*Poll* High Quality 6.35mm Air Rifle - PCP vs Pumper

[CarsonRatSniper]

The top ends will be the same - one piece Picatinney railed breech that CF sleeved 9/16" OD barrels thread into with a 1/2x20 threaded muzzle.
Top quality screw on 1.5" OD x 8" long LDC (add on option) - Run your gun 'Loud & Proud' or 'Whisper Quiet'.
Breech will also have a pressure tube band that screws directly into the breech from the bottom, located behind the pressure gauge and also accept a 2nd stock screw so the action is held in place to the stock by 2 screws instead of 1.
Both will be side cockers - separate loading & cocking functions.
Both will have Mrod trigger groups.
Both will have an RVA and accept .360" OD hammer springs up to 2" long.
Both will have interchangeable .22 & .25 caliber barrels/bolts as an option (if purchased at the time of ordering - .250" barrel will be my 1:22" twist and the .22 barrel will be Bob's .217" x 1:16 Twist barrel - both hammer forged TJ barrels from Mike Sayers ).

The PCP barrel will be free floated and the Pumper will have an o ringed (semi float) barrel band at the end of the tube for barrel support during pumping.
The difference is in the powerplants.

The Pumper will be based on Bobs Millennium Pumper and will have a Foster fill port in the left side of the rifle in the gauge port adapter for tethering to a remote line or initially filling via hand pump.
There will be a small reservoir between the check valve and the valve face so the gun can be tuned for 1 or 2 follow up shots.

The PCP will either be bottle fed and regulated with about a 240cc air volume or have a standard Disco pressure tube.

These are literally on the drawing board and prototypes will be built in the next few weeks...I need to know where the most interest is.

Personally I'm leaning towards the Pumper as there just aren't any ultra high quality ones available (especially with a thread on LDC option), easy caliber changes and I like the fact you don't need any support equipment.
It also gives the most options as far as how you'd like to hunt with the rifle.

I have a machinist willing and able to produce all of the above

Thanks for your input!

Mike

[Matt15]

I picked the pumper. Do not have to haul around pcp fill gear and is cheaper.

[Nomadic Pirate]

What power would the pumper be able to get ?

[Matt15]

What power would the pumper be able to get ?

I do not know. I will look and see if I can find something.

[rsterne]

Here is the thread on my Millenium Pumper....  http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39328.

and here are the final tunes in .25 cal....



With Kings that is one shot at 51 FPE, two shots at 45+ FPE, or three shots at 40 FPE, all with a backup.... Only a change in the preload required between the tunes....

Bob

[D14Jeff]

Millennium Pumper !

[CarsonRatSniper]

Wow Bob...this is a landslide right out of the gate for your Millennium Pumper!

 

[rsterne]

(yeah, and I voted for all of the above).... *LOL*.... but actually don't care about the "stock" arrangement, but the bottle gun has a place, and parts are always welcome.... I'd love to see you guys build my Millenium Pumper, that is why it is designed to be simple and have very few custom parts needed....

Bob

[CarsonRatSniper]

HAHAHA! 

My .25 Challenger Double Tube was going to be a Reverse Pumping Millennium with around 160+ cc's of air volume - the 22" long lower pressure tube was going to house the pump assembly and check valve...I just couldn't do it when she hit 70 ft lbs.

[Ribbonstone]

Would be pleased to see the pumper...no competition, would be the only real MSP choice in .25...so I'd like to see that as an offering.  Would appreciate the low end more than the high end, but being a MSP, you can have both.

[Matt15]

The top ends will be the same - one piece Picatinney railed breech that CF sleeved 9/16" OD barrels thread into with a 1/2x20 threaded muzzle.
Top quality screw on 1.5" OD x 8" long LDC (add on option) - Run your gun 'Loud & Proud' or 'Whisper Quiet'.
Breech will also have a pressure tube band that screws directly into the breech from the bottom, located behind the pressure gauge and also accept a 2nd stock screw so the action is held in place to the stock by 2 screws instead of 1.
Both will be side cockers - separate loading & cocking functions.
Both will have Mrod trigger groups.
Both will have an RVA and accept .360" OD hammer springs up to 2" long.
Both will have interchangeable .22 & .25 caliber barrels/bolts as an option (if purchased at the time of ordering - .250" barrel will be my 1:22" twist and the .22 barrel will be Bob's .217" x 1:16 Twist barrel - both hammer forged TJ barrels from Mike Sayers ).

