to say 50yd. then it wouldn't matter what it looked like.... ;)
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First of all I would like to congratulate you on your initiative to ask the end users/buyers of your products for their honest and clear opinions about them. I wish to declare that I am not an American citizen and never owned Crosman airguns so far - please do not misunderstand my sayings. Here are a few suggestions on a new HIGH QUALITY air rifle that might be useful:
- The rifle should be accurate, reliable and safe for use right out from the box: no need for opening, degreasing, relubing, checking the quality of internal parts, deburring, replacing parts with aftermarket superior ones and so on. A man who knows little about dismantling air guns or just does not want to perform such things on his all-new precious airgun would never be driven to such activities due to manufacturing errors, wrong part tolerances, badly positioned lubes or other things that fall 100% in the manufacturer's responsibility. If an airgun-lover wishes to open this rifle he must be pleasantly surprised from what he will se inside his gun.
- The quality of raw materials used must be first class - no more cheap recyclable metal alloys of unknown composition and quality, no more plastics everywhere just to decrease manufacturing costs and increase benefits. This rifle (or series of rifles) should be directly comparable to the other great brands top models (Air Arms, HW, Diana etc) - not "cheap and cheerful" to suit the needs of children, teenagers, newcomers to the sport or people that change hobbies every week or month - this would be addressed to real airgun enthusiasts, mature sportsmen, shooters, hunters or collectors who can appreciate the "good stuff" when they see it. I am opposed to the general idea "make it very powerful, very good and cheap for all" - if you follow this path you will end up with another common Crosman product not capable to stand among the crowd of mediocrity of all cheap airguns. "A really good thing is never a cheap one" - this applies to all goods in this lifetime and airguns are not an exception. If you are out to do something that will make your firm proud to produce it and all customers proud to own it you must take serious thoughts about the aspects of quality and their true cost. High quality steel like the ones used in the firearms production (branded over the receiver) with great resistance to rust and tough enough to withstand years of intensive use in all fields. High-quality steel is lighter than cheap metall alloys or alluminum and can lead to smaller dimensions of all parts but with greater strength in each one of them - all bolts and screws made from the same material and properly hardened also. A springer generates a lot of vibrations so “critical” bolts/screws should be a little oversized and properly secured. Great care must be made to ensure that all tolerances are kept small and always the same from gun to gun, from batch to batch and so on - this means REAL QUALITY CONTROL - to ensure easy interchangeability of parts if ever needed. Metall (steel) open sights are not a thing of the past as many manufacturers tend to make us believe – they can produce very satisfactory results from shot 1 without the need of an extra scope. Easy removal and re-installation of them is a good property and if they are offered with multiple rear sight notch and fron sight inserts choices (like the old Diana ones or the Weihrauch) they will be the best for the business. I am opposed to the newly founded fashion of so called “true-glow” or similar coloured open sights who make accurate shooting impossible (best suited for handguns in combat situations as their primary purpose). Scope rail in two dimensions (11 mm and weaver like the new Hatsans already reported) is another good addition and re-settable automatic safety also in a convenient place. An efficient anti bear trap mechanism that can be removed by the user if he wishes so.
