Flyng Dragon PCP Air Tube Failure

[rsterne]

AlanB.... with all due respect, the tubes supplied with the FD-PCPs were NOT the original tubes supplied on a XS-60c, they are longer, and made from a different tubing.... What Mike is using in the current production FD-PCPs is unknown to anyone but Mike.... I certainly have no idea if they are still the same material, made to the same specifications, or not.... He will not answer our questions about that.... I would refer any FD-PCP owners to the following thread....  http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=99476.0

Bob

[Kailua]

  Everyone who knows of the problem has choices to make.  Not using the rifle would be a safer choice and have the right to do so.  But what about the owners who are not aware of this problem.  Should there be an greater effort to inform them on that choice?  JMO

[AlanB]

No respect needed towards me- I feel for any one that has to source goods from 'there' for any reason-

'Dealt' with them before - over sea suppliers- and never had good outcome, even to the point that they wanted to replicate and steal our products to make there and retail here-- they are sneaky that way...
MANY parts failed early or made out of spec but we (the co) got stuck with the junk and lost money just to go back to a US source for those components-

Just think how all this would have turned out had the wife been hit??

WHY do "we" accept cheap good from there?? Because they are 'cheap' and WE are want it even  cheaper??

I hope Mike does not take a big hit for this- or at all, but folks in this world love lawyers and love to blame any one but them selves - even when they choose cheap over GOOD.

not worth life or limb

[Kailua]

   Correct me if I am wrong.  But this may not be the result of a poorly made Chinese product.  But a poorly manufactured American aftermarket part.

[avator]

I think we would better serve the group if we knew facts before we added more controversy to the thread. The XS-60c GenI was manufactured as a C02 ONLY rifle. They were discontinued by the Chinese for quality issues. The remaining stock was exiled to a warehouse. Mr. Mellick was able to purchase these guns, repair the leaking issue, convert them to bulk HPA and offer them as a tinkerer's gun with no warranty for $100. Anyone who bought these guns was fully aware of this. It was clearly posted on the website and spoke of quite often here on the GTA. It's unfortunate that this has happened... quite honestly, I can believe it's the only major incident... you all might remember one individual that had no business even owning one.. he went after a charged pressure tube with vise grips and a hammer. I have 3 of them and I have degassed and checked the "slop" in mine. I ust have hit the FD-PCP lotto because mine fell pretty snug once they are threaded in.  I feel confident that if I stay within the 1500psi recommended fill pressure. And I still think it just might be the best $100 i've spent on an airgun. I don't have any death wish... I ain't jumping out of a perfectly good air plane but, I'm gonna shoot my FD-PCP guns and periodically break them down and see if things are deteriorating. And I will refrain from posting any of my plinking, hunting or tuning of this rifle on the GTA until the "all clear" is posted. Will you read about me in the obits one day? Probably but, the odds of it being due to ahead on collision with some drunk are probably greater than death by the mysterious exploding FD-PCP. That being said... I think it's awesome that the GTA makes the recommendation to degas and cease to use these guns. It's a great way to get the word out that there has been an incident. I feel like I'm part of a fellowship that truley cares about me. I appreciate folks like Bob Sterne enlightening me. He is a wealth of knowledge and is more than willing to share. But  what I don't like is mud slinging and unfounded statements from people who don't know the facts and like to read what they wrote.

[Motorhead]

Going to break my 90 year old Father In Laws heart to take away the 60c PCP loaned to him for wood pecker control.
He just loves that rifle !! and giggles every time asked "Well .. hows it shootin ?"

It gets filled to 1350# off a Crosman 3k regulated bottle set up also loaned to him.

  have to get back out to his place and break the sad news 

[avator]

Going to break my 90 year old Father In Laws heart to take away the 60c PCP loaned to him for wood pecker control.
He just loves that rifle !! and giggles every time asked "Well .. hows it shootin ?"

It gets filled to 1350# off a Crosman 3k regulated bottle set up also loaned to him.

  have to get back out to his place and break the sad news 

Just to be clear.... I would do the same thing. Shooting it myself is one thing.....

[Booger]

Going to break my 90 year old Father In Laws heart to take away the 60c PCP loaned to him for wood pecker control.
He just loves that rifle !! and giggles every time asked "Well .. hows it shootin ?"

It gets filled to 1350# off a Crosman 3k regulated bottle set up also loaned to him.

  have to get back out to his place and break the sad news 

Just loan him your S410. If he doesn't want it I will take it on loan. 

[Tommy]

I will continue to shoot mine. I have been in it more times than I can count and will keep inspecting it as I do it and my Disco. I agree with Bill that we will make our own decisions based on our knowledge of the guns. Thanks to the GTA we are aware of a failure but I seem to recall a failure of a gun that uses a rear tank and someone was injured. These guns are still sold with the rear tank.
I hope all are safe with whatever gun they use
Tom

[Wood Boats]

What did the inside of the barrel band look like?  If the threads on the tube end did fail and unravel like a spring I would expect to see evidence of this inside the barrel band.  Looking at what little we can actually see of the treads in the receiver the scrapes look consistent with something being drug across them.  I am only guessing obviously, but have seen pressure related failures of this type in person with the female threads having a serrated appearance.