The PCP barrel will be free floated and the Pumper will have an o ringed (semi float) barrel band at the end of the tube for barrel support during pumping.
The difference is in the powerplants.

The Pumper will be based on Bobs Millennium Pumper and will have a Foster fill port in the left side of the rifle in the gauge port adapter for tethering to a remote line or initially filling via hand pump.
There will be a small reservoir between the check valve and the valve face so the gun can be tuned for 1 or 2 follow up shots.

The PCP will either be bottle fed and regulated with about a 240cc air volume or have a standard Disco pressure tube.

These are literally on the drawing board and prototypes will be built in the next few weeks...I need to know where the most interest is.

Personally I'm leaning towards the Pumper as there just aren't any ultra high quality ones available (especially with a thread on LDC option), easy caliber changes and I like the fact you don't need any support equipment.
It also gives the most options as far as how you'd like to hunt with the rifle.

I have a machinist willing and able to produce all of the above

Thanks for your input!

Mike

About how much will the pumper cost?

[Hobbyman2007]

I'd go for the pumper. If you can achieve the same numbers bob did you can count me in.

[CarsonRatSniper]

I honestly have no idea...I'm sitting down with Jim tomorrow morning to hammer out machining time for him and direct material costs.

I can tell you flat out I'm getting $50 to assemble and tune the guns...I can figure materials pretty easily...the only variable is Jim's machine time per gun.

I'm hoping to be around $700 with 1 barrel and no LDC - that is a *COMPLETE* rough guess, so don't hold me to that!
All parts except for a few are modified Crosman factory parts to keep overall build time down - its easier to buy inexpensive parts from Crosman and tweak them to my specs than it is to produce them from scratch.

Keep in mind a Steroided 392 with a Williams peep sight set me back $400 and is nowhere NEAR what this rifle will be.

I promise the price will be as fair as possible to everybody involved.

I will have a price once the first 2 are built in a couple of weeks.

Once that is announced I will take deposits on pre orders for the first official run of guns...the more Jim can machine at one time the easier it is overall and will help final costs...the set up and first ones are always the slowest. I'm hoping that part is hammered out on the prototype builds.

Bobs numbers will be there...he is most certainly involved with these guns - just not directly.

[Matt15]

I honestly have no idea...I'm sitting down with Jim tomorrow morning to hammer out machining time for him and direct material costs.

I can tell you flat out I'm getting $50 to assemble and tune the guns...I can figure materials pretty easily...the only variable is Jim's machine time per gun.

I'm hoping to be around $700 with 1 barrel and no LDC - that is a *COMPLETE* rough guess, so don't hold me to that!
All parts except for a few are modified Crosman factory parts to keep overall build time down - its easier to buy inexpensive parts from Crosman and tweak them to my specs than it is to produce them from scratch.

Keep in mind a Steroided 392 with a Williams peep sight set me back $400 and is nowhere NEAR what this rifle will be.

I promise the price will be as fair as possible to everybody involved.

I will have a price once the first 2 are built in a couple of weeks.

Once that is announced I will take deposits on pre orders for the first official run of guns...the more Jim can machine at one time the easier it is overall and will help final costs...the set up and first ones are always the slowest. I'm hoping that part is hammered out on the prototype builds.

Bobs numbers will be there...he is most certainly involved with these guns - just not directly.

$700  Oh well I was hoping for an affordable (around $150) pumper. I guess I will have to stick to my .25 patriot.

[CarsonRatSniper]

Uh...the breech alone is $125 and a 24" TJ barrel *blank* (unprepped/unmachined) is $130 after shipping to me...that's $255 and the CF sleeve hasn't even begun yet not to mention the *rest* of the gun 

There's already $150 pumpers...Benjamin's 392 and the Webley.

Maybe nobody wants a top shelf pumper because they just go PCP.

However, I see where the cost comes in at completely fair - the next available option is an $1800 Independence.
 

[Laz]

I honestly have no idea...I'm sitting down with Jim tomorrow morning to hammer out machining time for him and direct material costs.

I can tell you flat out I'm getting $50 to assemble and tune the guns...I can figure materials pretty easily...the only variable is Jim's machine time per gun.