- The built of the rifle. NO long stroke actions with thin/low diameter pistons and seals complete with long, heavy coils – instead of that: high diameter pistons and seals, short stroke actions, HIGH QUALITY SPRINGS with the exact coils needed for the job that will not break after some 1000’s of shots or loose their power easily in a short period of time – these things really exist dear gentlemen in many of your rival’s products and if you want to reach them you must make the step and embody them in your philosophy. Parallel main cylinder walls, well formed transfer port in the right size to suit many calibre choices, buttoned pistons (from the factory – everybody knows about them and their advantages – it is not “nuclear science” to make), steel top hats and spring guides with near to perfect fit between them. A new type of TRUE two stage trigger, easily adjustable and made from hardened all steel parts capable to withstand the forces of powerful mainsprings without wear – Weihrauch, Air Arms and even Hatsan have managed to produce good examples, why can’ t you do the same? Steel barrels in all four popular calibres (0.177”, 0.20”, 0.22”, 0.25”) made by cold forging (remember Cometa?) or other quality method – if this is not possible then order some Lothar Walther “specials” and use them (like AirArms). As for the design of the underlever I would suggest the Air Arms approach (found in older airguns also) – a hidden underlever like the one of the Prosport BUT not made of aluminium . The usual underlever designs that extend to the front end of the barrel are easier to manufacture but tend to produce front-heavy rifles best suitable for bench rest shooting but no so good for general use offhand (plinking, hunting etc). Here is an area of study for a better design underlever latch, made of blued steel and with greater ergonomics (lesser power for cocking in an overall smooth cycle). This will give very good balance characteristics to the gun and a beautiful appearance. The overall length should be around 41 inches and weight about 7.2 lbs with a barrel length of 16 inches. The barrel can be fully shrouded (blued steel shroud) and equipped with an integral “compensator” (like Cometa Fusion or other designs) to allow for better distribution of air around the pellet after its exit from the barrel. Stock options and design: basic model with beech stock, ambidextrous, Monte Carlo equipped with abjustable comb (a real MUST for serious target shooting with scopes), rubber but-pad , closed pistol grip with proper dimensions to suit a lot of shooter’s hands (no need for a “fancy” anti-ergonomic thumbhole of poor design just for show) and a second “tactical” stock in dark grey colour with the same characteristics but superior resistance to bad weather (with forethought for better behaviour during shots). A walnut stock can be sold as an extra or as a “premier” model. The basic rifle should be a springer but with provision to install a Crosman or other aftermarket “Nitro-Piston” unit if the owner wishes so (I am a fanatic of traditional spring airguns). The fixed barrel with easily accessible loading port without complexity of construction is another strong puzzle for the engineering minds. Hatsan’s designs with the single direction moving barrel inside a metal shroud assembly (as seen in the Torpedo series of models) is an interesting approach: if there was a mechanism of automatic opening for the barrel (that is when we start the cocking procedure the barrel moves to the front position automatically, remaining exposed for easy loading and when we return the cocking lever to the front position the barrel returns back to give a solid lockup - a spring loaded mechanism with proper design would not be that difficult to produce). This resolves many problems and leads to simpler construction (there is no need for internal cylinders, added complexity, excess weight, lower capacity of the main air chamber) giving us enough “room” to use large diameter, short stroke pistons in a powerful action without a lot of recoil or vibrations – a 15+ real ftlbs in 0.177” cal or 19+ real ftlbs in 0.22” (without any kind of tuning) capable to perform admirably with many pellets in the market and ready for every task.
At the end if such a project was ever possible to be made 100% in the US by American workers the label “MADE IN THE U.S.A.” would find again the place it deserves – for such a genuine product of proven QUALITY a lot of airgun friends would pay its high price and feel good for doing so.
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The trigger is one of the most important things you can improve upon.
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good write up flyer
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flyer this is exelent stuff, great approach you should be our spokesman!
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Wow I would say Flyer hit it on the head for me also(and saved me a ton of typing).
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Flyer, - a LOT of folks who know/like & VERY much enjoy air guns could never afford what you're suggesting. - The higher the price goes, the fewer folks that can or will buy it.
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One thing that turns me off even really expensive underlevers is the loading port. Why not do a bolt like Hatsan or even a flip-up port like the Mod 100 -- it is silly to have to worry about losing your fingers just for loading a gun. It allows the user to load and cock or cock and then load where as a loading port forces the issue.
A nice adjustable trigger
A cocking arm lock that is easy to disengage
Tapped holes for optional raised rail
Decent wood stock
Stripping and muzzle brake options
my fantasy... a segmented cocking action like on my TF BS4. every inch or few it clicks as you cock it and if you let it go, it will not spring back.
Richard
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Flyer, - a LOT of folks who know/like & VERY much enjoy air guns could never afford what you're suggesting. - The higher the price goes, the fewer folks that can or will buy it.
