Newbie question on R9 in .177, .20 or .22 format

[T-Higgs]

Fully re-cock barrel and the safety will re-engage or do exactly what you did and unlock the gun. Doesn't get much safer than that. I love the option, very usefull.

[nced]

Well, I took a long hike to the only Beeman distributor in the area where he had a .20 cal R9 to look at.  To make a long story short, I spent a bit of time reviewing the rifle, and came away with the impression that it certainly is worth the asking ~ $550 for the R9 in .177 in the Elite package with scope.  The bluing wasn't deep but still nice, the stock seemed to be make out of beech??? and had good CNC'd checkering, etc. etc.  Breaking the bbl. open was certainly smoother and with significant better precision feel than the Ruger AH or Stoeger X20S I'm learning on...  Now, to my question:

How in the world do you put the R9 back on 'safety' once you've taken it off to take a shot and then don't take that shot???  The only way I could put the R9 back on 'safety' was to break open the bbl. again, hold onto the bbl. .... pull the trigger... and decompress the spring which seems to reset the rifle back on safety!  Is this Newbie missing something very obvious???   

nced - I too noticed the bbl. pivot tension was very light but noticed some 'galling' on the block holding the bbl.  I'll need to follow your advice on extremely light tension adjustment on that pivot assembly.  Also, could you let me in on what you set the 'torque settings' for the action screws to start with?

Art   

A few comments:
$550 for the R9 in .177 in the Elite package with scope.
They may have changed but I know a couple that bought the "package"and it came with a Bushnell Banner scope and they did have "scope issues" in a relatively short time. A "plain" Beeman R9 can be had for about $470! Perhaps I'm "off base" but I personally never liked the "package deals"!

The bluing wasn't deep but still nice, the stock seemed to be make out of beech?
While the R9 bluing isn't the extremely deep polished bluing of the English Webleys I still think that it's pretty good.
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Yep....the stock is beech and some are "prettier" than others. Years ago Beeman used to offer a couple "select options" like "select condition stock", "scope barrel angle" and "select group". LOL.....each of these options cost an extra $1. 

How in the world do you put the R9 back on 'safety' once you've taken it off to take a shot and then don't take that shot???
Easiest is to simply shoot the two cent pellet!  Just yankin' yer chain! All you do is recock the gun which resets the safety, no need to de-cock the gun. By the way....don't lose a grip on the barrel if de-cocking.....if the barrel slips it WILL bend the barrel or split the stock...or both! Better to simply shoot off a pellet than de-cocking the gun which leaves a pellet in the breech.

I'll need to follow your advice on extremely light tension adjustment on that pivot assembly.  Also, could you let me in on what you set the 'torque settings' for the action screws to start with?
Actually, I don't use an "extremely light tension", I use a tension so the the cocked barrel JUST FALLS from any position in the arc. The pivot bolt of the R9 is a M7x.75 size (a real oddball) and there is a spring lock washer under the head of the bolt and another spring lock washer under the lock nut on the opposite side to keep the nut in place. Even with the "cocked barrel just falls" tension there is still considerable side tension on the barrel pivot block. Perhaps the "galling" you're seeing is bluing that was worn away by rubbing one of the stock forearm "forks". Wood will twist/warp a bit with atmospheric changes in humidity so this is a rather common issue with the extended stock configuration of the R9 stock. The plain HW95 has the old design stock without the extended forearm so the wear on the bluing isn't an issue. Actually, this wear happened to my R9 but really not a biggie other than an annoyance. I simply cold blued the worn pivot block and sanded away a bit of wood from the offending stock forearm fork. This pic shows a bit of the scraping I have on my R9 before the "stock fork sanding".......
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Here is a pic of the plain HW95  showing the old design stock......
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Personally, I prefer the old stock design and when I turn my walnut slabs into a new stock I'll be doing the "old style".......
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

Also, could you let me in on what you set the 'torque settings' for the action screws to start with?
The HW stock screw torque specs per HW in Germany..........
Front stock screws = 2.5 Nm is equal approximately to 22.1 in-lb, and Large trigger guard screw = 5 Nm is equal to 44.3 in-lb, and rear trigger guard screw = 2.5 Nm is equal approximately to 22.1 in-lb.
I do have to mention that you have good instincts concerning screw torque because MANY (including myself) have over torqued stock mounting screws which leads to wood fiber crushing. Also, for the small rear trigger guard screw that threads directly into the trigger group i only use 15 in-lb torque and a bit of blue LocTite.
For the barrel pivot tension I really don't think that an actual torque spec is useful, simply "adjust by feel".

