*Poll* High Quality 6.35mm Air Rifle - PCP vs Pumper

[UCChris]

$700 was an initial guess that I said not to hold me too...I'm trying my best to make it under $1000.

I'll have a price set in a couple of weeks.

Mike

I apologize. I didn't mean to construe that I was going to hold you to $700. Anything less than an FX Independence is money saved! I'm just saying $700 is a good price point, but $1000 is also.

The unique situation that you have is pretty cool. You are going to offer a product that has zero competition. People will come to you because they want a better gun than a tricked out 13xx and don't want to pay the $1800 for an FX. There is no gun like that currently. You have the market at this point.

[BobbyHumphrey]

 You my friend are what America is all about. Rock on!

[CarsonRatSniper]

I would've been happy with a pump n dump in .25 cal that had the modularity of a Disco - that's what started me 'thinking' a couple of years ago.
Then - Lo & Behold - there's Bobs Millennium Pumper thread!

I've really taken the top end to the extreme of what can be done for an air rifle and have suited it best I could as a high quality repeater...I don't think a stick mag made out of 7075 will ever wear out and there's no winding springs to go bad.

My top end (barrel/breech assembly) will bolt right on to a Disco, so the Bottle version is coming next - the Pumper is just WAY too functional and cool for hunting or survival that its the first thing we're doing.

I really hope the supply issue of Blaster blanks doesn't hinder production - if it does become an issue it will end up in a modified Disco stock...just know that is *NOT* what I want the final product to be wearing but it needs a stock to be shot so I will have to play the cards I'm dealt.

Anyway, the steel Picatinney breeches for the Disco/22xx are almost finished...I will post some pictures tomorrow. These are not for the Millenium - they are bolt on breeches for your existing gun.
If nobody buys any I will use them to build factory barreled bottle guns with.

My Millenium top end is a little complicated and not cheap - but the results should rival the RAW HM1000X in the accuracy department. I think that's all I really need to say!


Millenium parts are starting in a couple days!

[aom22]

My top end (barrel/breech assembly) will bolt right on to a Disco, so the Bottle version is coming next ...

I suspect the bottle version of the Millennium may appeal to a broader spectrum of airgunners - the PCP crowd.
In-fact, I had sent DiscosRus an internal message inquiring about the cost of converting a Disco to bottle feed (Ninja 13ci) along with BNM .25 caliber shrouded repeater top-end
or BNM Airgun Multi Breech on-or-about 18OCT2014.
As-of-yet, I haven't received a response.
CarsonRatSniper ... I think you're on the right-track with the bottle-conversion.
As such, what do you think the cost of a complete rifle might be (Disco stock and Blaster version)?

Anyway, the steel Picatinney breeches for the Disco/22xx are almost finished ....I not for the Millenium - they are bolt on breeches for your existing gun.
My Millenium top end is a little complicated and not cheap - but the results should rival the RAW HM1000X in the accuracy department.

Can a shrouded barrel system be incorporated into the design rather than a screw-on LDC?
Or, at the very least, the design will allow for an aftermarket shroud to be easily installed by the owner.
A shrouded barrel may allow for a shorter OAL than adding an LDC.
Quiet is a big factor for me and, I think, to many others as well.
As such, a shrouded barrel option might be a viable idea.

Will your Disco top-end require any modifications to the OEM Disco stock?

[CarsonRatSniper]

No mods needed to fit the top end on.

No room for a shroud - its all about barrel stiffness and breech rigidity. The muzzle will be threaded 1/2x20 for attaching whatever you want to the end of the rifle.

I will look at the bottle gun later on when I'm done working on the Millennium project.

Mike

[cclingma]

Stick mag?

I picture a elongated rectangle with 5 or so pellet holes machined to slide through breech?  That it?  So open bolt, advance stick, close bolt and shoot sound right?

[CarsonRatSniper]

Yep...but it will be a side cocking gun so the loading/cocking actions are separate.

Still *much* faster for a follow up shot than digging around for a pellet, loading and shooting.

Mike

[Oni]

Looking forward to this!!!

[vigilandy]

Yep...but it will be a side cocking gun so the loading/cocking actions are separate.

Still *much* faster for a follow up shot than digging around for a pellet, loading and shooting.

Mike

Don't forget the step where you sort the pellet from the pocket lint.....   

[CarsonRatSniper]

Actually, the stock will need to be inletted for the front breech/tube band, located in between the front of the trigger frame and gauge.

That factory 4-48 transfer port screw is GONE!

The breech is secured by the original rear breech/tube screw and the front of the breech is secured by the tube clamp.
The tube clamp will be 316 stainless threaded 6-32.
The retaining screws will install/remove from the top of the gun, through the breech so you don't need to pull the entire action out of the stock...the top end can be taken off the gun by removing 3 screws.

There's a couple other little details but I'm not sharing them - you'll have to wait until the guns come out.

Mike

[Matt15]

Yep...but it will be a side cocking gun so the loading/cocking actions are separate.

Still *much* faster for a follow up shot than digging around for a pellet, loading and shooting.

Mike

Don't forget the step where you sort the pellet from the pocket lint.....   

And the rest of the &^^& I carry around in my pocket.

[hpmr2400]

Hello Carson, for the bottle fed version, are you going to use rsternes idea with the reverse tank block for more plenum volume? or are you going to go with a JDS tank block style with smaller tube?