My friend the common practice shows that all "heart broken" airgunners always try to possess a good gun - most of them have spend hard earned money to buy a pile of mediocrities while dreaming to have something better for themshelves. Airgunning is a passion and as such is not always subject to logic - there are a lot of examples in the market where high priced airguns are sold on a daily basis - maby not in great numbers as the others but there is always a public for them. Weihrauchs, Air Arms, Daystates, Theobens, FXs, Falcons and other products are not cheap - they are now and will continue to be highly desirable for a lot of people. The point here is to make something better with the existing experience and technology using clever ideas and innovations with the final cost in mind - not to reproduce other's brands copies or bad projects - this would not be progress but a "colorless", "tasteless" conservative approach or even return to the past. I have to admit that this is not an easy step for a company but in our days what makes a good airgun is known to everybody even to the most ignorant. Thank God there are a lot of choices for all of us - I am sorry but I cannot close my eyes and pretend that an inferior product is better only because it's cheaper. I know was it is and what it can offer at its best - however if I want something better I know where to look for and I am also prepared to pay its price.
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The gun you want/describe flyer my friend, then probably already exits. - Maybe the poor unwashed masses should have a chance at something new that they could afford. Crosman is basically a Ford-Chevy type of operation in the air-gun business. That's their market place & they know it. Frankly, they do an excellent job, - don't fix something that ain't broke.
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unwashed dont forget a good sling for carring it
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flyer, here's my analogy, A $100k BMW sports coupe may be nice, but my Z-06 Corvette will blow its doors off in both performance and handling for half the money. Jmo.
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Crosman is basically a Ford-Chevy type of operation in the air-gun business. That's their market place & they know it. Frankly, they do an excellent job
I have a Remington Vantage 1200. At just under $100, it was a pretty fabulous buy. light, good wood, solid, powerful, good accuracy. I'm afraid I have spent 3, 4 and 5 times as much on guns just as good. Crosman does a wonderful job of keeping the price down which they can do with their volume and market share and resources. Something tells me that if they want to get a nice gun put together with a lot of features, they can probably do it and do it for less than other manufacturers who do a smaller volume and have fewer resources.
They were looking for suggestions, not a road map. I think all suggestions are valid, as they can then decide what fits their model -- something they know quite a lot better than onlookers. Why not ask for the moon? I didn't see a price limit on what they have in mind.
Richard
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Crosman is very capable of building a world class air rifle on the quality level of AA an HW, for alot less money. The importers of these types of AG's are who keep the prices up on them, I don't know if any of you have looked but Crosman did post the same question on the yellow, and the vast majority of folks over there have givin a similar imput to what flyer and I and others think on this idea of this possible new rifle, we all have different tastes in what we like in an AG, and money can be a factor when buying one, I don't own a Crosman AG accept the M- Rod I had awhile back but sold it, Their guns are not up to the quality of what they could be to make them world class. I think its time Crosman steps up their game and they could reach a whole new market of people with a higher quality of AG, that isan't gonna be out of reach for people to own who buy what they sell right now you'll just have to save your pennies alittle longer thats all, Flyer, didn't give them a road map hes just telling them what should be expected in a good rifle thats all and hes not the only one either! Crosman sells enough lesser expensive AG to the market already, Time to up the game Crosman.
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Flyer, didn't give them a road map hes just telling them what should be expected in a good rifle
That is what I hoped I said. Crosman was not looking for a roadmap, just suggestions. Give them all the suggestions, and they pick what they want.
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They already have a very nice/comfortable spot market wise, - not everyone wants a Mercedes. - Personally I like Crosman products, and frankly buying higher doesn't present a problem, - just not going to do it. With them or anyone else. "For the money involved" (key) they put out a very decent product. - There are already a number of "high end" air gun manufacturers & distributors around, - simply buy what you need/want from one of them.
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Why not keep the money in this country instead of sending it over seas!
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If Crosman is based in the US and they profit, the money does stay here.