[AJK 547]

Again, many thanks Ed (and everyone else) on helping this 'Newbie' to airguns get a handle on these rifles... Great info. and wonderful Forum!  I'll be purchasing the R9 in .177 format soon and we'll see if I can get the 'consistent' precision I want out of it...  hopefully I can!

I know this is an airgun site, but FWIW, I'm a stickler on accurate rifles, and one of my most prized rimfires is a mint 40X Sporter/Repeater that I do use for practice/enjoyment.  It's a true 0's rifle @ 25yds., < 0.25" CTC @ 50 yds. and an honest 0.6" CTC rifle at 100yds. (conditions permitting).






100 yds. (Lapua Midas+) sub-optimal conditions:




Art 

[Yak54]

I also would like to say THANKS to Ed for his contributions.  As a new owner of an R9 I benefit from his years of accumulated wisdom with this rifle which he so willingly shares with us. 

[nced]

Again, many thanks Ed (and everyone else) on helping this 'Newbie' to airguns get a handle on these rifles... Great info. and wonderful Forum!  I'll be purchasing the R9 in .177 format soon and we'll see if I can get the 'consistent' precision I want out of it...  hopefully I can!

I know this is an airgun site, but FWIW, I'm a stickler on accurate rifles, and one of my most prized rimfires is a mint 40X Sporter/Repeater that I do use for practice/enjoyment.  It's a true 0's rifle @ 25yds., < 0.25" CTC @ 50 yds. and an honest 0.6" CTC rifle at 100yds. (conditions permitting).






100 yds. (Lapua Midas+) sub-optimal conditions:




Art 

A bit of caution when trying to make an analogy between an airgun shooting pellets and a rimfire shooting bullets! For one thing, the BC of a 40 grain rimfire bullet ranges from about .145 to .190. On the other hand the BC of pellets is AWFUL! For the 8.44 JSB and AA's and they can range from an lowly 0.018 to a high 0.038 depending on the individual barrel and velocity being shot.

This means that the pellets get blown around a lot so it's much harder to shoot pellets accurately than bullets. Shooting a springer (especially) can involve a rather steep "learning curve" (well, for me it does) and if a shooter can shoot a recoiling piston gun accurately, he can shoot most any powder burner accurately!

Funny thing is that since I got into adult airguns a few decades ago I don't believe I've shot my rimfire two dozen times. I found that my .177 R9 is a better "squirrel getter" than my rimfire ever was and I really prefer "boomless" shooting anyway. I've hunted squirrels with my brother at my uncles farm and we both prefer our R9s. I wasn't with him but my brother took a limit of squirrels from one walnut three at the farm. He was shooting from the edge of the woods and the walnut tree was 30 yards in the mowed field. As the story was told me the squirrels were sniped one at a time from the tree and left where they fell till they were gathered together after the shooting. My brother mentioned that is was a bit funny to see the very last squirrel realize the he was the only one left still cutting the nuts, then it scrambled down the tree and "high tailed" it to the woods!

Normally, after shooting a squirrel it would be field dressed on the spot to be put in a large zip loc bag with ice that's carried for that purpose. That cools the squirrels quickly, plus leaves the "fleas and critters" in the woods instead of on the body. When hunting with my brother and we were quietly field dressing a couple squirrels I've watched my brother snipe a squirrel that came out of hiding while a squirrel was being field dressed.

When I lived in WV and hunted with my brother we would normally stalk about 50 yards apart. When I heard the shot of my brother's R9 at that distance it sounded like stepping on a twig and snapping it. LOL....the sound of the pellet cracking the squirrel noggin sounded louder than the R9 being shot!

[Yak54]

When reading the post from Ed about "barrel pivot tension", I decided to check my R9 to compare it to his description.  Well it was much tighter than Ed  likes it to be, so I took a minute and adjusted mine to be more like his description,  Also checked the rest of the screws on the stock and trigger guard and was shocked to find them all very loose.  So I cleaned the threads with alcohol and put a bit of blue locktite on them and snugged them up. Seems like I just heard a song a few days ago about "You've Got to Check Your Screws",  LOL. Hopefully I will get to do some shooting Wed. if the weather cooperates. 

[Tomcat]

Good post everyone!  Some very good reading here.  Thanks for sharing.

[AJK 547]

Please bear with me on a few other questions gentlemen ...   ...  on the R9, I seem to be leaning towards a good/solid 1-piece mount/ring setup vs. standard 2-piece. 

1) Am I going in the right direction on mount selection (1-piece)?  Also, any recommendations as to mount and ring height?

2) I heard you have to be careful torqueing down the R9 mount screws as to not 'compress' the thin-walled spring tube...  Is this true?

