Caliber Question

[Gary]

I started a thread earlier about the "itch" and would like some recommendations as to caliber. There are a bunch to chose from and I can not make up my mind. Will not be used for hunting deer sized game, ground hog, coyote, and maybe a small hog. Probable use: Impress friends and play with in a safe manner more than anything else.
Gary

[yote300wsm]

I have heard of .277 and .308 guns. Can't rem just where. It was some link on the PCP gate. I think that a 80-90g .243 could fun.

[tworr]

In your first post you stated "9mm,.357 or .45 cal." so I will use that info.


Things to consider....If you are hunting in Ohio which your info has listed. Also double check your states regulations in case I didn't pull the correct info.

Deer
*** A deer hunter cannot hunt with any rifle other than a muzzleloading rifle .38 caliber or larger ***
(You may need to get clarification, but if you had a 45 caliber airgun and had the muzzleloading adapter would you be able to hunt with it? If yes then you could hunt deer, coyote and hogs with a muzzleloader airgun during deer season.)

Coyote and Boar -
(See Hunting Regulations if hunting during any of the deer seasons)
Rifle – any caliber
Shotgun – 10 gauge or smaller
Airgun

Groundhog - Closed for Deer Gun Season Only
Rifle – any caliber
Shotgun – 10 gauge or smaller
Airgun


My state has verbally stated (after showing them my big hog) that airguns can be used for hunting as long as they meet the caliber requirements for the season.

"Coyote may be taken with archery equipment, firearms no larger than .30 caliber or shotguns with shot no larger than T shot. Coyotes may be taken during any open deer, bear or squirrel season with hunting equipment legal for that season. "

Since I have a .458, that means that I can not hunt coyotes with it outside of deer season.




If you are 100% positive that you are not hunting deer then the .45 may not be for you, but I personally would still want the higher foot pounds for small hogs and coyotes. The smaller calibers will make lower foot pounds of energy, but have a longer range, so that is something to consider. With your states regulations and the caliber restrictions for deer, I would ask about getting permission to use a .45 muzzleloader airgun for your game. If they say no then one of the other calibers would be your choice and couldn't be used during deer season.


Take a look at the SamYang 909s. It might be just what you are looking for and will be even better when tuned. Leroy says people are reporting up to 367fpe out of their tuned 909s.
http://www.bgmfairguns.com/otherproducts.html

The Corsair comes in .308 and .357 caliber. Would be good for what you are looking at doing.
http://www.adventuresinairguns.com/big-game-c-3.html?osCsid=a89ed71fd636f6dc1e34c74e27578113

Jack Haley makes a bigbore 32cal(80 to 225 FPE) as well as the .457 and .58 caliber.
http://www.southernairgunconversion.com/southernairguns_010.htm
He also has 32 and 308 cal. QB conversions from 75 to 130+fpe.
http://www.southernairgunconversion.com/southernairguns_005.htm

Dennis Quackenbush makes a .308 as well as the .458 and .50caliber.
http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/308_exile.html




Edit: When I say muzzleloading adapter, I am able to remove my bolt handle and lock it down with a short bolt that prevents the breech bolt from being operated. I then have a small crown protector that allows me to muzzle load a bullet in the barrel and ram rod it in.

[lloyd-ss]

Tworr,
Doing a temporary mod to convert your breech loader into a muzzle loader is interesting.  How was your comfort level ramming the bullet down the barrel?  Even hooking an air line up to the front end of a PCP makes me a little twitchy.

But that does sound like a straightforward way to meet the regulations.  I don't think you said which caliber you did that with.  How tight was the bullet fit, or how hard was it to force the bullet down from the muzzle?
Thanks,
Lloyd

[tworr]

How was your comfort level ramming the bullet down the barrel?  Even hooking an air line up to the front end of a PCP makes me a little twitchy.

But that does sound like a straightforward way to meet the regulations.  I don't think you said which caliber you did that with.  How tight was the bullet fit, or how hard was it to force the bullet down from the muzzle?
Thanks,
Lloyd

My gun is a .458 Quackenbush. It wasn't bad at all, BUT I used caution, kept my face away from the barrel and didn't beat on the gun. The adapter holds the bullet straight and I used the bullet "starter" get it in the barrel. Once started with a little force, the rod pushed it right in. There wasn't any "ramming" involved.

I had visions of people using hard cast lead, and after trying to beat it in, a rod would be sticking out of someones hand. So I would recommend that people use the correct bullet when muzzleloading an airgun.

