What's The REAL Issue (Umarex Warranty)

[Methuselah]

I'm trying to be fair and objective and would like the groups opinion about how objective Umarex has been in return.

Initial detail that prompted me to ask Umarex for parts is on two separate messages within this thread:  http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86273.msg831158#msg831158

Essentially Umarex tells me the warranty is void because the rifle was over lubricated, and the rear sight is now broken too.

I'll upload a few more pictures below, none of which seem to show up any excess lube and in the pictures I have the rear sight looks OK too (The stock might have protected it better in shipping if they didn't require it be removed before sending it in?).

My take is this:  Simplest explanation is almost always the correct one.  To me this means given QC seems decent to good at Diana, there is likely only ONE root cause behind all the symptoms.  Lack of lubrication, too much lubrication, a bad seal --- and all of these fall into the category of factory defect in my opinion.

I see no excess lubrication in the pictures.  Also can't imagine anyone doing that and then immediately returning it (manufacturing stamp is DE 2014, store displayed it 1/10/15, and I purchased it on 3/20/15.  So, it appears to be a new and perhaps unfired Christmas gift).  What I didn't see was much protrusion of the breach seal.  Maybe 5 to 10 thousandths, and again, it isn't wet looking from lubrication.

It is my suspicion the seal protrusion is marginal, the piston is slamming and that vibration sometimes popped open the breach, shook the screws loose, and caused the front sight to split at the bottom seam and continue to crack and loosen thereafter.  If the rear sight is broken I think it was either shipping, or handling on their end because I bench fired it one time since the picture showing it was OK.  I suppose a damaged or undersized main seal could also be a single-defect item that could cause the same symptoms?

So Umarex insists it's not a warranty issue and initially wanted me to pay $187.46 for repairs.  Before I shipped it they had agreed to send me parts but asked me to ship it to them after I said the seal was on the ground last time the breach popped open making me concerned the piston was slamming the end of the chamber.  They agreed to cover shipping both ways.  It is my impression they had not disassembled it before they quoted repairs.

Am I jumping to conclusions?  Is there something I should have done or something I did that I shouldn't have that could make the breach keep popping open or the screws to keep coming loose (I did keep tightening them but used no Loctite as they directed).  Is there a better explanation or idea of what is causing my issues?  Am I being too stubborn insisting that only one problem is at the root of all symptoms?

Am I wrong to ask Umarex to cover repair under warranty now that they had decided I should ship it to them instead of them just shipping me a front sight and new breach seal?  (It came with all paperwork and original box.)

Sorry so long, this has been going on since I got it...

[JimL911]

How's the piston seal? How many times was it dry fired as a display? Open it up.

[Methuselah]

How's the piston seal? How many times was it dry fired as a display? Open it up.

Once by the kid in the store, presumably just before cracking the sight hood in the Stockroom (I heard him do it).

Umarex has it now and the rest of what's going on is partly in the other thread (again, sorry it is so long a read)

[Booger]

I am not a Umarex warranty fan, not because I have dealt with them, but because of what I have read about them. I will not say anything bad about them, because I try to give everyone the benefit of a doubt. Sometimes I also find it best to talk to them over the phone as opposed to email, because the written word may not always come across as one intended. I use to own 2 D-34's. One was a .22 that I should have returned, but instead I sent to a professional tuner. The barrel had to be hand lapped in 2 different places before the pellet got to the choke. $300 later I had a lights out D-34. It also had a 3 part spring in my .22 & a 4 part spring in my .177 after 1 months use. I must confess I do miss my D-34s they are awesome rifles, but I would prefer to skip the warranty and tune them myself. (The gentleman who tuned my rifles actually spent 2 hours with me and showed me how to tear them down, what to do, and how to put it back together. As long as I do not mess with the trigger, I now feel qualified to do my own tunes on the D-34 & MROD.

As a side note: A warranty is only as good as the person who stands behind it, and sometimes only as good as the paper it is printed on. 

[Methuselah]

I am not a Umarex warranty fan, not because I have dealt with them, but because of what I have read about them. I will not say anything bad about them, because I try to give everyone the benefit of a doubt. Sometimes I also find it best to talk to them over the phone as opposed to email, because the written word may not always come across as one intended. I use to own 2 D-34's. One was a .22 that I should have returned, but instead I sent to a professional tuner. The barrel had to be hand lapped in 2 different places before the pellet got to the choke. $300 later I had a lights out D-34. It also had a 3 part spring in my .22 & a 4 part spring in my .177 after 1 months use. I must confess I do miss my D-34s they are awesome rifles, but I would prefer to skip the warranty and tune them myself. (The gentleman who tuned my rifles actually spent 2 hours with me and showed me how to tear them down, what to do, and how to put it back together. As long as I do not mess with the trigger, I now feel qualified to do my own tunes on the D-34 & MROD.

