How many of you test your tanks?

[LDP]

I totally understand why a tank gets tested when a store or shop fills them, but what about when you fill yourself?

So do you place less worth on your life or limb than the shop does?

I've been told that these tanks are built beyond their psi ratings and there is nothing to worry about.

Thats only true if you have the tank inspected on schedule to make sure the structural integrity of the vessel has not been compromised. If the tank gets damaged to the point that the integrity is compromised you have allot to worry about.

 Bottom line just spend the small amount to get it inspected.

[Joekrooz]

I totally understand why a tank gets tested when a store or shop fills them, but what about when you fill yourself?

So do you place less worth on your life or limb than the shop does?

I've been told that these tanks are built beyond their psi ratings and there is nothing to worry about.

Thats only true if you have the tank inspected on schedule to make sure the structural integrity of the vessel has not been compromised. If the tank gets damaged to the point that the integrity is compromised you have allot to worry about.

 Bottom line just spend the small amount to get it inspected.

[Joekrooz]

I totally understand why a tank gets tested when a store or shop fills them, but what about when you fill yourself?

So do you place less worth on your life or limb than the shop does?

I've been told that these tanks are built beyond their psi ratings and there is nothing to worry about.

Thats only true if you have the tank inspected on schedule to make sure the structural integrity of the vessel has not been compromised. If the tank gets damaged to the point that the integrity is compromised you have allot to worry about.

 Bottom line just spend the small amount to get it inspected.

Yeah I get it.  I posted this three months ago when I first got my tank.  Thanks!

[cilami]

FWIW,

See this report: Navy Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA) Composite Cylinder Life Extension Research Project

http://phmsa.dot.gov/pv_obj_cache/pv_obj_id_BB511F545C3EAEC4E657A1522DC1872145C70900/filename/FINAL-Report-SCBA_Cylinder_Life_Extension_Study_09202012.pdf

Quoted from the report:

"The Navy’s Common Maintenance Planning Working Group (CMPWG), the study sponsor, worked
closely with DOT to develop a study test plan and to review results. The goals of the study were to
conclusively address two questions to determine whether SCBA cylinder service life can be safely
extended. The questions were:
1. Do Navy SCBA cylinders have the long-term strength and integrity required to safely withstand fill
cycles associated with extending their service life beyond the DOT 15-year maximum?
2. Can Modal Acoustic Emissions testing be used to predict impending failure in time to allow for
failing cylinders to be safely removed from service?
The answer to both questions is yes. The case for requesting service-life extension is supported by
extensive engineering tests. The tests included SCBA cylinder cycling to mimic extended service life
and burst testing to determine ultimate strength of end-of-life, cycled, and damaged cylinders. SCBA
cylinder strength does not degrade with calendar age or pressure cycles at operational pressure. The
study induced a full range of physical damage to cylinders to determine the effectiveness of Modal
Acoustic Emissions testing. The testing revealed a linear relationship between a cylinder’s acoustic
signature and ultimate burst pressure. Modal Acoustic Emissions testing is also effective at identifying
discrete material flaws that correlate to individual cylinder burst pressure."

"Cylinders are also inspected at the appropriate three- or five-year test interval by
SCBA Cylinder Life-Extension Study, Final Report (August 2012) 2-2
certified testers prior to hydrostatic testing. About half of all visual inspection failures observed
are due to wear or damage experienced from exposure to knocks and abrasion during frequent
firefighting drills on Navy ships. The other major category of visual inspection failures consists
of those induced by hydrostatic testing—including cylinder stem thread galling due to improper
removal and reinstallation of the cylinder valve fitting, and to interior cylinder surface contamination
or corrosion caused by improper drying of the cylinders after hydrostatic testing.
Hydrostatic testing of the cylinders is accomplished by removing the valve from the cylinder,
threading on a test connection, filling the cylinder with water, pressurizing the cylinder to fivethirds
(5/3) of service pressure, and measuring cylinder expansion. Based on findings regarding
testing-induced failures and the high hydrostatic testing false-positive rate, it is likely that more
cylinders are damaged by the hydrostatic testing process than by service handling and usage."

[Sfttailrdr46]

  You have got to appreciate the energy we expend researching all things AG related including finding reports like the one above. I love the GTA and all the wackos who reside here sharing our passion for all things AG 

[Case Stuffer]

I have read post on  Diving and SCBA  Forums mostly ones which directly pertain to HPA tank inspections until I am about read out and the conclusion I keep coming to    is that the   Annual Visual Inspections are most likely more important than the Hydro /  Over Pressure  Test.  The Visual sometimes reveal  surface damage , cracks in the neck area ,damaged / corroded threads or corrosion of a significant degree in the tank. It also keeps being pointed out that moisture in the tank is the most common and  dangerous cause of failure other than external damage which is or should be  fairly simple to check for and prevent by handling tanks carefully .

