detuning magnum springers to medium power ???

[D14Jeff]

FWIU given the SAME or very similar FPE power plant ... the heavier a springer/break barrel pellet gun is the less recoil is a factor ... typically ..... but not written in stone .
and FWIU wood stocks typically mitigate recoil better than plastic ones .

with those thoughts in mind ..... will taking magnum metal spring air guns guns like the xs28m , rws 350 and hatsan 135 in .22 cal. and cutting enough coils off the spring to get them down to 700 to 800 FPS (similar to their smaller xs25 , rws 34 and hatsan 95 siblings in .22 cal.) allow them to generate less recoil and be less hold sensitive ? i really want to try a springer again , i tried a trail NP all weather a few years ago for a week and took it back because i just couldn't get good accuracy from it ... probably due to the recoil . it was also very very front heavy and that made it feel very awkward to hold IMO . my thinking is detuning a magnum wood stocked springer would help with both the balance a whole lot and and reduce the recoil to make a easier learning curve learning to shoot it . am i onto something here ? or am i simply wrong ? i think it would also be pretty cool that when i do master shooting it (aka the artillery hold) that a simple $20ish dollar spring will give me the chance to make a significant jump in power/shooting distance if i have the space or desire to .

all thoughts/suggestions are appreciated .

[ptpalpha]

Short answer: yes.  If you take an XS28 for example, remove the oem spring, replace it with a softer spring of the same o.d., you will experience a decrease in fps, fpe, and perceived recoil.
To do this you'll need to determine the wire diameter of the oem spring (probably .128), set length, and i.d. and o.d.
Replace it with one that has a smaller wire diameter (like .120), same or slightly shorter set length, and same i.d. so you can use the oem guides.
Another way is to remove a coil or two from the oem spring, and make tight fitting delrin spring guide and tophat.  Remove the oem metal spring sleeve and replace it with one made from HDPE (or use the plastic "coke bottle" method).
Make sure to use quality lube products (i.e. Maccari) and give the spring a light coating of heavy tar.
I seem to remember that Vortek offered a "soft tune" spring for the XS28/RWS 350 that gave the performance you're describing.  Might be worth shooting an email to Tom at Vortek.

[TC]

Detuned a Stoeger X20S from 15+ to 12+ foot pounds for improved bench resting precision. Lost 20% in fps but did indeed achieve less shot action and hold sensitivity. More precise at 40 yards with less power. This was accomplished by using a stock spring and cutting off a few loops at a time until I reached ~12 foot pounds. Next I will try a non stock spring made from thinner wire (.120" vs .128") to see if it is possible to settle it down even more. Why wouldn't similar physics to apply in your situation (magnum to a medium)?

[lillysdad621]

they do, but you may also try to find a better suited pellet weight for the spring you got... IE. i got a big cat over the weekend (freebie) that i lube tuned and was at the end shooting 7.9 CPhp at 860 fps... i tried to shoot 10.5 and they only went 715 fps... that is a huge drop... that was after a lube tune and a entire clean up. gun shot a lot smoother with the heavies and it groups much better (.466) at 20 yards. The spring i put on was an older vortek spring that i had laying around... a bit shorter than the original... but the wire seemed wider... I am happy to shoot this gun at 11.8 fpe...

[AudiS4]

The XS28, is already at the same power level as the 95, so the only magnum is the 135 of your selection.

If you need to alter a magnum, then you can already get a medium powered gun from the get go, and then you are down to about 20-25 fpe. That is where the XS28 and a Hatsan 95 are as standard. 135 is 30+ fpe. Just tune a 95, and get a Vortex piston, then you´ll have a 20+ fpe gun, that is smooth and accurate, and doesn´t weigh as much as the XS28 and 135.

[Petey]

Do IT! it's worth it .....but knocking one or two coils off the spring wont' do much....4 and proper fitting guide will get you in you in the neighborhood....or get Tom at Vortek or JM to make you a 12 pound kit...

I have a JM custom 12 pound kit in my 48...love it.

[LAalex]

Do IT! it's worth it .....but knocking one or two coils off the spring wont' do much....4 and proper fitting guide will get you in you in the neighborhood....or get Tom at Vortek or JM to make you a 12 pound kit...

I have a JM custom 12 pound kit in my 48...love it.

This is where I would go.

Scotty

[angrytimes]

conservation of momentum. decrease the velocity or increase the mass and it will kick less.

