New WAR valve and NB hammer in .22 and .25 Mrod

[LEE IN VA.]

Thanks I didn't know it was Marmot Malitia. 

[Motorhead]

Thanks I didn't know it was Marmot Malitia. 

 MM and the M-rod forum sell his products

http://www.marauderairrifle.com/shops/wicked-air-rifles/

[oldpro]

 Marmot Militia Is now Wicked Air Rifles. All the parts on WAR are a collaboration between Jim and myself (Travis) except those Jim had designed in the past. Jim does almost all the Machine work except for some stuff we farm out to local USA machinists nothing is made overseas.

[Rdsail]

The valve looks great. My only thing is the price tag that comes with it. I don't know if it is worth the $150 but very nice work indeed.

[shorty]

Rdsail hit the nail on the head with price point. Shelling out $150 for the valve plus the NBH puts it to about $250. don't get me wrong though, I still think the WAR valve is awesome and I really want one (really bad). BUT,,,,, For me, the 22 ain't got me completely sold yet and unfortunately, this is what I have.

If I had the  .25, I would be all over it like, well you know. This valve and the NBH in a .25 sounds like the perfect match for someone that wants beyond what ever else is on the market and stock for the .25 marauder for power,accuracy, and shot count.

Maybe there's not enough shot strings and power levels for the .22 yet.

I just don't understand why the 22 cant see the same numbers (and shot count increase) as the .25 cal. I have to be missing something or it's just not enough attention on the .22 cal.

[rsterne]

Simple, the area of a .25 cal pellet is a third larger, allowing the air to develop that much more force at the same pressure.... and propel a 1/3 heavier pellet at the same velocity.... producing 33% more FPE.... while using about a third more air....

Bob

[Rdsail]

even then I'm not sure if it is worth it. Most mrod 25s don't shoot the heavy pellets well so there is no point on powering up unless we switch the barrel that will shoot slugs or the heavy pellets.

I always put my mrod 25 tune. I get 30 shots at 45fpe with JSBs kings. The gun is capable of a lot more power but there are no pellets that perform well. This is with a modified mrod valve. Accuracy is number one for me, so there is no reason to get a valve that can produce 80-100fpe if you can't hit what you want. At $150 I can buy quiet a few stock valves and modify them for different power levels.

I get 60 fpe with my valve and I can open it up quiet a bit still. My post are at .161.

[LEE IN VA.]

I'd like to see some accuracy reports on the .25 with heavy pellets and with the king's at 950 fps.

[shorty]

Rstern,
The 22 has approximately 21.2% more surface area that of a 25 with the same grain pellet ( 25.4 grain). It's the longer length that gives more surface area. So with that being said, are we saying that the barrel friction to pellet (with the 25) is so much less that it propels the pellet faster than the 22 along with the higher shot count or what you said "less air to propel"?

I am not buying that. Something else is going on. I don't claim to know whats going on but, I sure would like to know.

The only thing that's coming to my mind is that the barrel on a 25 is 13% larger in diameter than a 22 (approximately). This may mean that the ports (all the ports-including the barrel) on a 22 can not be opened large enough to allow the HPA to deliver the same amount of pressure and volume to achieve the same results.

For one thing I really want the valve. I think the WAR valve is more than capable of doing the same thing to the 22 as it did to the .25 cal. Just a little more thinking has to be done. I got disappointed earlier when I read a post on the marauder forum from OldPro sugggesting Hill's valve over his for a guy that wanted it for a 22. That's stand up in my book but, from what I see there is a really big potential with the WAR valve on the 22 as well if you want over 50fpe with >30 shots. Just got to show it with the numbers.

[Tomg]

I think he is talking about Volume. A 10cc volume of 1800psi contains more potential energy than 8cc of 1800psi.

[rsterne]

shorty, the ratio of the area of the base of the pellet, which is what the air gets to push on, is (.250/.217)^2 = 1.327, which for me is close enough to 33%.... The surface area of the pellet has nothing to do with the energy that can be reached with a given pressure and barrel length.... That energy (FPE) is based on the force on the pellet (pressure times area = lbs.) and the length through which that force gets to accelerate the pellet (barrel length in ft.).... If you want to do some reading on the subject, this thread may help.... http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=57828.0

Any given valve and porting may or may not work better in .22 cal or .25 cal, but the POTENTIAL FPE is relative to caliber, pressure, and barrel length.... simple Physics....

Bob

[shorty]

Reterne,
Good discussion. Your right. 

