New HW97k (w/barrel droop?)

[Pappy]

As Motorhead notes, it is very unlikely that a HW97 has barrel droop.

It isn't at all. You can align the cylinder and barrel with a measuring rod and you can see how far the barrel drops at the muzzle end. I already sent an HW95 back because the barrel was "backwards" drooping from the locking receiver. It depends on how accurate the worker alignes the barrel with the cylinder. Sometimes they are not correctly aligned and you get that drop.

Here I took an image before it got sent back:

And no, it wasn't from firing the gun cocked with open barrel. That's how it left the factory. I noticed it because I couldn't get a sight picture as I wasn't able to get my eyes low enough on the cheek piece.

A BREAK barrel action and that of a SIDE or UNDER lever action are different animals !!

What TOO FEW realize is that the SCOPE is the issue more times that not when a Fixed Barrel action will not zero +/- 25 yards

In air guns where we need the apex of pellet flight to happen so close to muzzle you actually given choice need barrel to be bent upward at muzzle or Ocular end of scope to be higher than Objective end.

* When a scopes erector assembly has limited Elevation capability it simply cannot correct the intersect so close in.  Compound issue with barrel DROOP and your really out of luck with a scope angle corrective mount or a barrel angle adjustment required.

It is of my professional opinion nearly every time i read posts of folks complaining there FIXED BARREL gun has droop because scope won't zero IT IS THE SCOPE that is the problem or in combination with too high of scope rings / Objective bell diameter exacerbating the issue.

JMO ...
Scott

Hey  roadfix ..... are you reading what Motorhead has been saying?  I also suggest you look at the scope.  I think that Legend scope retails for under $200.00?  I can't believe you put that kind of glass on such a great rifle.     Put some good glass on her, she deserves it.

Probably get grief from all the Bushnell users out there .... oh well ....

Pappy

[roadfix]

Hey  roadfix ..... are you reading what Motorhead has been saying?  I also suggest you look at the scope.  I think that Legend scope retails for under $200.00?  I can't believe you put that kind of glass on such a great rifle.     Put some good glass on her, she deserves it.

Probably get grief from all the Bushnell users out there .... oh well ....

Pappy

OK, fair enough, and I really appreciate all the comments so far! 

To possibly eliminate the scope as one of the variables I will this morning take two other scopes I have, plus the Bushnell, center them, and mount them on my rifle using the old standard one piece mount, no shim, and shoot at the same 30 yard target.
I will report back later...

Thanks!

[roadfix]

To possibly eliminate the scope as one of the variables I will this morning take two other scopes I have, plus the Bushnell, center them, and mount them on my rifle using the old standard one piece mount, no shim, and shoot at the same 30 yard target.
I will report back later..

Ok, firstly, I think I over-guesstimated the POI numbers on my original post.  I edited that post.  Sorry about that. 
This time I actually used a ruler to measure the distances between POA and POI. 

I shot the rifle a few minutes ago using 3 different scopes, centered, at 20 yards and 30 yards.  I shot 5 rounds with each scope, each distance.
At 20 yards they all shot about 4" below and 1.5" to the right of POA.
At 30 yards they all shot about 6" below and 2" to the right of POA.   

And as I brought up in the original post I flipped the old one-piece mount to check for alignment.

So, anyway, is it safe to surmise that all three scopes are performing almost identically at least at center?    Is there anything else I should try to possibly eliminate the scope as the likely problem?

Also, are these POI numbers within acceptable levels?   I can still zero the scope without the use of a shim or droop mount, (although close to running out of turns on the elevation turret, and reason why I just got the BKL droop mount).

Thanks again!

[grauhanen]

To possibly eliminate the scope as one of the variables I will this morning take two other scopes I have, plus the Bushnell, center them, and mount them on my rifle using the old standard one piece mount, no shim, and shoot at the same 30 yard target.
I will report back later...

No need to center the scopes as that won't change anything.  Mount your scopes and test.  If you want to find out how much elevation or windage is left after zeroing, you can do so and rezero.

[Motorhead]

ONLY WAY you will get POA /POI to be on target in the 25+/- range with a optically centered scope is with FULLY adjustable scope mounts.

* Burris ZEE rings may be a good choice here or the Sports Match on a Weaver rail set.

Issue becomes CAN and WILL scope adjust to get on target and not be on the extreme fringe of turrets adjustment range or so far one way your view within ocular gets skewed or parallax / eye position overly sensitive.      

