picks of HW97 , hawk sidewinder tactical problem (I think I found the problem)

[rdeady]

When I purchased the rifle the fellow had the synthetic stock also, so I figured I would get them both.   I actually like the thumb hole stock a bit more but the wood is sure nice looking!    I received the rifle a few months ago (cant remember exactly when) and I used about 8 tins of pellets so far.  I shoot almost every day in my back yard.   I ll post a target to show how I usually shoot but I am having a problem!!!!!   My POI is always shifting.  I can shot  20 shots great all in a dime or close at 30 yards then they seem to drift up or down or wherever and i have to center again.  It  is getting to be a pain.  Each time i tighten everything and think i have it licked ill get some great shots and then there it goes drifting up and away again or down.  FRUSTRATING    Russ

[rdeady]

the wood stock

[rdeady]

my range is 30 yards shooting across the back yard. I was shooting 20 out my back door but really enjoy stretching it to 30. The shooting bench is just a wooden saw horse my neighbor was throwing away which i modified a bit. Seems to work great.   Any thoughts or suggestions on what I can do to get the POI to stop moving please chime in!!!


Thanks   russ

[grauhanen]

There are a number of factors that come into play in obtaining a consistent POI.  Among the most important is to be shooting the most accurate pellet, the one that groups the tightest at your distance, 30 yards.  It is also imperative that you use a very consistent hold with your rifle.  Some rifles are very responsive to changes in the way they are held, how hard your grip is, how hard you pull it to your shoulder, your cheek weld.  A rifle must be held exactly the same way each and every time, and it must be rested the same way each and every time.  Part of the challenge of shooting is to find out precisely how a rifle likes to be held (two rifles of the same model can be different) and how it likes to be on the rest.  You must also make sure that your trigger pull is very consistent, that it does not vary at all from shot to shot.  You must practice consistent breathing.  You must practice consistent follow through -- watch your pellet hit the target through the scope without moving any part of your body.

Others will add more suggestions.

[rdeady]

thanks grauhanen,   Trying to do all those things  Cant see the pellet hit though as the rifle (even though tuned) still has a bit of a kick.   The pellets im using dont seem to be the problem, they are accurate which leaves my mistakes or something else shifting causing the problem.   When i had a 3-9 mag scope and it had no stop pin it was getting hammed backwards and i had the same problem ( i blamed it on the scope mounts getting hammered backwards with every shot). But now this scope seems to be mounted rock solid so i dont think its moving. I just tightened all the stock screws which did move but after that the poi just shifted again and everything is very tight.    Need an expert to shoot this gun and tell me its fine then ill know its just me.   Joe Palone is about an hour away I may have to impose on him and get him to shoot some rounds through the gun and see if it moves when someone who knows what they are doing shoots it

[Pappy]

Russell, I was having similar issues with my TX.  I put it on a chrony, and checked out several pellets with 20 shot strings.  My power had been dropping.  I was now shooting a 10.5 ft/lb rifle.  As power dropped, the poi changed, of course, and I also needed to dial back in.  First thing to check is breech seals, then check piston O-rings etc..  I sent mine back to Motorhead for some R&R.

Pappy

[rdeady]

thanks Pappy  that sounds like something to look into!

[Pappy]

Turns out, that it was my seal.  I had a red Vortek parachute seal in there, that for some reason was producing resistance upon compression.  We don't know why, upon inspection it appears perfect, but certainly malfunctioning.  A new oversized seal was tooled to a perfect fit, and installed.  Now shooting 8.4g in the 870's range .... right where she belongs.

Pappy

[Motorhead]

Don't overlook the off chance your scope may be bad and moving around internally from the spring guns shot harmonics.

[rdeady]

Scott  thanks for chiming in.  I guess i have not considered it could be the scope since i have read so  many articles etc that say its the user or user setup(not tight etc,)90% of the time and the scope is rarely bad.   But that is another possibilty that i will need to look into.  I was easily shooting groups just as tight and tighter with my much less expensive leapers 3-9 scope that I know was constantly moving as it got hammered backwards a tiny bit with every shot. Several times i had to loosen and move the scope back up an inch or so and retighten . But Now i have the 6.5 -20 hawk tactical with no movement and POI seems to be moving more then before and 'im pretty sure with all the practice i'm getting that i am a better shot then before.   Heck I may have to order a cheap scope stop and mount the leapers  3-9 magnification scope back on to see if the POI remains consistant

[palonej]

Russel!!!!!
Sup bro??
Couple of questions:
1. Do you have your bag filled to capacity?? I found when I had the bag filled to the max I wasn't consistent. I fill mine to about 80% capacity. This allows the rifle to kind of settle in. Helped me a lot.
2. Is your hold tight at all?? My 97 likes to rest directly on the bag with the trigger guard in contact with the bag. I then get into my shooting position LIGHTLY!!!! Off hand under butt pad in a loose fist, cheek barely in contact with stock and shooting hand LOOSE!!! I put the butt pad about 1/8" from my shoulder so the rifle can slide into me.
This, naturally, in concert with breathing, follow thru etc.
3. Which pellets are you using??
4. Who tuned the rifle and with which kit???

