*Poll* High Quality 6.35mm Air Rifle - PCP vs Pumper

[rsterne]

All the data on pumping and refilling is in the thread I linked to above.... 80 pumps to fill from empty to 1800 psi (or use a stirrup pump or tank) and then about 11-18 pumps per shot to refill, depending of power level selected.... That's for the .25 cal, the .22 cal would be much fewer pumps per shot....

Bob

[CarsonRatSniper]

Remember that pumping is just ONE option.

With the Foster fill nipple you can attach a remote line to an 1800 psi regged JDS Airman bottle (I hunt like that with my 30 ft lb 2260) or even use CO2 during the summer.

My point is that your not bound to just pumping to shoot the rifle and enjoy it.

[rsterne]

Yep, it's as much a PCP with an onboard pump as a pumper that retains air for an extra shot or two with improved efficiency.... When you are talking about price, consider that in addition to all the parts in a Disco you need a pump arm, linkage, piston, and a check valve.... Then consider that you will be getting an upgraded breech and a much higher quality barrel than what Crosman use.... Even at twice the price of a Disco, it will be less than half the price of an FX Indy....

Besides, you can't take it with you.... the money, that is.... A Millenium Pumper you can, and leave the tank behind if you want to.... *grin*.... When I designed and built mine I had two goals.... One was to show what could be done starting from a Disco and adding an extended billet pump linkage from Mac1, plus a few custom parts.... The other was to hopefully prompt Crosman, or somebody else, to build some as I think they filled a market niche.... small, but there.... I wish Mike and Jim well on their venture and look forward to seeing this dream become reality....

Bob

[Nomadic Pirate]

If you can get a Pumper at 50+ FPE than it would be really interesting

[CarsonRatSniper]

Bobs testing was done with JSB Kings and hit 51 ft lbs...I will tether to my 1800 psi regged JDS 13ci bottle and see what she does with some of my 37's.

Also the .217" barrel with the 1:16 twist was designed by Bob to handle the heaviest .22 pellets - and I'm coming out with .22 Keith SWC soon, so there's going to be LOTS of caliber/bullet weight options.

[TleVta]

I finally got a 4500 tank, and I was almost ready to put my SCUBA tank up for sale. I may have to hold on to it now...

Mike, you are really doing your homework. This project of yours sure looks cool so far. I haven't been interested in buying a pumper until now.

[CarsonRatSniper]

Thanks!
I've hunted with pumpers my whole life since my Daisy 880 when I was 10 years old. I learned to get a little closer to make that one shot count - I became pretty quick at reloading and following up with another shot with only 4 or 5 pumps to get back on target quicker.
I got my first Sheridan .20 cal when I was 12...it took hundreds of pigeons and lots of squirrels and rabbits...I got pretty good shooting it with only 3 or 4 pumps so it wasn't so loud.

I've wanted my own Millenium Pumper since I saw Bobs first 'Show & Tell' on the Green forum. I set out to build my own but I'm no machinist and I couldn't find anybody to do it.

I like my Benji 392 but there's no modularity on parts. Basing this on a Disco with built in Picatinney rails, a removable top end, quick(er) change barrels and (wait for it!)...an actual thread on LDC!!!
All the benefits of Pumper and PCP rolled into one package I'm hoping weighs 6.5 lbs or less.


Fast forward to today...at 44 years old I feel like a little kid waiting for Christmas now that I have a great master machinist that actually has some time to build these guns and the prototypes are being worked on.

Something like the Millenium Pumper isn't just a dream that Bob had...

3 shots @ 40 ft lbs!?! Are you kidding me! I would've been happy with a 30 ft lb round ball shooter!

Yes - the Ultimate Survival Air Rifle
 

[farmerjoe99]

I just had a light bulb moment
$700 sounds like a lot for us budget airgunners(me)
I mean the M-rod is only $500 but in my light bulb moment
I was struck by the obvious...you don't need to buy
a $160-300 pump to shoot this pumper/pcp
maybe I'm just slower than the rest but that makes it
the same cost as a marauder plus pump(or close)
and its self contained,so you will never run out
of air in the field or at the range.
Keep up the good work Mike!

Joseph

[CarsonRatSniper]

!!! EXACTLY !!!

Not to mention the Mrod is not built anywhere even CLOSE to this gun in regards to breech rigidity to the pressure tube, barrel attachment specifications to the breech or barrel stiffness!
And the barrels are Mike Sayers hammer forged barrels - very good quality and very accurate.

 

[vigilandy]

Hey, if the top end will bolt onto a Disco tube....  Does that mean the bottom end will bolt up to a Crosman steel breech?  That would make for an affordable option.   

I voted for a pumper.  Perfect self-contained truck gun!  A .25 pumper @ 40-45fpe would be awesome.

