Cast Bullets Under Sized....Help Please

[shamu25]

I have a new gun on the way soon, finally.  It's been on order for a long long time.  Will let you guys guess what it is but the bullet size should give you a hint.  In the meanwhile I ordered 2 Lee bullet molds in 200gr (452-200-RF) and 255 gr (452-255-RF) so I can have some bullets on hand when the gun arrives.  Yesterday I cast a bunch using a 50/50 mixture of soft sheet roofing lead and wheel weights.  I ran the temp about 900 degrees and added 6" of silver solder to my Lee bottom pour pot as this has been reported to help fill the mold better.  The bullets come out looking really good.  My Lee .452 sizing die arrived yesterday and the bullets almost drop through the die with little to no effort.
The "as cast" bullets measure .450 to .451 with my digital caliper.  Any thoughts why these don't drop at .452 to .453?  It seems that they should unless the Lee mold is undersized. 

[shamu25]

Forgot to mention that the 200 gr mold drops bullets from 210 to 212 gr and the 255 gr mold drops them at 260 gr.

[PakProtector]

sometimes that happens. Lyman would mark molds with a 'U' suffix to indicate they were smaller than design.

I have a 452423 that drops a bit over 452 at 245 grains in suitable lead/tin alloy. Also have a 452460 on the way to try shortly... give me a holler after Christmas and perhaps we can get you some boolits to try.
cheers,
Douglas

[Tofazfou]

Ok,

Lee molds and products are a toss up.  The casting stuff is more of a gamble quality wise than the reloading stuff.  Lee has NEW bullet mold designs but even then, i got a very CRAPPY and SLOPPY mold.  But their reloading dies and stuff or OK.  Their sizing dies can also vary so what you report does not surprise me.  You won't have these issues with LYMAN, HOCH, RCBS, SAECO, LBT, ACCURATE or a host of others.  I mean, their mold only cost 20 bucks vs others 100 dollars.  And remember, while others molds are 100 bucks, that mold literally last you a lifetime and yo can pass it down to your kids even.

The weights you posted is spot on according to your ALLOy MIXTURE.

You can return the lee for another......................

[shamu25]

Thanks for the offer Douglas.  I may take you up on this.
As for Lee I totally agree Tofaz......I got them for 18 bucks each new from Natchez.  I bought a 257420 for my Condor .257 and the Lymans do make quality molds for sure.   I got the tips for silver solder and running the pot into the 900's from dyotat and that mold casts some excellent stuff.   May give Lee a call on Monday and see what they have to offer.  I had a .457 sizing die from them earlier this year that needed to be opened a bit and they were very good at turn around on that.

[KnifeMaker]

First, loose the wheel weights for ag use. You ca never be sure what is in them. but more than likely, there is Antimony in them.  Not only will this make the bullets too hard for ag use, it will make them age harden further, and cast slightly smaller. both what you don't want.

Now what is 6" of silver solder? Silver bearing solder, or silver solder. One melts at apx. 425, and one at over 1100 f. (Lead gasses off with toxic (Read Very Poisonous!) fumes at 1125 F!) What is the dia of the solder. Bar, stick, 3/32" wire, 1/8" wire" Makes a HUGE difference. Doug needs to be a little more specific here. 6" of what? And what percentage. Especially when you already have Tin added.

Roofing lead already has 5-6% Tin in it. No added tin needed!. That is already 20/1+.

Tin starts to separate from the mix at 775, and is very hard to get back in. It is the very silvery dross you see on the top of your melted lead at too high a temp!

Please to To the Cast Boolit forum to learn to cast.  (Yes, that is the way they spell it there! LOL!!!)

Knife

[shamu25]

Thanks Knife for the comments.  I am shooting a TJ's barrel so harder lead should not be a problem but understand softer lead may be more accurate.  I have been casting for over a year and have done lots of reading and youtubes and have cast lots of great bullets that shoot well out of my Extreme 457.  Doug was suggesting the silver solder and the 900 + degrees for the .257's  as it is more difficult to get the mold to fill out with the smaller calibers.  Guess I don't need 900+ degrees for the larger stuff so will back down to closer to 750 degrees.
As for the silver solder, Doug picked this tip up from Veral.  I am using Oatey lead-free solder 0.117" dia which has a melting temp of 420 to 460 degrees.  Going to fire up the pot next week and give her another try. 