[lillysdad621]

a 48 in 12 fpe... that must be heaven... i like short heavy rifles in 12 fpe... they shoot so well

[angrytimes]

I dont really get what the deal is with magnums though... I have only shot a few air guns (gamo big cat, cfr, cfr igt, tx200 and diana 52) and my mates 52 is just as easy to use as my tx200. We were both hitting a plastic bottle at 100m (prone) and swapping guns and I couldn't even really notice any more recoil as my set up is slightly heavier. His 52 is no doubt more powerful than my gun but it does not seem harder to shoot with

[lillysdad621]

the deal is when you split the skull on a 28 lb raccoon at 40 yards and it just stops moving... 1 shot. (2007, theoben eliminator, .22 cal kodiak, about 840 fps for a sweet, unadultered and very civilized 33 fpe.). sometimes it is absolutely necessary. when you can get a gun that is sorted and pushes over 25 fpe, its nice... otherwise they are vibration monsters...

[Petey]

the deal is when you split the skull on a 28 lb raccoon at 40 yards and it just stops moving... 1 shot. (2007, theoben eliminator, .22 cal kodiak, about 840 fps for a sweet, unadultered and very civilized 33 fpe.). sometimes it is absolutely necessary. when you can get a gun that is sorted and pushes over 25 fpe, its nice... otherwise they are vibration monsters...

 LMBO! ....LOVE IT!

I have two set ups for my 48.. the JM soft kit and one I made myself that shoots JSB 8.44 at 985 and is smooth as heck. Best thing is I can swap kits on a whim and takes maybe 20 minutes to do so....48s are a great thing .

Happy Shootin To All!
Petey.

[mista meener]

the deal is when you split the skull on a 28 lb raccoon at 40 yards and it just stops moving... 1 shot. (2007, theoben eliminator, .22 cal kodiak, about 840 fps for a sweet, unadultered and very civilized 33 fpe.). sometimes it is absolutely necessary. when you can get a gun that is sorted and pushes over 25 fpe, its nice... otherwise they are vibration monsters...

What an accomplishment. To me all springers have one way they like to be held magnum or not. if you want a springer that shoots a certain velocity just buy one. many shoot 550-700 fps or slower or faster. easy to pick one. why buy a magnum and detune it?

[Dick Tracey]

I know you are talking about Springers here, but my thought would be to get a 135 with Vortex gas ram.  I believe you can change the pressure in the ram.  That way you can tune to what ever level energy you want and don't have to mess with springs.

DT

[Petey]

the deal is when you split the skull on a 28 lb raccoon at 40 yards and it just stops moving... 1 shot. (2007, theoben eliminator, .22 cal kodiak, about 840 fps for a sweet, unadultered and very civilized 33 fpe.). sometimes it is absolutely necessary. when you can get a gun that is sorted and pushes over 25 fpe, its nice... otherwise they are vibration monsters...

What an accomplishment. To me all springers have one way they like to be held magnum or not. if you want a springer that shoots a certain velocity just buy one. many shoot 550-700 fps or slower or faster. easy to pick one. why buy a magnum and detune it?

You have much to learn Grasshopper.
Denying yourself the pleasure of ownership simply because an AG has more power than you need is senseless.  Simply de-tune and enjoy many hours of pleasure.........learning how to tune has many benefits.
Don't get caught up in the power game........a sub 12 pound gun can do many things very well....taking a magnum and  taming it is good thing.
 Those who have traveled the path understand.
Happy Shootin!
Petey

[angrytimes]

you misunderstand me. I mean what is the deal with them being difficult to shoot? I get that more power = more killing ability but I did not think the 52 was any harder to shoot than the tx. In saying that my tx will put a pellet through a sheep skull at 40m (tested bounced off and just cracked it at 45) so I do not think that a few extra fpe is a big deal. especially when there is this thing called a firearm. 15fpe, 20 fpe, 30 fpe, 2000fpe...

