Regulated My S510 Carbine

[Jking]

I left it over night and it looks lke no air loss. I shot a string or atleast I tried i got 13 shots before falling off the reg! At first I thought man I must have a leak so I filled it back up and got the same thing. So the 132 bar set point is way to low for the hammer energy I have. I didnt think it would be that bad but evidently its wasting a ton of air. It is shooting an average of 874 fps with 18 gr. JSB and its noisy compaired to normal so that tells me its pushing allot of air. The lighter spring I have is to light so im gonna reduce hammer weight then play with spring tension if needed.

You might crank up the regulator a little and make it harder for the hammer to open the valve, maybe just give the valve a little sip of air. That seemed to be the ticket on my Lane, but I had also lightened my hammer. I'll gladly send you some springs if you want them. I'll never use them all anyway.
Jimmy

[LDP]

Thanks for the offer Jimmy on the springs but I cut mine to see how it would go. My regulator says its set at 132 - 135 but when I fill my gauge says it is at 140 bar.

Original setup without regulator
 Hammer 49.5 grams
 Standard hammer spring
 Fill to 200 bar
 transfer port set on half
 I got 23 shots but I always shot two mags for 20 shots
 810 fps AVG with an ES of 25 fps for 20 shots and 28 fps for 23 shots.

So here is my current set up
Regulator set between 132 - 140 bar depending which source you believe.
 Hammer cut down to 36 grams.
 Hammer spring cut about 1 1/4 coils but I added a shim that took it back to the same as 1 coil being cut off.
 I fill to 200 bar so 2900 psi
 Transfer port fully open

 Here is the shot string


 I was hoping to gain more shots but I am not over filling mine either. Set where its at now I did gain about 4 shots total at a higher avg fps with almost half the ES it had unregulated. I gained 7 shots if you go off the 20 shot string I used before.

 I dont know why the first shot was the lowest one but if you remove that one and the last shot the Es is 14 fps. I wonder if the reg is creeping when I refill and thats what caused the slow first shot. I will shoot it some more and see how it settles in. I still dont know if I want to keep it set here or drop it closer to the 810 fps I was shooting at with out the reg. After I did the second cut on the hammer spring I was getting 795 fps for an average and got well over 40 shots with an ES of about 20 or 24 fps. The problem was the reg was set to high for the hammer pre load and when it fell of the reg and the pressure dropped a little I got a sharp climb in the velocity resulting in the longer shots but also the larger ES. So if I go lower I will try to just slowly thin my shim until I hit an average of 820 - 825 fps. I think that will give me a very small climb when it drops off the reg and keep my ES the same as it is now but a longer string.

[Jking]

Just shot a string this evening to confirm that the Huma regulator is not changing any. I'm happy to report this string is basically identical to the first string I shot. I'm calling it 35 shots on the regulator with an ES, easily under 1%. 17 of the 35 were .5% and under . I had a total of 40 shots with a 220bar fill. It's a leaver "B".
jimmy

[LDP]

Looks good Jimmy.

[Smoketown]

With permission from Mr. King … (Yes, I asked.)   

S510 Recap

Air Arms .177 cal. S510 Extra FAC Super-lite full size rifle.

I had been getting around 30 declining shots in the ‘sweet spot’ firing from 150 to 110 bar according to the gauge on the rifle.

Robert Lane Lancet Regulator (set at 135 bar) with new (RL) valve spring in the reservoir with no other changes.

The stock striker/hammer provided ~ 50 shots from a 200 bar fill.

With a 34 gram lightened striker I’m averaging 70 good shots … When I don’t get wonky chronograph readings.
(Deleted 5 shots from String 5 - 2 @ 3XX and 3 @ 57XX fps! Yes ... 5000+ fps! --- WONKY !!!)

The next step is to clean the barrel and re-shoot a string or two paying close attention to the rifles pressure gauge.

I'm also tempted to see how much more I can lighten the striker before I have to ADD weight. 

[Jking]

Nice Jim, btw, my all time favorite name , Someone PM'd me a short while back and was asking how many shots a 177 would get and my best guess was 70-75. I was wondering if pellet weight might have something to do with the sensitivity of varying velocities. So taking some weight off your hammer really helped. Did you just remove the otter edge of the hammer to get down to 34 grams or did you remove some other material?
JK

[Smoketown]

~~ So taking some weight off your hammer really helped. Did you just remove the outer edge of the hammer to get down to 34 grams or did you remove some other material?
JK

Jimmy,

I'm glad you asked! (Just the outer edge.)

OK, so off the deep end I go …

I’m sure that we have all seen the hammer photos that have been posted.  (I shamelessly copied and posted them below ...)

I’m also pretty sure that most of us have turned the ‘fat end’ of our hammers to the ‘impact ring’ diameter at the face of the hammer to reduce the weight.
(Mine currently weighs in at 34 grams or 31% less than stock.)

It appears that after turning our hammers we are then clipping coils.