Has anyone ever had a HPA past the  Visual Inspection and the fail the Pressure / Hydro?


Post on Yellow Forum

Snip

3. Found another dive shop that was listed here on the forum in Tampa. I called him and he assured me he could fill my tanks. Even though he's listed to fill to 4500 psi, he could actually get 4100 psi. Drove 35 miles down there. He looked at the tanks and said "where are the visual inspection stickers"? One of my tanks was brand new, but he said that it needs visual inspection before the first fill and it's only good for a year (hear that Joe B.?). So, only $6 to fill, but $9 more for the visual.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1385581253/Air+Tank+Filling+Adventrures

I have also purchased a new HPA tank with no inspection stickers at all only a DOT #  and 04-CL -15  which  must be manufactured  by Carleton Tech    date.

Why is it so many  are award of the Required 5 year  Hydro test   but not the Annual Visual?


Added 8-3-15
Snip from two post above

About half of all visual inspection failures observed
are due to wear or damage experienced from exposure to knocks and abrasion during frequent
firefighting drills on Navy ships. The other major category of visual inspection failures consists
of those induced by hydrostatic testing—including cylinder stem thread galling due to improper
removal and reinstallation of the cylinder valve fitting, and to interior cylinder surface contamination
or corrosion caused by improper drying of the cylinders after hydrostatic testing.

[Bullit]

The visual test is for your future safety.  Mostly, the failures will be around the valve and thread areas.  While it may fail today or few fills from now...  it is truely for your safety.   If he won't fill it...there's a good reason...both for him and U !
edit:    Be happy that guys like that, have your 6.

[Pellgunfun]

True that!!!!

Besides the annual visual inspections are cheap.


Now what I'm about to type pertains ONLY to tanks intended for scuba diving.

You have to have a visual inspection once every 12 calendar months, and a Hydro inspection every 5 calendar years.  The hydro is a much more in-depth inspection, and the dive shop usually has to ship the tanks off to have the hydro's performed.

It is possible to find a Dive shop that will fill a tank that doesn't have a visual inspection sticker, but they are rare.  Just make sure to let them know it will NOT be used for diving.

Visual inspections are somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 to $15 dollars, and a Hydro inspection will be in the neighborhood of $55 to $70 dollars.  This largely depends on where you are in the country.

In the end though, it is up to the Dive shop whether they are willing to take the risk to refill a tank that doesn't have a sticker or 5 year hydro stamp.  If you have ever had the "privilege" of being in a Dive Shop when a scuba tank fails at 3500 psi you will NEVER want to experience that again... I can assure you.

[Rattus58]

True that!!!!

Besides the annual visual inspections are cheap.


Now what I'm about to type pertains ONLY to tanks intended for scuba diving.

You have to have a visual inspection once every 12 calendar months, and a Hydro inspection every 5 calendar years.  The hydro is a much more in-depth inspection, and the dive shop usually has to ship the tanks off to have the hydro's performed.

It is possible to find a Dive shop that will fill a tank that doesn't have a visual inspection sticker, but they are rare.  Just make sure to let them know it will NOT be used for diving.

Visual inspections are somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 to $15 dollars, and a Hydro inspection will be in the neighborhood of $55 to $70 dollars.  This largely depends on where you are in the country.

In the end though, it is up to the Dive shop whether they are willing to take the risk to refill a tank that doesn't have a sticker or 5 year hydro stamp.  If you have ever had the "privilege" of being in a Dive Shop when a scuba tank fails at 3500 psi you will NEVER want to experience that again... I can assure you.

How did it fail?

[ztirffritz]

Examples of failures through controlled testing.


Fill station contianment unit demonstration (ie they blow up a 4500psi tank inside)

[Rattus58]

Examples of failures through controlled testing.


Fill station contianment unit demonstration (ie they blow up a 4500psi tank inside)

I've seen the first video you linked as a result of your comment... and it seems to me that these failures were forced catastrophic events. I'm more curious how one has actually failed in practice.

Thank you...

much Aloha.....