[Gary]

I am in Ohio and the info is on the spot. After going back and rereading my post it wasn't clear . I don't want to hunt deer at this time so will probably go with either a .308 or the 9mm. I have not contacted Div. of Wildlife about using an airgun for deer, but might in the future since I drive right by their division H.Q. If I get one it will be used more as a plinker than a hunter. I am not anti hunting but as I age the thrill of hunting isn't as great as it was when I was younger. I do manage to take a squirrel and a rabbit or two a year.
Gary

[yote300wsm]

Take a tip from the muzzle-loaders; The thin skirt "Minne" style bullet is designed to load easily and upon firing, the skirt expands to engage the rifling.

P.S. Ohio among other states have WAAAAY too many regs !!!I'll stay up here in MN or maybe move to Wyoming. JMO.

[lloyd-ss]

How was your comfort level ramming the bullet down the barrel?

My gun is a .458 Quackenbush. It wasn't bad at all, BUT I used caution, kept my face away from the barrel and didn't beat on the gun. The adapter holds the bullet straight and I used the bullet "starter" get it in the barrel. Once started with a little force, the rod pushed it right in. There wasn't any "ramming" involved.

I had visions of people using hard cast lead, and after trying to beat it in, a rod would be sticking out of someones hand. So I would recommend that people use the correct bullet when muzzleloading an airgun.

Tworr,
Thanks for the feedback.  So the height and width of the rifling lands in your Q .458 must be relatively mild compared to what's in a  powder burner barrel?  I haven't looked at the rifling in a Q barrel, so I am only guessing.  Have you looked at a PB next to your Quackenbush?  Most of the barrels I am using are for PBs, so I generally have to push the bullets through a sizing die to get them to work well, and consistently.

Take a tip from the muzzle-loaders; The thin skirt "Minne" style bullet is designed to load easily and upon firing, the skirt expands to engage the rifling.

yote300,
So you are saying a skirt a little like a pellet skirt?  And the front end of the bullet is a little on the small size?  I will have to look into that. makes good sense.  Seems like bullet fit is so critical to getting optimum big bore performance.  I've especially have trouble with round balls.  They shoot fine at lower pressures, but then when I really crank it up,  I use more air but the velocity drops.  I am pretty sure it is blow-by.  Probably just a matter of needing a round ball another .001 or so bigger in dia.

Lloyd

[DaveShooter]

I am in Ohio and the info is on the spot. After going back and rereading my post it wasn't clear . I don't want to hunt deer at this time so will probably go with either a .308 or the 9mm. I have not contacted Div. of Wildlife about using an airgun for deer, but might in the future since I drive right by their division H.Q. If I get one it will be used more as a plinker than a hunter. I am not anti hunting but as I age the thrill of hunting isn't as great as it was when I was younger. I do manage to take a squirrel and a rabbit or two a year.
Gary

Hi Gary,
                        I am over here in Xenia, Ohio. Not to far from District 5 wildlife. I went out to the Greene County Fish and Game Club for the wildlfe open-house last year, to put a request in for a big-boar deer airgun season, Talked with a fellow named Haines. Haines told me that Ohio has enough ways to hunt or harvest whitetale deer. So that fell upon deaf ears.Now you can hunt coyotes, wild pigs, and ground hogs with big boar air and small game as well as with air power weapons. I guess we just need to keep hounding the folks at state level of fish and game to get a deer airgun seaso. I mean they the state could combine it with blk-powder or muzzloader seasons.
Too much trouble for them at state level I guess......

[yote300wsm]

The "Minne" dates from the Civil War. The idea was for the bullet to be easy to load in a moderately fouled bbl. Upon firing, the thin hollow base would expand to grab the rifling and also scrape out most of the crud from the previous shot.

I think that is why JSB's work so well in so many guns. Good thin uniform skirts.
(I like my ladies to wear thin skirts).

[tworr]

So the height and width of the rifling lands in your Q .458 must be relatively mild compared to what's in a  powder burner barrel?  

I generally have to push the bullets through a sizing die to get them to work well, and consistently.

Seems like bullet fit is so critical to getting optimum big bore performance.

Lloyd

I think you've got it!!

As you know, sizing, lead softness, bullet design and shape all contribute to Optimum Performance and accuracy in our bigbore airguns!! We don't produce the speeds of a PB'ers so you can't expect optimum performance from PB barrels and/or hard cast lead.

I'm not saying you can't shoot hard cast or use PB barrels, but that our pressures are different so our needs are too.

I'm using bullets cast by BHD. They are not pure lead, but they are far from being hard cast and are more forgiving to the differences in barrels from maker to maker.