[rdeady]

Hi Joe, 
  The bag i use does have some give to it and I have been using it with a piece of cloth on top to allow the gun to move,because with that synthetic stock ive been using the last few weeks it really grabs the bag hard (no slip for recoil) although it seems to shoot fine like that also!   
  My hold on the gun is very very soft ,cheek barely touches it and but doesnt touch anything. I believe im breathing and puling the trigger nicely =no jerking
  Im using several pellets still because even after 4-5000 rounds i cant figure out which works best  . I use jsb exact 8.4s  i use jsb heavies and AA heavies which seem to shoot identically to the jsb heavies.  H&N FTT 8.4   (all 4.52  i think).  If the gun or scope isnt moving all of these are in a dime size area  but to be honest it seems the heavier ones are favorites,its just so hard to tell when the POI starts moving after shooting so well.   
  Cant remember who tuned it or which kit ,but i think it was a vortec . The trigger is not as nice as any of yours and the screw keeps coming loose (real loose) if i even hand tighten it at all the trigger is to hard to pull so i leave it pretty loose.     I slow up from work in a week or two And it would be great if we could shoot and you could try the gun and see if its user error somehow or if the scope reticle is floating.    Here is a pick of three 5 shot groups that shows how POi was in bull  then it started drifting right!!!  the one on the right is the first string then i moved to the left to #2 and then #3 . you can see how the shots drift farther and farther right so i would now need to zero again(the dime is stuck there to show the target size. When i mounted this scope a couple months ago I zeroed it and it stayed zeroed for a while. Has not held a zero since.

[rdeady]

 the gun can shoot good groups but the groups are drifting around.    I even took the scope off and shimmed the rear so i could get the erector spring right in the center which is where it basically is on the verticle turret . So the spring should be tight
Thanks  Russell

[grauhanen]

If the scope is properly mounted and your shooting technique is consistent, then the next thing to try is a different scope, one that is known to hold zero.  If the problem continues, the issue is likely with shooting technique.  If the rifle is working as it should, it is unlikely to change POI arbitrarily.  Have you any chrony data on the rifle that might suggest something is amiss -- so to speak -- with how the rifle is working?

[Pappy]

If the scope is properly mounted and your shooting technique is consistent, then the next thing to try is a different scope, one that is known to hold zero.  If the problem continues, the issue is likely with shooting technique.  If the rifle is working as it should, it is unlikely to change POI arbitrarily.  Have you any chrony data on the rifle that might suggest something is amiss -- so to speak -- with how the rifle is working?

I particularly agree with getting chrony results.  This will indicate as stated above ... and it will help you with pellet decisions.  If you can find pellets, shooting 20 shot strings, that test out having low double digit Extreme Spread, or better .... that is a keeper.  More importantly, in my opinion, is the Standard Deviation result.  If you find pellets results ranging from 1 to 5 .... those are keepers, and will result in tight groups if the ES is low also.  If you find pellets with these 2 criteria, and your not shooting tight groups ... then you have technigue or scope issues.  BTW, the chrony will also indicate internal rifle issues if FPE is low, or varying too much.  We can really get into depth here, but those are some basics.

Pappy

[anuthabubba]

Might try degreasing those screws and applying some blue (non-permanent) thread locker. Let it dry over night.

[rdeady]

yroc    I can give loc tight a try also.  But at the moment the stock screws are so tight i was scared i was going to break something when i tightened them.
  Pappy   maybe i should buy a chrony ,seems like it would be good to have

[rdeady]

lock tighted everything and all the screws were very tight. POI still drifted.   So fed up I
took the hawk scope off and replaced it with my original leapers 3-9 magnification.  Made no effort to make it perfect and guess what.
 Zeroed it and shot 10 shots- two awesome 5 shot  groups at 30 yards before darkness hit.  Take a look at the pic. The top 2 groups were with
the 3-9 (can barely see the target at 30 yards compared to the 20 magnification sidewinder) but those two groups showed me that there must be something wrong
with the Hawk scope. Best two groups i've shot in a month.  That's what the gun shoots like when the reticle is not floating all over the place I guess.   
 Watch, Ill go out and shoot tomorrow  and find out I just got lucky with the 10 shots. I hope not!   hehe
Thanks to all those who tried to help me  I appreciate it !!!!
Russ