SUB MOA at 100 yards

[Bwalton]

Stay tuned, that's all I will say, and if you want to see it in person fly on out, we can do some gs hunting on the side....Yes I will give it a shot. As you can see on my utube I have no problem posting groups. But I fail to see other utube groups. I will start with the 50, then move to the 100... Maybe in the next month or so.

[William]

Ya....I guess I build all kinds of stuff.

Here is kind of a neat 5 axis robotic arm I built for a local company to load and unload a second operation CNC horizontal slotting machine (made that, too).  It will hold .0005" all day (and night).....it has to load pins into a collet for slotting.  The collet opening is about .0025" bigger than the pin.  It doesn't have any problem. 



Mike

Love the joystick front rest 
Really nice work, your bench guns seem like they are about as smooth as butter, loading and cocking. The sealed roller bearing is one of the best features I have seen!

William

[michaelthomas]

Thanks...I forgot about that rest.  I never really got used to it.  It was great for gross adjustments and moving from target to target.....but it was tougher and ultimately slower than I liked for the small precision moves on wind changes. 

Baxter.....I'm driving out to Open Grove for the next match on March 8th.  You should come out and shoot with us since it's in your backyard.  Your .22 should be OK for the Open class.....it might be a little higher in power, but I don't think anyone will care.   Joe has wind flags you can use, and I'm sure we could come up with anything else you might need (Rest, Bags).  It's a good time.

25 shots at 25m is a card.  A person only needs to hold .304" center to center to shoot a perfect 250 card.....and that's well above the 1MOA challenge.  There have been a few 250's shot there in the morning, but none that I'm aware of in the afternoon.  If you don't feel like shooting the match.....come down on Saturday for practice.  I will gladly be your witness for the 50 yard...5 5shot groups under a dime.  I would like to meet you in person....maybe we could get lunch or something.

Mike

[TheBullsEye]

i was doing some shooting today and if i ever get a nice calm day im almost positive i could group 1" at one hundred yards that dang wind is just so nasty where i shoot it make it hard to predict

[Gertrude]

wow,
It's interesting to see how context of statements and figures of speech, are sometimes used outside of their intent, to make points or arguments either valid or not.

 I'm not chiming in here to defend either side, or any particular claims... and I am certainly not of the skill level to compete in serious competition... but I do admire and aspire to learn from those who do.

 I think comparing hunting to competitive bench rest is apples to oranges.
 Sure, both disciplines require some common considerations and disciplines. Both can share some common challenges. Both are seeking the best possible consistency and accuracy, and both have similarities in their respective ultimate goals.
 That being, to hit what you are aiming at. Again and again.
 That's what makes it fun. That's what keeps us wanting to improve "Our Game".

 I think that whatever particular rifle a person chooses to shoot, is less important,... than if it effectively serves their purposes well, and they are satisfied with what they can do with it.

 Sometimes that can even be outside of what the popular beliefs or are.

case in point-
 how often do we see a recommendation to a newby who is asking what rifle should he get for XYZ purpose,...
 and he is told that a MM tuned Chinese clone, will spank the pants off of a bone stock popular European model that it was copied from.

I'm not really sure if there is a point that I am trying to make here,... other than if someone is happy with what they use to effectively accomplish their goals, then why should anyone poo-poo on their parade.

If we are happy with the performance of our chosen tools and they serve us well for our intended purpose, then it should not matter whether it is a tool popular among the competing class, or the sporting class.

 If it does what we need it to do, to a level of acceptable performance for our needs, then who's to say it is sub-par.

We all have some pride in what we enjoy and shoot, and we all have some pride in the accomplishments we achieve.
 that's what it's really all about, right ?, 
 To enjoy the sport, (and hopefully the sometimes surprising results), that we might not expect out of ourselves, and/or our equipment.

ok,... I'm done rambling now.

Cheers.



 

[michaelthomas]

I'm not sure who is comparing benchrest to hunting.  We're comparing MOA to MOA.  Generally speaking.....if you can shoot MOA consistently with a hunting rifle, doing it from a bench should not prove any more challenging.

