Re: gen2 .22 valve porting (New MAX 45.74 FPE)

[shorty]

I really have to thank all of you for your help in my quest of keeping myself busy on vacation. Going to shoot some strings now. Thanks again guys (everyone).

[shorty]

Well, I am not sure if I am disappointed or not. No increase in FPS with the 21.14. How is this possible ? Going to .25" would have been 33% larger, I went to .218 which is around 16% larger. Something did change though. It used less air and the string started off like a typical curve.

I really thought this was going to increase the fps on the 21.14's. Something can't be right. Is there a chance that the JSB 25.4's will hit the 900+ marks ?

I am almost out of the 21.14's so I am changing to the .051" spring and shooting for 850 fps with chp's to see if I can get a good efficiency.

3000psi fill
HT5 HT0 vas5
917
922
934
935
928
935
928
933
939
937
ending pressure 2850

[Motorhead]

I am measuring around 3/16" or .1875" on the poppet throat and we want to hit .25". Holy mackerel. I don't think I'll ever be able to keep that hole perfect enough at .25" with out destroying the seat.

What happens if that hole isn't perfectly straight ?

As stated ... DO NOT DRILL IT !!
Another issue is NOT drilling out the back of the throat any deeper.  A reamer will simply hit the back edge and stop.
A drill will keep going and then valves toast !!!

[Motorhead]

Running a few quick data numbers ... Tossing H&N 21.3's at @ 925 fps is 40 ft lbs !!
That is already VERY very healthy and for a lot of us with .22 cal marauders is above where you can expect any decent amount of shots.

Just sayin ...


* You will also find a bit more by blending in the transfer hole at throat ( Sort of a widened funnel shape ) done side to side.  Seat sealing surface is very close so dont funnel transfer hole towards seat surface !

[shorty]

BillG, You are spot on with the bigger curve. I am having a difficult time tuning for a low ES. I am starting to think this may have been a bad Idea. Whatever, whats done is whats done.

The only thing that opening up the throat has done so far is lower the max fps with the same hammer tension and keep the ES low at 3000psi for 10 shots.

I am not done tuning yet but, I am starting to adjust the VAS now to improve on lower ES at 800 to 850 with CHP's to compare with what was stock (almost stock) when I got over 80 shots at 780 avg with less than 5%ES.

Doesn't adjusting the VAS (closing the exhaust port) defeat the whole purpose ?

I am starting to second guess opening up the throat on the 22.

[moorepower]

There is a reason that some folks pay others to do it. It's often cheaper than buying the tooling to do it yourself.  I suppose if you had a drill press and a V-block you could hold it enough to ream with the press. I am glad that I could justify a couple of lathes for fabbing one off parts, because when you see what some charge for a completed valve, I would never be able to justify spending $$ on tooling.

[shorty]

Motorhead, I did touch the back of the valve with the bits.I don't think to much but enough to see clean aluminum. I was as careful as possible to not go any deeper using a guide on the bit and feel. I knew I should have listened. "dang" kids with power tools. Can't teach them nothing.

40 fpe is cool but I see AJshoots  (WAR Valve) and Tim Hill's valve producing 45 to 50 fpe and Tim's 1018 fps with jsb's 25.4 for maybe one or 2 shots. I see no one else getting close to that and I wanted that today.

Oh Well. Live and learn. Maybe something will turn out of this with some extra tuning. It's like a completely different gun.

any other ideas will be listened too.

What kind of bee's make milk?
Boo-Bees!!!!!!

I think I drank too much.

[shorty]

You are absolutely right moorepower.

Its not only the right tools, but the know how. I would not recommend anyone doing this unless you want to learn how to do it wrong first and then buy something from someone that knows what they are doing.

Buy from the pros. !!

this thread is a good learning experience for armatures like myself.

[Motorhead]

The WAR valve is so far removed in design and flow from the OEM valve comparing figures is just not realistic !!

That valve WAS DEVELOPED because of the limitations of the OEM valve no matter how hacked up you made it.


Purpose focused engineering & manufacturing nearly always trumps reworked parts of a lesser potential.

[HillGSA]

I don't think the factory valves are THAT bad. They work well for their intended purpose, for most air gunners. Though I would agree they have room for improvement for those seeking the most efficiency, usable shots per fill, or for those that want to push the limits of their Marauder Rifles maximum power output ( though the last part, is no particular fault of the valve  ).

