Author Topic: Gas Ram VS. Spring Piston (Read 9766 times))

AHMSA · « **on:** January 23, 2015, 12:44:05 AM »

Hello Everyone,

A springger I own had a gas ram failure several days ago. I've only had the gun for a few months and it's still under warranty. I now have the option to switch it to a spring piston. I know I paid for the gas piston and I know there are many advantages to a gas ram (smoother cycle, less vibration, no spring fatigue, and works better in cold weather). However, I'm worried the same issue happens again. I'm wondering if gas ram failures are more common than spring piston failures.

Any opinions on the subject?

Thanks in advance.

DavidS · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2015, 12:53:09 AM »

From my experience and what I have seen, they both tend to fail at near equal rates.

Roadworthy · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2015, 12:54:08 AM »

First off, if the gun is less than a year old the strut failure is probably a warranty issue. If it's a Crosman they'll usually even pay return shipping. Remove anything you've added as you won't get the same gun back from Crosman - it'll be a new one.

As far as the ram itself, I've got over a year and several hundred rounds through a Nitro Venom - no ram issues. They usually hold up pretty well. You'll hear of guns with early spring failures as well.

On the other hand I've got a couple of Dianas with springs, one of which was made in 1969, the other in 1989. I think both have their original springs.

Sometimes springs twang. Springs add torque to the shot cycle. Otherwise they're pretty comparable. Each has pros and cons.

nced · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2015, 01:12:51 AM »

A few comments:
smoother cycle,
Well....I personally know of only ONE advantage of a ram over a spring and that is the lack of twang over most stock spring guns, however with a properly fitted spring guide the springer is also twang and vibration free!

no spring fatigue
A spring doesn't need an oring sealed piston under pressure to work, and as you found out, rams can leak down. When there is a leakdown the only fix is to replace the whole ram, or for the more expensive rams like the Theoben variety, they can be disassembled and rebuilt but this requires a high pressure pump to recharge the ram.

works better in cold weather
Why would you believe this? A piston gun is a piston gun with the same characteristics regardless if the spring is coiled steel or compressed gas. You still have a piston with a piston seal sliding in a receiver or compression tube. Something frequently not mentioned is the fact that the "rammer" also used a piston seal (just like a "springer") and the ram is harder on the piston seal making seal replacement more frequent.

Some advantages of a steel coil spring piston guns:
1. Easier to cock than "rammers" for equal power output.
2. Have a softer shot cycle than a "rammer" which is easier on optics.
3. High end aftermarket coil springs cost only about $20 to replace when needed.

Anywhoo.......I'm completely satisfied with my coil spring R9 and when I have to replace a spring every few years it can be done in less than 1/2 hour.

mobilehomer · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2015, 10:16:32 AM »

I have about 12,000 through my NVD. No problems with power at all.

D14Jeff · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2015, 10:25:29 AM »

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=50162.msg475152;topicseen#msg475152

Quote from: D14Jeff on July 20, 2013, 02:16:18 AM

figured others would find this interesting

they even mention the new umarex Reaxis gas piston

AHMSA · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2015, 10:45:03 AM »

Thanks for the information everyone.

Kailua · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2015, 12:45:53 PM »

Some Crosman gas pistons can have a loose fit in the compression chamber causing it to cant at an angle. There for premature failure. There was a sleeve sold by a vendor (no longer available) to keep the piston straight.

AHMSA · « **Reply #8 on:** January 23, 2015, 03:28:51 PM »

Thanks for the info Paul. My gun is a Hatsan not a Crosman but I wanted to keep the discussion general regardless of manufacturer. I'm just wondering if the benefits of a gas ram (assuming there are any) outweigh the problems. As I mentioned before, I have to option to go with either one and I'm debating which one to go for.

nced · « **Reply #9 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:39:22 PM »

Quote from: D14Jeff on January 23, 2015, 10:25:29 AM

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=50162.msg475152;topicseen#msg475152

Quote from: D14Jeff on July 20, 2013, 02:16:18 AM
figured others would find this interesting

they even mention the new umarex Reaxis gas piston

Very interesting vid for sure! I do question the statement that a "rammer" cocks easier than a springer though. Years ago I shot a .25 cal Beeman Kodiac magnum (Patriot) with factory spring and had no issues cocking it multiple times and it was shooting 21.91 grain .25 Diana Domes that chronied at 800fps (about 31fpe). Not too long after I had the privilege of TRYING to shoot a Beeman Crow magnum (Eliminator) rammer and at 60 pounds of cocking effort it was a "gut buster" for me to cock even though the fpe was a bit lower (about 28fpe). LOL....right then and there I decided that if I were given a Crow Magnum I would sell it! Actually, both the Kodiac and the Crow Magnum were too large and honkin heavy for me, but I was able to cock the spring piston gun and the "rammer" only with great effort!