Jesse,

Thanks for responding.  Sorry you too had factory issues with your Diana 34's.

I did speak with them, at least three different people and it has been "kicked upstairs to a manager" that will call me back yesterday to let me know what they plan on doing.

As a side note: A warranty is only as good as the person who stands behind it, and sometimes only as good as the paper it is printed on. 

I reckon the real issue is you don't hear about the problems because folks return them instead of complaining about them, send them on to a tuner, or abandon the warranty.  But that is the purpose of this post --- to find out if other folks who feel this is a warranty issue can offer me some advice as to how to convey this to Umarex!

Thanks again Jesse!

[packard8]

How's the piston seal? How many times was it dry fired as a display? Open it up.

Once by the kid in the store, presumably just before cracking the sight hood in the Stockroom (I heard him do it).

Umarex has it now and the rest of what's going on is partly in the other thread (again, sorry it is so long a read)

That would have killed the deal for me right there. Was it a display rifle? If so, no telling how many times it was dry fired by uninformed customers & staff.
Hopefully Umarex will take care of you, but I would have walked away after the dry fire and incident in the stock room. Good luck with it.

[Methuselah]

How's the piston seal? How many times was it dry fired as a display? Open it up.

Once by the kid in the store, presumably just before cracking the sight hood in the Stockroom (I heard him do it).

Umarex has it now and the rest of what's going on is partly in the other thread (again, sorry it is so long a read)

That would have killed the deal for me right there. Was it a display rifle? If so, no telling how many times it was dry fired by uninformed customers & staff.
Hopefully Umarex will take care of you, but I would have walked away after the dry fire and incident in the stock room. Good luck with it.

Long story (nobody would bother to read).  Not a display, almost certainly a Christmas return.  Discounted, but no refunds I expected MUCH better than I got.

I think the breach seal was bad, but when all the consequences snowballed & I got concerned the piston had been slamming the end of the chamber I (foolishly?) took Umarex at their word they would fix it.

[haertig]

I'm having trouble following your story.  You said they denied your claim because the gun was over lubed.  Did you lube it?

You said you bought the gun new.  But then you allude to a returned Christmas gift?  I don't understand.  Did you buy it new, or used?

[Methuselah]

I'm having trouble following your story.  You said they denied your claim because the gun was over lubed.  Did you lube it?

Thank you for trying!!!  I know it's a long, tough read.  There was no smoke or evidence of burning any lube.  Pics show breach choke, seal, and muzzle dry, not shiny, and no - I did not lube anything.  I just elaborated a little in the linked thread (it has other pictures too)

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86273.msg844273#msg844273

You said you bought the gun new.  But then you allude to a returned Christmas gift?  I don't understand.  Did you buy it new, or used?

I honestly think from the timing it HAD to be a returned Christmas gift, likely unfired, sold discounted.  Probably needed floss behind breach seal, but problems and consequences made me decide to trust Umarex.

[packard8]

I'm having trouble following your story.  You said they denied your claim because the gun was over lubed.  Did you lube it?

Thank you for trying!!!  I know it's a long, tough read.  There was no smoke or evidence of burning any lube.  Pics show breach choke, seal, and muzzle dry, not shiny, and no - I did not lube anything.  I just elaborated a little in the linked thread (it has other pictures too)

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86273.msg844273#msg844273

You said you bought the gun new.  But then you allude to a returned Christmas gift?  I don't understand.  Did you buy it new, or used?

I honestly think from the timing it HAD to be a returned Christmas gift, likely unfired, sold discounted.  Probably needed floss behind breach seal, but problems and consequences made me decide to trust Umarex.

Now I'm getting confused...where did you buy the gun...from an authorized dealer or a flea market? How did Umarex determine that is was "over lubed" has it gone back to them for inspection? Inquiring minds want to know 

If it was indeed a "Christmas return", you don't know how many times little Jimmy dry fired it playing Cowboys & Indians while Dad was out getting pizza. I think your beef is really more with the retailer than with Umarex. If the rifle was abused (like the counter person dry firing it and breaking the front sight), that would be considered "misuse" or "abuse" and likely not covered by any warranty. Sometimes a "good deal" is not so much.

I hope you get it resolved, but like they say "Caveat Emptor" when buying from a retailer who sells "as is" and doesn't offer refunds.

[Charles Outdoors]

I just have to ask. Would you send your air rifle to Umarex to work on if it wasn't in warranty. Don't sound any better than Hatsan's repair center.