3) Finally, what torque range do you use on the mount screws for your R9's?

Hope you guys can hang with me asking all these questions!  I'm lookin' forward to getting the R9, but I'm a person who tries to do his homework ahead of time...

Art

[grauhanen]

A one-piece mount is the better choice on a springer.  Most likely a medium height mount will be appropriate -- unless you are mounting a scope with a wide objective lens.  I don't think you need to worry about compressing the compression tube or receiver of the R9.  You would strip the aluminum screws on the mount before compressing the steel tube.  The recommended torque for the horizontal screws on the scope mount is 35 inch pounds.  Be careful with the scope ring screws as you don't want to over-tighten them and risk compressing the scope tube.

[nced]

Please bear with me on a few other questions gentlemen ( ) ...  on the R9, I seem to be leaning towards a good/solid 1-piece mount/ring setup vs. standard 2-piece. any recommendations as to ring height

1) Am I going in the right direction on mount selection (1-piece)?  Also, any recommendations as to ring height?

2) I heard you have to be careful torqueing down the R9 mount screws as to not 'compress' the thin-walled spring tube...  Is this true?

3) Finally, what torque range do you use on the mount screws for your R9's?

Hope you guys can hang with me asking all these questions!  I'm lookin' forward to getting the R9, but I'm a person who tries to do his homework ahead of time...

Art

Am I going in the right direction on mount selection (1-piece)?
I like a one piece scope mount but I'm currently using a cheap high two piece 30mm UTG mount with my 3-12x44 Optisan Viper scope and it's working great.

any recommendations as to ring height
As with most things airgun....it all depends on it's use. I like a scope as close to the receiver as possible, however a higher scope mount is more "agreeable" with the further range targets due to the trajectory of the pellet, however the higher mount causes the pellet to rise to the line of sight a greater amount per yard. This make close range target holdover accuracy more precise. Also, the scope chosen will also dictate the height of the rings being used since the scope bell still needs to clear the receiver, perhaps even needing space for the lens cover.

 I heard you have to be careful torqueing down the R9 mount screws as to not 'compress' the thin-walled spring tube...  Is this true?
LOL....I read that claim decades ago and still don't believe it! I've torqued "clamp plate style" and "BKL auto-centering style" mounts to destruction and never had any R9 receiver issues! Both the UTG "clamp plate style" mounts and the "BKL auto centering style" mounts specify 35 in-lbs MAX of base screw torque and this amount of torque won't deform a R9 receiver at all!......

Finally, what torque range do you use on the mount screws for your R9's
for the UTG style mounts with 4 screws per ring cap I follow this.........
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

I've found however that using the 2 piece "BKL auto centering mount" with two narrow top straps per ring and the relatively large #8-32 screws on each end of the strap......15 in-lbs of screw torque can deform a scope tube. Here are a couple pics of BKL "deformation".
10 in-lbs torque with my 13fpe R9 caused the scope to slip in the 1" BKL 2 piece mount......
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

However 15 in-lbs of screw torque with the BKL two piece mount deformed the scope tubes..........
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
You can see the tell-tale "double strap" marks. Here is my cheap Center Point scope that's currently mounted in a UTG one piece mount on a Remington Express.
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
You can see the "tell tale" damage of a previous installation in BKL two piece mounts with the ring caps torqued to 15 in-lbs.

Anywhoo......if I use a BKL mount I always line the rings with cloth electrical friction tape and only torque the top strap screws to 12 in-lbs. If I'm using UTG type mounts they already have "tape" in the rings so I also use 12 in-lbs torque for those caps. Here's a pic of some UTG mounts on an R9 receiver tube.......
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
As you can see....where the "claws" of the clamp plates are grabbing the scope dovetails the receiver metal is practically a solid bridge. Would take a LOT of pressure to deform the receiver.

[AJK 547]

Ed (and everyone else!) - thanks so much for taking the time for sharing your experiences and knowledge!  It truly is appreciated with the detailed/informed responses!

Again, I've only got into air rifles (Stoeger X20S and Ruger A H) in the last 3 months learned quite a bit about 'springers', scope creep, cheap combo package mounts, pellet selection, ambient temp. issues with regards to 'consistency' in sub-zero winter conditions., scope (Bushnell Banner) being destroyed in 700 rnds. on the Ruger A H, 'artillery hold' technique, etc. etc.  I didn't get frustrated at all, but looked at these issues as a challenge to correct in future purchases/knowledge...

With everyone's gracious help, this newbie is moving forward on the right path to acquiring a consistently accurate 'springer' that when I pick it up for some paper punching or field work, I have complete confidence in the equipment.  That is my simple goal...

