Looking at the .22 Cal Daisy Pneumatic Rifles.

[DavidS]

It is kind of interesting, I have always liked the .22 cal Crosman pumpers, and now that I am into Daisy pumpers, I am quickly moving toward the .22 cal Daisy pumpers.    I guess I just like .22 cal.

As there is not to much info on the .22 cal Daisy pumpers, at least not the 822, 920, and 922, I will attempt to gather some info in this thread for those that may be interested.

While I may be wrong, I believe that a part of the reason that marketing recent .22 cal pumpers has failed for Daisy is the lack of knowledge about these great rifles, that and failing to place them in the big box stores.

We all know that Daisy Pneumatics are all either multi pump, or single pump.   The line started with the Daisy 880, and the powerplant has not been functionally changed since.      That says something for the design.    It did not take long for Daisy to add the 822 to the line which is where the .22 cal Pumpers by Daisy come into play.

In 1972 the Daisy 880 was released.    The 880 is a .177 cal single shot pellet, BB repeater, with a multi pump pneumatic power plant, and the first Daisy Pneumatic.   The 880 is only included here as the source of the powerplant design for the rest.

In 1976 Daisy released the 822, .22 cal single shot, Multi Pump Pneumatic, pellet rifle.    It was rated at 530FPS which from what I have been able to find is what it gets at ten pumps with CPHP's.    The 822 is basically a Daisy 880 with a slightly larger lead for loading pellets, a .22 cal barrel, a little larger transfer port from the valve body to the barrel.

In 1978 Daisy added the 922, replacing the 822.    The 922 is essentially an 822 with a 5 shot clip.   The specs are pretty much the same as the 822 except for having a 5 shot clip.    I will have a bit more to say about these before long.

Also in 1978 Daisy gave us the 920.   The 920 was a 922 with wood stock and wood fore grips.

The 922 and 920 continued until 1989.   As far as I can find the 22X was there replacement.

Next up was the 22X.   The 22X is basically a single shot version of the 920, with the newer style valve and pump tube.

The most recent is the 22SG.   The 22SG is essentially a 22X with a lot of the same changes that were made to the 880 around the same time, changes that were designed to limit power.

If I am missing something or have something wrong please let me know.

[insanehognutt]

Thanks for the info. I would like to have a 920 after reading this 

[DavidS]

Thanks for the info. I would like to have a 920 after reading this 

You and me both .

[StevenG]

Is not the low velocity caused by the higher weight of .22 pellets another issue that might impede their sales? Low velocity is not only a marketing problem, but it also has other issues. From the outside looking in, the 880 powerplant as it is sold does not make enough FPE to be worth it as a .22. Where is the market for a sub 10fpe 22?

Sure mods can improve this, but 99% of these guns are never going to be modded.

The 880 is rated at 715 fps at 10 pumps, the 22X / 22S / 22SG models are rated at 625 fps at 10 pumps.
Not a huge drop, but enough to make the arc of the pellet that much worse.



Numbers from http://daisy.com/_manuals/880_web_manual.pdf

[DavidS]

Is not the low velocity caused by the higher weight of .22 pellets another issue that might impede their sales? Low velocity is not only a marketing problem, but it also has other issues. From the outside looking in, the 880 powerplant as it is sold does not make enough FPE to be worth it as a .22. Where is the market for a sub 10fpe 22?

Sure mods can improve this, but 99% of these guns are never going to be modded.

The 880 is rated at 715 fps at 10 pumps, the 22X / 22S / 22SG models are rated at 625 fps at 10 pumps.
Not a huge drop, but enough to make the arc of the pellet that much worse.



Numbers from http://daisy.com/_manuals/880_web_manual.pdf

Good questions.

I would say that even though the velocity is lower the energy is higher.     If marketed by the relative muzzle energy the advantage becomes apparent.

Yes there is a more noticeable arc with the .22 being a bit slower.   Though you still have aproximately a 20 yard range that the pellet is with in the kill zone, so not much to compensate for when you look at the fact that most AirGun hunting is at less than 30 yards.

I do agree that the marketing based on FPS is a draw back.   If they were to market based on FPE it would likely increase the sales of the .22 cal versions, as it would clearly show the power advantage of the .22.     Though before the 22X (in the time of the 922/920/822) the .22 Daisy AiRifles sold quite well.

As to the question of what interest there could be in a sub 10FPE .22:
Look at the Crosman 2289, Crosman 2240, etc, etc.    There is a large market for all of these.

This is all just my point of view.