Anyway.....I was thinking about this for a little bit, and here is what I came up with.  I know that my bench rifles will shoot 25 shots indoors with an outside to outside measurement of .315 or less......and that computes to about .155" ctc if you figure a .177 prints a .160 visible hole on good paper.  That sort of grouping will yield you a 750 with 45-55x's.

I also know that my outdoor 50m 5 5 shot groups averaged .319" ctc on a very calm day.....so that is roughly double what I see at 25 indoor.  It seems reasonable that a 100yard 25 shot group should be about .650 ish with no wind influence from one of my rifles.

That leaves a whopping .350" left for wind deflection (roughly) to stay within the 1 MOA parameter at 100y.  If we figure a .22 shooting JSB Heavies at 940fps......that means it will take a mere 1/2mph wind velocity change over any of the 4 subsequent shots to spoil your 5 shot group.  You would, at least, need knowledge of the 1/2 mph change to be able to compensate for the drift to save it.

I know that I cannot detect a 1/2mph wind change with my flags or my wind velocity indicator that I use for benchrest at 25m.

That seems like very long odds to me.....but maybe not impossible.  Bullets would be a whole different game.

Mike

[Rocker1]

Front row Watching, with  Mt Dew and Cracker Jacks.  David

[K.O.]

I just wish that even on the cheaper rifles the transfer port  was in the breech thus allowing indexing the barrels... and thus getting just a little closer to the equipment being up to the challenge...

[Sfttailrdr46]

  I wish for world peace but we all know that's not going to happen any time soon. Putting that aside the intent is for this was to be a "Friendly Competition".This whole thing evolved from a can it be done statement to a lets give it a try friendly competition.  In the spirit of that intent and " Rocker 1 " watching from the front row with chips and dip lets observe the rules #2 & #13. 

I was just thinking that if I had my old Remington 513T and could convert it to a .22 cal spring pellet rifle that rig would be perfect for this application there were many occasions when my targets had to be scored with a bullet gauge

[Bwalton]

I'm not sure who is comparing benchrest to hunting.  We're comparing MOA to MOA.  Generally speaking.....if you can shoot MOA consistently with a hunting rifle, doing it from a bench should not prove any more challenging.

Anyway.....I was thinking about this for a little bit, and here is what I came up with.  I know that my bench rifles will shoot 25 shots indoors with an outside to outside measurement of .315 or less......and that computes to about .155" ctc if you figure a .177 prints a .160 visible hole on good paper.  That sort of grouping will yield you a 750 with 45-55x's.

I also know that my outdoor 50m 5 5 shot groups averaged .319" ctc on a very calm day.....so that is roughly double what I see at 25 indoor.  It seems reasonable that a 100yard 25 shot group should be about .650 ish with no wind influence from one of my rifles.

That leaves a whopping .350" left for wind deflection (roughly) to stay within the 1 MOA parameter at 100y.  If we figure a .22 shooting JSB Heavies at 940fps......that means it will take a mere 1/2mph wind velocity change over any of the 4 subsequent shots to spoil your 5 shot group.  You would, at least, need knowledge of the 1/2 mph change to be able to compensate for the drift to save it.

I know that I cannot detect a 1/2mph wind change with my flags or my wind velocity indicator that I use for benchrest at 25m.

That seems like very long odds to me.....but maybe not impossible.  Bullets would be a whole different game.

Mike

What exactly do you think I am doing? putting the cross hairs in the center and pulling the trigger? No in the video my aim point was at a different spot every shot. When im out with my friends hunting and im taking a long distance shot I do not even shoot until the wind direction is confirmed. I thought that this would be a fun thing to do for everyone but I see that it is turning into something else.....and that .650 number that you came up with for a 100yards I guess means nothing seeing that was the exact number of my 4 shot group in my video. If you had a barrel that you would say is very accurate a TJ barrel or LW what causes the pellet to shoot tight groups? Is it the cost of the gun? or would it be the looks? or would it be the barrel, proper pellets, air, a low ES, and a good shooter? is there any thing else that you need or am I missing some thing? Oh and a good scope....once the pellet is inside the barrel what pushes them out? If I put one of your barrels on my gun using the same ES using the same pellets, and scope, and had the same skills, what would change?

