R9 loose lockup

[wimpanzee]

Been shooting the snot out of my R9 - but not without some complications. First the spring broke - but I got a pg2 kit installed easily.

Then yesterday, I was out plinking spinners, and all of a sudden I couldn't hit anything. I get some paper out today, to see what the groups are showing, and the best I can get is about 3" at 25 yards. At first I wasn't even hitting the 8.5"x11" paper, it was shooting waaaay low.

So I do a breech tissue test, and its blowing the paper about half the time. Then I checked the lockup, and indeed, it SOMETIMES gets a bit of wiggle to it!

Before I go tearing it down again, I was hoping someone could advise me on what likely culprits to look for. The wiggle is up and down - there is no side to side play.

If necessary, I'm happy to send it to a professional tuner if that is required. This is my sweet, sweet baby and needs some lovin' to get back on track.

[ptpalpha]

Hmmm....no side to side...up and down might indicate the spring holding the cocking wedge is bad.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/bn-locking-spring-r9?a=3799

If there's a problem with the locking wedge itself, PA can get those too but they're not in stock today:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/bn-locking-wedge-r9?a=3800

Hopefully there's just a simple adjustment you can do, but I'm not sure.  Here's something hopeful that I found with a search:
"What needs to be done is the ball needs to be pushed all the way in while you clear out some of the extra material (the detent has been overpeened) with a small bit in a dremel."

[nced]

Been shooting the snot out of my R9 - but not without some complications. First the spring broke - but I got a pg2 kit installed easily.

Then yesterday, I was out plinking spinners, and all of a sudden I couldn't hit anything. I get some paper out today, to see what the groups are showing, and the best I can get is about 3" at 25 yards. At first I wasn't even hitting the 8.5"x11" paper, it was shooting waaaay low.

So I do a breech tissue test, and its blowing the paper about half the time. Then I checked the lockup, and indeed, it SOMETIMES gets a bit of wiggle to it!

Before I go tearing it down again, I was hoping someone could advise me on what likely culprits to look for. The wiggle is up and down - there is no side to side play.

If necessary, I'm happy to send it to a professional tuner if that is required. This is my sweet, sweet baby and needs some lovin' to get back on track.

Sounds like the spring loaded detent has a weak/broken spring or the fixed detents in the receiver (or the spring loaded detentl) is excessively worn. If the detents are "excessively worn" then the probable cause is insufficient or incorrect lubing. Here are a couple pics of my R9 detents after 10s of thousands of shots and the gun still functions perfectly......
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

IF the detent spring is broken or weak it's rather easy to replace by driving out the spring pin retaining the detent, but take note that this spring is rather stiff when trying to compress with reinstalling the detent. If the fixed detent on the receiver tube is worn away then the only replacement the I know of is to buy a rather pricey new receiver tube at about $239.50 from Pyramyd Air........
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/bn-receiver-tube-r9?a=3718

Here is the spring loaded detent which PA refers to as the Locking Wedge........$6.75
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/bn-locking-wedge-r9?a=3800

Here is the spring for the "locking Wedge"......$3.75
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/bn-locking-spring-r9?a=3799

[Yak54]

Ed

What are the acceptable lubes for this application ?

Dan

[wimpanzee]

the spring loaded one seemed quite tight - i could not push it down at all with my fingers. I can't quite get a clear view in your picture, but on mine, the top of the spring loaded detent, the part closest to the barrel, has a slight gap like the detent might not be extending fully - which might explain the looseness.



If that looks wrong, I'll probably need to send it somewhere. I don't think I have anything that can safely compress that spring for removal and reinstallation.

[nced]

Ed

What are the acceptable lubes for this application ?

Dan

For decades the preferred lube has been a molly paste which is comprised of 60% minimum molly powder. I do know that some folk use Honda Moly 60, but I always bought mine from Air Rifle Headquarters however Jim isn't accepting orders at this time. Actually, except for the black staining nature of molly paste it's an EXCELLENT steel to steel lube because the molly powder is extremely hard and it has an affinity for steel surfaces so it kinda "plates" the sliding steel surfaces with micron sized "bearings".

I stopped using molly paste for my piston seal lubing due to the "dieseling tendencies" of it's mineral oil base in favor of Krytox GPL 224 (or 226). The Krytox (or Ultimox) synthetic base won't diesel so I also started using it for ALL my R9 internal lubing and so far after a couple years it's been a great "one grease does all". I do have to mention though that molly paste has been used successfully in spring guns for decades to limit friction and wear!