BTW- I have been working on a new valve design since about February of this year - my new " Blue Valve"  . The valve body is made from scratch ( so to speak ) starting with a solid piece of 7075 aluminum - for durability and no worries about pressures ( yes, a lot of tools were broken during the process ). The valves chamber, measures over 1/2" in width. The seat is moved forward so even the most power hungry can have the outlet port up to .230 diameter ( .30 cal. fans take note  ), without concerns about the valve seat being compromised. There is no, velocity adjustment screw, so no worries about it getting loose or causing problems with turbulence, etc..

The valve body starts with smaller, standard sized inlet and outlet ports. These ports can be left the way they are for .177 caliber rifles, and for those seeking a low to medium power tune for their .22 caliber rifles. Shot strings are pretty flat, depending on the tune, and can be further changed by swapping out the transfer port - of which any size from .98 and up ( within reason ) are available. And, the valve bodies ports can be opened up more, and transfer ports can be changed out, to accommodate those seeking higher power tune in their .22, 25, and higher caliber rifles.

So the idea is to start with a ( base/standard ) valve body that when said and done , can accommodate most all shooters. By working up, this keeps those seeking lower power, from having to deal with unnecessarily large and inefficient ( for their needs ), ports and passageways.

If anyone is interested in more information, I probably should start another thread - I've probably said too much on shortys thread already 

EDIT add pic:

[Motorhead]

Woof !! ..... definitely BLUE  ... cool to get more choices for those seeking greater performance.

Good looking stuff !!

[HillGSA]

Woof !! ..... definitely BLUE  ... cool to get more choices for those seeking greater performance.

Good looking stuff !!

- - -


Yep, there's no better time to be air gunning -  than now  - lol

Thx

[shorty]

Your more than welcome to show some of the cool stuff your doing Hill.

Trying to do some thinking here on why not a big jump in fps or fpe. Ports are all open and obviously I didn't mess them up to bad. The only thing bothering me now is the poppet spring. That spring was extremely stout. Really stout.

There's two things I can do tomorrow. I can make a poppet spring with half the force or just completely remove the valve cap and spring. I can use some of every ones thoughts on this one as it will be my 3rd and probably last time of tearing it down.

Unless someone else has any better ideas to get that fpe close to 50.

[Motorhead]

Less poppet spring ... or at least Less Preload on it will give you power. * As stated a Gen 1 spring is a lot softer 
Having No poppet spring is a Bad idea IMO

[HillGSA]

Your more than welcome to show some of the cool stuff your doing Hill.

Trying to do some thinking here on why not a big jump in fps or fpe. Ports are all open and obviously I didn't mess them up to bad. The only thing bothering me now is the poppet spring. That spring was extremely stout. Really stout.

There's two things I can do tomorrow. I can make a poppet spring with half the force or just completely remove the valve cap and spring. I can use some of every ones thoughts on this one as it will be my 3rd and probably last time of tearing it down.

Unless someone else has any better ideas to get that fpe close to 50.

- --


shorty-  Since PCPs can be soooo adjustable, you may want to set a goal;

a) ( To get the curiosity out of the way ), do you want to see what the maximum power is, that you can get out of your rifle, for say, 1 shot ? ( you don't get maximum power for more than 1- shot - usually ) - and then go from there ( though no problem, that seems to be what some like to do ).
b) Do you want 3- of the highest power shots ?
c) Do you want 1- mag. ( .22 cal. = 10 shots ) of the highest available power shots ?
d) Do you want 2- mags. of the highest available power shots ?
etc., etc..

Also, to avoid vertical stringing, what is the highest extreme spread or E. S. you can tolerate ( BTW- if you just joined us;   E. S. = the difference between the highest velocity shot, and the lowest velocity shot - of the total shots per fill [ shot string ] -  the farther away you are, the lower the E. S. needs to be ).

[shorty]

To be honest, (as dumb as this sounds) I really don't have a goal. I just wanted to see if I can do what your valve and the war valve can do with the 22 and red neck engineering. You all know one day I am gonna break down and buy something one day.

