Flyng Dragon PCP Air Tube Failure

[lillysdad621]

looking up the history of the XS60 PCP rifles i come to only this instance of catastrophic failure. There are literally hundreds of this guns in our hands (i still have mine) and have not had anything similar happen. is it possible that we are jumping the gun by feeding this panic? i mean, there is gotta be instances of other rifles (costing a lot more) that have failed similarly, but i dont see a witch hunt started for that... is it because it is a 100$ gun? that does mean that obviously it has to be weak?. I have filled mine to 2k and now im back to 1550 psi, and it still just as solid as when it got to me. I dont think filling to 1450 would have cause that, but i also dont think that it was overfilled to bursting pressure (as it was shot 3 times before it was put away) and if it would have been filled way too much valve lock would have forbidden any shooting through the chrony. the story seems to hold as much water as a seive... something is missing...

[Paul68]

The bottom line is that we don't have all the information. Until the remains are inspected by Mike or someone with the experience to do so, we will only have what we have been told. Additionally, the tube is missing, which unless found will cause further difficulty in determining the definite cause. At this point, all we are doing is engaging in guesswork and conjecture and to go any further would be foolish. There are several possibilities, and perhaps possibilities we have yet to think of. Until all the information is available and the gun inspected, I would suggest we refrain from attempting any conclusions.

[rsterne]

Let me add this simple fact to those who are convinced that an overfill to 3,000 or even 4,500 psi would be fatal to the average PCP.... The Disco has a recommended fill pressure of 2,000 psi.... The first part to fail, and this has been tested, is the valve retaining screws, at about 7,000 psi.... The tube is good for over 10,000 psi.... IMO, no single fill from a 4500 psi tank should cause a PCP rated at 1,500 psi, or for that matter a gun designed to work on CO2 (which can reach 1900 psi at 120*F) to fail in a catastrophic manner.... Does this mean you can overfill a PCP with impunity, of course not.... You will be driving the gun past the point where metal fatigue becomes a problem, and doing so repeatedly is asking to receive the Darwin award.... However, if the gun is designed with the usual 3:1 safety margin, even a ham-fisted fill from a 4,500 psi tank shouldn't cause what happened, IMO....

Is this a one-time incident, or a symptom of a deeper problem, I have NO idea, that's not my responsibility.... I'm just interested in finding out what happened so that hopefully it will never happen again.... If some of you want to argue what pressure the gun was filled to, go right ahead.... but don't try and convince me that an overfill, intentional or otherwise, from the equipment being used (a Joe B setup) is justification for the tube parting company with the gun.... If your attitude about safety is that close to disaster, then please never shoot around me....

Bob

[ezman604]

And if you take the time to really read this entire thread, you would discover that this is not hearsay. The event actually took place at the home of this thread OP's home. All they were interested in is shooting this airgun to see if it shot in the advertised power range before offering it up for sale. And they needed to make certain since they had never shot it in the two years of it being a closet queen.
Yes, they could have spent a hour or so doing a string or two as well as checking accuracy. But I understand he just wanted to move out an airgun he had no use for.
Enough said about that, so let's please stick to the facts and getting to the bottom of this failure.

I DID read the entire thread, and since you use the same word (hearsay) as I did I would presume you are talking to me. I know it's not a good idea to tell a moderator that he is wrong but the below quote coming from Douglas is HEARSAY

The goal as I understand it was to gather a rough idea of what it shoots in order to sell it. I would not need more than 2 shots to do that...
cheers,
Douglas

an hour to shoot a string? For velocity #'s? on a MAX 30 shots per fill gun? Come on, 2 minutes per shot? not even with one of KO's pumpers.

With a single shot PCP would take 10 seconds max to shoot, write number and then reload.

If you want to find out the answer, but then do not question anything that is said, how do you know it's the truth? Ever see a trial where the defense does not get to cross examine the witnesses?

Unless the OP actually filled the gun then the "fact" presented that it was filled to 1450psi is also HEARSAY.

The fact that the gun had NEVER BEFORE BEEN SHOT, unless in the possession of the OP, is also HEARSAY.

please remember that the job of a Moderator is to "Moderate", not take sides

Well Rob, you have been here long enough to know what is acceptable and what is not on GTA Forums. And you are correct, it's not a very good idea to tell the Executive Administrator and registered owner of this forum that he is wrong. Especially when I probably have a bit more of the fact and background than most. The event in discussion happened at Douglas' home, so hearsay? How about eye witness.
The airgun was won by David at a GTA event two years ago and was a closet queen since. He won it by supporting GTA and buying massive amounts of raffle tickets. He has no use for a $100 PCP, just look at the arsenal he shoots on a routine basis. So yes, he pulled it out to shoot a couple of rounds across the chrony to make certain it performed before parting with it. Nothing wrong with that.
I may be the Executive Administrator for this forum and have a lot of management duties, as in keeping this thread on track, but I am also a member and have the right to my opinion too.
My opinion is not in this, I am managing it to keep JUST the facts flowing and to reach a conclusion to this incident. And for the final time we will not tolerate anyone polluting this thread with conjecture and argumentative posts. The outcome of this is very important to a lot of folks and to the entire airgun community. And I do appreciate your corporation in keeping this thread on track. I believe I have also made it clear what the alternative actions are for keeping this thread intact.