[melloroadman]

You might want to research the barrel type's on the J.H , Corsair, and the  XP . And some of us are at P.B speeds . We do not have the chamber pressure that P.B do .But that is not what causes shearing of the bullet or leading of the barrel .There is a lot of info on these subjects . In a thread that I will include here . Some of my rifles like pure lead and some like it as high as a 22 bhn . Many think all BB need pure and that all small bore pellets are pure lead but they are not . What ever your rifle groups the best at is what you need to use . It is just that simple . Marvin
http://www.lasc.us/

[tworr]

You might want to research the barrel  types  on the J.H , Corsair, and the  XP . And some of us are at P.B speeds . Marvin

Lots of airguns use PB barrels, but there is a HUGE difference in speeds between the two using the same bullet weights.
I'll use this pages information to show the difference.
http://pages.sssnet.com/go2erie/muzzle.htm

I'm talking about the difference in air vs powder and what powder is capable and why. If we want to consider 4500psi "magnum" air power then lets look at what powder and magnum loads can do. This isn't just what the 45colt long does, we want to look at muzzle loaders for example and see what powder speeds are really at.


Check out the "Chart #2. Random 50 cal. ballistics sorted by foot pounds of Energy."
1300 to 1900fps ranges for 180 to 490 grains.

Big difference to an airgun with

480 grain hollow point @ 4500psi--- 866 fps and that at 4500psi!!

225 grain @3000 psi--- 959 fps

more info.....


BULLET 45 caliber, 285 grain HP maxistyle, Black Powder* = 85 grains FFg
Ft. per Sec.   1550
BULLET 45 caliber, 325 grain RN maxistyle, Black Powder* = 85 grains FFg
Ft. per Sec.   1500
BULLET 58 caliber, 525 grain HP maxistyle, Black Powder* = 90 grains FFg
Ft. per Sec.   1275   




I'll add this to the difference in air and powder as well since it's not being discussed.
 
What is really going on in a powder burner that air pressure alone isn't doing?
 
HEAT

The fire and explosion of the powder is creating orbutration of the bullet, Melting and swelling the bullet from the pressures to fill the grooves and a much higher speeds as the above info shows. 

We can pick and choose the info that we want to show our points. I just randomly googled and found the first chart that showed PB speeds, but the only point that I'm showing here is that the difference in air and powder and what they are capable.

We are using air today in most cases are using hand pumps and CF tanks that have a limit to the pressure they provide/store. In a few years maybe the 5500 scba packs will be on the market and will be available to us.
Then it would be reasonable and convenient for us to use 4500psi or higher in our guns.

[Butcher45]

      

     For critters under 50lbs like you are saying I'd go for a .357 Corsair or Careers 201/202's depending on if you have CF tanks, or just a pump.  Corsair if you use tanks, Career Fire 202 (get it tuned)  if you use a pump.  Career calls the Fire 202 a 9mm, but I think they are actually .357 as that diameter is often reported to shoot best for many Fire 202 owner's..  Lots of boolits/molds available for .357 as well (including the 9mm/.357 Lyman Devastator).

     Tworr, you are looking at the wrong PB loads if you are wanting to see the similarities in velocity and boolit hardnes between PB's and bigbore airguns.  Forget about the high-power powder burner rifles, and look to the non-magnum pistol cartridges.  Forget the +P loads, and look to the standard loadings, and common handloads made-up for handgun hunting.  There are PLENTY of powder-burners that are producing the EXACT same fpe levels, and velocites that our .308/.32, .357, and .45 air rifles are producing.  Check out common loads/handloads for the 32-20, .32H@R Mag, 38Spl, .45ACP/Colt, etc.  
     Other than the very heavy rifle 350-400+grain boolit ballistics some bigbore air rifle shooters like to use (I'll stick with 255-330grains in .45 for big game), almost all bigbore airguns are operating with pistol boolit external ballistics.  Your .457DAQ shooting the 265grain WFN at around 900-950-fps is exactly what the original .45Colt does (you are actually on the hot side for a standard .45Colt load at 950+fps).

     As far as softer/harder boolit alloy goes, sometimes the softer alloy works best, and sometimes the harder alloy works best.  In some rifles both work great.

     The definition of "Hard Cast" is often very vague, and differs from person to person, caster to caster, and and seller to seller.  I have had great luck in my tuned 909 with anything from practically pure lead to BHN9 or so.  Alloy that is mixed half clip-on WW and half pure lead ratio (clip-on wheel weigh is about BHN12, stick-on ww is nearly pure lead and typically BHN6) comes out to about BHN8.5-BHN9 in hardness, and often shoots very well in my 909 in regards to velocity, accuracy, and especially air efficiency (more shots using the same amount of air).  Even when shooting .457-.458 diameter slugs.  The BHN9 or so alloy is a common alloy used by .45ACP, and .38Spl shooters using loads with identical ballistics to tuned 909/909S, and Fire 201/202 rifles.  This alloy is not considered to be "hard cast" by the majority of casters I know, and is generally considered to be quite soft.