[ztirffritz]

It's probably rare to see a tank fail while in use. Rarer still to catch it on video. These examples replicate real world failure scenarios. Things dropped on the nozzles, tanks knocked over, impacts from car accidents, etc. I can tell you that I witnessed a CO2 tank get knocked over and turn into a rocket when the valve was knocked off. It went through a cinder block wall. It does happen and people do get hurt. It is unlikely,but people need to treat the tanks with respect. They are dangerous and not many people handle them. If everyone had reason to handle these tanks there'd be a lot more attention on safety.

[Pellgunfun]

How did it fail?

I was told that "best guess" was micro cracks in the tank near the neck.

[RHytonen]

True that!!!!

Besides the annual visual inspections are cheap.

Not here. Half the price of a tank - better to just buy them every couple of years.
And, there are NO places to have someone else fill tanks here within 100+ miles.
No SCUBA, no paintball here (Mid-Ohio Valley WV.)
VFD's fear permit reprisal from the state's Airgas MONOPOLY.
They've been threatened by the local dealer.
Compressed air prices there are truly outrageous (like $80/Mo. rentals - I checked.
And you know the REALLY high pressure Regulator prices for Nitrogen,
which they won't do at high pressure anyway here. Probly an insurance thing. It's a weld shop.)

-So, bottom line, someone "accepting" (or rejecting) certification is not an issue here.
I HAVE to fill my own. ALWAYS.

'NEW' (used but tested) TANK(currently, end-of-life SCBA 88):  =~$200 or less.
TESTING (from here in the boonies?): ($55-) $70 + $20sh +$20sh = ~$110.
 
(Not on a $1K/month total SS budget. BUT:
"New" tank every 2 years? Yes. $10/month, no waiting.)

I'm digging a well-vented large hole (protected against flooding) to keep -and fill- it in,
outdoors -like a small missile silo (no possibility of a "mortar",)
and taking my chances -what very few remain after that.
If (when) I get nervous I'll replace it -as above.

I use a long -well rated- microbore hose and fill parts
(worth it - can be reused, unlike the tanks themselves)
and an automated (FD) pump I'm building on a -REALLY- HEAVY wheeled stand.

[Pellgunfun]

@ RHytonen

That's a real shame.  Sorry to hear the situation is like that in your area.  I guess you are left with no choice but to setup your own filling station.  Good luck to ya.


Fill your in-ground holding tank with cold water.  Fill the water up to the valve when the tank is submerged in the tank.  That will keep the heat in check while you are filling them.

[Case Stuffer]

RHytonen your logic makes sense to me and you seem a lot more concerned than I am.

I really feel that the 15 yr. life limit ,annual visual inspection and 5 year Hydro requirements  are not really justified for most  airgun users We do not take our CF tanks into burning buildings , they do not have parts of structures falling on them and do not get banged around while being strapped to our backs. etc.. Just look at some of the photos posted on E Bay of used SCBA  CF tanks some of which have seen less than 10 years of active service  and look like  they beat within an inch of their life but became surplus due to new equipment being added  or FD changed suppliers they did not just going off while setting in storage.   

I fully understand why most feel better at a gathering if all  HPA tanks are certified as being safe however I also  believe this from post #23 above

Snip

Based on findings regarding
testing-induced failures and the high hydrostatic testing false-positive rate, it is likely that more
cylinders are damaged by the hydrostatic testing process than by service handling and usage."

I have a 15 yr. old 87 cf  SCBA  which was last inspected in   2005 . It is a Scott has very slight wear points on the external graphics ,has no cracks, gouges ,chips in the gel coat.   It is setting in my shop  up on a shelf well out of  harms way with 4.5K PSI in it and  as long as my shop does not catch on fire or get leveled by a Hurricane  or I do something really careless and drop it I am not worried about it in the least.  Fact is it would IMO be more subject to damage being shipped , handled by someone  just putting in their 8 hours and being subjected to 7,500 PSI. 




                         

[Joe Brancato]

I offer free fills to anyone that stops by.  But there is no way I would fill a tank that hasn't had an inspection (nor has any professional offered the same to me or others).  The risks are not worth it.  I am one of the "Thriftiest" people you will ever meet, but I can't see risking my life because a guy wants to save a few bucks on a dead tank.  A BRAND NEW carbon fiber tank with all the necessary hardware and 15 years of life can be found for $589,  and used tanks with a year or so left with hoses for cheaper.  So why go so cheap that one risks their life, and possibly others?   A safe tank is part of the cost of the hobby.  If people fill a tank at their own home and use it their home, God bless them and I wish them the best in safety, but please  don't think it right they risk others lives by bringing said tank next to another shooter at a match in the blazing Arizona sun, etc.

