Condor SS shot string questions

[awahl]

I recently installed a heavy hammer and slap mod, as well as a Talon Tunes quick change tophat in my Condor SS.  Since the change, my shot strings have no curve upward to begin with.  They begin decreasing with every shot.  With the factory tophat, I saw a rise and fall of the numbers.  With the TTQCT it is a gentle downward slope, but I think that there should be some upward to begin with.  Any thoughts here?  Later today, I can post some numbers if you think it would help out.  Accuracy over the string remains good though.

[LDP]

I doubt the quick change top hat is to blame. I would guess the heavy hammer is causing the decreasing shot string due to the extra force and weight increasing the dwell time of the valve.

[awahl]

Sounds reasonable enough, but I did chrony the gun in the time between the changes, and all was well before the tophat change and after the heavy hammer.  I do get the same downward trend with both restrictors, as well as no restrictor.  I am running it with a high preset on the power wheel though.  Before that i was using the power wheel down around 2.  I am now up to around 12.  I am using a modified restrictor that is a little larger than the middle one.  My numbers were just too slow with the medium restrictor.  In its current configuration I am getting right around 900 fps with JSBs.  With no resrictor it begins at about 1080 with JSB's.  Thanks for any thoughts.

[Eyerelief]

Hi, I am new here, but definitely not new to the Condor (.177, 22, 25 caliber).  I don't know if this is the source of your problem but one thing to consider.  Tony surface polishes his valves for a more efficient and consistent response from hammer energy.   I noticed the same thing when I switched.  I could only figure resistance from the high pressure in the tank coupled with "traction" if you will of the rough machined surface of the stock valve could not be overcome by the hammer, either hammer.  I also noticed that my velocities, though falling with each shot, do so more consistently than they did with the stock valve.  I ultimately figured that the additional hammer weight wasn't needed, but the slap mod made it worth the investment anyway.

[LDP]

Sounds reasonable enough, but I did chrony the gun in the time between the changes, and all was well before the tophat change and after the heavy hammer.  I do get the same downward trend with both restrictors, as well as no restrictor.  I am running it with a high preset on the power wheel though. Before that i was using the power wheel down around 2.  I am now up to around 12.  I am using a modified restrictor that is a little larger than the middle one.  My numbers were just too slow with the medium restrictor.  In its current configuration I am getting right around 900 fps with JSBs.  With no resrictor it begins at about 1080 with JSB's.  Thanks for any thoughts.

Theres the answer. You are using allot more pre load on the HS. In order to get a bell curve you will need to either lower the HS pre load or fill to a higher PSI. What are you filling to?

[454 Big Block Chevy]

ok, i own a .25 Condor SS, completely tuned and adjusted.  Bear with me if you will, and just follow allong.  This is how MY condor is setup, you may want to mimic it and see what you get.

Quick Change top hat with the large restrictor in. 
heavy hammer.
 small o ring behind top hat. 
Fill to 3100 PSI
Power wheel set on 6 on slide, and - between 16 and 1 on the wheel (assuming this is Zero setting)

shooting 31.02 Baracudas, i get 905 FPS avg.  There is a slight bell curve, and i get roughly 30 shots before FPS drops more than 20 FPS from start.  the power wheel can be adjusted up and down from this point to give more power.  The o ring behind the top hat makes all the difference.  it settles the valve down, and makes it more efficient and consistant.  if you have any questions answer!

[ToRmEnToR]

I was going to just suggest the o ring mod.. I believe it's your heavy hammer. Mine has slight bell, but I don't have heavy hammer, or spring.. Do have ttth..

[LDP]

The o-ring mod is not a bad idea but the reason it helps create a bell curve and increase shot count is because its limiting the valve. That mod does the exact same thing as changing the top hat gap and or adjusting the HS. The o-ring might also shorten the dwell time because it will have a rebound effect from being smashed by the top hat. So yes the o-ring will lower the fps. If you do not want to use an o-ring or you still dont have a bell curve then you still need to lower HS pre load, increase the fill you use or both to get the propper balance for the valve. For what its worth my condor never had a bell curve no matter how i adjusted it but the shot string was very flat and was very similar to a regulated string so i never worried about it much.

[awahl]

Thanks for all of the feedback you have provided.  It is truly appreciated.  I am going to jot down some numbers that I currently have, and run some pellets down with a couple of different configurations suggested. 

Basically, with no restrictor in the QCTH I get 1080 or so with JSB's.  With the large restrictor I got about 860.  With the smallest one, I got 760.  Considering I figured that I would never really want the 760 option, I drilled it out to be a little bigger than the larger restrictor.  I get about 910-920 or so with it on average.  Below is a string shot with it at PW 12, 3000 psi fill:
940.4
934.9
933.5
936.8
929.6
966.0
923.9
920.3
916.9
912.2
911.4
911.4
907.9
905.5
904.6
902.7
901.2
895.9
897.2
894.6
882.9
Average over the shots 900+ fps: 921.1

Funny thing I see is that with an o ring behind the tophat, my velocities drop way down to the high 400's.  With the stock tophat, I was using the same o ring and getting good velocities.  Attached is an average string I was getting pre-qcth.