On a side note:  In dive school we teach to never empty tanks completely as a completely depressurized cylinder is more likely to corrode inside than one with even 100 psi remaining.  Especially when dealing with  dissimilar metals. 

[Gerard]

That is an excellent contribution Wood Boats, thanks man. I've always maintained at least a few hundred PSI in my PCPs just feeling that the seals will stay sealed better that way. Now I have another reason. So far my inspections of each tube I've opened has shown zero corrosion, perfectly smooth surfaces whether steel or aluminum, while I've only ever used an FX pump, in a damp climate. I'm careful to properly vent the hose and pump at the end of each fill and leave the pump vents open at base and top for evaporation of moisture between uses. I also pace my pumping carefully so as not to unduly increase condensation.

[AirCats]

interesting thread.

I have a FDPCP gen1.5 and was a little concerned about the soft receiver material. But seems like it was not the source of failure here.

Took mine out and check the pressure in the tube.  It is seating at 600 psi now so probably low enough to not be a concern. The reason for such a low pressure is that I drained it down a bit last time in preparation for installing a push-to-connect fitting ( I do not like the possibility of hooking my 2.5K output air bottle to the foster-nipple on the FDPCP by mistake. Using a different fitting basically prevents such possibility).

One question about the tube thread: is it a tapered "pipe" thread? Is the thread in the receiver tapered? Since the sealing is done by the flat seal just ahead of the valve, there is probably no need for pipe thread.

[Cal]

Just got the "official notice" from GTA regarding the decese and desist order.

Though I don't have one of the identified problems.  I will NEVER entrust the "Vast wisdom" of some group to decide my fate.  I will use my own good sense and observations.

I do have a very enjoyable other airgun from MM,  and have not troubles reading and understanding the "conditions of use".

I suggest the entire whoopla "grow a pair!"  No one looks out for you like you will!

[Fudgey Sycles]

Id never keep a fully charged rifle in such a flimsy case. I keep my synthetics breaks in socks.. (gun socks) but all powder and wood stays in a hard case. I wonder if that had anything to do with it.

[spike]

if it looks like a duck , I feel fortunate that the threads of the receiver and of the tube on my gen 2 mesh snugly and smoothly , any one that has run a die head and chasers to cut threads on an OD , know that the die head can be adjusted to small , and that all parts don't get inspected when running an order , I think its quite possible the tube threads were undersized , and the tube left the receiver with minimal damage to the receiver threads , the barrel band remaining intact is a little bit of a head scratcher , I have tried removeing the tube on my gen 2 through the barrel bands , it don't work , the tube drags on the bands and gets bound up , the bands have to come off first , but I haven't tried blasting the tube thru the bands with 1450 pounds of HPA , glad no one got hurt

[rsterne]

The threads in the receiver and on the tube are NOT tapered pipe threads, they are 22mm x 1mm straight thread.... The seal is against the end of the tube....

Bob

[Josan]

So are there any firm conclusions in this case? The topic starter hasn't posted in this topic for months, so apparently he's not that interested any more and without further information there are really no lessons to be learned, except "Be carefull with HPA.", which is pretty obvious. Untill a second one of the FD rifles fails in a better documented manner no reason to be especially worried about those rifles i would say. 

[sixshootertexan]

Die heads are used in high production manufacturing and can cut any thread required. Tapered and straight.

[Motorhead]

So are there any firm conclusions in this case? The topic starter hasn't posted in this topic for months, so apparently he's not that interested any more and without further information there are really no lessons to be learned, except "Be carefull with HPA.", which is pretty obvious. Untill a second one of the FD rifles fails in a better documented manner no reason to be especially worried about those rifles i would say. 

While I somewhat agree on this well discussed failure being the ONLY ONE and not having the offending tube to inspect does raise some doubt on it being an OVER FILL failure.
But then again worse case scenario having another failure than may actually hurt someone or worse !!  is NOT a safe or sane perspective to have IMO 

[ezman604]

So are there any firm conclusions in this case? The topic starter hasn't posted in this topic for months, so apparently he's not that interested any more and without further information there are really no lessons to be learned, except "Be carefull with HPA.", which is pretty obvious. Untill a second one of the FD rifles fails in a better documented manner no reason to be especially worried about those rifles i would say. 

As you may have read in the announcement post I sent out to all members, no conclusions as of yet. The missing reservoir hinders any conclusive evidence in my opinion.
As for the OP, please understand this was NOT his airgun. He was in the vicinity of the event. The persons that actually own this airgun are not members here and therefore cannot post in the thread. It certainly isn't that they no longer care. Just to let you know.
I have not heard the outcome of the U of I forensic examination. That's all of the information I have available at this time. The more important issue is to get all of these airguns checked and verified to be safe. If not, taken out of service or retrofit to BE safe.