I'm hoping to be around $700 with 1 barrel and no LDC - that is a *COMPLETE* rough guess, so don't hold me to that!
All parts except for a few are modified Crosman factory parts to keep overall build time down - its easier to buy inexpensive parts from Crosman and tweak them to my specs than it is to produce them from scratch.

Keep in mind a Steroided 392 with a Williams peep sight set me back $400 and is nowhere NEAR what this rifle will be.

I promise the price will be as fair as possible to everybody involved.

I will have a price once the first 2 are built in a couple of weeks.

Once that is announced I will take deposits on pre orders for the first official run of guns...the more Jim can machine at one time the easier it is overall and will help final costs...the set up and first ones are always the slowest. I'm hoping that part is hammered out on the prototype builds.

Bobs numbers will be there...he is most certainly involved with these guns - just not directly.

$700  Oh well I was hoping for an affordable (around $150) pumper. I guess I will have to stick to my .25 patriot.

  Go buy a 392 or something. $150 isn't much for a good gun. Judging by the materials used, machine time and specs of the gun, $700 sounds good and this will be the first ever quality pumper 

[Matt15]

I honestly have no idea...I'm sitting down with Jim tomorrow morning to hammer out machining time for him and direct material costs.

I can tell you flat out I'm getting $50 to assemble and tune the guns...I can figure materials pretty easily...the only variable is Jim's machine time per gun.

I'm hoping to be around $700 with 1 barrel and no LDC - that is a *COMPLETE* rough guess, so don't hold me to that!
All parts except for a few are modified Crosman factory parts to keep overall build time down - its easier to buy inexpensive parts from Crosman and tweak them to my specs than it is to produce them from scratch.

Keep in mind a Steroided 392 with a Williams peep sight set me back $400 and is nowhere NEAR what this rifle will be.

I promise the price will be as fair as possible to everybody involved.

I will have a price once the first 2 are built in a couple of weeks.

Once that is announced I will take deposits on pre orders for the first official run of guns...the more Jim can machine at one time the easier it is overall and will help final costs...the set up and first ones are always the slowest. I'm hoping that part is hammered out on the prototype builds.

Bobs numbers will be there...he is most certainly involved with these guns - just not directly.

$700  Oh well I was hoping for an affordable (around $150) pumper. I guess I will have to stick to my .25 patriot.

  Go buy a 392 or something. $150 isn't much for a good gun. Judging by the materials used, machine time and specs of the gun, $700 sounds good and this will be the first ever quality pumper 

I did not think of that.

[farmerjoe99]

Wow! I'm really looking forward to seeing what you have up
your sleeve I think it would be awesome if you could
put the Millennium Pumper into production and while I agree
$700 is fair I wonder if there is a way to make a economy model for
more like $350-500?(maybe a bare action if that would lower costs?)
what stock are you going to use?looking forward to see how
this progresses

Bob: how many pumps to get those results?

Joseph

[CarsonRatSniper]

We are just using a modified factory Disco stock to keep cost & weight down...the entire lower half of the rifle could certainly be purchased separately and you could bolt your own top end on it.

I will have full details and prices on options soon.

*edit* Some points I'd like to add about our top end - the only way you're going to even come close to something like it is on a RAW or Daystate...ours might even beat THEM out!

The .25 barrel is 9/16" OD with bushings then 1/16" walled CF sleeved for an OD of .750".
The .22 barrel is 1/2" OD - are you ready for this? Bushings added, sleeved in .625" OD 6061 T6 aluminum which will then also be sleeved in 1/16" walled CF for a .750" OD!!!

That's not where it ends...the TP area of the barrel will be turned to about .550" OD, then 1.5" of 9/16" threading to secure it to the breech - the breech will have a 1" deep recess @ .7505" that the barrels seats into and seats in tension against - there will be one 8-32 grub screw in the too of the breech just to make sure it doesn't shoot loose from the breech.
Also - the steel barrel band that directly fastens the pressure tube to the breech AND adds a second action screw for the stock.

I challenge any other air gun top end anywhere to say they are made this stout with this stiff if a barrel...and were going to try and hit a base price if $700.

C'mon Guys...*WHERE* is there an AG made to this kind of spec?

    

[Rescue35]

I say pumper. It would be the ultimate teotwawki survival rifle.