[nced]

the spring loaded one seemed quite tight - i could not push it down at all with my fingers. I can't quite get a clear view in your picture, but on mine, the top of the spring loaded detent, the part closest to the barrel, has a slight gap like the detent might not be extending fully - which might explain the looseness.



If that looks wrong, I'll probably need to send it somewhere. I don't think I have anything that can safely compress that spring for removal and reinstallation.

Here is a better pic..........
You can see that my detent seems to be flush with the tapered face.
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Looking at the two pics it does seem that your spring loaded detent isn't extended the full distance. Here is what appears to be a "sticking detent"......
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

Perhaps it's simply corroded a bit and "stuck" in the bore so a bit of WD40 and cocking the barrel several times might free it up (assuming the spring isn't broken). To replace a spring loaded "chisel" I use a bar clamp to depress the "chisel" a bit for driving out the spring pin with an appropriately sized punch (or even a correctly fitting nail with the point cut off). After driving out the spring pin, release the clamp pressure to remove the detent and spring. Installation is the reverse but the "retaining notch" in the notch in the "chisel" isn't exactly "on center"  so "only one way is up" to allow the spring pin to be reinstalled by carefully tapping it in place with a small hammer.

Anywhoo.....if the spring is broken, it isn't a big job to replace it, certainly not worth the shipping!

[Pitchfire]

"I stopped using molly paste for my piston seal lubing due to the "dieseling tendencies" of it's mineral oil base in favor of Krytox GPL 224 (or 226)."

I'm curious why not Krytox GPL 215 EP (or 214 or 216 if you prefer those viscosities) with moly for the best of both worlds? in all my searches I haven't seen anybody using Krytox with moly for some odd reason.

[nced]

"I stopped using molly paste for my piston seal lubing due to the "dieseling tendencies" of it's mineral oil base in favor of Krytox GPL 224 (or 226)."

I'm curious why not Krytox GPL 215 EP (or 214 or 216 if you prefer those viscosities) with moly for the best of both worlds? in all my searches I haven't seen anybody using Krytox with moly for some odd reason.

Well.......Krytox GPL 226 already contains a wear/corrosion inhibitor, it isn't staining black, and since I don't consider the workings of a R9 springer to be "extreme pressure" I don't see the need for GPL 215, but it certainly is an option if desired at the same cost but I believe the Krytox 215 contains only 5% molly.
 

[wimpanzee]

I've got a bar clamp on order from Amazon, I'll see what I can do. Otherwise, it might be time for a trip to the Magic Dust Spa.

[Pitchfire]

"I stopped using molly paste for my piston seal lubing due to the "dieseling tendencies" of it's mineral oil base in favor of Krytox GPL 224 (or 226)."

I'm curious why not Krytox GPL 215 EP (or 214 or 216 if you prefer those viscosities) with moly for the best of both worlds? in all my searches I haven't seen anybody using Krytox with moly for some odd reason.

Well.......Krytox GPL 226 already contains a wear/corrosion inhibitor, it isn't staining black, and since I don't consider the workings of a R9 springer to be "extreme pressure" I don't see the need for GPL 215, but it certainly is an option if desired at the same cost but I believe the Krytox 215 contains only 5% molly.

226 is identical to 206 plus sodium nitrite so far as I can tell from all the specs. So far as I am aware sodium nitrite is added strictly for corrosion protection. Given the choice between the questionable added benefit of sodium nitrite (above and beyond standard 205 Krytox corrosion protection) and the known benefits of moly, I would definitely opt for the moly. I guess that is a position unique to myself. If it were a fishing reel that might be different, but it's not. As to the % I don't see why 5% would not be of sufficient and substantial benefit for the purpose we are discussing. To each their own I suppose. Call me the curious cat perhaps...

[nced]

"I stopped using molly paste for my piston seal lubing due to the "dieseling tendencies" of it's mineral oil base in favor of Krytox GPL 224 (or 226)."

I'm curious why not Krytox GPL 215 EP (or 214 or 216 if you prefer those viscosities) with moly for the best of both worlds? in all my searches I haven't seen anybody using Krytox with moly for some odd reason.

Well.......Krytox GPL 226 already contains a wear/corrosion inhibitor, it isn't staining black, and since I don't consider the workings of a R9 springer to be "extreme pressure" I don't see the need for GPL 215, but it certainly is an option if desired at the same cost but I believe the Krytox 215 contains only 5% molly.