[stalwart]

"The outcome of this is very important to a lot of folks and to the entire airgun community."

Absolutely.

It has been suggested, on another forum, that this is being covered up (huh??) because of bias. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I submit that if there is a better qualified group to solve this, given the wide base of expertise, here, in every field even remotely connected, it exists on another planet.

[ezman604]

Well, I certainly hope that wherever this is being said has some of our members there to defend our position on this. And I certainly hope that none of that totally wrong information is not being projected by those directly involved in this incident. As you said, nothing can be farther from the truth. GTA, it's staff and the great family members have not let this subject lie dormant since it first came to our attention. I have personally made several calls and sent many messages to help solve this, definitely not coving anything up. The only thing I'd like to cover up is kitty litter over folks that make those kinds of statements. 

[Rocker1]

Gentlemen this thread has gone farther than any thread of this nature ever has in the history of the GTA and for a purpose.  I have read every comment from the start  and some of it for the most part is ridiculous,  we have conspiracy we have negligence we have people calling others liars and a host of other things just plain wrong. What we want is facts of why this happened reason being for the safety of others that own this gun. Could it happen again??      No persons safety is worth the price of a airgun.
         I am asking that the posters please respect others opinions, this thread is a prime example of why we send them to the NP gate.  HPA is dangerous and we certainly do care about the well being of others regardless of what some think. After all a tornado can drive a drinking straw through a tree so ponder that for a while.   David

[K.O.]

On my 13xxs I  bore out the nose of the valve to .4 from .36 and then pump to about 1300-1500 psi, well if not done right it can go off...

I linked to a thread about one such happening when a guy got one side a bit to thin... cant find the link now though.

[Sfttailrdr46]

There are many different dynamics that were involved in the failure of the rifle and as many of the posts my own included have asked unless you have specific knowledge please refrain from speculation . The administrators have asked for cool heads so in this instance please let the facts speak for themselves and end the foolishness.

[rualert]

     Just replying so I can keep up with this thread. I own two of these rifles and I'm still quite please with both.

Casey

[ezman604]

Hey Casey, not a problem. But for future reference, or for anyone else, all you have to do is look to the right side of the page for the Notify tab. Clicking on that for any thread will notify you when there is an update. A bit easier than having to post to follow a thread.

[Paul68]

That is precisely why caution is warranted. To date, we have a single failure, with no conclusive reason.

GTA puts safety first, so you can be assured as soon as more information is available, it will be produced.
Till then, without any clear indications of definite issues, I personally, and not on behalf of GTA, would recommend you simply maintain normal vigilance and attention to safety when using your FDPCP.

[Tomg]

Ok, I am going to fail my own advice in this reply. How about the admin's delete the superfluous entries not pertaining to facts from the involved parties.


Edit: Ezman604, I get that, no problem.

[ezman604]

I'll give you one reason why I'll not edit this thread. We have already been accused of covering up this incident. I can't for the life of me understand anyone saying that? My gosh, we're up to 6 pages of discussion already and NO posts have been removed. I want it to stay intact but ON POINT so the detractors and the rest of the airgun community can see those statements made elsewhere are pure BUNK!!!
I. and other staff, have pleaded and warned folks to keep the junk out and leave this very important thread to facts and results.
Thanks all for your cooperation!!!

[PakProtector]

Still no tube recovery. My neighbor cut the grass and did not find it with the mower, and given my description of the event is curious too, to the point of going out to look himself. I hope one of us finds it. Further discussion with Dave points toward the rifle not being at a high angle of elevation...but with Bob's calculation of 1k g's that thing would have been going trans-sonic with only a third of a second worth of thrust.
cheers,
Douglas

[ezman604]

Taking into consideration the dampness/dryness and the composition of the ground, it may very well have buried itself nearby. A metal detector would certainly help if you haven't tried that already.

[PakProtector]

Taking into consideration the dampness/dryness and the composition of the ground, it may very well have buried itself nearby. A metal detector would certainly help if you haven't tried that already.

No metal detector. it is possible, but IMO unlikely to have burried itself w/no visible disturbance. If it is in the woods, swinging a metal detector will be problematic.

Douglas

[Ribbonstone]

You'll find it some day....probably  in the fall, in that time frame between the leaves/plants dieing off and snow covering the ground (unless you live where there is no real fall/winter).  Didn't evaporate, so you'll find it when least expected and looking for something else.

Only one reported failure, but it's an important failure even if it a one-off. Lot of these in use, often with new-to-PCP shooters, so it's worth investigation.

Don't find anything wrong with supposition, it's probably healthy to think of ways any PCP could fail.  We tend to get use to the idea of high pressure air and lose some caution though familiarity.

Think I'll go fill my 1st generation and give her a work out.

[dcorvino]

Hi just a thought
What are the odds that the air tube landed on the roof of the house and rolled into a gutter?
Had it happen when I was a kid with a water rocket.
Just an idea

Dave

[Gear_Junkie]

Still no tube recovery. My neighbor cut the grass and did not find it with the mower, and given my description of the event is curious too, to the point of going out to look himself. I hope one of us finds it. Further discussion with Dave points toward the rifle not being at a high angle of elevation...but with Bob's calculation of 1k g's that thing would have been going trans-sonic with only a third of a second worth of thrust.
cheers,
Douglas

I too think it could be buried.  Were you near any buildings such that the tube could be on a roof?