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I know that and that is my point! Nobody in this country builds a gun like HW or AA in this country and to be told to look else where your telling me to look to over seas companys, and most of Crosmans products come from forign countrys anyway, My out look is American workers American Jobs, I don't like seeing my money going to other countrys when these type of air guns can be made right here in the good ole U.S of A, at less cost for everybody to enjoy here.
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This is getting off-topic, ... original question was about "suggestions" on a new under-lever (I think) ... ;)
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For me an underlever from crosman is simple. Take a B40 and put a gas ram in it and knock off 2 pounds. After shooting gas rams in my opinion springs don't have a place anymore.
Eric
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I guess who types the most words knows the most... lol
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what about getting the trail NP as an underlever... same performance and available in .177. Like a poorman's HW97k thumbhole. dont you guys worry about the tuning... we'll manage that. keep it priced reasonably and you'll see a lot of them turn up at HFT events...
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I'm from Canada and I hope it's similar to the HW97K and shoots in .22 cal between 800-900 fps and also have a Non PAL rated version for Bob as well like they do with all the rest of the guns we have here.Even HW has the 97K under 500 fps model for those with No PAL.I have mine, so I'm all for the full power he he!
I'd buy a Crosman underlever today if there was one available and Made in the Good Ole US of A!
Thanks
P/S: And Thanks for asking Chip and Please give us all another reason to Love Crosman he he!!!
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I have my PAL too.... I'm just thinking of the thousands of Canadian airgunners who don't....
Bob
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My criteria for an underlever (not fond of side-levers)
Nitro Piston
Open sights
Weaver scope rail
Wood stock
Light weight (under 8 lbs)
12-20 FPE
Priced under $200 and you have yourself a gold mine.
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I kind of figured you would Bob,,but didn't want to assume he he.It's nice though as there are many that don't, so having the 500fps version would surely sell a lot of rifles.
Thanks,
Troy
I'm not much of a sidelever lover myself.Underlever all the way.
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Something like this in .22 cal? .... Only I would add a multi-shot magazine, that automatically indexed every time it was cocked.
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https://www.pyramydair.com/product/browning-leverage-air-rifle?m=2456 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/browning-leverage-air-rifle?m=2456)
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And two pair of pants, LOL! :D :D :D You guys don't ask for much. If they buildit to Whiscombe specs and QC, no one will be able to afford it. Decent trigger, good sights (how about a real factory peep?) and non-FT stock. Let's face it, the FT crowd can restock it to their measurements anywho. Other's will actually want to take it into a real hunting field. Nitro piston would be nice. Better smooth than over-the-top power. And, please, no fake brake that looks like an attachment to my shop vac. Cheers!
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Imho, I think that we have run this thread into the ground.
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Underlever, comes with a spare lower power spring. No need for a compressor. Wood stock not thumbholes please. Something that will put out a decent amount of FPE at higher altitudes 13fpe or better. Weaver Rail, don't care if it has open sights or not. Carbine and shrouded. No plastic. Not bulky like the B40, TX200 or Pro Sport.
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Two springs? That would run contrary to most factory warranties.
Guys, keep it real. This isn't Santa Claus who's asking. They have to market these guns to more than forum members.
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"Imho, I think that we have run this thread into the ground." .... yote
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Ya' think??? ...
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Two springs? That would run contrary to most factory warranties.
Guys, keep it real. This isn't Santa Claus who's asking. They have to market these guns to more than forum members.
Opps didn't think of that. Good catch.
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Crosman, if you're still watching this thread, here is my suggestion.
Contact Retay Arms of Turkey and import their Troy 100X: http://www.retaygun.com/UList.aspx?KID=15 (http://www.retaygun.com/UList.aspx?KID=15)
Make sure you get the model with the integrated Weaver base, replace the spring power plant with your excellent Nitro Piston technology, and stamp "Crosman" on the side. Offer it in .177 and .22 cal, retail it for under $300, and I will buy one in a heartbeat.