[roadfix]

ONLY WAY you will get POA /POI to be on target in the 25+/- range with a optically centered scope is with FULLY adjustable scope mounts.

Thank you Motorhead, and I understand that.   But that was never my intention to zero an optically centered scope.   As the thread title states, I was basically curious as to whether or not my new rifle had any barrel droop.

At any rate, I am basically able to zero my scope either by shimming the scope mount or by use of my just acquired BKL droop mount.  That gives me plenty of full turns left on the elevation turret.  The turrets are not at any extreme.

But I am still curious as to whether my rifle is exhibiting any barrel droop.   That was the whole point of me centering the scope in the first place.

Thanks!

[Motorhead]

ONLY WAY you will get POA /POI to be on target in the 25+/- range with a optically centered scope is with FULLY adjustable scope mounts.

Thank you Motorhead, and I understand that.   But that was never my intention to zero an optically centered scope.   As the thread title states, I was basically curious as to whether or not my new rifle had any barrel droop.

At any rate, I am basically able to zero my scope either by shimming the scope mount or by use of my just acquired BKL droop mount.  That gives me plenty of full turns left on the elevation turret.  The turrets are not at any extreme.

But I am still curious as to whether my rifle is exhibiting any barrel droop.   That was the whole point of me centering the scope in the first place.

Thanks!

ONLY way I know of that is definitive ... is done with action taken apart.
Trick I use is placing / taping a piece of white paper over end of breech tube where safety would be.
Then using a bore light or laser pointer from muzzle end illuminate bore squarely and see where the light hitting the paper lands.

This will give you a near absolute BORE to RECEIVER alignment picture   

[roadfix]

ONLY WAY you will get POA /POI to be on target in the 25+/- range with a optically centered scope is with FULLY adjustable scope mounts.

Thank you Motorhead, and I understand that.   But that was never my intention to zero an optically centered scope.   As the thread title states, I was basically curious as to whether or not my new rifle had any barrel droop.

At any rate, I am basically able to zero my scope either by shimming the scope mount or by use of my just acquired BKL droop mount.  That gives me plenty of full turns left on the elevation turret.  The turrets are not at any extreme.

But I am still curious as to whether my rifle is exhibiting any barrel droop.   That was the whole point of me centering the scope in the first place.

Thanks!

ONLY way I know of that is definitive ... is done with action taken apart.
Trick I use is placing / taping a piece of white paper over end of breech tube where safety would be.
Then using a bore light or laser pointer from muzzle end illuminate bore squarely and see where the light hitting the paper lands.

This will give you a near absolute BORE to RECEIVER alignment picture   

Thanks again!   I was thinking of using a laser device.    I have a couple of laser alignment tools that I regularly use to collimate my telescopes, perhaps I can somehow see how I can use them on the action and bore. 

[Pappy]

There you go  .... mount one of your telescopes on it!      Just messin'.
Hope you get her settled soon.

Pappy

[Methuselah]

Instead of spending many hours trying to find an excuse to keep a defective gun new in the box right from the factory, I'd return it 10 times out of 3!

$700 (?) and you KNOW from checking it with THREE scopes that all the heavens were aligned just right to give you every manufacturing tolerance known to man working against each other (god forbid the alternative a German company installed a defective part, we all know that can only happen in China...), it's SIX, SIX, SIX, SIX inches off and going twang to boot and you plan on salvaging it by spending more on a special mount!

This is no longer the world to which I was born 

You'll keep it and figure out how to make it work for you, the factory will keep sending out more just like it, the guy who gets the next snafoo'd rifle like yours will keep it thinking 6" off is the best these rifles can do because the dealer tells him how few returns he gets, and the factory not only keeps churning out more booboos, but is thoroughly convinced anyone who would return one is crazy.

Yeah, I get it that you are smart and handy enough to figure it out, you can always bend the barrel later if you want, it's fun learning whats wrong, and the twang will go away when you put a kit in it, but what about the next poor uninitiated sap that gets one just like yours and has to try and get some wretched company like Umarex to help resolve issues they would rather insist don't exist?  Yeah, I know, not a Umarex product, get a prescription for Prozac, get a life...

I just cant help but feel "rage against the light", as quality and demanding to get what you paid for seem to be obsoleted values that seem destined to die with my generation 

My apologies to the group, I'm sure reading me is a waste of time

[Pappy]

Instead of spending many hours trying to find an excuse to keep a defective gun new in the box right from the factory, I'd return it 10 times out of 3!