Art   

 

[Pitchfire]

I haven't read through all the responses but wanted to add one perspective. For the range and PBR "window" you are looking at shooting, you will be hard pressed to get even the lightest fastest .177 to cooperate. Getting the pellet to come up to range at 10 yards and then hold flat for 25 additional yards wont even happen with a very low mounted 33mm scope or factory HW95 iron sights shooting the FTT. The line of sight will sit too high above the bore and it wont parallel the path of the bore that tight for that long that close in in all likelihood (could have a barrel bend that allows it I suppose).

For a frame of reference I have a 33mm Leupold efr mounted almost touching the tube and I can sight in to stay in a .25" window as close as 13.2 yards and it holds within that .25" window out to 30.7 yards (zero'ed @ 16 & 28 yards). Granted I am shooting a JSB heavy @ 830fps but if I plug in the FTT @ 913fps I actually move out to 14.1-32.8 yards (zero's @ 17 & 30). The adj. obj. on the bell of my scope does make it thicker and therefore sits about 1mm higher than it could, another scope could shave a slight amount off the difference (like .5mm, but that would be statistically irrelevant, barely adding much at all). That said, if the .177 can maybe barely do it, the .20 and .22 aren't going to come close to hitting those trajectories that close and holding that flat for that long.

I don't think most folks (perhaps even inside the industry) realize how much small game near range shooting is effected by sight height. Getting the projectile up to the line of sight at 10 yards is a very big task that most firearms cannot easily accommodate. Let alone providing a usably flat trajectory after that.

But if a fast .177 with reasonably low sights cannot do what needs done (in strict terms of trajectory), it is time to switch to rimfire.

[AJK 547]

Thanks for your thoughtful response Pitchfire. 

As you mentioned, my 'window' of 10 - 35yds. (for most of my field work in a dense forest) leads me to as 'flat' a trajectory as possible for the pellet.  When I checked the BC on the .177 (and reviewed Ed's POI target for varying distances), I knew I would have to do a standard Hold over/under at calc'd distances. 

Yesterday, I put an order in for a Beeman R9 (.177 format) and will mount an inexpensive Center Point 4-16X40 AO (UTG 1-piece mount) and use this setup for initial break-in in the rifle.

FWIW.....what started me off on all this was a 'Protected wildlife species' (Hairy Woodpecker) that was creating a mess of a newly remodeled cedar lake home...  To make a long story short, I went through all the channels with my DNR Wildlife Services, collected all the damage (~$1,000) pics necessary, went through 4 levels of WS review and after 2 months I was thankfully granted a permit to 'take' the little booger.  I know I'm nutz, but I wanted to do things right!
 
I couldn't use one of my .22LR Sporters do to the nature of the shot that needed to be taken with neighbors nearby, so I purchased the only air gun available (Stoeger X20S) from a local hdwe store and worked an entire day on trying to get the thing to sight in acceptable...  Never could print 1" groups @ 20yds. with any consistency in sub-zero temps.  All the while, the woodpecker was creating more $$$$ damage, and my wife is going crazy.

With my wife having a heart attack with the damage being created, I decided to setup to take the shot (kneeling) in 2 ft. of snow, sub-zero temps, 45 Deg. up angle at (~ 20yds.) in a snow storm that was going on and pick him off the cedar fascia at the top of the roof line (without putting another hole in the home!)...



'the little booger' was having a field day at the top of the roof peak facia, I set up on the left near the base of the  large trees:





Conditions at the time:





One single LUCKY shot dropped the little booger 'cleanly'.  I vowed at that point I'd get a decent air rifle, and that it would be up to the task going forward...

Hopefully, this new R9 will meet my needs.

That's the honest story that leads me to where I'm at with air guns.

Art 

[grauhanen]

An excellent choice.

[Booger]

Thanks for your thoughtful response Pitchfire. 

As you mentioned, my 'window' of 10 - 35yds. (for most of my field work in a dense forest) leads me to as 'flat' a trajectory as possible for the pellet.  When I checked the BC on the .177 (and reviewed Ed's POI target for varying distances), I knew I would have to do a standard Hold over/under at calc'd distances. 

Yesterday, I put an order in for a Beeman R9 (.177 format) and will mount an inexpensive Center Point 4-16X40 AO (UTG 1-piece mount) and use this setup for initial break-in in the rifle.