226 is identical to 206 plus sodium nitrite so far as I can tell from all the specs. So far as I am aware sodium nitrite is added strictly for corrosion protection. Given the choice between the questionable added benefit of sodium nitrite (above and beyond standard 205 Krytox corrosion protection) and the known benefits of moly, I would definitely opt for the moly. I guess that is a position unique to myself. If it were a fishing reel that might be different, but it's not. As to the % I don't see why 5% would not be of sufficient and substantial benefit for the purpose we are discussing. To each their own I suppose. Call me the curious cat perhaps...

Some good points, however at first I used plain Krytox GPL205 and it worked perfectly. Since the 224,225,226 cost about the same I opted for the "extra protection". Actually, I really don't know if the added sodium nitrate is of any benefit in my R9, even for corrosion resistance. When I first started using Krytox GPL205 I did a little corrosion test of the "plain" Krytox by degreasing two nails, one with GPL205 and one with no lube, then wrapping them with a paper towel soaked in a water with a HEAVY concentration of salt, then letting them set for a couple days. Here are a couple pics of the result.......
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Since I normally don't swab down my R9 receiver ID with salt water and let it set for a couple days I felt the test proved what I wanted to know. Still, as mentioned, since the cost of the GPL205, GPL225, GPL226 is about the same I saw no problem with the "224 to 226 stuff".

LOL....I do have a pound of 6 micron Molly powder if I wanted to add some to my Krytox but so far I haven't seen the need!
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

[Pitchfire]

I wonder how much sodium nitrite is added by volume and consequently how much lubricant is displaced. To be perfectly honest what I would like to try is Krytox XP2A5 (2 meaning grease (1 being oil), 5 representing viscosity as with the GPL grades). The XP test results show a marked improvement over the standard GPL in terms of corrosion and wear scar. Not sure how the formulation is different however and as of yet I have been unable to even find a source that stocks Krytox XP2A5 or XP1A2 (for my casting saltwater reel bearings). If I can find it and afford it I'd like to try it. Failing that I'm going to give GPL 215 a try (unless I decide a different viscosity will be better in the spring chamber, jury is still out on that as many go thinner and many go thicker with presumably little difference).

[ptpalpha]

This is such a great thread....thanks for posting such intelligent, well-researched responses.  I've cut & pasted it/saved it. 
One point: the question was raised above as to why no one was combining the Krytox with moly.  From what I've read, moly paste does not mix well with Krytox.  The commonly used phrase around here is that Krytox "doesn't play well with others". 
From what I understand, and have seen on one rifle that I tried it on, the Krytox will eventually seperate from the moly (I was using Maccari moly), and on my rifle it appeared that the Krytox kind of "balled up" into little chunks instead of staying evenly spread.
Which brings up the idea of Ed's moly powder.  I would guess that the ingredient causing the mixing problem is the mineral oil base of the moly paste.  Perhaps mixing the moly powder to Krytox 206 would yield an optimum combination of lubrication and corrosion inhibiting?  Mixing ratio would need to be determined, and an obvious downside would be that we're once again staining our hands black, but it may be worth the effort.
So....Ed: after you get done wrapping your R9 receiver in a salt-water soaked towel, and burying it in the backyard for a week, maybe you could try various mixtures of Krytox and moly powder for us.  C'mon, brother...you know you're curious!  LOL
All kidding aside, thanks again to Ed and Pitchfire for once again raising the bar regarding intelligent and informative posts.  Threads like these are what I come here for.
-Paul

[scrane]

Is your barrel pivot tension set up correctly?

[Sfttailrdr46]

  Not a hijack but how often should the detent be lubed I have an RX2 and the same set up is used on it as the R9 and I do not want to overlook a critical maintenance issue thanks for any help and back to the R9

[wimpanzee]

Is your barrel pivot tension set up correctly?

I tried a couple different tensions, from fairly stiff holding the barrel up, to the point where the barrel would hinge when I wiggled the gun.

I did take the action out last night, and looked at the detents while they were mated. They do not quite sit flush against each other, flat on the chisels, but the spring loaded one does fully extend to the base of the block when it is closed - the chisled tip has nowhere further to go when closed. However, when I had it out like this, it did seem like the pressure required to break it open was a little light, so maybe the spring inside does have some issue - maybe its just breaking in, but with the pressure needed to break it, I am wondering if the firing cycle could wiggle it enough to slightly break the seal at the breech.

I'll take it apart later today when my clamp arrives.

Thanks for everyones comments and advice!

