2400kt, Bottled, Regulated

[BigTinBoat]

Hmm.  Hadn't thought of that!  What about using a couple of elbows then?  What thread am I looking for? 5/8 x 18 unf if I remember right?  I could then use a hose between the second elbow and the fill nipple.  Would you recommend going with a rigid part there as well?

Here is what I did. For your application you could end with a Female QC instead of a 1/8" NPT going in the end cap.
My elbow is rated at 6Kpsi and that brass nipple is rated at 7100PSI. Made by a company named Hoke


Below is how it wound up. I epoxied a 1/4" alum pin to the bottom of the bottle and drilled a 1/4" hole into the stock. The bottle is very secure. I've taken it off and on several times. Right now I am in the process of putting a .25 barrel on it

[aPpYe]

The output of the regulator is 1/2"-14 NPS, sealed with an O-ring.... The female threads on the QD fitting are 1/8" NPT.... If you use a standard paintball tank valve (that fits on the 1/2"-14 NPS threads), they usually have a side port, which you could arrange facing upwards, that is 1/8" NPT female threads.... One more elbow and you could have the flow facing back towards the QD, and that could all be done with 1/8" NPT threads, PROVIDING you use high pressure fittings.... Do NOT use brass plumbing or gas-line fittings for this job, only ones rated for at least 3000 psi.... You might need a short hex nipple (double male) in the valve, and then a street "L" (female to male) to get the right height....

Would you recommend going with a tube versus the steel braided hose in this case?  I was figuring to go with flexible hose because I want to make sure nothing has undue stress on it, and I want to get the bottle as close to the tube, and then as far back as possible.  Maybe an extended nipple of sorts? 

Also, with this whole avenue of discussion, what am I doing to my overall plenum volume versus the original plan of going with a QB block?  I would think it is increasing somewhat, as I would no longer be cutting the tube, and adding tubes and fittings, ASA's etc., although I don't know how far the disco fill adapter goes into the tube, or how thick it is, all in comparison to the QB block. 

Here is what I did. For your application you could end with a Female QC instead of a 1/8" NPT going in the end cap.
My elbow is rated at 6Kpsi and that brass nipple is rated at 7100PSI. Made by a company named Hoke

Heh heh ... Okay, so today I have learned a whole lot of new initials!  UNF, NPT, NPS, etc.  I am not sure what you man by QC...  I will definitely look into the Hoke company, although I might want steel fittings (if they are available) since they are going to be sitting out in the world unprotected.  If the gun gets knocked over, I want to feel better about the strength of the fittings.  Isn't brass pretty soft?  Maybe I am being paranoid.  Also, for my application, I cannot hang the bottle with the fill cap directly above the ASA like that, as I am using a much shorter tube.  This is what had me thinking of going with a steel braided hose and the discovery fill nipple.  Check out my mockup below:



Also, I want to mount the bottle as close to the tube as possible, since the bottle will act as the only forestock that the gun will have.  That said, I have admired that black gun of yours for some time now!  I am really wanting to securely mount the bottle as such so it can act as a solid forestock, and I really like the idea of securing it at the back as you and others have done.  Some of this planning might have to wait until I actually have the gun in hand.

If I do this again someday, I might go the route you did, although the QB's are a bit heavy for my tastes, which is what prompted me to order the 2400kt.  I hope I don't regret the decision, as there seems to be a general consensus that the QB's tend to have better barrels... 

[BigTinBoat]

QC stands for Quick Connect - the female foster fitting. In your diagram you call it a quick release.

Thanks for the compliments on my 78. It's a bit different right now. It's a .25 "Carbine" now. Got a 18" barrel from Roy at MA. I put a Delrin poppet in it and drilled the ports all out to 3/16". I also did a bit more dremel on the valve body. Just shot a 25.4 King and the Chrony said 846. That's 40FPE. Waiting on an LDC from Baxter 'cause it's LOUD.

[aPpYe]

I was thinking that, but I have absorbed so much knowledge today, I was a little bit on overload.

So, when you say I could "end with a Female QC instead of a 1/8" NPT going in the end cap," what you describe isn't quite working out in my head.  Especially with an ASA valve, I would think the nipple would at around 28" (on my diagram), and with just an elbow the QC would have to be around 4-5" long!   Don't I need a hose or some sort of extended fitting to get the air the rest of the way back?

[BigTinBoat]

what you describe isn't quite working out in my head.  Especially with an ASA valve, I would think the nipple would at around 28" (on my diagram), and with just an elbow the QC would have to be around 4-5" long!   Don't I need a hose or some sort of extended fitting to get the air the rest of the way back?

From the tank you attach this


then you screw the below nipple into it (just like mine looks)


then screw an elbow like this onto the nipple


then screw the below long nipple into the elbow


finally screw the below QC into the long nipple


this QC will then attach to your disco fill nipple

[aPpYe]

I think you just finalized the design of my gun! 