When I got into this hobby, a brand new somewhat entry level airgun cost about $1400 in today's dollars, and tanks were more than $600-$700 in todays. They bought an expensive gun and knew the hobby wasn't a cheap one to enter.   One of the greatest things was the advent of the Marauder, a very nice gun for under $600.   People expect  a tank that cost a third of the gun, and it just isn't any where possible with rising suppliers costs (Even for those that are selling Asian products).  Many have tried the smaller paintball tanks with a paintball regulator set to 2900 PSI, but they find it neither large enough, and rather limiting due to pressure output. Especially with all these new airguns using 3000, 3500 and most of them 4500 PSI. Bottom line, a safe tank is a necessary purchase.

I guess my point (sorry for the rambling) is that I tell people almost daily, this isn't INITIALLY a cheap hobby, be careful.  AFTER the initial purchases, it is. Up-front costs are significant.

For a powder burner, one can initially buy a somewhat inexpensive 22 LR gun (with expensive ammo), with Airguns it is the opposite.
We buy a more expensive gun, and all the "Gun powder" (in the form of an airtank) which is a large initial cost. From then on we only purchase pellets (cheap ammo) .  People new to hobby sometimes only see the cheap gun, and pellets, and forget the "powder/power" necessary to propel said pellet. 

Mamy of us have traded lots of airguns over the years, but we rarely get rid of our airtank.  It is the common core for our airgun shooting "system", and hence part of the investment.

Please understand who I am. I came from the aerospace industry.  Fortunately, we take safety seriously.  I get nervous when I read "I think...".  One needs to not only think, but needs to KNOW.  Even if I didn't have a dog in this arena, I'd be preaching safety.  PLEASE be safe to yourself, and others.

[Case Stuffer]

A BRAND NEW carbon fiber tank with all the necessary hardware and 15 years of life can be found for $589

How much is the total for 15 years if you add in the annual inspections and the  5 year Hydros?

Should a brand new CF  tank have any form of inspection sticker on it other than  the month and year it was made and DOT #     as per the white  area around the bottom of    the tanks you sale?   

Yes indeed my Guppy which I purchased from Tom K. cost more than my Disco.

I have seen new 60 min. SCBA 4500 PSI tanks listed for between $1700 and $2700.  Does this mean they are better / safer than the tanks sold  by those in the airgun trade?


http://www.zoro.com/avon-isi-scba-cylinder-4500-psi-60-min-carbon-124004/i/G5984912/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=CODxyNH6nMcCFZI2gQodZ30Lcw&gclsrc=aw.ds

[LDP]

Should a brand new CF  tank have any form of inspection sticker on it other than  the month and year it was made and DOT #     as per the white  area around the bottom of    the tanks you sale?   

Yes indeed my Guppy which I purchased from Tom H. cost more than my Disco.

I have seen new 60 min. SCBA 4500 PSI tanks listed for between $1700000 and $2700.  Does this mean they are better / safer than the tanks sold  by those in the airgun trade?

A new tank will not have a hydro sticker on it because the born on date is the first hydro date. If it is older than 5 years and there is no hydro sticker you will have to get a fresh hydro. I would think the visual inspection works the same way but I am not sure on that one.

[Joe Brancato]

A BRAND NEW carbon fiber tank with all the necessary hardware and 15 years of life can be found for $589

How much is the total for 15 years if you add in the annual inspections and the  5 year Hydros?  $589 Plus 2 Hydro tests performed for the full life of the tank. Then you keep the valve, gauges, hoses, and buy just the bottle. 

Should a brand new CF  tank have any form of inspection sticker on it other than  the month and year it was made and DOT #     as per the white  area around the bottom of    the tanks you sale?   

Yes indeed my Guppy which I purchased from Tom K. cost more than my Disco.

I have seen new 60 min. SCBA 4500 PSI tanks listed for between $1700 and $2700.  Does this mean they are better / safer than the tanks sold  by those in the airgun trade?


http://www.zoro.com/avon-isi-scba-cylinder-4500-psi-60-min-carbon-124004/i/G5984912/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=CODxyNH6nMcCFZI2gQodZ30Lcw&gclsrc=aw.ds

Hydro-testing is typically around $25.  I've seen lower, but I usually pay about that even when I was doing 40 at a time (when I sold used tanks, but I can no longer can find them).  For an average of $5 a year, it's in the noise level.

As for our PCP Airgun tanks costing less than those sold by the fire departments, it is because margins are very small due to competition.  Tanks for airguns are cheaper in today's dollars than they were 15 years ago, and carbon fiber prices continue to climb (and we have to compete against those selling cheaper Asian tanks).