[nced]

This is such a great thread....thanks for posting such intelligent, well-researched responses.  I've cut & pasted it/saved it. 
One point: the question was raised above as to why no one was combining the Krytox with moly.  From what I've read, moly paste does not mix well with Krytox.  The commonly used phrase around here is that Krytox "doesn't play well with others". 
From what I understand, and have seen on one rifle that I tried it on, the Krytox will eventually seperate from the moly (I was using Maccari moly), and on my rifle it appeared that the Krytox kind of "balled up" into little chunks instead of staying evenly spread.
Which brings up the idea of Ed's moly powder.  I would guess that the ingredient causing the mixing problem is the mineral oil base of the moly paste.  Perhaps mixing the moly powder to Krytox 206 would yield an optimum combination of lubrication and corrosion inhibiting?  Mixing ratio would need to be determined, and an obvious downside would be that we're once again staining our hands black, but it may be worth the effort.
So....Ed: after you get done wrapping your R9 receiver in a salt-water soaked towel, and burying it in the backyard for a week, maybe you could try various mixtures of Krytox and moly powder for us.  C'mon, brother...you know you're curious!  LOL
All kidding aside, thanks again to Ed and Pitchfire for once again raising the bar regarding intelligent and informative posts.  Threads like these are what I come here for.
-Paul

A few comments........

"One point: the question was raised above as to why no one was combining the Krytox with moly.  From what I've read, moly paste does not mix well with Krytox.  The commonly used phrase around here is that Krytox "doesn't play well with others".
Yep....Krytox doesn't mix with "dinosaur based lubes"! Page 9 of this brochure shows that Krytox doesn't burn and isn't dissolved with hydrocarbon solvent.......
http://www2.dupont.com/Lubricants/en_US/assets/downloads/Krytox_Overview_LowRes_H-58505-5.pdf
The issue with mixing Krytox and "dino grease" with high speed bearings is that the "dino grease" in the mix will fail long before the Krytox so the bearing will fail even though the Krytox is still perfectly good! One thing that attracted me to Krytox was the Dupont claim that Krytox can only be removed with special solvents once it's applied. LOL....this was a feature that I was looking for. My first R9 stripping down of old molly paste for Krytox use was done using a couple applications of aerosol brake cleaner, then thoroughly wiping out the receiver with dry rags to remove all petro residues. I did the Krytox GPL205 application and shot a few thousand shots, then tore down the R9 for a "look-see". To my surprise the white Krytox had dark grey swirrles mixed with it, but no clumping as you mentioned. Well....after being puzzled for a while I found the culprit and here is a pic.........
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
The braze between the receiver tube and "end fork" is porous and the pressure/heat of 10s of thousands of shots using molly paste had driven the petro based lube so deep into the voids that even strong brake cleaner couldn't dislodge it........but the Krytox did. About three breakdowns and degrease sessions (a few thousand shots between each) and all is "ginger peachy" now. Something else to consider.....I really don't believe that the springer receiver operated like high speed bearings so I really don't know if residues of molly paste would affect the function of a springer other than a tiny bit of combustion IF the dino oil mixed with the Krytox got in front of the piston seal.   
 
"Perhaps mixing the moly powder to Krytox 206 would yield an optimum combination of lubrication and corrosion inhibiting?  Mixing ratio would need to be determined, and an obvious downside would be that we're once again staining our hands black, but it may be worth the effort."
Well....if you want to buy molly powder here is where I bought mine...........
http://www.rosemill.com/category_s/24.htm
1 pound costs about $50 but there are a lot of grades and "fineness" available. I remember when I used to buy M2M molly paste from Beeman years ago and it was "silky smooth". Then I bought molly paste from an "airgun supplier" and it was considerably grittier. I'm guessing that the two different blends were using different grades of molly powder.

"All kidding aside, thanks again to Ed and Pitchfire for once again raising the bar regarding intelligent and informative posts.  Threads like these are what I come here for."
Thanks for the kind words! I do have to mention though that I'm only posting my "schemes and experiences" and there are knowledgeable airgun folk that take exception to some of my fiascos! 

[nced]

Not a hijack but how often should the detent be lubed I have an RX2 and the same set up is used on it as the R9 and I do not want to overlook a critical maintenance issue thanks for any help and back to the R9

Actually....in over two decades of messing with HW break barrel springers I've never had a spring loaded detent issue but I've always kept my detents lubed with molly paste in the past and Krytox more recently. When the closing of the barrel seems to be "not as slick as usual" I wipe on a bit of lube. LOL....look at this pic and you can see where Krytox has gotten squished between the breech face and the face of the receiver fork.........
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Since Krytox doesn't diesel I'm relatively sloppy with it's application compared to when I was using molly paste.

[Sfttailrdr46]

  Thanks for the answer, mine looks dry so I am going down stairs an dab some in there now