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if you're still watching this thread, here is my suggestion. Contact Retay Arms of Turkey and import their Troy 100X...
I'm trying NickB79! I have a few coming soon. Obviously not NP, but I do need to sell them after testing to try and break even...
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Well, we finally see the results of our labors. The MAV 77. Sorry, but did you even bother to read the five pages of suggestions in reply to your query? Someone asked for a gun to compete with the TX200. Another for a gun to be made in USA. Yet another wished for a gun not as bulky as a TX. How about a good gun but not as expensive as an HW or Diana underlever? No one asked for a copy of the TX200, made in China if I am not mistaken. We have (or should say "had) that in the BAM40. Will this at least have some internal improvements? A Nitro piston, etc? And, with an MSRP of $530, maybe you should change your handle to DoublePrice.
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Easy Red, They might have another in the wings, better yet, they might be looking for testers! LOL
pv
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Uncle Paulie, for over five hundred clams, those testers would be bigger fish than the one you're holding, LOL!
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Crosman go back and rethink this pricing a $269.00 MSRP China B40 TX200 clone rebranded as a Benjamin for $530 is insane when the real deal TX200 is $569
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I don't remember anybody wanting a Double priced China rifle??? LOL
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AT $530 this will be a biggest flop of the year, quite the feat after a era of rebirth and growth...
I hope there will be some changes at Crosman or it is heading backwards
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Made in USA with a quality USA or German barrel.
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anybody notice they have not open the Crosman Blog up for comments on the new models?
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I'm not sayin' we are or we aren't, but we want to know your thoughts on under lever break barrel guns. What do you like, dislike, feature wish list....what would be your ideal under lever?
We're listening.
A free one.
Mike
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I've been resisting an underlever for some time, but at $530, I'm more likely to give the XS46U a try for $130.
I love my B26. Wonder if Crosman will be bringing out an R9 clone for $530 soon too? I liked the B26 better for under $200...
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Consistent quality control. Not a hit or miss in purchase of the same products. Oh a threaded muzzle for a ???????? or a baffled shroud.
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That's pretty lame to ask for input and then totally ignore all of it and just rebadge a chinese copy of an Air Arms gun. Then they ask just a bit less than the Air Arms price. They must think we airgun shooters are very dense.
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Simple...take a good look (buy one and dismantle it) at the Air Arms Pro Sport hidden underlever.
Make it with a very good gas piston, polished and deburred parts, great finish, excellent trigger and .177 at 880fps with Cros Premier pellets. Oh, and make it with a 1/2 inch threaded (female) barrel/muzzle for quiet accessories. You don't have to play in the Gamo/Krapo underlever market "game". Give real airgun shooters who appreciate fine products what they want and we will beat a path to your door.
And if I didn't mention it already (hah) a great trigger. The Cros engineers should have a goal of putting the aftermarket trigger folks out of business, at least with Cros products. This is not rocket science, trigger geometry is well known and out there for 20+ years. Why can Weihrauch do it and you guys can't? (Rekord trigger)
Don't chase Gamo and the Chinese guns, that "stuff' is out there for those who want to dismantle a new gun and re-build it for twice what they paid for it. Build a great, $400 gas spring gun as noted above and it will sell.
I would buy one of these guns tomorrow if you made it right, so would many others.
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Here are pics of the Air Arms, Bam B40, and Crosman guns. Isn't there a law against taking a Chinese copy, doubling the price, and reselling it? Or what about a law for copying the Air Arms gun? Can Crosman get away with this because AA is a British company and therefore not protected under US law?
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I like the TX200 and therefore the B40 and MAV 77. But I have become a gas spring convert and probably would not own any of them at this point in time. The TX200, B40, and MAV 77 cannot easily accept a gas spring. After looking at pictures of the trigger of the Hatsan 200s, I suspect it could accept a gas spring. And it has a lot of the other features of the TX200 that I like. Until I see an exploded schematic, I won't know for sure. I think Crosman should have gone for a gas spring equipped 200s to sell as there underlever. Crosman has been pushing gas springs big time in there spring guns. Are they changing course?