CSA =((d/2)*(d/2))*3.142    "Cross sectional area"

.25 = CSA of .04909
.22 = CSA of .03698

Difference of 32.7%. Your right,  I was wrong. Like usually but learning.

 At 1800psi behind the .25 is 88lbs of force pushing the pellet and with a 22 it is only 65 lbs of pressure ( I Think ). This is approximately 35% less energy that the pellet is seeing with the 22. Your right again.

To be equivalent to a 25 the 22 would have to run at 2380psi ( would this be right? ). The again, the marauder charges to 3000psi (3200psi). So, what gives? Does this mean that the ports would have to be larger than the 25 to achieve equivalency. Or is it plain ole impossible.

I am terrible with numbers so give me my chewing.

[shorty]

So I just ran the numbers from AJshoots avg FPS on both tunes between the 22 and 25.

Amazing how things work. With 35% less force behind the 22 calculation the numbers match up to AJshoots FPE just like you said.

22 running 46 fpe is 35% less than the 71 FPE that the 25 is shooting.

So maybe I did answer my own question. Maybe you cant achieve over 50fpe with the 22 with a 10 or more shot count regardless of the valve.

Then again, if my 22 synrod can achieve 10 shots at 40 fpe, then a 25 synrod with a 10lb hammer and ports opened to .141" should be able to achieve 62 FPE but I have not seen anyone tune to anything like that with just the hammer spring and larger port. With the math saying it and not me, that says that the valve and the NBH only achieves an additional 8-10 fpe with a 1 shot mag for the 25. Could this be right ?

[Rdsail]

I maxed out my mrod 25 with 63fpe with a 12.5# spring and ports at .161. Granted that was with EJ 35g. I might get some more power with EJ43. but they shot all over the place. I think it will be hard to get to 60 fpe with just .141 ports. Just not enough flow and if you get there it would be inefficient.

I might be able to gain some power if I increase the size of the poppet sit/throat. Right now it is at .210.

[shorty]

So with what Rdsail said about him maxing his 25 out to 63 fpe the math does seem right.

I don't know how to say this any other way then, it sounds like the WAR valve only achieves 8 to 10 more FPE over a stock valve and has the capability to dump to a 100fpe (25 cal). This cant be right, can it ?

It sounds like a TP and barrel porting along with a >/= 10 lb spring for $10 is a "dang" good investment and modification to the marauder regardless of the caliber. For $10's your increasing the fpe by 10fpe to 20 fpe over stock regardless of caliber.

Introduce the NBH to the picture and shot count goes up. I am pretty sure I understand how the NBH works and I think the wedge design is just brilliant.

[Rdsail]

Shorty,

Check out the link in my signature about my build. You will find all the info there with the mods I did. Plenty of strings to look at.

[PakProtector]

Maybe you cant achieve over 50fpe with the 22 with a 10 or more shot count regardless of the valve.

It is quite possible to valve up a .22 to shoot over 50 FPE. Just takes a heavier projectile. Unfortunately most of such things are .224 so you'll need a new barrel. Mine will push 46 grains to +100 FPE...with a 27" barrel. It is currently running slightly less than that with only 39 gr boolits. I have to run a casting session; there are some other 46's I want to try( gas checked, not plain base ).

With a stock tube, and high power, you'll be getting 6-700 FPE per fill. In case of the 25 cal, I have done 8 at 80 FPE. With a .22 perhaps 10 at 60 FPE (peaks slightly higher, and 4% spread ). The WAR valve looks like it has the capacity to run good efficiency at substantial power...certainly a pellet energy string, flattened by a bstaley buffer would be quite achievable, and at good air usage levels compared to even modified valves.
cheers,
Douglas

[HillGSA]

Marauder .22 cal. rifle 58 fpe ( near max ) with a modified parts kit

[oldpro]

 With the WAR valve we have been able to push a 43.2 Eunjin in .25 cal to 1050 FPS for 105.8 FPE!!! If I had some larger lead im sure I could reach 115 maybe more. I can easily shoot .25 JSB Kings supersonic. This is not hype our customers can verify it on their own rifles.

[Motorhead]

No dog in the fight ... but as others have questioned, Speed and Power with poor accuracy serves no purpose

Would love to see some 50 or 100 yard grouping with .22 and .25 rifles with heavy pellets at the upper power ranges.
* Hype sells only so far ... Certainly be more telling tasting the steak than just smelling it  .... Don't ya think ?