... So what vendors will sell all this stuff at once, without me being a distributor that has to buy them by the lot?

[rsterne]

Sorry, but using a brass pipe nipple like that long one pictured is a BAD idea, unless you can find one rated for the pressures involved.... They are very often thin wall and designed for running an electrical cord through for making a table lamp.... PLEASE be very careful what you use on HPA.... If you can get a very short braided hose, you could use that to make sure there is no mechanical load on the fittings if you fall on the gun, for example....

The Disco fill fitting is about the same length as a QB tank block, but you don't have to shorten the tube to get rid of the threads, so your plenum volume will be slightly larger than with a block....

Bob

Bob

[HappyHunter]

Sorry, but using a brass pipe nipple like that long one pictured is a BAD idea, unless you can find one rated for the pressures involved.... They are very often thin wall...

I agree 100%, Bob. I could very well be wrong, but the long nipple in that pic looks like one you will find in the plumbing section of any hardware store. BIG difference between those & what you would get from a reputable hydraulic shop and/or supplier.

Case in point - hardware store variety on left & one I picked up from Swagelok on right:


To be fair though, Rob did state that the nipple he is using is rated for 7100psi so there should be no problems there, although the nipple pictured on his gun is quite different than the last pic…something the OP should keep in mind. Don‘t try and save a few bucks just because Home Depot has a ton of them & they‘re cheap, get the proper ones if going this route & stay safe…

[rsterne]

The nipple on Rob's gun looks like a "Hex Nipple" (like the one in the right in your photo,Todd), and generally of MUCH heavier wall, but even they vary.... I have some (hex nipples) with holes as large as 1/4" or as small as 3/16" (7/32" seems the most common).... The one on the left in your photo looks to be even larger than 1/4" I wouldn't even dream of using it on a CO2 gun....

Bob

[BigTinBoat]

Sorry, but using a brass pipe nipple like that long one pictured is a BAD idea, unless you can find one rated for the pressures involved....

Hoke makes brass 1/8" nipples up to 2.5" they are rated to 7100SPI, they also have SS ones in the same length that are rated to 12,300psi.


Scroll down to the 3rd page in below link.

http://www.hoke.com/pdf/pipe_fitting_catalog_79026_10.12.pdf

I was just using those pics so he would get the "picture" of how to put it together.  For the long run he could just use a 5K hose with 1/8" npt on both ends.
Ninja makes them like this

[rsterne]

I think the straight flex hose is a better solution than a long, rigid connection.... too much leverage on the threaded portion where it's the weakest....

Bob

[BigTinBoat]

I think the straight flex hose is a better solution than a long, rigid connection.... too much leverage on the threaded portion where it's the weakest....

Bob

If he has to go 4" I agree 100%, especially if the bottle support is questionable.

[aPpYe]

Hi All,

Please understand that I am in no way wanting to go cheap with hardware store parts ...  I have heard and wholeheartedly understand and agree with the mantra against using plumbing fittings, conduit, etc., and risking your life to save a pretty small amount of money, especially considering the investment into the whole project.  While I am a newbie, I am definitely a safety first kind of guy, I have a wife and kids and I don't want one of them getting maimed by an HPA time bomb.  I definitely want to go with high pressure rated fittings and I want to make sure this is done as safely as possible.  This is what had me initially thinking of going with the braided hose, as I figured it is safer than a rigid connection, allowing the setup to flex if need be. 

Now that I have gotten that out of the way, does anyone have experience with the microbore hoses?  I noticed them on Mac1 earlier today, BigTinBoat's example of the braided ninja hose sent me to their site, and now I am seeing them again.   It's got me thinking.  According to Mac1, these are "5000+ PSI" rated. In fact, Ralston Instruments claims that they maintain a working pressure of 6900 psi...  They look to be flexible enough to go directly from the ASA to the fill nipple, or even 180 degrees from the reg with the proper ends...  This would allow me to bypass elbows and whatnot.

He sells one in 18" and there is a dropdown that shows a 24" for $5 more.  I am wondering if this means he can also make them in custom shorter lengths?  I would think I only need maybe 6" or so...  Ralston even has a "custom shop" of sorts that allows me to design just that.  If course, I would probably have to buy a whole pallet of them.  It would be cleaner to look at for sure...  The idea would be to enclose it in something that would protect from snags and whatnot...

Does all this sound safe to you guys?

[BigTinBoat]

Now that I have gotten that out of the way, does anyone have experience with the microbore hoses?  I noticed them on Mac1 earlier today, BigTinBoat's example of the braided ninja hose sent me to their site, and now I am seeing them again.   It's got me thinking.  According to Mac1, these are "5000+ PSI" rated. In fact, Ralston Instruments claims that they maintain a working pressure of 6900 psi...  They look to be flexible enough to go directly from the ASA to the fill nipple, or even 180 degrees from the reg with the proper ends...  This would allow me to bypass elbows and whatnot.