PS - I like the Prosport even more than the TX200, but it cannot accept a gas spring either.
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That's what engineering depts. are for, figure out how to do it. The Pro Sport is the goal, let engineering do their homework and make it happen. We have gone so far in spending $200 in mods after buying $300 guns that the makers don't even care any longer. They have dumbed us into lawyer-land with krapo triggers and bent barrels and shrouds that don't fit, etc, etc, etc.
You could fill ten Forum Servers with Benjamin Trail and Marauder complaints and mods and quality issues. Why?
Would you buy a $500 Weatherby .308 and put another $500 in it? Really? That's crazy. Higher end airguns should be no diffrerent.
Of course, Air Arms patents should not be infringed upon, but a hidden underlever is not a patent, it's a design goal.
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Bobster, ty for the photos... yeah that really looks like the Bam b40.
Hopefully someone at crosman fixes that 530 price tag to a 350.
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where is this "$530" price tag coming from. I've seen this in a couple posts and it seems WAAAAAAYYYY off base. I could be wrong (LOL) and often am. But I looked at Crosman's site and there was no price. If its 530 crosman will have a flop, but at 200-300 it will be a huge hit............so to the peole throughing "$530" around...where did you hear or get this figure? cheers,Bart
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The BAM B40 was only $269.00 when it was a new model and sold as low as $230.....its not worth $300 even. They were typical Chinese rifles hit and miss. IF you got a good one they were nice. The bad ones well they became a loss.
I had one in .22 that was a good one once the spring had fitted guides made it shot great. Wish I never sold and I sold it way to cheap.
For them to even suggest a MSRP of $530 when the real deal is $569 is insulting...
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The Benjamin MAV 77 Underlever has an MSRP of $530.00 and will be available in spring.
http://www.crosman.com/croswords/?p=2287 (http://www.crosman.com/croswords/?p=2287)
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SAADE -
Sure they could figure out how to do it. They could even come up with a new design incorporating all of the features that were asked for. It takes an investment of time, money and some risk. But why do any engineering when they can buy a proven, existing design, from a low cost Chinese or Turkish supplier. Nothing wrong with that, unless they really expect to get $500 for it.
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I stand corrected! 530!? good luck Crosman...I hope you didn't buy to many :o
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(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/critter99/mav77.jpg)
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Wow. After reading this thread, I seriously doubt I will buy a Crosman product, regardless of where it's made. This is, to put it simply, pathetic. I'm already looking at choosing a gun that "I" want for my own selfish reasons, and the Trails just went from the top of the list to off the list. I'd rather pay more and not deal with the quality and company integrity issues I have been reading about and seeing in the cheap Storm I was given.
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Wow. After reading this thread, I seriously doubt I will buy a Crosman product, regardless of where it's made. This is, to put it simply, pathetic. I'm already looking at choosing a gun that "I" want for my own selfish reasons, and the Trails just went from the top of the list to off the list. I'd rather pay more and not deal with the quality and company integrity issues I have been reading about and seeing in the cheap Storm I was given.
Crosman still makes a great product and has the best customer service in the industry. While there is much speculation about this being an overpriced chinese clone we have yet to see the product to verify this. Did the Bam b40 have a dual stage trigger? I don't know anything about it.
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Mr. Archer posted that he handled one at the Shot Show and pronounced it to be a B40. All that aside, I wouldn't not buy Crosman. They have responded pretty well to other suggestions such as bringing back the 1322, doing their own nitro piston, etc. I didn't mean to slam Crosman, per se. Just that it's a bit disappointing to see this particular gun being touted as new and so forth. Sort of like back in the 80's when Detroit would unveil next year's exciting new model only to be shown the same stodgy sedan they were peddling the last three years with a bit of new trim (or less). I would have been happier if Crosman had taken another stab at an improved Sterling under-lever. Funky looking but at least different.