FWIW.....what started me off on all this was a 'Protected wildlife species' (Hairy Woodpecker) that was creating a mess of a newly remodeled cedar lake home...  To make a long story short, I went through all the channels with my DNR Wildlife Services, collected all the damage (~$1,000) pics necessary, went through 4 levels of WS review and after 2 months I was thankfully granted a permit to 'take' the little bugger.  I know I'm nutz, but I wanted to do things right!
 
I couldn't use one of my .22LR Sporters do to the nature of the shot that needed to be taken with neighbors nearby, so I purchased the only air gun available (Stoeger X20S) from a local hdwe store and worked an entire day on trying to get the thing to sight in acceptable...  Never could print 1" groups @ 20yds. with any consistency in sub-zero temps.  All the while, the woodpecker was creating more $$$$ damage, and my wife is going crazy.

With my wife having a heart attack with the damage being created, I decided to setup to take the shot (kneeling) in 2 ft. of snow, sub-zero temps, 45 Deg. up angle at (~ 20yds.) in a snow storm that was going on and pick him off the cedar fascia at the top of the roof line (without putting another hole in the home)...



'the little bugger' was having a field day at the top of the roof peak facia, I set up on the left near the base of the  large trees:





Conditions at the time:





One single LUCKY shot dropped the little bugger 'cleanly'.  I vowed at that point I'd get a decent air rifle after that would be up to the task from that time forward...

Hopefully, this new R9 will meet my needs.

That's the honest story that leads me to where I'm at with air guns.

Art 

Great choice. There are 5 rifles I would consider TX200, R1, R11 (same as an R9 but nicer stock & shroud), FWB Sport, & HW97K. Of all the rifles my R11 is the most accurate, & after 2000 shots she is almost like a tuned rifle.

Good Luck & Happy Hunting.
When I make it to the Happy Hunting Grounds I want another R11.

Edit: it is Booger not bugger LOL

[palonej]

Great story Art!!
Excellent choice in caliber and rifle!!!
I was out with my 98......R9 action in different dress....doing some target shooting when a not so smart fly landed on my target.
Loaded the rifle with JSB 8.4 and literally took his wings off!!
You are going to love this rifle bro!!
Pellets that mine likes.....JSB 7.87, 8.4 and 10.3 all in 4.52 head....H&N Field Target Trophy in 4.51 head.
CPLs and Barracuda Match.
Good luck and have fun!!

[nced]

I've re-thought my position concerning using the UTG one piece mount vs the BKL one piece mount if using a relatively heavy 30mm tube scope on my recoiling R9.

I noticed that the stop pin on the UTG one piece mount had deformed the stop pin hole in the R9 receiver actually pushing the metal at the rear edge of the stop pin hole INWARD to the inside of the receiver! LOL....I had to pry the end plug from the receiver since the raised bulge was retaining it a bit! After prying the end plug out the protruding upset metal had to be filed just so I could remove the spring kit! I'm thinking that the heavy 30mm tube Viper scope caused this even though the (3) base screws were torqued to the recommended max torque of 35 in/lbs.

Even though I prefer the wider top strap design of the UTG mounts with 4 smaller screws per strap, I do believe that the (6) base screws of the BKL one piece mount without a stop pin may be of benefit for heavy scope mounting so the UTG one piece mount was replaced with the BKL one piece mount......and after the switch I had to set up the scope wheel all over again! 
Viper scope in one piece BKL high 30mm mount.......
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

Anywhoo.....I filed away the deformed metal inside the receiver tube just so I could remove the spring kit, then the receiver tube was taken to my work bench for a re-hone and straightening using the oiled wet-or-dry on my PVC mandrel. After relubing and reassembling all is shooting well again and the wider top straps (relative to the two piece BKL mounts) seem to be holding the Viper with 15 in/lbs torque on the two top strap screws without damaging the scope tube! LOL....after the test I still lined the rings with electrical friction tape "just in case"! 

[chuckinohio]

  Ed

  Is there anything that you HAVEN'T fiddled with on an R9 - HW95?

  There should be an official airgun forum badge made for you, 'I'm that R9 guy' or the likes......


   

[palonej]

Maybe.......The R9 Answer Man???

[AJK 547]

Gentlemen... If you were to purchase just one mount for the R9 which one would you go for??? 

I have new UTG 1-piece mounts in Med. and High profile but Ed's scope and mount 'creep' might just sway me towards the Beeman 5040 (Med.) and Beeman 5036 (High) coupled with a Beeman BN-5092 Scope Stop...

I recently mounted the UTG 1-piece on the X20S but also found it deformed the stop pin hole in the recvr. soooooo, I don't want this to happen on the R9.  Seems the stop pins in the Beeman mounts are larger dia. and displace the energy over a larger surface area IMHO.

Any suggestions?

Art