[CarsonRatSniper]

I haven't gotten that far yet...I will test Bobs valve design @ 1800 psi with a full length tube to give enough plenum for some really good power.
Who said the bottle had to be attached to the gun? 

I'm actually a pretty big fan of remote lines and bottles in shoulder bags or small day packs.

#1 - The balance and weight of the gun is very remarkable = light and points/handles fast;
#2 - Huge shot count!

I will take a more serious look at that build once we get the Millennium going strong.

Mike

[aom22]

... for the bottle fed version ....

I haven't gotten that far yet...
I will take a more serious look at that build once we get the Millennium going strong.

Mike, there has/have been a number of titillating comments and attention-getting inquires made concerning the Millennium Bottle Fed version.
Maybe it is time to start a separate  thread to get interested parties familiarized with your vision of the Millennium Bottle version.
And, to gather some ideas of what potential owners want in a Millennium PCP.

[CarsonRatSniper]

I'm working on these (designs & drawings) on my off time from work and I'm over at Jim's shop as often as possible...usually every morning before I go to work.
The difference between a bottle gun and the pumper will purely be in powerplants that one top end can be used on.
I'm really not interested in designing or redesigning my top end...it allows for a .100" clearance over the tube with the .750" OD barrels...so really no room for a shroud.

I have too much going on right now to start a thread about a bottle version...I'm staying focused on what we are currently working on.

Thank you though!

Mike

[hpmr2400]

Cool.I just saw that rsterne calculated 50 shots with thev millenium tethered to a 22ci tank,that sounds pretty dam good.I could bench shoot for awhile then disconnect the line and walk in the woods and pump when I shoot. Also Carson, since it is based off of disco power plant would it be easy to maintain in case orings need to be replaced

[stilkikin]

I will be scrimping and saving in the mean time. This will start a new trend in airguns...

[CarsonRatSniper]

Yep...o rings should simply be -111 inside the valve and -116 for outside the valve (IIRC) - then whatever your bolt probe o ring is for caliber.

I've read the FX Independence had some corrosion issues due to moisture in the gun from their on board pump.
Each Millennium will come with a small bottle of Tims Secret Sauce for lubing pivot points and the piston wiper (I lube my pellets & slugs with it too!) - I would imagine the oil will eventually migrate into the valve and protect the internals from moisture issues.
It doesn't matter if it ends up 'shooting through' the gun...it doesn't skunk up a barrel like silicon grease does (don't ask me how I know).

I *was* going to use the setup I have on my 1322 Carbine - it has a felt wiper on the piston and the space between the wiper and triple piston head o rings was packed with divers silicon grease...it pumps butter smooth and doesn't need greasing or oiling as it self lubricates now...the triple piston head o rings prevent any migration into the valve assembly.

Maybe some migration is in order to protect the internals...if it works for Steroid Pumpers I suppose we should do the same thing!

Mike

[aom22]

I've read the FX Independence had some corrosion issues due to moisture in the gun from their on board pump.

I remember something similar ... since, has been resolved.

Issues with the Independence....

I just spoke to Fredrik about these issues; some Independence do have problems with rust
but there is no clear pattern of the guns affected, ie no batch issue or something.

All new guns, since some time ago, have been been sold with rustproof components and will not rust.

Those older guns that do show signs of corrosion will be taken care of by FX. Owners can send their rifles
to AoA or receive a servicepack sent to them if they want to carry out the work themself.

[rsterne]

I can add some comments about the bottle version, even though Mike and I haven't discussed his desires (yet).... Most of you will be familiar with my rule of thumb about having 1 cc of plenum volume between the regulator and the valve seat for each FPE you want the gun to produce.... There can be no doubt that having too small a plenum reduces the power, not only from my own experiments, but recently dyotat100 replaced a 1/2 cc per FPE plenum with a tank on his .30 cal Condor, and at the same pressure gained ~ 50 fps, virtually exactly what I predicted would happen.... Here is an example of what happens if the plenum is too small....



Starting with an unregulated MRod tuned to produce 45 FPE at 2000 psi, having a 45 cc plenum loses about 5%, a 23cc plenum about 10%, and an 11 cc plenum about 20%.... To make up for those FPE losses requires an increase in regulator setpoint, but you will still be losing efficiency, and the shot count will suffer as you lose "headroom" (the difference between a full tank and the setpoint pressure).... What does this mean for a .22 or .25 cal regulated bottle version of the Millennium?.... Well, let's look at the popular and accurate JSB Heavy and King pellets at 950 fps.... That is 36 FPE and 51 FPE, requiring that many cc's of plenum.... A full length 2260 tube, which is what I used on my 2260 and 2560 HPAs is 65 cc, which is great for up to .25 cal, and too small if you ever thought of going larger.... My solution was to use a reversed tank block to use the 2260 tube, which produces a gun that looks like this.... 2560 on the top, 2260 on the bottom, the only difference being the tank size, 17 CI vs 13 CI...



If you wanted more than about 65 FPE, (eg. a .25 shooting slugs or a larger caliber).... then even the 2260 tube would not be enough volume.... A full length Disco tube is 135 cc, but then you have the problem of how to mount the tank.... Of course you could also go unregulated, insure that the passages  between tank and valve are large enough, and then you can eliminate the plenum because the entire tank becomes plenum.... I hope this gives you guys something to think about as far as what is and isn't possible for a bottle gun.... Using a QB79 (JDS) style tank block and no plenum volume on a regulated gun will surely disappoint if you are after more than a low-medium power setup....

Bob