That tells me that we’re still over weight, have slow lock times and quite possibly, a bit of hammer bounce. (Geritol commercial starts in 3, 2, 1 …)

The question then becomes how light is too light or, should it be “Lite”?
Scott, Bob?

With the small end to the left, looking at the STOCK hammer and spring profiles, from my scribbled notes I have the following:

1.)   The striker spring OD at .590 dia. ***
2.)    The spring guide at .465” dia.
3.)   The ‘fat end’ at .825” dia. ***
4.)   The ‘impact ring’ on the face of the hammer .610” dia.
       (My ‘as turned’ diameter.)

Looking at the hammer  ‘as turned’ the resultant large .825” dia. *** ring/doughnut in the middle has only two functions.
1.)   The top where the allen screw goes so you can cock the hammer.
2.)   The bottom that engages the top sear to hold it in the cocked position.

Now, think of a Tylenol Caplet or any other capsule shaped item.

To easily remove even more weight we can ‘slab-side’ our hammers. (Ribbonstone's link below the photos.)

I would not hesitate to go as far as to match the ‘striker spring OD’ for the new width of the hammer.

Nothing too technical here, a grinder, belt sander or if you have access to one, a mill would do it. (The timid can do it a little bit at a time.)


Another option for those with access to a lathe, would be to measure back approximately .200” from the hammer face and reduce the ‘as turned’ end to the diameter of the ‘spring OD’ as far back as to the face of the ‘doughnut’.
(A drill press and a 4” angle grinder comes to mind for us “Red Green” types.)   

The advantage of the above turning method  would be if the hammer happened to be too light, one could wrap and soft solder a couple of turns of heavy 16 - 10 gauge copper wire in the groove.

For the greatest weight reduction the most adventurous can do both!

In the next few weeks as work allows, I’ll be:
a)   Shooting my ‘as turned’ 34 gram hammer tune over the screens. (Done!)
b)   Turning a groove .200” back from the hammer face and shooting it.
c)   Slab-siding the hammer and shooting some more!
d)   Perhaps, soldering some copper wire to the hammer.   
e)   Doing better documentation of the above steps …. 


Cheers,
Smoketown


In the photos, imagine the cam shaped area being the full diameter as the one on the left - That's the "doughnut"/ring I'm talking about.






Ribbonstone has a great photo of a "slab sided hammer" posted here - http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=97673.msg913350#msg913350

*** Added Correct Dimensions ... .825 and .590 inches.

[LDP]

I am also curiose to hear what the experts would say about how light is to light for the hammer in this particular rifle. I got my hammer weight down to 36g and it was shooting the same velocity when using the stock hammer. I cut 1 coil off to get the velocity to start to drop.

[Motorhead]

I am also curiose to hear what the experts would say about how light is to light for the hammer in this particular rifle. I got my hammer weight down to 36g and it was shooting the same velocity when using the stock hammer. I cut 1 coil off to get the velocity to start to drop.

Trimmed up hammer show above is honestly @ light as you can get them down too. For most they work great !!
Due to design limits see "How low will it go" is not really possible.

Based on my extensive LW hammer work with regulated marauders which operate give or take very similar pressure, there optimum weight was 26-28 grams .. so 1t 34 your almost there leaving me feel close enough.
My personal AA s410 in .22 with reg has a LW hammer as above & works quite well.

[LDP]

Thanks Scott for the extra info. I believe I can get my hammer down to 34g or maybe even 32g. I still have just a little I can remove from the diameter to match the diameter where the valve is contacted. I also never touched the other side of the large ring where there is a little material that can be trimmed off. I will take pics when I pull the hammer again to trim a little more and polish the hammer guide. I feel like I am very close so I might just polish the guide first to see how it does before removing more material.

[Jking]

You guys are killin me. I've got a "lever B" in my book but ya'll got to keep on tempting me to tweak (not twerk) a little more. My current hammer weighs 40.12 grams so now I'm thinking "what if" I take more weight off.. Now, after I reduce the hammer a little more I'll more than likely loose a little velocity but gain some shots, probably a good chance anyway I'm thinking. I've got more of the same springs that I trimmed a coil off of to get to where I'm at now, again the "lever B" state. So maybe if I lose too much velocity I can gain some of it back with a full spring and still have an increase in shot count. Sounds good anyway..
jk

[abslayer]

You guys are killin me. I've got a "lever B" in my book but ya'll got to keep on tempting me to tweak (not twerk) a little more. My current hammer weighs 40.12 grams so now I'm thinking "what if" I take more weight off.. Now, after I reduce the hammer a little more I'll more than likely loose a little velocity but gain some shots, probably a good chance anyway I'm thinking. I've got more of the same springs that I trimmed a coil off of to get to where I'm at now, again the "lever B" state. So maybe if I lose too much velocity I can gain some of it back with a full spring and still have an increase in shot count. Sounds good anyway..
jk

Careful  Jim LMBO

[LDP]

Jimmy you have a very good string and I personally would not touch it if it was mine. I think I am getting about the best shot count I can expect from my carbine using a standard fill and getting 30 shots so I only want to remove the two shots that ruined my single digit ES. So hopefully polishing the hammer guide will do that. If that gives me the completely flat string I might shave that last little bit off the hammer but I will decide after polishing and seeing how it performs.