[haertig]

So YOU did not lube it, and the retailer sold it to you as NEW.

So tell Umarex exactly that.  If they say it's over lubed, then they must have been the ones to over lube it.  You bought it new, in box.  You can easily explain the broken sight - the retailer dropped it, then offered you a discount because of the broken sight.  You can't expect Umarex to replace that sight for free, but they should be willing to sell you a new sight, at your expense.

Now, I still don't get this "Christmas return" thing.  Did the retailer tell you that, or did they tell you it was a new gun?  That's a simple question.  If you are just speculating that it was a return, what are you basing your speculation on?  Do you think the retailer is lying to you about the status of the rifle?  If you think the retailer is lying and sold you a used/returned gun but represented it as new, does Umarex agree with you on that?  If so, go after the retailer.  It doesn't matter if they have a no refund/return policy.  If they LIED to you and said it was a new gun when it wasn't, their return policy is irrelevant.  You just need to stand up for yourself.

If you determine that the retailer is lying, go after them through the chamber of commerce, and if you have a local talk radio station that does consumer advocacy programs (many do), sic them on the retailer.

If you determine that Umarex is at fault and you're getting nowhere with their warrantee department, do an internet search and find out Umarex's main directory number.  Call it, and ask to speak to the head of the company.  Don't be shy, they'll probably connect you.  I had a bad Lawn Boy mower many years ago.  The repair department wouldn't acknowledge an obvious quality/warrantee issue.  So I contacted the company and asked for the president.  They said he was out of the office for a week, so I said one of the VP's would do.  They connected me.  Much apologizing from their end at that point.  They offered me my choice of any of their lawn mowers, even an upgrade to a costlier model, because the Lawn Boy production line was converted to other gear at that time and I'd have to wait a few months since they had no stock.  Then they said, "Wait, if you'd prefer a Toro mower, we're the same company and we'll give you an upgrade to one of those now if you wish, we have some stock of those".  I was flabbergasted by their generosity and said I didn't want to take advantage and I'd wait for the Lawn Boy.  I now wish I had taken the Toro, but oh well (now I have a Honda which beats them all).  My point being, don't be afraid to escalate your concerns if you don't think you're being treated right.

Another trick, if the main phone operator is stand-offish and refuses to connect you to the higher ups, is to try blind dialing a phone number that is very close to their main number.  e.g., if the main number is 303-444-1000, try dialing 303-444-1001.  I can tell you from experience (I work used to with corporate phone systems) that the phone numbers that are very close to the companies main number are highly sought after by the executives.  It's a stupid ego and status thing for them to nab one of these numbers.  You might get a fax by accident (those are also usually close to the main number), but try a few more close by.  You also might get some unsuspecting normal employee who hasn't been trained in deflecting customers like executive secretaries are, and this poor schmuck might just put you through when a secretary or main operator would have bounced you.  Companies generally have a block of phone numbers clustered together, when blind dialing you should try varying the last digit or two of the main phone number.  If you start varying farther up the string of digits, depending on the size of the company you are targeting, you might jump yourself right out of that companies block.

While I'm babbling on about typical phone system setup, here's one other tip: When you find yourself trapped in an automated response system ("Dial 1 for ABC, 2 for XYZ...") your goal should be to make yourself look as stupid as possible to the system.  e.g., if they give you four choices, always make that fifth, unmentioned choice.  I can't remember what the feature was called when we advertised it to buyers, but internally we called it the "AMI count".  "Automated Moron Intercept".  Typically we set this to "3".  So after you make three incredibly stupid choices in the menu system, it would reroute you to a human queue.

[Methuselah]

So YOU did not lube it, and the retailer sold it to you as NEW.

So tell Umarex exactly that.  If they say it's over lubed, then they must have been the ones to over lube it.  You bought it new, in box.  You can easily explain the broken sight - the retailer dropped it, then offered you a discount because of the broken sight.  You can't expect Umarex to replace that sight for free, but they should be willing to sell you a new sight, at your expense.

Now, I still don't get this "Christmas return" thing.  Did the retailer tell you that, or did they tell you it was a new gun?  That's a simple question.  If you are just speculating that it was a return, what are you basing your speculation on?  Do you think the retailer is lying to you about the status of the rifle?  If you think the retailer is lying and sold you a used/returned gun but represented it as new, does Umarex agree with you on that?  If so, go after the retailer.  It doesn't matter if they have a no refund/return policy.  If they LIED to you and said it was a new gun when it wasn't, their return policy is irrelevant.  You just need to stand up for yourself.

PM sent, thanks!