I don't think I would put that much bend (to get bottle as close as you want it) in a Microbore hose. From an elbow right to the fil nipple should be fine. I'm sure if you check a local hydraulics shop they could make you one the size you want.


Here is a pic of mine bent to the point where it begins to put pressure on the support spring.

[electricjelly]

I'm considering doing this to my 2400kt.  There are so many ways to go about it,  it can be a little overwhelming.  This thread is becoming a wealth of information.  I'll be keeping an eye on your build.  If it turns out as awesome as I think it will,  it should be a good roadmap. Thanks for sharing your project and thanks for all the contributors sharing this great info.

[aPpYe]

I don't think I would put that much bend (to get bottle as close as you want it) in a Microbore hose. I'm sure if you check a local hydraulics shop they could make you one the size you want.

You just had to reach over and pop my bubble, didn't you?    I see your point though.  Sigh.  Okay, I will start shopping around for the fittings today...

I think I will go with a 45 degree street elbow (yeah, I know what a street elbow is now!!!) and the microbore, as it flexes more than the steel braided, making it more forgiving of bottle placement.

I'm considering doing this to my 2400kt.  There are so many ways to go about it,  it can be a little overwhelming.  This thread is becoming a wealth of information.  I'll be keeping an eye on your build.  If it turns out as awesome as I think it will,  it should be a good roadmap. Thanks for sharing your project and thanks for all the contributors sharing this great info.

Check me out becoming a wealth of information!  I am right there with you on the whole overwhelming thing ...  Two months ago I read rsterne's famous "QB79 Ninja - The $200 PCP" thread and was hooked.  I had no idea how to go about things then, but check me out now, debit card in hand and ready to blow some money!

[aPpYe]

Okay for the 45 degree elbow, I see this one from fastenal, this one from McMaster-Carr, and this one from Grainger.

Obviously I like the price of the fastenal one the best, but I am wondering if the male end is too long.  I don't want it bottoming out in the ASA... 

I like that the one at McMaster-Carr is is of "heavy duty forged or barstock steel construction" and that "the male threads are rolled for extra strength," whatever that means.  It does say it operates with a "Maximum psi @ 72° F" of 5,900, whereas the other two say they have a maximum "working pressure" of 5000 psi.

I also have the one from Grainger listed just to keep my options open.  It is the most expensive of the three.

I would think any of the three would be good.  Do any of you know if the fastenal one is too long, or if the McMaster-Carr pressure rating actually means that the others would likely be higher rated because they use the term "working pressure?"

Am I splitting hairs here?

[aPpYe]

Hmm.  I just thought of another thing...  The disco fill adapter must have a valve in it to prevent air from escaping when you fill the tube, right?  Would this valve interfere with regulator efficiency?  Meaning is it going to make it so the regulator is less able to keep the psi in as tight of a spread as possible?

Also, the quick disconnect feature really isn't all that important to me, and I worry that it is another source of potential leakage...  Does the nipple screw into the cap with the same 1/8" npt thread?  If it does, I would think I could just do away with it and screw my hose end directly into the cap...

With this setup, I am thinking that I would also be increasing my plenum volume a little more, as the air would be wide open all the way back to the regulator output.  I don't know how narrow the porting is through all of this plumbing, and I also don't know how much these diameters would affect average pressure during the shot with the extra plenum volume...

Maybe I should rethink the microbore and go back to the wider steel hose to further increase volume!  I would feel warmer and fuzzier safety-wise with a braided hose anyway.  Does this all sound logical, or am I on another hair splitting adventure, ricing my gun at this point?

... and look what I found!  1/8" NPT!!!


Now I am seriously considering this whole steel braided hose directly from my 45 to the tube thing ...

[aPpYe]

From the tank you attach this

I have to admit, I am having a good amount of trouble finding these things.  What are they called?  I see a lot of coiled remote lines here and there with similar things attached, but they all seem to be for CO2.  Can someone help me?  I did find this thing, and it says it is rated for 3000psi, but the reviews are somewhat mediocre, one person talking about how it messed up the pin valve on their tank, etc...  It would be nice to be able to turn off the pressure from the tank when I want to dig into the gun at some point...

[BigTinBoat]

From the tank you attach this

I have to admit, I am having a good amount of trouble finding these things.  What are they called?  I see a lot of coiled remote lines here and there with similar things attached, but they all seem to be for CO2.  Can someone help me?  I did find this thing, and it says it is rated for 3000psi, but the reviews are somewhat mediocre, one person talking about how it messed up the pin valve on their tank, etc...  It would be nice to be able to turn off the pressure from the tank when I want to dig into the gun at some point...

They are called ASA on/off CO2 fill valves or a combination of these words. I buy my from "trusted" sellers on Ebay. $10-$12 depending on whether or not you get one with 2 ports (1 for a gauge).
I use the CO2 ones as my regs don't go above 1500PSI.