[KnifeMaker]

I'm not worried about the bbl being damaged by the harder lead. But it will kill your velocity.  It adds a lot of undue friction. And as the bullets get older, the friction increases.  It's called age hardening.  Something you do not want!

Once again though, 900f is too high for any lead with tin in it. If you are going to go that high. Lose the tin. It cost money, and you are destroying it anyway.  Not to mention,  the higher the heat, the faster the oxidation in the form of dross.  And the easier it is to contaminate your bullets.  Again, something you DON'T want!  And one last problem with heat, the hotter you pour your cast, the more it can swrink during cooling. You are already having a problem with this, Undersized bullets, No? Want to make it worse?

I know a LOT of canters. Including comp. shooters that win. None use high heat. Yes, I know Doug does.  And he is vocal about it. The question is Why does he need it. I have bullets right here in front of me, that are from all the folks mentined often here. Cedric, Doug. RJ, and Unrepented. Mine are the crispest of any of them.

I really paid attention when unrepented schooled me   They have very crisp grove and bands, and very sharp bases. I cast at 725. So Does Unrepented. And he has been shooting matches for many, many years. Doug is a great fellow. How many matches has he cast for./ well, None. Won?, none. How long has he been casting? Not very long at all. Who's advice does he follow, as he ignors Unrepented, Cedric and myself. Veril Smith is the only one I know that he has listed to.  And I think he was a little confused as to what he said.

Doug says he uses the silver in the solder to make it shinny. Is the important thing? Bling, not accuracy? It is the TIN in the solder that makes it shinny. And it is the tin that makes it flow well. Not the silver. Silver is in it to make the solder flow well into a joint. It wets the tin. But Tin Wets LEAD, which is what we are looking for in casting. If you want to see some fine solder joints, take a look at some of my old work in my field of endeavor. Myself and two other makers are considered the best solder's in the world. Period. So I may know a thing or two about it. Been doing it for over 45 years now. LOL
With all due respect, Doug is a fine machinest. But Doug shoots rocks at distance. He is not interested in fine accuracy. He doesn't test on paper. He has stated this over and over again.

Doug is a Master at building AG's!  He is a learning caster. As we  are. But to learn, you have to be willing to listen to others that are successful in the same type of endeavors. When I spoke t Mr. Smith, he said to use tin, or go with a bit of tin in the process. He didn't say both to me. Or unrepented Sinner. I doubt highly that V. Smith has forgotten that tin separates from the melt at 900+ Deg.     

Doug is a good friend of mine, and we have gone round and round on this one. 900 deg is too hot for tin! Period!!!

Here is what I can do with solder. Find the joint. No, its not an integral. the guard and blade are not one piece. But you can't find the joint. I pioneered this technique along with famed KnifeMaker Steve Young. This is what proper wetting can do folks!  And Casting works Exactly the same!

Knife 

 

[Tofazfou]

HERE ARE SOME RECENT RESULTS OF WHAT KNIFEMAKER SPEAKS:

1.  I spent waay too much money on 2lbs of pure TIN from Rotometals
2.  Knifemaker told me about casting with TIN or with a 20-1 lead to tin mix
3.  I certainly listened to knifemaker but i wanted to test my pots temp control to see at what setting the tin would burn out.
4.  I need a new thermometer so i did not get a temp reading
5.  BUT, i can tell you that everytime i cast or had a casting session with the 20-1 MIX, my bullets got heavier and heavier due to the tin melting/burning out/evaporating? out of the lead mix due to excessive heat
6.  This in turn causes your bullets weights to be ALL OVER THE PLACE which in turn caused me 3 days of sorting bullets by weight
7.  So i found out for myself about HIGH TEMPS and TIN and it doesnt take 900 degrees either.  Its less.  Like probably high 700's.
8.  When casting with TIN in your pure lead, you MUST KEEP TEMPS UNDER CONTROL and for that, you need a thermometer.
9.  I will more than likely stick to casting pure lead or add just a dab of tin.  PURE TIN that is.....
10.  This was a test (expensive one...2lbs of tin cost 40 dollars+) and it was my 1st time casting 20-1

[rsterne]

I am very much a beginning caster, and I wanted to use pure lead as I believe (others do not) that the softer the bullet the better for airguns, at least in theory.... I joined Cast Boolits, and asked some questions about temperatures for pure lead, and got answers all the way from 725* to over 900*.... The latter was from a guy who sells thousands of bullets made with pure lead and he runs his Lee bottom pour pot "all the way to the top", so hot that the bullets has a bluish cast when they drop from the mold.... but MAN are they beautiful !!! They are 100% crisp, and with no tin to burn out of the mix, should be very consistent because the dross won't matter with a bottom pour pot, right?....