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Yes it was TX200 clone in almost every detail...2 stage trigger quite nice too
Could even fit into a TX 200 stock with a slight mod to the stock
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/critter99/B40%20for%20sale/tx3.jpg)
worth the $269-$230 THEY SOLD FOR
My 22 B40 thats gone
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/critter99/B40%20for%20sale/IMG_0462.jpg)
with 14.3 CP
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/critter99/B40%20for%20sale/IMG_0471.jpg)
I had one in .22 that was a good one once the spring had fitted guides made it shot great. Wish I never sold and I sold it way to cheap.
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Wow. After reading this thread, I seriously doubt I will buy a Crosman product, regardless of where it's made. This is, to put it simply, pathetic. I'm already looking at choosing a gun that "I" want for my own selfish reasons, and the Trails just went from the top of the list to off the list. I'd rather pay more and not deal with the quality and company integrity issues I have been reading about and seeing in the cheap Storm I was given.
Crosman still makes a great product
Perhaps, but that's when you dont have to send it back, fix it, and get lucky enough to get a "good" one apparently. Even their "high end" products seems to have more issues than most. To me, this is fairly shady practice to simply rebadge a much cheaper chinese import and charge double although yes, I'm aware it's old hat for some manufacturers.
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I'm not interested in slamming Crosman either, but I just don't like this shady stuff at all. It really irks me. Why ask for input and make a show of acting like you are being genuine and then do this? It's not right in my book.
I had my first Crosman gun 27 years ago. It was darn well made. That built a lot of loyalty for me. Then last year I bought a nitro venom and after looking into it many had the same problems that I did. The standard now seems to be "buy it and hope you get one that works". Sure they will replace it if it doesn't work but is it really too much to ask for it to work as it's supposed to? Why do such a large number have to be sent back? The quality control is very poor now IMO. Also just a few weeks ago a bought a 1377 that was shoddy after about 20 shots or so. I replaced that one and the one I have now shoots really accurate ONLY when it's over-oiled for some reason. After a few shots it's starts getting wild again. Then I oil it and it is fine. I wonder if the oil is compensating for poor seals? I guess I will have to return that one too. It's frustrating.
I guess it's really two separate issues: one of quality control and the other being of trust. The quality control issue doesn't get an emotional response from me but deceiving people does. I just don't like it. They created so much loyalty for me based on my experience in my youth. But now I'm going to make a conscious effort to buy other products.
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Whoa $530 for a TX200 knockoff? Count me out. I'm waiting for a good price on a RWS48 though.
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I would like to see a copy of the RWS460 with a nitro piston, a weaver rail and made in the USA. I would gladly pay extra if it were made in the USA!
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Improved NPSS with good quality (see flyers comments). This rifle I think has almost everything I would want.
Shrouded barrel (Quiet) work on improving the barrel
Nitro Piston
underleever
Figure out a way to use bipod that does not affect the groupings
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$530? At least a LW barrel and still a hard sell compared to proven British and German quality. With such bad reputation with quality control.
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I'm not sayin' we are or we aren't, but we want to know your thoughts on under lever break barrel guns. What do you like, dislike, feature wish list....what would be your ideal under lever?
We're listening.
What I don't like about this deal is the fact that my second Trail npxl 1500 has problems and the cold shoulder I got from customer service for it.This is a clear example of the accounting department swaying the popular vote,in my opinion,that one is going to hurt.
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Five hundred and thirty dollars for a Crosman? Surely they jest. Why pay that much for a unproven cheap Chicom knockoff? When for a few more coppers you can have the finely crafted, Brit made real thing. With it's proven reputation for quality. Over the years (about to turn 51) I've owned more then my fare share of Crosman products. I can honestly say that I've never gotten less then what I paid for out of them. But I would never even think of paying this much for one. It's a Crosman, they make cheap fun plinkers. Everyone knows that.