Anywhoo......thanks for the link, very interesting opinions for sure!

AHMSA · « **Reply #10 on:** January 23, 2015, 04:48:20 PM »

I agree. I did find the video very interesting.

They mentioned that a gas piston gun is nice until you carry and try to shoot it only to find out that the gas has leaked... Sounds familiar, doesn't it? However, a spring could break too.

D14Jeff · « **Reply #11 on:** January 23, 2015, 06:18:28 PM »

but springs are much cheaper , easy to vary their power by cutting them , more potential sources to get new ones and don't have a potential shelf life because they're not pressurized %100 of the time . just keep them straight and dry so they don't rust .

nced · « **Reply #12 on:** January 23, 2015, 06:18:44 PM »

Quote from: AHMSA on January 23, 2015, 04:48:20 PM

I agree. I did find the video very interesting.

They mentioned that a gas piston gun is nice until you carry and try to shoot it only to find out that the gas has leaked... Sounds familiar, doesn't it? However, a spring could break too.

What...a spring can break like this...........

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
This was a good after-market spring that cost about $20 and I used it in my .177 R9 for several years and a couple 10s of thousands of shots considering that I buy and shoot about 10,000 pellets per year. I simply made up another spring kit on a good after-market spring from my parts bin and after cutting the tight guides and inserting them into the spring it took me all of about 10 minutes to install the new kit! Actually, with my R9 I can remove and replace the spring kit, plus piston seal, plus re-lube the gun in about 1/2 hour for another few years of service!

D14Jeff · « **Reply #13 on:** January 23, 2015, 06:29:45 PM »

you may find these videos interesting .

Hatsan 125 Sniper Vortex .22 Cal Review & Velocity Test Vs Spring Version

Hatsan 125 Sniper .22 Cal Cold Weather Test Vortex Vs Spring Piston

mpbby · « **Reply #14 on:** January 23, 2015, 08:07:22 PM »

Gamo or Diana, I had problems with the OEM steel springs. They used to break after an estimated range from 2k to 4k rounds; before that, continuously losing relevant power.

As a renowned (in Brazil) brand (Elite) says their 'gas ram' may last 100k rounds, and, as the gas itself is not subjected to fatigue, it made sense to me.

I replaced in my 2 Gamo. Both were did by authorized (by Elite) gunsmiths, at their workshops.

Considering only my Gamo rifles, I use more frequently the stronger one, its gas spring has leaked after estimated 10k rounds, and about 18 months old after replacement. I called Elite and the answer was a single "warranty period is one year" (period). I emailed, at least twice, the manufacturer (FNA) asking about their quality control results (number of rounds), but didn't get any answer at all.

Btw, the vendor in case got so embarassed.., and sold to me a new one by the cost price (50% off).

As we may see on that very interesting round table video, "on paper" (theoretically) gas ram makes sense, but what to expect from manufacture quality..?

To me, the objective answer comes from the 'one year' warranty period. If 'they' could assure a high grade manufacture quality, the warranty period could/should be much longer.

JMO.

AHMSA · « **Reply #15 on:** January 23, 2015, 10:49:43 PM »

It sounds like I should go with the spring piston. Thanks everyone for your input. You guys are very helpful.

tjk · « **Reply #16 on:** January 24, 2015, 10:34:40 AM »

Gas ram all the way!!!!

Nikoman · « **Reply #17 on:** January 24, 2015, 05:15:20 PM »

Although I love things that go boing, I vote ram all the way on this one.

donw · « **Reply #18 on:** January 24, 2015, 05:43:15 PM »

the Beeman RX/HW 90 series gas rams are user rebuild-able very easily and inexpensively, PLUS, they are power adjustable.

i have an RX and a Benjamin NP Trail.

I've re-built the RX once in the 24 years I've owned it.

the NP...i made a delrin guide for the ram to keep it centered and have had no problems...yet

personal preference? the Beeman RX.

D14Jeff · « **Reply #19 on:** January 24, 2015, 06:35:47 PM »

the OP is swapping a hatsan , not buying another gun .

how much is the Beeman RX/HW 90 ?
and how much is all the support gear to rebuild them and pump them up/adjust their pressure ?

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Gas Ram VS. Spring Piston

Author Topic: Gas Ram VS. Spring Piston (Read 9766 times))