[michaelthomas]

Baxter,

I see that you think I am picking on you.....and I am sorry that I made you feel that way.  It was not at all my intent.  If you could talk with me about this face to face you would be able to pick up on my body language, tone, and other visual cues that are not apparent in text.....and you would not feel the same.  Again, I'm sorry.  My point is that I don't think I am capable of 25 sub MOA shots in a row at 100y outdoors in conditions.

I enjoy analysis of things, and I'm certain that my love of analysis has made me a better shooter.  I am, also,  absolutely certain that the world is full of people with greater shooting abilities than my own......some may be competitors, and some may not.  That much is irrelevant.  As far as guns go, I think it is readily apparent from users across the country that my rifles are certainly (at least)  competitive with any pellet rifle available.

The numbers that I came up with were in no way related to you or your rifle.  They are real world numbers that I believe my own rifle could hold for 25 shots without any wind influence (indoors).  My 25y numbers are rock solid and repeatable for me and my rifle indoors.  The rest is mostly just extrapolation, since I almost never shoot at any other distance.  But I think it is fair for me to say that my own rifle will not shoot any better than .650" on average for 25 shots at 100y indoors.....and that may possibly be generous.  If I were to think in terms of less shots.....like 5, then the numbers would be much smaller.  Since the whole challenge idea is 25 shots.....25 seemed fitting to me.

I really have no idea what you are doing when shooting.  I have no way of understanding that unless you convey it to me.  I did assume that you must be compensating for wind, however..... I have no idea what method you use to determine wind velocity, angle, and such in the field with no instruments.  I would rate my own ability to judge wind with natural indicators to put me in a range of about 5mph. 

My own experience on a 25m range is this......without wind flags, my scores are always much lower than with wind flags.....no matter what the conditions may seem like.   If you have developed an accurate way of determining wind velocity, etc. using only natural indicators (grass, trees, etc).....believe me, I want to spend some time with you.  That sort of information would be extremely beneficial.

Again.....if I offended you, it was not intentional......and I apologize.

Mike

[nervoustrigger]

Baxter for what it's worth, as an outsider looking in, I did not get the sense that Michael was picking on you.  I think he was just illustrating how extraordinarily difficult it is to coax pellets into a tight group at 100 yards with any degree of repeatability where wind is in any way a factor.  A variation of 1mph pretty much obliterates 1 MoA.

Your marksmanship is impressive to me.  But do I think you can put together 1 MoA at 100 yards outdoors for 5 consecutive groups?  I don't.  I would be super impressed if you managed to do it for 2 of the 5 groups.  I'm rooting for you!

[Bwalton]

No worries Mike, we are two different shooters, I am a Hunter do in the field there is no wind flags, much like military snipers, you have to be able to adjust on the fly. One note is that at Joes place it is very different, it is surrounded by rows of trees, cause much turbulence, and not a natural wind flow. That's why the flags there will be doing something different all the way to the target. I am by no means an expert I just study and practice the wind conditions. If you were to practice with no flags it would be insane at Joes place. The wind can change every minute. So you have to try and wait for your wind fiction.

[Bwalton]

No worries Mike, we are two different shooters, I am a Hunter so in the field there is no wind flags, much like military snipers, you have to be able to adjust on the fly. One note is that at Joes place it is very different, it is surrounded by rows of trees, cause much turbulence, and not a natural wind flow. That's why the flags there will be doing something different all the way to the target. I am by no means an expert I just study and practice the wind conditions. If you were to practice with no flags it would be insane at Joes place. The wind can change every minute. So you have to try and wait for your wind shot

[rsterne]

It was not my intention to pick on anyone.... I'm with Mike on this, 100%.... While the (best) airguns are certainly capable of sub MOA groups at 100 yards, indoors, it only takes 1 mph or less of wind to spoil a group.... The old Beaufort Scale describes the effects of wind in this way....