I also received some very detailed advice from another commercial caster who recommended that I add a trace amount (1% tin) to aid in fillout without having to go to 900*, and he did explain that the closer I stayed to 800* the better, otherwise I would be losing that tin.... By this time I had quite a few boolits sitting around that were already going dull from the pure lead oxidizing, just the way JSB pellets look when you first open the tin.... no longer shiny and silver coloured.... This guy told me that even 1% tin would greatly add to the ability of the lead to flow into the details of the mold without going above 800*, and that I could tell if I was running the pot too hot as the bullets would go dull over a month or so if I did, if there was still some tin in the melt they would stay shiny.... Ever since I changed to 1% tin, my bullets drop much crisper, far better corners, and they stay shiny indefinitely.... I would submit that is proof that there is still at least some tin in the melt.... as my pure lead bullets were dull grey a month later....

Temperature, for me, is still the key.... I have a hotplate (set to barely glow in a dark room - if you can see it glowing with the lights on it's too hot)) sitting beside my Lee bottom pour pot, and I have a thermometer in the melt at all times.... I preheat my molds on the hotplate, and I throw the first 10 sets of castings back into the pot (to let the mold temperature stabilize) before I keep the bullets.... I find that with .22 cal molds I have to run the pot as close to 850* as I can.... With .25 cal, just over 825* seems about right.... and with .308 just under 825 but definitely over 800*.... When I cast .357 bullets I try and stay right at 800*, and with .45 cal anywhere from 775-800* seems to work just fine.... To me, this seems to explain the WIDE variation in temperatures that all those well meaning casters suggested when I started out....

I am certainly not offering any of the above as advice, as I'm still learning.... However, I would be very interested in hearing comments from experienced, successful casters about my methods, 1% tin alloy, and conclusions....

Bob

[11william]

I have a new gun on the way soon, finally.  It's been on order for a long long time.  Will let you guys guess what it is but the bullet size should give you a hint.  In the meanwhile I ordered 2 Lee bullet molds in 200gr (452-200-RF) and 255 gr (452-255-RF) so I can have some bullets on hand when the gun arrives.  Yesterday I cast a bunch using a 50/50 mixture of soft sheet roofing lead and wheel weights.  I ran the temp about 900 degrees and added 6" of silver solder to my Lee bottom pour pot as this has been reported to help fill the mold better.  The bullets come out looking really good.  My Lee .452 sizing die arrived yesterday and the bullets almost drop through the die with little to no effort.
The "as cast" bullets measure .450 to .451 with my digital caliper.  Any thoughts why these don't drop at .452 to .453?  It seems that they should unless the Lee mold is undersized.

Is it a ranger  from xp

[dyotat100]

So someone that casts commercially and runs over 900 degees also

Well I will stick to what works for me. I have no dross on the top of my lead when I run my pot over 900 degrees. I don't add anything to my lead and when I do it is 6" of plumbers silver bearing solder. So that would mean I would burn off the tin and use the silver in it. When I add it it is less then a ounce in 20 lbs.

I didn't just pick a number. When I got my new RCBS pot it has a temp dial and thermostat.  I started at 750 and tried casting. Didn't work. So I gradually turned it up and tried. Well the pot only goes up to 850 degrees and I couldn't get good results.

So I took it apart and removed the stop so the dial will go beyond 850 degrees.  I made a mark where it pored good to turn to.

Then I read about the PID controller on cast boolits. I purchased one from a member that makes them.

Again I started it out a lower temp to see if maybe the RCBS pot was off on the the temp.  I ended up at 960 degrees. Maybe it is off but that is what I have it set at and works perfect.

So if I'm poring that hot I should have no tin and be pure lead right?

I have only been casting for about 3 years now. I don't call myself a expert at all.

But I do have away with doing something until I learning it.  I also tend to learn things fast. I learned how to tig by building a full turbo setup for my Toyota truck. I made the custom stainless turbo manifold and header, all the intake tubing to and from the intercooler. Custom radiator and endless other things. Aluminum was the hardest to learn and stainless wasn't much easier. It is still working fine 6 years later.

When I make something I only know how to make it one way. If it takes 5 times to make a part perfect that is what I do. My friend always says it's Dougie built, over done and perfect.