[D14Jeff]

I have two set ups for my 48.. the JM soft kit and one I made myself that shoots JSB 8.44 at 985 and is smooth as heck. Best thing is I can swap kits on a whim and takes maybe 20 minutes to do so....48s are a great thing .

good to read
i'm just thinking about ways to insure that if i get a springer that i'll enjoy it and won't have buyers remorse like i did with the trail NP all-weather i tried . i'm not worried about weight or the length of the airgun cause i don't hunt . my little DBO/2289 is fine for annoying birds and with it's mods will be plenty for rabbits or squirrels if i did want to hunt . i keep wanting to try something different , PCP is too expensive and i don't care for the temp issues Co2 has .... so that leaves break barrels and under/side levers . i'm scared of under/side levers because i've seen a few very nasty pics of fingers mauled by them ! i know it's very very rare but (for myself) i feel it's a unnecessary risk .

i should probably just get a cheap wood airhawk or refurb 95 or a xs25 from MM ... but that 135 is just BEAUTIFUL with its turkish walnut stock ! and it's made with a better grade of steel plus the quattro trigger is supposed to be very good with the addition of longer adjustment screws . i'm prone to over think things sometimes and it get's me into analysis paralysis . i can't get anything for a few months anyhow so i've got plenty of time to muddle my way through it .

i thought i'd be satisfied with just my pumper , but i want something different and the pumping does get old/tiring at times . at some point i'll post to see if someone in my area would let me watch them tune a break barrel or two if i bring a few 6 packs of their prefered brew for putting up with me , hehe . i love to tinker and even though i think my reading comprehension is at least average , seeing something with my own eyes instills more confidence to do something . i'm thinking that getting a BIG springer and detuning it gives me a better chance at shooting accurately and being more comfortable with it ...... and getting a full power spring later to see how i like it . the equipment to change a vortex gas ram cost too much , a extra spring (or two) and some tar is much cheaper . a spring compressor is cheap and easy to make with a big C-clamp and some 2x4s .

sorry if i'm a pain in the butt , but i am what i am
and thanks for all the replies

did i mention that the 135 is absolutely beautiful !!!

[mista meener]

the deal is when you split the skull on a 28 lb raccoon at 40 yards and it just stops moving... 1 shot. (2007, theoben eliminator, .22 cal kodiak, about 840 fps for a sweet, unadultered and very civilized 33 fpe.). sometimes it is absolutely necessary. when you can get a gun that is sorted and pushes over 25 fpe, its nice... otherwise they are vibration monsters...

What an accomplishment. To me all springers have one way they like to be held magnum or not. if you want a springer that shoots a certain velocity just buy one. many shoot 550-700 fps or slower or faster. easy to pick one. why buy a magnum and detune it?

You have much to learn Grasshopper.
Denying yourself the pleasure of ownership simply because an AG has more power than you need is senseless.  Simply de-tune and enjoy many hours of pleasure.........learning how to tune has many benefits.
Don't get caught up in the power game........a sub 12 pound gun can do many things very well....taking a magnum and  taming it is good thing.
 Those who have traveled the path understand.
Happy Shootin!
Petey

Again why buy a magnum rifle so you can go thru the trouble and work to detune it when you can buy a German rifle that shoots at the desired detuned level out of the box. if you do not want magnum velocity don't buy a magnum

[Paul68]

Keep in mind, the big magnums also have heavier piston assemblies, so even though you lower the spring power and get the gun putting out FPE similar to its little brothers and sisters, it will still have more recoil even with the slightly heavier body. Springers are a balancing act, and everything is built to work as a part of the whole. The better route is to put that effort into smoothing and tuning. I've had many big springers, and I treat em just like their smaller siblings; if they cant do a dime or better at 25 yards, they need work. I've had the magnums doing under an inch at 50 yards, so to me, reducing the power in one is really counterproductive and taking away from the potential the gun was designed to provide in the first place. Just get a gun already at the power level you want, and choose a model with  a rep for accuracy. The 48's and 52's for instance are perfect candidates. Powerful, low hold sensitivity, and very very accurate.

[mista meener]

Keep in mind, the big magnums also have heavier piston assemblies, so even though you lower the spring power and get the gun putting out FPE similar to its little brothers and sisters, it will still have more recoil even with the slightly heavier body. Springers are a balancing act, and everything is built to work as a part of the whole. The better route is to put that effort into smoothing and tuning. I've had many big springers, and I treat em just like their smaller siblings; if they cant do a dime or better at 25 yards, they need work. I've had the magnums doing under an inch at 50 yards, so to me, reducing the power in one is really counterproductive and taking away from the potential the gun was designed to provide in the first place. Just get a gun already at the power level you want, and choose a model with  a rep for accuracy. The 48's and 52's for instance are perfect candidates. Powerful, low hold sensitivity, and very very accurate.

does that rws 350 shoot 1/2 inch at 50 yds? that is PCP accuracy. plus detuning a magnum rifle you end up with a heavy 12 fpe rifle when there are many very accurate springers stock that are lighter and  at 12-15 fpe. it is like turning 4 wheel drive truck into 2 wheel drive