Exactly right first two paragraphs, I offered to pay for that front sight (hood was damaged, did yahoo see the pics --- crack originates at bottom seam and assembly is almost ready to fall off, but I offered to pay for the part anyway)

As to return item question, please see other thread, I don't have a keyboard with me today 

Thanks again for responding, I appreciate it!  Hopefully I will speak with Umarex again today or tomorrow.

[Methuselah]

John,

Now I'm getting confused...where did you buy the gun...from an authorized dealer or a flea market? How did Umarex determine that is was "over lubed" has it gone back to them for inspection? Inquiring minds want to know 

I know more since yesterday after speaking with them again.  Umarex determined it was “over lubed” by seeing exactly what you do in the above picture of the spring through the slot in the receiver.

They claim (excessive) chamber oil was used on the spring, that it will not enter the chamber or cause smoke from the barrel.  From that picture, do you agree with them?  I doubt you can even buy chamber lube here in town.

Authorized dealer, no.  Here’s some info about them:

http://www.bbb.org/northern-alabama/business-reviews/discount-stores/essex-bargain-hunt-in-huntsville-al-900124080

I did have the AG in my hands and looked it over before deciding to buy it (cocked it back almost to the point of latchup), since fired some 70 rounds through it, and in my opinion it started out new and possibly unfired.  You don't have to trust my opinion, but it would be nice to know if you were in my position, would you trust your own opinion without having the luxury of disassembling it for inspection first?

Most of the pictures were taken after it had between 50 and 70 rounds through it.


Charles,

I just have to ask. Would you send your air rifle to Umarex to work on if it wasn't in warranty. Don't sound any better than Hatsan's repair center.

Mostly because after concluding it was new, it was my position it should be covered by warranty and they agreed to the extent they were willing to send me the parts to fix it.  It was only after circumstances suggested the piston could be slamming the end of the chamber that the gun tech told me he wanted to (presumably, open it up and) look at it.

Truth be told at this point I wish I hadn't sent it to them.  If they hadn't agreed to cover shipping I would have said heck with the warranty, but as I've alluded to – I do not believe there was excess lubrication, nor do I believe they were being honest with me in their assessment of what is really wrong with it.

I will elaborate when they return it as the last conversation I had with them was enlightening, to say the least!  First I wish to see how they treat it on the return shipping!

[Methuselah]

Well, Umarex STILL has the rifle.  They say the spring is broken, not covered by warranty, and I have to pay them to get my gun back.

below is picture to compare the other one at the top of this thread.  The guy I spoke with said he was going to claim shipping damage for the front and rear sight, replace the front and fix the rear and ship it back to me unrepaired.  The sights were NOT broken in shipping and apparently he is equally honest about returning my rifle as well...

I've got a BBB complaint in progress and when it goes public access I will let GTA know what happened.  This part you won't have to wait on; I will never consider owning any rifle serviced by Umarex again...

Oh, yeah, does anyone believe from the pictures that the spring was broken?!  Let me know if you guys are tired of hearing about this and I will it die - Thanks, Steve (Methuselah).

[Geoff]

I would be curious how this pans out

[Booger]

Springs are considered consumables and not covered under warranty. Sometimes springs are broken on the ends and can not be seen while in the gun, Best way is to remove the springs and see where it is broken. A spring on a D34 is easy to replace. JMHO

[nytebyte]

The spring could have been broke. On my 34 you could not tell it was until I had it apart. It was broke inside the piston and back by the trigger unit.

[Methuselah]

The spring could have been broke. On my 34 you could not tell it was until I had it apart. It was broke inside the piston and back by the trigger unit.

Oops --- I guess to be more clear, there is a picture of my gun spring (visible through the slot) at the first post on top, and the one I just posted today is a different gun belonging to someone I work with who only fired 100 to 200 rounds.  Mine had 70 through it.  I count 14 1/2 coils end to end pretty much exactly on both pictures.  After getting so many lies out of Umarex I tend to believe their claim that my spring was broken is just yet another lie but I suppose anything is possible (even though I haven't caught them telling the truth yet  )

If the spring was broken it sure didn't shoot any different from shot #1 to the time I sent it to them, but I digress --- let it all get said in one spot when the BBB closes the complaint.

Thanks for your input!

[packard8]

Personally, I think you are tilting at windmills.  As stated by Redfeather on the Dianawerk forum, you bought a used airgun. The original owner purchased it as a present (you think) and returned it. Somehow it ended up at the "bargain outlet" where you bought it, not at an authorized RWS dealer. Legally you have no warranty with Umarex as you are not the original owner. It has been dry fired once in your presence and who knows how many times that you are not aware of. That is misuse and would void a warranty (if you had one).

You should be seeking redress with the retailer who sold you the gun, not the importer.