It looks like your valve and the war valve perform almost identically when comparing AJshoots 22 and your tune at 45 fpe running JSB 25.39's. Your valve appears to get a couple more shots.

So,I guess my goal would be (all at or below 4%ES)
70+ shots at 20fpe
50 shots at 30 fpe
30 shots at 40fpe
20 shots at 45fpe
10 shots at 50fpe

What I can do already (avg):
60 shots at 20fpe under 3% ES
40 shots at 30fpe under 4%
20 shots at 39 fpe at or under 4%
5 shots at 42 fpe
1 shot at 43.88

I am sure I am asking for too much here for a goal but, that's what I would like to see.

I think I know why the FPS did not increase when I opened up the throat. Stupid me. The VAS was at 4. With the Exhaust port now at .156" I need to have the vas at 5.5 to be wide open. Stupid.......

[shorty]

So I remapped the VAS this morning. Now I now why you guys get rid of it. Wide open is now 6.25 and half closed (or open) is 4.

Charged the gun to 3000 and tried a string. First 4 shots were 750fps and climb to 900. I reloaded the clip and began my shot string at just under 3000 psi.

10 Lb spring
HS8 HT0 VAS open.
920
934
934
950
954
954
954
948
952
946
949
940
935
942
943
948
945
925
928
922
Ending pressure 2450
20 shots
Max 954
Min 922
AVG fps 938
AVG FPE 41.3
ES 3.3 %
Air usage 27.5 if you start at 3k and guessing it was really around 2.9k so 22.5psi per shot.

Now we are getting somewhere. It definitely appears as if this will be the max with the 21.14's with the current spring set up (Poppet spring or hammer spring). Just because I do not feel like degassing again and making a poppet spring, I made a dual wire .048" PH wire spring at 2" long. I only have a couple 21.14's left so the only High fpe shots today will mostly likely be single or double shots (no strings).

It definitely appears as if this will be the last mystery. I just ordered 4 tins of jsb 25.4's and should arrive on sat. Cant wait to throw them in and see what they do.

[shorty]

Dual wire spring just came out of the oven and has been installed. Like I said I am just out of the 21.14's so I ran a couple test settings on the new hammer spring and Hammer throw.

3000 psi with out recharging in between shots. Just shot.

HT0 VAS wide open
HS1= 937
HS2= 961
HS3= 987
HS4= 987
HS5= 984
HS6= 983
HS7= 972
Had to stop at 7 because of bind,bolt was to hard to pull, and HS3 appears to flatten out.

Then I did:
HS1 VAS wide open
HT3 = 664
HT5 = 650
HT8 = 598

Then
HS2 VAS wide open
HT3 = 786

Lastly
HS3 VAS wide open
3HT = 868

I am really glad I started messing around with those dual wire springs. I made this one just at 2 inches to have no or negative preload. I hope this spring works out for Bullfrog. The spring really allows for low and max tunes.

So with the max numbers above with HS3 HT0 VAS wide open, It looks like I got my max today of 45.74 FPE.

[shorty]

Just got working on a High efficient lower fpe tune for 14.3 chp's. couldn't be happier.

Charged to 3000 and shot a string down to 1000 psi to see where the best would be. Looks like 2200 psi to 1200 psi.

Here's what I got:

starting psi 2200
HS0 HT0 VAS wide open
849.59
850.96
858.26
854.99
858.44
873.43
851
850
857.05
857.23
860.09
872.61
871.36
867.98
882.67
878.31
875.26
874.76
866.43
884.8
877.42
870.61
869.04
880.36
882.15
881.51
872.74
865.13
873.69
873.69
878.57
877.93
861.44
862.73
871.48
874.44
868.98
863.22
874.63
879.59
875.45
876.6
874.95
862.36
885.19
879.91
869.48
878.25
870.42
884.34
884.22
867.92
858.81
863.83
870.36
862.73
866.25
863.96
860.03
855.29
860.03
856.86
848.4
848.99
852.88
850.1
853.6
851.3
849.1
847.7
ending pressure 1.2k
70 shots
Max 885
Min 847
AVG 866.9
AVG FPE 23.8
PSI per Shot 14.3
ES 4.31 %

Now that is pretty awesome. Guess I better start checking accuracy since I drill a hole in the barrel port.