I don't shoot paper because I don't have the time or the place to do it. Where I go and test is windy and not the ideal place to do it. Most of the time I only have a couple of hours and 1 hour is traveling to and from. I shoot small rocks on the slope around the 100 yd targets.  I have taken golf ball and shot them on the ground and even hanging. I have no problem hitting golf balls at 100 yds. I just bought 500 orange paintball rounds for my next targets to put out. Those should be fun.

I have went to the range once with Cedric and I did get great groups. The .257 was shooting groups that a dime would cover at 100 yds. This was with a barrel that had a 1000 + shots through it without cleaning. I have since cleaned it and it seems to shoot even better.

I don't think if my bullets were not that good that I could hit a prairie dog at 194 yds and at 292 yds with the .257. The 194 was done sitting on a small chair off the tailgate and 292 yds was standing hunched over with the bipod sitting on are folded up table in the bed. Neither position was perfect.



I don't remember sending you any of my bullets Mike but I will if you want to see what 960 degree bullets look like.

I have a mold here sent to because they couldn't get good results. Pot only went up to 840 degrees. I'm going to try it with my setup and see.

[shamu25]

Sure feel that I stirred the pot on this one.....but glad you guys are all buddies when the dust settles.  I have tons of  respect for all of you and really enjoy the bantering.  There's lots of good stuff between the lines.  Thanks.
Today I tried casting again and lowered the temp to 750-775 and the bullets dropped at approx .452 a full .001 larger than when the pot was over 900.  Don't have a mic so this is from my cheapie Harbor Freight digital caliper.  I'll have my buddy mic them tomorrow. 
I got some .257 bullets from you Doug and also got some from RJ Porter a few months back when I was shooting my R&L Condor.  They all looked great compared to the 257's I was casting at the time.  It wasn't until I upped the temp to 900+ with the silver solder that I could get my Lyman 257 die to drop good bullets.  My Lee alum die just doesn't work the same with 452's.  The lower temp seems to work great.

[rsterne]

So someone that casts commercially and runs over 900 degees also

Yes but only with PURE LEAD.... you can't keep tin in the melt at that temperature....

Bob

[PakProtector]

Knife, I have had *ZERO* luck casting cool with .224 boolits. Get mold warm, and lead HOT...and all is good. Tin content around 2-3% and perpetually silver boolits.
cheers,
Douglas

[KnifeMaker]

Doug, you did mention that you were going to send me some of the NOE bullets that you cast from Cedric's mold. The HP ones I think. Cedric is going to send me some he cast.

I too tried to cast at higher heat. Yep, it worked, but killed the tin mix. Turned out that the mold was not hot enough. It needs to be at 425-450 to start. And it is a LOT harder to get to stay at heat than a large cal. Such as a .454 mold. There is just so little surface area being heated in a small cal. mold. Especially an alu. mold. Iron, and brass is a lot easier!

What temp are you guy's using for the molds?

Doug, please, please be careful. I know you have a PID controller, But most people are not using one.  A person reading this thread, could very well read your thread, think high 9's is the place to be, set the very undependable Lee control, and quiet literally poison themselves, or fry their lungs. And as someone with only 35% lung function, I can tell you. This is something you DON'T want to do. Or cause someone else to do! Lead is not something to screw with. 

Knife 

[dyotat100]

Yes you are right about keeping the molds hot. I have a single burner Coleman stove I use to heat molds. With aluminum 4 hole molds I have to put them back on once in awhile to push the heat back up some. I watch and check bullets as I go so I can catch any problems as they happen. That way  I don't cast a 100 or so slugs that are no good.

Steel molds hold the heat way better.

The biggest thing I cast is 158 gr .308. I have 194 gr but I need to make a new sprue plate for it with smaller holes.

I think I'm going to fire up the pot tonight. Need to cast some NOE .257 and a 6 and 7 ring mold that was shipped to me to test.

[shamu25]

Doug, the group buy for 6&7ring molds was resurrected in November on the TAG forum.does this mold you are referring to have anything to do with that post? If not is there another source out there making these molds? Also is it 25 caliber or 257?

[dyotat100]

It is a members over on TAG. It is 2 6 ring and 1 7 ring. I bet they will work for .257. He is sizing to .254". I will find out how big they are when I cast them.

Looking like tomorrow night. Had a busy day in the garage and just don't have the drive to fire up the pot tonight.

Started 7 mm and really barreled a recluse 9 mm to a TJ .357.

[shamu25]

thanks Doug. I'm anxious to get your update, Ray