On another note, I hit a water bottle today at 201 yards lasered.  Took 4 shots to hit it the first time, and 10 shots to get it the second.  I had to turn the magnification down to 6X and hold over at 9+ dots, and account for a 2+ mil dot cross wind.  Those are the longest shots I have hit yet.  171 was my previous high.  Pretty cool!

[awahl]

OK I shot some more strings yesterday afternoon.  I like the velocity and curve of the factory tophat a lot better than the qcth.  Below are some of the strings.  In the name of saving some money on pellets, I stopped charting those strings that were just way off for me.  I want near 900 fps with Barracudas, and also a good shot curve.  I am also looking for a decent number of shots per fill.  I am a little puzzled at the very low velocities of the qcth with an o ring.  Has anyone seen this before?  I seem to remember one fellow that had numbers similar to these, maybe even lower. 

I am guessing that I will stick with the factory tophat at a low power wheel setting, knowing that I can tune it up whenever I need.  For fun, I really like the QCTH with no restrictor.  I just can't fill my gun that often with the pump.  It is a heck of a punch though.  I shot a can yesterday with barracuda hunter extremes, and almost turned it inside out.  With EunJins I get right about 81 ft/lbs with no restrictor.

Here are the strings.  Hopefully they show up like I expect them to.

[LDP]

That last string looks best and has allot more shots left in the string based on the curve. I would shoot a complete string with that setup and see where it peaks and drops off at. Make any fine tuning adjustments from that point. Post the complete string if you have any questions about adjusting it a little more.

[awahl]

Thanks for taking a look at it.  I appreciate it.  It should look something similar to the one linked above.  It is in the same configuration as it was prior to the qcth.  Here it is again.  These velocities are with JSBs though.  I ill check again with barracudas too.
Andy

[GKU]

I had the same exact problem with the QCTH, I couldn't get it to do 920 fps with Kings. With no restrictor it begins at about 1080 with JSB Kings. With the medium one about 850 max.

I when back to using the OEM one, once I found the correct setting I blue loctite the two grub screws and added a little to the top hat treads also.

I never had a chance to try the QCTH with no restrictor with a nylon spacer and an 1/4” ID x 3/8”OD x 1/16"T O-ring behind it.
I think it may work, you need to play around with the thickness of the nylon spacer.

Also AF had a problem of not installing the breech seals, you might what to check that also.
Without them they resemble your chrony string.

~ GKU
http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27882#p274167

[awahl]

Thanks for the info GKU.  The o ring I used was the same thickness, but a little smaller diameter, 3/16 X 5/16 X 1/16.  It shouldn't really make any difference though.  I do have the ones that you suggested if I decide to try them again.  I also blue loctited the grub screws.

I might try out the no restrictor with an o ring option.  I could probably dial it in OK.  Maybe It would work out OK and I would end up with a more consistent shot string. 

I will also check into the breech seals.  Thanks for the information.  It is appreciated.

[awahl]

At some point yesterday, I thought someone asked about the scope.  In any case, it is a UTG Leapers SWAT 4-16 X 44.  I like it a lot.

[GSu]

I too had the same experience running the 95 gram hammer and TT top hat on my .25 Condor SS.

I'm now able to use the TT top hat with no restrictor and no o-ring but I am using a different hammer weight made from brass.  The total hammer weight is now 71 grams.  I get 25 shots per fill of 2800 psi, PW set at 2 - 12, and shoot the H&N Baracuda's @ 950 fps average.  No change in POI out to 50 yards for the 25 shot string.

If I turn the PW down to 1, I get 750 fps.  Yes it took a lot of air, time, and changing parts back and forth for different combinations.

[awahl]

Thanks to everyone for their feedback on the Condor shot strings.  I finally got a few minutes last night to run a full string of JSB's.  I am pretty happy with the results.  I found that the stock tophat with a o ring behind is producing the velocities that I am looking for.  I am getting an average of 940 fps for 50 ft/lbs over a count of 36 shots within 4% spread.  I can't complain too much about that.  That is a lot of shots.  The string is pretty darn flat, and most shots vary just a few fps.  Actually 24 of those shots (for a stretch through the middle) are within 14 fps. 

I also like to shoot Barracudas or Kodiak Match as well.  They are right about 860 fps.  Next thing I would like to figure out is how to shoot those at the velocities that the JSB's are shooting, or at least just up over 900.  I like the flatter shots that the higher velocity provides.  I kinda enjoy trying to hit things out pretty far (for me at least).  I think that I will have to go back to the TalonTunes tophat to achieve that.