We all know that the trigger is going to not so good and the scope will be subpar. So right off the bat. Those will need to be replaced. This will add to the price. The wooden stock will make it heavy and I don't see any provisions for a sling. Hunting rifles need slings. If they can put a sling on a break barrel. Then they could have put one on this. Its .177 caliber. That's not a hunting caliber. That's for target shooting. The barrel doesn't have a shroud or any threads on the end. So its most likely going to be loud and not backyard friendly. The power plant is a spring? Why is the company that pushes Nitro Piston putting a spring in their most expensive rifle? Aren't they good enough? I don't see any fancy checkering, iron sight, weaver rails, adjustable butt pad and cheek piece or anything that makes this gun stand out. What were they thinking?
I really want to add an underlever to my battery. But I don't think that it will be this one. Not for that price.
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They changed MSRP to $350. A fellow member said Crosman tweeted it.
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They can't possibly be serious with the $500+ price. No one's is going to pick this gun over a TX200.
Even if it was an exact copy of a TX200, I would still get the TX.
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They changed MSRP to $350. A fellow member said Crosman tweeted it.
That's more reasonable.
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$310 sounds better without the scope. Maybe that given comments might help being it might not be in full production yet. Says it will come out in the spring.
Would nice to give one to one of the GTA moderators for testing and review.
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Gee, guys. .177 is no good for hunting. I will trade you one of my .22's for three of your krappy old .177's. What, no takers?
$350 does sound much more in the ballpark on this one, which is what I first thought it would be priced at. Again, I am NOT trying to seriously knock Crosman (and I think this has started to get a little out of hand). Just struck me as kind of odd that they canvassed us here (and elsewhere), only to serve warmed up leftovers, so to speak. Still, that's a really good dish.
Copy of a Diana 460? I don't want to see ANYMORE cheap Chinese copies. First off, like it or not, the sales hurt the companies who made or still make the originals. Second, while there are no international patents, it is still not right for companies here or elsewhere to encourage this sort of design piracy, which is what it is. If this were a case of pirated software, most here wouldn't stand for it. And there ARE international laws against that. Just getting tired of watching good air gun companies being drawn through the loophole.
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Guys lets get this clear, Retail is going to be about $350, MSRP is $530. You're talking about recommended price from Crosman versus what it will actually be on sale for
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A free one would be nice considering the fact that many of us had guns that had to go back. Some had 2 or more with bad barrels, bad lock up problems, bad scopes, stocks that split and bear traps that failed causing bent barrels.
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I like to buy products made in America. I may buy this underlever if it is
1- Capable of hunting.
2- Made in the USA WITHOUT the foreign components.
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I would like to see a copy of the RWS460 with a nitro piston, a weaver rail and made in the USA. I would gladly pay extra if it were made in the USA!
I'm with you pappa. I would like a nitro piston for my RWS 34 free for all my trouble with the 2 Trails I had.
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i would love a crosman under lever one with open sights and a weaver scope mount nitro piston gun with a all weather summit style stock sling mounts that shoots 1000fps in either .22 or .177 cal i like the .177 cal
That would be a .22 caliber, shooting a TRUE 1000 fps with 14.3gr LEAD pellets, Nitro Piston, Weaver / Picatinny rail, fully adjustable two-stage trigger ( not a "lawyer trigger" ), and HIGH-QUALITY, precision-adjustable Iron Sights, to be sold WITHOUT a Scope !
Dave
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Hopefully this initial offering will be reviewed. I hope so...
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See my Good News post in the Crosman-Benji Gate
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made in USA with better QC.I would pay a bit more for that!
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This rifle no matter how it is developed will not please everyone. If it has a good dependable platform. Crosman may have a custom shop for this rifle if it becomes a solid performer. At least Crosman has had asked for opinions which is a start. We all can take or leave it. It seems much of US consumers want to buy from a US company and are frustrated that they have to turn to other sources to be satisfied.
In my opinion quality control is something that has to be learned it's like a science in its self. It is a process that is hard to do from the bottom up. With the good reviews Crosman can have a good product if there were not so many hit or miss products. Not sure that if would be such a profit lost if a good productive system of manufacturing can be achieved. I think it will only benefit the company.