[Jking]

I think your right Leland, It's shooting dang good too. Going from a 22-23 shots at 3% ES to 35 shots under 1% and throw in another 5 good shots on the end is a tremendous improvement. I walked by my gun cabinet with the AA in it last night and thought to my myself.. *(&^ no I ain't jacking with it anymore.
Jimmy

[LDP]

Well I found an issue with my regulator but its more my fault After I installed the reg I let it sit over night to check for leaks and it looked good but I made a mistake. I didnt think about the gauge showing just the reg set point and I filled it to 200 bar. So with a slow leak it takes longer than one day to drop below the set point. Well last week after shooting one mag from a full fill my S510 sat for a week while I worked on my TX200 and on last Friday when I looked at my S510 gauge it was at 130 bar So it has a very slow leak. Lesson learned is only fill to the set point or a little less to do a leak test

 I had the gauge off during the install so there are 3 possible leak points #1 is the gauge o-rings. #2 is the o-ring that seals the tube to the valve body and #3 is the regulator o-rings. My bet is that its the reg o-rings but I need to be certain. Does any one know the size of the Huma reg o-rings? Or the size of the threads on the back of the reg for pulling it out?

[Jking]

Well I found an issue with my regulator but its more my fault After I installed the reg I let it sit over night to check for leaks and it looked good but I made a mistake. I didnt think about the gauge showing just the reg set point and I filled it to 200 bar. So with a slow leak it takes longer than one day to drop below the set point. Well last week after shooting one mag from a full fill my S510 sat for a week while I worked on my TX200 and on last Friday when I looked at my S510 gauge it was at 130 bar So it has a very slow leak. Lesson learned is only fill to the set point or a little less to do a leak test

 I had the gauge off during the install so there are 3 possible leak points #1 is the gauge o-rings. #2 is the o-ring that seals the tube to the valve body and #3 is the regulator o-rings. My bet is that its the reg o-rings but I need to be certain. Does any one know the size of the Huma reg o-rings? Or the size of the threads on the back of the reg for pulling it out?

Hey Leland, so your gauge was showing higher before the wait time, 140 or 150? I guess you could check your weep hole on the air tube with some really soapy water and at least know if its one of the rugulators O-rings. If not there maybe the valve is leaking by a little. I had a leak on the fill fitting when I first got my gun but it was obvious as the O-ring gave up and blew out.
You can rule out the valve leaking by soaping the TP hole.
As far as the Oring size, sorry I'm not sure but I bet Scott will chime in with the right answer on that and the thread size on the regulator. I think I used one of the breech screws, I'm thinking it was the one that is bigger than the other three.
jimmy

[LDP]

My gauge only shows the reg set point but because I filled to 200 bar the gauge will only drop from a leak when you get below the set point. So the leak was hidden until the rifle set long enough to leak down to the set point.

 Good news is that I found the leak and it is the regulator o-ring that seals off the vent hole. Should be an easy enough fix once I know I have the proper o-rings to replace them. I am going to double check my vent hole for a bur and the tube threads so it doesnt happen again when I reinstall the reg.

[Motorhead]

Some times air tubes I.D. has marks from being "Drawn" and requires honing to smooth the surface where Regs o-rings contact tube 

[robertr]

 I think Matt is his name, anyhow here is a video of him istalling a Lane reg. in his S510, he discusses the part that Motorhead mentioned about smoothing the inside of the airtube. Would think it would be the same for the Huma.

[LDP]

Yep I looked inside the tube and checked it and it all seemed really smooth but obviously something was there to nick the o-ring. I wont take the short cut this time and hone it out real good and make sure I dont have to mess with it again lol.

 So now I have to figure out if I am going to change anything while its apart. I could put in a stronger valve spring but I dont know if I have one that will be good enough without adding to much tension. I dont want to put one in to find out it has to much tension and I dont know how much room you have in that setting before it causes issues.

 I was also thinking about adjusting the set point slightly. According to the reg it should be no more than 135 bar and looks to be closer to 132 bar based on the scale that Huma put on the reg. But when I shoot till it drops off the reg my tanks gauge moves up until 140 bar and stops so I figured its actually set at 140 bar but maybe thats not a real accurate way to see the true set point.

 If it is set to 140 bar I dont need to touch it but if it is actually 132 - 135 bar I would bump it to about 140 - 145 bar. Jimmy do you recall where your reg was set when you got it? Was it set like mine and you adjusted it to 140 bar on the scale?

Update: Here is a pic of my reg setting