[cclingma]

Wow!  This is awesome.  So glad to see someone pursuing this!

You mention easy barrel swapping.  Do you see yourself providing .22 barrels?  A couple more shots with a few less pumps would be very appealing.

[CarsonRatSniper]

Yep! They will bolt right up to a Disco - either the entire lower or the entire top end.

This started as high quality top ends for Discos, but why stop there?

I've ordered both .25 & .22 barrels for our prototypes so I will have numbers for both calibers.
The rifle will be available in either caliber or both calibers if ordered at the time you order your rifle.

If you choose to buy a second caliber later on we will need your breech for properly indexing the transfer port line up of the breech and barrel port once the barrel is threaded into place.

[D14Jeff]

Uh...the breech alone is $125 and a 24" TJ barrel *blank* (unprepped/unmachined) is $130 after shipping to me...that's $255 and the CF sleeve hasn't even begun yet not to mention the *rest* of the gun 
..........

i think 25-30 FPE for $300ish would sell like hotcakes . if you could make it using the crosman breech , barrel and drop the carbon fiber to save a few hundred bucks i think most folks would still be happy . or maybe do it as a inbetweener once you get your initial version squared away . no disrespect intended .......

[CarsonRatSniper]

We could certainly just convert a stock Disco to a pumper - I have no idea what you'd expect for numbers though.

Maybe I'll convert a .22 Disco just to see where it comes in at...it would at least be a more workable rifle than a Benji 392.

It would ONLY be modifying the wood stock, adding a check valve and pump linkage = no Foster fill nipple or any valve work.

I guess that'd be the 'basement' model.

[dcorvino]

Very interesting.
Can't wait to see how this project develops.
Love the option of either external or internal fill.
And duel caliber option very nice,
Dave

[D14Jeff]

We could certainly just convert a stock Disco to a pumper - I have no idea what you'd expect for numbers though.

Maybe I'll convert a .22 Disco just to see where it comes in at...it would at least be a more workable rifle than a Benji 392.

It would ONLY be modifying the wood stock, adding a check valve and pump linkage = no Foster fill nipple or any valve work.

I guess that'd be the 'basement' model.

basement model sounds sweet  
the 392 ain't what it used to be

[CarsonRatSniper]

Yeah, but the 'basement' model is using whatever you happen to get from Crosman regarding barrels - I might be able to talk Jim into recrowning the barrel.

I can't see why it would have numbers any lower than a factory .22 Disco...

[rsterne]

Even a "basement model" would be quite a different gun than a 392.... The 392 is a "pump and dump" gun, and as such a large percentage of the air you pump into it goes out the barrel after the pellet has left.... The Millennium Pumper from the outset was designed to retain air in the valve like a PCP does, with the valve closing long before the pellet reaches the muzzle.... This conserves air and allows a followup shot, or even up to 3 shots within a very narrow (4%) velocity range, depending on how it is tuned.... The check valve is installed quite a bit in front of the valve, creating a valve chamber of about 28cc (about 1/4 the size of the Disco reservoir), compared with about 4 cc in a 392.... That means a lot more pumps to fill it, of course, but a much more efficient design....

The Disco is a $300 rifle, without the pump, and $479 with it (Crosman list prices).... At the very least, using the Crosman steel breech and stock barrel, you are looking at taking a Disco and ADDING a pump by slotting the tube and drilling additional holes, adding a front pivot mount, a pump linkage, a piston, and a check valve assembly, and cutting and modding the stock into a pump handle.... It is just plain silly to expect that to be done at no cost and suggest a $300 price tag.... Even if Crosman did it, they would have to sell it for significantly more than a Disco.... I think it would be ambitious to expect a "basement model" for less than the price of a Disco with pump, IMO....

The way I designed the gun, I realized that many would not want to pump it 80 times to get that 28cc reservoir to 1800 psi, so I added a Foster so that the gun could be filled from a tank or a stirrup pump.... I modded the valve considerably to get the gun to produce 50+ FPE on 1800 psi.... I also used the Mac1 extended billet pump linkage because it is a LOT stronger than a stock 392 linkage, and longer, enabling easier pumping.... but it ain't cheap (but worth every penny).... My gun had a Crosman breech, modded slightly, and a .25 cal LW barrel.... but using a stiffer Carbon sleeved barrel in a riser breech just makes sense.... It does, of course add to the price.... but IMO the results are worth it.... I also used a Boyd's Blaster stock, but that was just icing on the cake !!!.... Incidently, I sold the prototype for $1000 and after it was sold was offered more to make another (but declined)....

Bob

[CarsonRatSniper]

 

[D14Jeff]

yea , it is a big difference .
could the 2260 be made into a .22 cal. 25+ fpe single shot pumper with 15 pumps or less for $300 -$350ish ?