[StevenG]

Is not the low velocity caused by the higher weight of .22 pellets another issue that might impede their sales? Low velocity is not only a marketing problem, but it also has other issues. From the outside looking in, the 880 powerplant as it is sold does not make enough FPE to be worth it as a .22. Where is the market for a sub 10fpe 22?

Sure mods can improve this, but 99% of these guns are never going to be modded.

The 880 is rated at 715 fps at 10 pumps, the 22X / 22S / 22SG models are rated at 625 fps at 10 pumps.
Not a huge drop, but enough to make the arc of the pellet that much worse.



Numbers from http://daisy.com/_manuals/880_web_manual.pdf

Good questions.

I would say that even though the velocity is lower the energy is higher.     If marketed by the relative muzzle energy the advantage becomes apparent.

Yes there is a more noticeable arc with the .22 being a bit slower.   Though you still have aproximately a 20 yard range that the pellet is with in the kill zone, so not much to compensate for when you look at the fact that most AirGun hunting is at less than 30 yards.

I do agree that the marketing based on FPS is a draw back.   If they were to market based on FPE it would likely increase the sales of the .22 cal versions, as it would clearly show the power advantage of the .22.     Though before the 22X (in the time of the 922/920/822) the .22 Daisy AiRifles sold quite well.

As to the question of what interest there could be in a sub 10FPE .22:
Look at the Crosman 2289, Crosman 2240, etc, etc.    There is a large market for all of these.

This is all just my point of view.

The 2289 was discontinued, so I think that might say the market is not that large.

I think people who want a 22 and more power are either buying 392s or a PCP.  Both are going to produce a lot more power than the 880 based systems. I do think it would be neat if daisy would build a new system with more power, but they seem to want to go the opposite direction.

[tweedking]

daisy isn't trying to get away from powerful airguns, they never had any, other than the pumpers. yes they import some springers, have since the early '60's, but they have really never had to "improve" the power on their airguns. if anything the realize that their sales are in bb-guns (how many 100's of thousands of Red Ryder's have been sold). they haven't really introduced anything NEW (innovative) in the last 40 years. even then, the technology was more than 40 years old. i don't really expect daisy to do anything groundbreaking, but i like their guns anyway.

as for the 2289: crosman usually only makes limited runs of 2289's (one of two years run, then wait for the demand to get built back up). nothing but the bug-out-pack was discontinued. there is still a 1322 or 1377, and you can still get the stock 1399.

i personally believe that daisy was reluctant to get into adult airguns because it didn't manufacture the ammo. it don't take a kid too long to shoot more $ in bb's than a 105 buck cost, but when they sold a 922, they would never get any ammo $$. yes they have .22 pellets imported from china now, but that's different. i also believe that when springers and pumpers were the top of the game, the mid-power .22's at 650fps were perceived to have a rainbow trajectory. as pcp's and such come into the market, power is higher and trajectory less of a concern as before, and .22 became the choice for power (ft/lbs).

[StevenG]

I did not mean to suggest they did make them. I meant they have been actively reducing the power of the 880 platform over the years. With the slot in the pistonhead and etc. That might simply be cost reducing measures though.

[tweedking]

as far as i can see, the old brass pump tube has a indented ring where the piston head and valve face meet, but the new steel one does not. the old-style valve-face and pump-head have some space between them because of the indent and the corresponding relief in the parts. what ever has been done to the 880 along the years, power reduction was not a goal, but might be a side effect. i have just yet to see it in a real example.

either way, i don't think we'll ever see a new power-plant from daisy unless daisy china designs it. i will predict a limited 3 year run of .22 880's (or such-like) starting in 2018. i would also predict that they will never be marketed well and discontinued again (and the guy who suggested it, fired).

[DavidS]

as far as i can see, the old brass pump tube has a indented ring where the piston head and valve face meet, but the new steel one does not. the old-style valve-face and pump-head have some space between them because of the indent and the corresponding relief in the parts. what ever has been done to the 880 along the years, power reduction was not a goal, but might be a side effect. i have just yet to see it in a real example.

either way, i don't think we'll ever see a new power-plant from daisy unless daisy china designs it. i will predict a limited 3 year run of .22 880's (or such-like) starting in 2018. i would also predict that they will never be marketed well and discontinued again (and the guy who suggested it, fired).

LOL.

Yes the pump tube has changed.   Though the older style actually had less head space, as despite the ring indention in the tube to hold the check seal the shape of the piston and seal cap made it so that the piston touches the check valve quite well.     So yes the newer Daisy AirRifles produce slightly less power in stock form than the older ones in stock form, though not enough to make a big thing out of.

I think the reason for the slot, that seems to have appeared around 2002, is to reduce the maximum possible pressure, thus helping prevent damage do to overpumping.