Beaufort 0: Calm, smoke rises vertically.... Wind speed < 0.7 mph
Beaufort 1: Smoke drift indicates wind direction, leaves and wind vanes are stationary.... Wind speed 0.7 - 3.4 mph
Beaufort 2: Wind felt on exposed skin, leaves rustle, wind vanes begin to move.... Wind speed 3.4 - 7.4 mph

Note that Mike shows why just 1/2 mph of wind can spoil a MOA group at 100 yards when shooting pellets.... Then note that there is NO visible indication for that little wind (even though the best wind vanes will now respond at < 3.4 mph, they won't at < 1 mph).... Then multiply the likelihood of that happening by 25 shots.... Can it be done?.... Yes.... I think what Mike and I are trying to say is that you can't compensate consistently for something you don't know is there.... which injects a large portion of luck into the equation if you are outside....

On the other hand, in any competition, the more you practice, the luckier you get !!!

Bob

[michaelthomas]

Bob......you do a nice job of nutshelling ideas.   

Mike

[palonej]

When Bob posts even knuckle heads like me can understand.....most of the time!
I love shooting at further distances.
I shoot mid powered springers and have ~ 125 yards to play with.
This target was shot at 80 yards.
First 5 shots were ranging shots then I put a bunch into the center group.
Pretty sure it was 10 or 11 shots.
Very little wind if any.
6" Birchwood Casey target.
Add 20 more yards??? Much tougher!!
I'm pretty sure that is the best I can do with my rifles....shot that target with the 97.
Used to do better with the 56, but that thing just falls apart constantly!!
I'd love to give it a try with Mr Thomas' magical inflatable tho!!!

[grauhanen]

Without aids such as flags or good anemometers it is very difficult to shoot sub MOA at 100 yards with a .22LR; it's even more difficult to do repeatedly.  It is extraordinarily difficult to do with pellets.  If the wind is slight enough to be undetectable without aids, it is virtually impossible to shoot pellets sub MOA at 100 yards repeatedly.  Of course, virtually impossible is not exactly the same as completely and utterly impossible -- but it's awfully close.

[Sfttailrdr46]

  That's why even those that " Just Hunt " still practice even when not hunting. I shoot almost every day sometimes only 50 to 100 sometimes 2 to 3 hundred shots. It depends on my mood and which rifle I am shooting at the time 

[Slavia]

I agree with Bob that you can't "compensate consistently for something you don't know is there", and I would take it a step further from perception to include prediction.  At my range there is always wind - sometimes the imperceptible gusts Bob mentioned, and sometimes so strong it moves me and the gun.  It isn't always from the same direction or of the same velocity. It doesn't always enter or leave the range in the same place.  For sure it will change during my shooting session.  Sometimes it changes between shots.  Sometimes right when I pull the trigger (and before the pellet reaches the target).  On a good day I can read it, and on a bad day it's just plain frustrating.

For several years now I have used a modified Crosman G1 with a 3-9X32AO mildot scope and 10.5 grain .177 Ultramags on a 10" pot lid at 100 yards.  I hit about 80%.  (In a dead calm it will do about a 5" group at that range.)  I understand I would get more precision from a better gun, likely a PCP, and in a larger caliber.  Still, this setup has taught me several things.  One of them is about who the "competition" is.  The answer is "myself," not the person sitting at the next bench.  From that perspective I'm winning, because I'm getting better.  (I started out hitting a 55 gallon drum lid about 10% of the time.)  Another lesson learned relates to which mods will make a difference and which won't.  I also know more about the wind.  Not just grass blowing, but where it's moving and where it's not.  Puffs of dust and leaf deflection from pellet impact.  Not just leaves rustling, but from which grove of trees, and if it's a "rustle" or a "roar" (and not just a flock of birds).

Getting back to the original question - the gun is important, but more so the shooter.  Especially at 100 yards, where the rules change a bit.  $2500 is a decent budget.  My suggestion would be to take one of the guns you already have and try it out.  You'll probably get a better sense of your own environmental conditions and the gun features you'll need to deal with it.