$700 (?) and you KNOW from checking it with THREE scopes that all the heavens were aligned just right to give you every manufacturing tolerance known to man working against each other (god forbid the alternative a German company installed a defective part, we all know that can only happen in China...), it's SIX, SIX, SIX, SIX inches off and going twang to boot and you plan on salvaging it by spending more on a special mount!

This is no longer the world to which I was born 

You'll keep it and figure out how to make it work for you, the factory will keep sending out more just like it, the guy who gets the next snafoo'd rifle like yours will keep it thinking 6" off is the best these rifles can do because the dealer tells him how few returns he gets, and the factory not only keeps churning out more booboos, but is thoroughly convinced anyone who would return one is crazy.

Yeah, I get it that you are smart and handy enough to figure it out, you can always bend the barrel later if you want, it's fun learning whats wrong, and the twang will go away when you put a kit in it, but what about the next poor uninitiated sap that gets one just like yours and has to try and get some wretched company like Umarex to help resolve issues they would rather insist don't exist?  Yeah, I know, not a Umarex product, get a prescription for Prozac, get a life...

I just cant help but feel "rage against the light", as quality and demanding to get what you paid for seem to be obsoleted values that seem destined to die with my generation 

My apologies to the group, I'm sure reading me is a waste of time

You go Steve.  I paid $700 for my rifle, and if their was the slightest of defects, it was going back, and again ... until they get it right.  Maybe some people are broke, and can't pay shipping, or work fees if it is not a warranty issue ... but those people don't buy good rifles.  It amazes me how much time people spend posting to this board about an issue .... in the same amount of time, you could have had it resolved 3 or 4 times.  Solve your issue, them post about it.  Not gonna rant.

Pappy

[roadfix]

Thanks guys, I understand what you're saying, but I don't like to send anything back until I'm absolutely certain the product is "defective".   And the only way for me to find this out is by posting the issue at hand and reviewing all your expert comments and advice.    And besides, I love to tinker so I don't mind spending extra time trying to analyze if a problem exists. 

[roadfix]

UPDATE!  Barrel aligned with receiver (or scope rails??) .... or whatever..!

I put together a simple barrel bending jig and tweaked the elevation and windage.  I brought the POI to within an inch of POA at 25 yards using FTT pellets.  Three centered scopes and two different scope mounts confirmed this.

It didn't take much pressure (my upper body weight) on the stock (at the trigger area) to make the incremental adjustments.  I spent about 15 minutes tops to tweak the barrel.

Here's the pic of the barrel bending jig.  Rifle ready for elevation correction.  I turned the rifle on its side to make the windage correction.

[k-man]

Wow dude! You the biggest balls ive seen, doing that to ta $700 dollar rifle. Good luck , i hope ut works for you

[roadfix]

Wow dude! You the biggest balls ive seen, doing that to ta $700 dollar rifle. Good luck , i hope ut works for you

Weii, so far so good.   
I let the rifle rest overnight, shot a few more rounds this morning to make sure it held its tweaked position before zeroing the scope.

Seems like some folks here routinely tweak their break barrels so I figured why not with a fixed barrel?   My only concern was the somewhat short length of the barrel on this rifle.   But it turned out to be an easy task.
The jig only cost me $3 for the U-bolt.   The 2x8 piece of lumber I had laying around created a strong platform.    I'll definitely be saving this jig for future barrel tweaks.

[robertr]

Good job on the jig, be carefull , I notice you have a large knot right at the pressure point.

[roadfix]

Good job on the jig, be carefull , I notice you have a large knot right at the pressure point.

Thanks, and good call.  I'll move the U-bolt to the other end.   At the same time I'll use a set of threaded rods to extend the length of the U-bolt so it'll sit higher on the jig to keep the rifle parallel.

[Motorhead]

Changing position of muzzle ALSO will change position of cocking handle upon lock up.
Could make breech tighter or looser which could be good or bad 

[roadfix]

Changing position of muzzle ALSO will change position of cocking handle upon lock up.
Could make breech tighter or looser which could be good or bad 

The physical change of position of the muzzle was so tiny that there were practically no change in the way (or feel) the under-lever released and locked up.

[Motorhead]

Changing position of muzzle ALSO will change position of cocking handle upon lock up.
Could make breech tighter or looser which could be good or bad 

The physical change of position of the muzzle was so tiny that there were practically no change in the way (or feel) the under-lever released and locked up.

Thats a GOOD thing