     My tuned 909 (4 shots at 275-280fpe per fill) has consistently grouped under an inch c-to-c at 50 yards with anywhere from pure, to about BHN9-10 alloy.

     From what I'm seeing lately, the smaller .308 and .357 bigbores on the market appear to be tolerating a much harder lead for the fpe level of the rifle (a 250fpe .308 liking harder stuff than a 250fpe .45).  BHN12-15 is often reported to work great in .308/.32 air rifles, and is readily available all over the machine-cast boolit market in batches of 250-5000+ for very, very cheap.

     I'm thinking one of the key factors to keep in mind when differentiating between firearms pressures, and airgun pressures propelling a slug to the same speed with the use of 3000psi vs. 16000+psi, is the impulse of the thrust being applied.

     If you go with a tuned SamYang 909, and aren't after bigger stuff like deer/large hogs, the power-tuned 2tube 909 version of the SamYang has plenty of power for deer/headshot large hogs while getting 4-5 shots per fill before any sort of hold-over is necessary.  The tuned 2tube 909 is a much better rifle for plinking/hunting multiple critters away from the truck/air source than the 909S, which would be the better choice for a dedicated big game airgun.

[JonnyReb]

 Incredible info from you guys, all the result of many many hours studying, experimenting and in the field. I'm so glad you are here to contribute info like this, it saves new and experienced shooters alike a lot of time searching for what you've compiled. Butcher, thanks for clarifying many things in your posts, in a way all can easily understand and tworr, your right, there is a huge difference between the two bullet speeds, Air versus BP, what everyone see's the same is that trying different bullets and lead hardness is imperative to figuring out what works best in the individual gun. Thanks for everyone contributing such awesome info,  Keep it coming,  J

[melloroadman]

If it helps take a look at what I have posted on my JH32 and my .308 Corsair under samples . The numbers are right in line with LRRF bullets but the Taylor KO for the 308 is 2 were as with the 22, LRRF it is a 1 . Not real high numbers . But it tells you that what can be done as far as hunting goes for a 22LRRF can be done better with these rifles . Even at the low fill rates and light bullet weights I am running . FPE are still 113 . But at these speeds 5 bhn lead shears and causes accuracy problems . But I use a lead that is about the same bhn as a LRRF and have the accuracy I need . As a matter of fact I pulled over 200 pounds of lead out of a indoor RF range .That I will use for casting my own bullets . Marvin

[Gary]

Great info guys. I need to give this some more study.
Gary

[DaveShooter]

Take a tip from the muzzle-loaders; The thin skirt "Minne" style bullet is designed to load easily and upon firing, the skirt expands to engage the rifling.

P.S. Ohio among other states have WAAAAY too many regs !!!I'll stay up here in MN or maybe move to Wyoming. JMO.

I would love to move out of this state . Too many family friends I guess that hold me back. So I'll have to dream of better places to hunt.....-for now......

[lloyd-ss]

Guys,
Thanks for taking the time to write all this up and share what you know.  Seems like in general, softer lead and narrow lands are most people's feelings?  I only have "real" airgun barrels in a couple of calibers, and the others are PB barrels and barrel liners. The good 9mm airgun barrel I have has 6 grooves, lands are .039 wide and grooves are .144.  That's a 3.7 to one ratio.  The PB barrel in 9mm has lands of .068 and grooves of .115, ratio about 1.7  to one.  Some of the bigger PB calibers are as much .105 land to .135 groove (1.3 to 1).  Makes sense that the skinnier lands would be easier to engrave with the lower pressures.  Depths are all in the neighborhood of .003-.004.  Have any of you slugged your barrels to see what they are?  I am curious.
Thanks,
Lloyd

[melloroadman]

Yes I have sluged several barrels . And there is no real set pattern in some of this . DAQ list his AR barrels as wide land narrow groove barrels . Most of the issues are fps. proper fit, psi , smoothness of bore , length of barrel , and bhn . As well as lube . That is why I say use what works well for you . And some are happy with a 4 inch group at 50 yards for hunting larger game and some want moa at 65 yards for target . I also want to state that the 4 rifles that I have tuned to be right under 1100 fps will tolerate softer lead if I drop the fps down to 800-850 fps . At that speed the soft lead is able to compress fast enought not to shear . But that is the limit I have found and what I have found stated on casting forums as well . Marvin